Sedona sweetheart you are a frequent poster on these boards and your posts are almost without exception well thought out and often thought provoking.
I agree with the gist of your post here. You have reviews that attest to the high esteem in which you are held by those who have delighted in your company.
Where perhaps you went a bit over the top was with: "It appears you have a case of "I" trouble..."
I believe IW was referring primarily to a specific instance of an actual date. I personally would not have been so self absorbed as to say to my date "I don't open doors". Good old common decency and common courtesy still counts with me.
Even in a provider/client "date" I would still extend simple courtesies such as opening a door etc and to do so would not detract in anyway from the experience for me but rather enhance it.
I believe from some previous communication we have had that you and I see things in a similar way. I understand your striving to provide the best (courtesan) experience for those you are with and you do so very well by your reviews. Even so I would open the door for you and not feel as if I had been dprived of being the center of attention for having done so.
Just a thought from someone who respects women and values them in my life.
Ok, so I'm sooooooooooooooooo far out of the dating scene that I don't even want to date anymore, but I did *try* once earlier this summer. He picked me up. We walked outside. He went to his side of the car. I looked at him, and very gently said, "You're forgetting a very important part of the date." He turns and says, "Oh, I don't open car doors." I said, "Ok, have a great evening." I walked back up my stairs, called my girlfriends to pick me up, and haven't attempted dating since. Honestly, I was shocked that a guy wouldn't open my car door on a *first* date. What would you ladies have done? Men, do you open car doors on first dates? Ya'll better lie to me if you don't
And by the way, I am NOT the princess type who expects my ass to be kissed, but I do expect to be treated nicely by men in my professional, and especially, in my personal life. I know there are lots of providers who are married or otherwise involved, but are there any who are young and single and try to date while in this profession? Sometimes I think I was born in the wrong generation, because I'm so old fashioned regarding courtship.
Funny, I don't place any expectations - they simply fill them. Willingly. It's easy to sense someone's attitude - as if it's 'in the air'. Maybe they sense MY willingness to please them, MY delight with THEIR company, and they can't go out of their way fast enough. And, I love them for it.
Courtesan..one whose time spent revolves around HIM. It appears you have a case of "I" trouble...
Sedona sweetheart you are a frequent poster on these boards and your posts are almost without exception well thought out and often thought provoking.
I agree with the gist of your post here. You have reviews that attest to the high esteem in which you are held by those who have delighted in your company.
Where perhaps you went a bit over the top was with: "It appears you have a case of "I" trouble..."
I believe IW was referring primarily to a specific instance of an actual date. I personally would not have been so self absorbed as to say to my date "I don't open doors". Good old common decency and common courtesy still counts with me.
Even in a provider/client "date" I would still extend simple courtesies such as opening a door etc and to do so would not detract in anyway from the experience for me but rather enhance it.
I believe from some previous communication we have had that you and I see things in a similar way. I understand your striving to provide the best (courtesan) experience for those you are with and you do so very well by your reviews. Even so I would open the door for you and not feel as if I had been dprived of being the center of attention for having done so.
Just a thought from someone who respects women and values them in my life.
Thank you for saying that Sedona. If a woman gives off an arrogant or feminist air the desire to be chivalrus is killed. If the slightest effort is made to value me or my needs then as you said I'll be going out of my way to please at an accelerated rate. It's a two way street. If a woman wishes to be treated as a lady she need only value her gentelman.
Perhaps you misunderstood my post, but I am NOT a courtesan 24/7. I'm a courtesan a few hours a week when I'm being paid by a client, but in my personal life, my time with a man does NOT revolve around either one of us. The date I mentioned was a normal single girl kind of date, and I'm not willing to kiss anyone's ass when I'm not working. In fact, my boyfriends have neven known what I do, and they never will.
you... hell, I would even kiss your ass and we might both enjoy it! But I don't think you are wrong expecting certain level of chivalry from a guy. I certainly expect to do that for my lady.
you went off and eloped with this "undercover" guy whoever he is (cuz that ain't me honey!) ... but then you seem to have so many admirers on this board
my big "gorilla brain" doesn't know to trust you anymore [sniff]
Nothing wrong with you! I commend you!!! Furthermore, you sounded very classy in your cuing to him of your comfort zone (communication, and in a nice way). The fact that he blatently refused to relent in consideration to you, leads me to believe that the rest of the evening could only go downhill unless you chose to lower your standards. (My way or the highway, I don't do doors, lol) Not a good start.
There are still enough INTELLIGENT men around to know that they would have a more "successful" date by treating a lady with some value -
Myself, having accommodated any number of *monkeys and their monkeyshines, I am over it. Now I certainly do wait for the car door to be opened by the gentleman who picks me up...client or not. If a gentleman who pays me for my company has the class and self respect to treat me like a lady (and they do) then who is this date person to get off scott free from acting like a gentleman? Why would a man who pays have to act more respectful? I dont think so. And I'd really like to understand just how your date would justify what he expects at the end of the date?
Good Girl. You gave him Das Boot. And, accolades to the Wellmannered Gentleman!
*Disclaimer to having been a monkey from time to time.
Oh, Felicia...you're a dollbaby You brought up a very, very interesting point that I've pondered time to time. Why would a man who pays have to act more respectful? Like you said, you expect to be treated nicely - paid or unpaid. It's so strange how my clients will, for the most part, bend over backwards to make me happy. They open my doors, bring me flowers, do silly little romantic things, and other simple actions that are so very thoughtful and sweet. It's so strange to have clients who pay for my time to be incredibly kind, yet a man who dates me gratis won't even open the door.
Believe it or not, I dated a couple of males, for lack of a better word, each of whom I told should hire a high class escort so as to learn how to treat a lady. (At each point in the "relationship" I was tired of monkeyshines.) Hopefully, either of these men could be inspired to upgrade if they found it rewarding enough. Hrrrmph, was the reply in both cases. Each one is still around being macho, and baffled at the treatment he gets in response to his actions.
I'm curious if sometimes people treat things with more value when they must pay ... yet, I'd hate to leave it just at that. There are gentlemen who go beyond just good behavior, some men are genuinely in love with women, and want to treat them well. I opt for those. They are worth the wait, in my estimation. Anyway, being half spanish and half italian, I've been on overload with the macho thing from when I can remember...
And, interesting woman, if you open my door, I will be happy to walk though it, wink at you, thank you, and offer you a glass of merlot, and a soft comfortable seat.
And for those on the receiving end, courtesies are indeed a joy to receive, but only when recognized and appreciated.
Unfortunately, I do believe that many people think that rude is the "cool" thing, and because of that, sell themselves short and/or just no longer feel that it's worth it to make the effort. Too bad. Making the effort does take effort, but it is worth it.
You mean pushing the button on the keychain that unlocks the door is not consided proper? It is amazing how the "first date rule" seems to fly out the window so soon and we all fall into habit. I guess men should remember that we are really Women and we should all quit wearing flannel to bed. Fair trade if you ask me.
I find hobbiests to be sooooo much more respectful and kind than their civilian counterparts. That was a real eye opener for me. I no longer date outside the hobby for that very reason.
shine baby shine! ... don't forget, that monkey can bang out Hamlet on a typewriter given enough time. let's see Virgina Wolf do that!
let's face it chivalry is dead ... if it wasn't, then all those civilians we opened doors for and gave up our subway seats to would have paid us back in nookie and we wouldn't be here trying to "pay for it" like bunch of losers
i think calling my future ex-wife "Princess I-dub of the Planet Librarian" has gone to her pretty little Barbie(TM) head!
remember guys, our brains are BIGGER (sure we'd trade that in for a bigger schlong anyday, but hey what are you gonna do) and i for one feel, no i THINK, that surely that entitles us to something better (just what exactly i haven't been able to figure out yet)
in the meantime don't let this new breed of feminist provider deprive you of your god-given right to not treat them well in order to not get a decent session back in return ... stick with the program, what's known to not work. if we have to pay for it we might as well botch this us as well
afterall that's what we do best ... we're MEN ... damn it!
Some of women/providers have met some very very demanding and selfish men (not that there aren't corresponding attitudes in women), and so we just decide not to be doormats (either sex), but being a provider has little to do with being a doormat unless that is how the woman sees herself.
Now for your future ex-wife, I cannot speak for her.... )
And thank God for testosterone, else we might not have the pyramids as we know them. Now I like my pyramid protuding from under the sheets.....traded your brain in, you say??
You acted appropriately. Heck, a wise gentleman will open the lady's car door then take note on whether she is willing to lean over and unlock his door or not. It sounds to me like you saved yourself a lot of hassle by being up front and then sticking to your guns.
doors for ANYONE. Men and women alike. (Well, men can open their own car doors). I have always been surprised how often little old ladies will compliment me for opening, or holding open doors. It just feels like the right thing to do.
The first time I went on a "date" with a provider friend I was not sure. Wondering if maybe she was some sort of 90's woman and would take offense. She did'nt. We still "date". I still open her door.
Good for you! I love receiving that luxury. Being a ballroom dancer, I've truly come to love being allowed the ease of being graceful, not struggling to push heavy (or light) doors open. I appreciate the joy of walking through a door like Ginger Rogers. (Yes, I can be delusional at times...)
Here is the story but I'll deny it in public...I was on a date, yes I opened her car door AND walked along the sidewalk on the traffic side to protect her from errant drivers...I was new again to dating and tried to remember all(well, not all-wink wink)the ways my old grandpappy told me to treat a lady. So far so good. As we approached the theatre,(yes live theatre, not a movie)I spied the lobby and door ahead and reminded myself to open the door for her..what I didnt see was the "wall" of glass that preceded the lobby; I walked full on SMACK into the wall of glass. All sense of chivalry disappeared as the wall shook from the impact and the other patrons entering the theatre stopped, giggled under their breath, as the time froze for what seemed like a lifetime...but low and behold...my date rose to the occasion and recognized my pitiful attempts to reestablish the fact that chivalry is not dead but has merely been taking a snooze(I think snoozing since Anita Bryant sold OJ) She gracefully and quite elegantly I might add, continued on as if nothing had happened, sliding her arm into mine as we walked into the lobby. We enjoyed the play, drinks and dancing after and had a wonderful evening. I kissed her gently on the cheek after I walked her to her door and parted with a smile. I went home and regauzed my bruised nose and ego. By the way, on our next date she grabbed me by the hand when I walked in her door and prodeeded to treat me to the spoils of chivalry. hehehehe Long live chivalry!!!![EOM]
Here's the problem with that guy, I would bet that at one time he was a door opening kind of guy, then someone hurt his feelings and he decided to never be totally nice again. I have heard this same story countless times. In fact you are doing the exact same thing by refusing to date. In other words you are saying, "I was hurt so I will be less giving and never get hurt again." People are so silly! Be kind and open to people and you never really lose.
I was taught to hold doors for women and the elderly. To walk on the streetside of side walks. To offer a seat in public and private places to women, children and the elderly. To always say 'please' and 'thank you'. Never to take the last piece of anything and the list goes on and on. When you were young and forgot, you could expect a bat on the head or hand to remind you that you were raised with manners. As you grew older it was the cough and dirty look from your parent when you were lax.
The feminists in the 70's beat down most of my training. I used to get lectures and even screamed at when I opened and held a door. Ridiculed for offerring a place to sit or show any consideration at all. These traits had been so deeply ingrained it took years to undo.
The end of the 80's showed a renewed interest in manners and etiquette. Now it is not uncommon to hold the door for anybody. You can here 'please' and 'thank you ' from people that do not work in retail. Women are pleased when you go out of your way to be courteous and express it. I am glad to see some of the old courtesies returning. It makes the little things in life go by so much more pleasantly.
Yep If you expected it, you would have been a royal pain in the ass had the dating gone on to a second or third date.
Choosing to open the door is a courtesy on the gents part, if you are offended that he didn't you were not a good match from the start.
Was your arm broken? How bad can it be to open the door yourself? You want the old fashioned courtesy then you get to do all the cooking and cleaning and the other stuff that goes with the era. You can't EXPECT it to be both ways. If you act like a helpless women of the 40's then you get a man from the 40's who is the boss, makes all the decisions and you go along and keep quiet, like it or not.
This is womans lib pure and simple. If you want to be treated equal the equal it is. Would you open the door for him?
The problem isn't one of courtesy, it's one of expectations.
You're probably expecting me to come back at you with this post, but, hopefully, I'll surprise the socks off of ya and tell you that I actually APPRECIATE your post in more ways than one, which I fully can't go into here. One of the best conversations I've ever had on this topic was with Mr. Freedomrider, actually. I think in that one conversation we resolved all the generational/gender issues and 'figured it all out' perfectly! *smile* One might have to look through what you 'said' to get to what you mean, but I understand and can appreciate it quite well, no matter.
And, with pleasure, I open the (store-front) doors for everyone: men, women, children alike..
I agree with Yuckie Personally, I'd have opened the door. But the thing that got me was that within the first 5 minutes of a date, you were telling him how to date you. You did him a favor.
In your pumps, I would have merely NOTED an action that didn't fit my expectations and seen how the rest of the evening developed. Perhaps this was one of THE greatest guys on the planet ... but MERELY didn't open doors? Perhaps the last girl he dated gave him a ration for treating her like a fragile little thing. What would it have hurt you to have just had the experince of the night out rather than trying to control such a petty aspect of life?
The biggest problem I witness in the dating scene is people who have a "shopping list" of what the other person MUST be in order to make them happy ... rather than just experiencing them ... who and WHAT they are ... and then ... looking at ALL their traits as possibilities and potential.
Holding open doors is nice, but it does not in any way, shape or form define "Gentleman". I consider myself to be one, and I seriously doubt that any lady I have ever dated, or just met, in or out of the hobby, would contest that statement.
There are times that I do open a car door for a woman. Big deal. If that was all to what makes a Gentleman, then we guys would all be in trouble from time to time. Either that, or we'd learn to do it and fail in every other way. The fact is that many of us are and many of us are not Gentlemen. Just like may women out there are truly "ladies" and some are not.
Here's what makes a guy a "Gentleman": RESPECT and CONSIDERATION
You need to treat the lady you're dating with the same respect that you expect in return. It goes much farther than the car door. It goes to enjoying her company, treating her on the same intellectual and emotional level as you yourself would expect from her, showing her such courtesies as listening attentively to what she has to say, and providing a comfort level that makes her know that she is safe in your company. I could go on and on but you all get the drift. And not one of these things has anything to do with opening a car door.
Megapig, certainly one of the more direct, intelligent and humorous (at the right times) posters here got it right. You didn't give this guy a chance. You merely did him a favor by bailing out of the date. And the most operative word in his post to which I am responding is "petty". And that word does not exist in any definition I know of "Gentleman", or "Lady".
I'm an old school kind of guy so most likely that door would have been opened by me...but times have certainly changed as well as expectations that the sexes have for each other. What happened before that point? THEREIN lies what may have really happened.
I'm sure there was plenty going on up to then...introductions,flowers(or whatever),small talk, breaking the ice with a joke or 2,a quick cocktail,facial gestures and other body language...the list goes on and on... and then of course...physical attraction or nottt! starts to take shape...So maybe it was an excuse for one of the following that occured girls: He previously called to tell you he'll pick you up, just as soon as the stand off with the police is over.
His breath smells like horse shit or his pants have some funky brown stains where the sun don't shine.
He seems to know an awful lot about your shower routine.
He twitches uncontrollably then when you ask what's wrong he doesn't know what your talking about.
You find out your dinner reservations are under "Loser, party of 2"
He's especially proud of how long he can sustain a belch after the first glass of bubbly.
You've never heard someone speak with such passion about an ant farm after your first hellos.
you just found out He's been on Geraldo once and Jerry Springer, twice
Guys: Not only is she a little young, but you're sure that you used to date her mother.
You just find out her real name is Vinnie, and you used to play little league with her.
She has a thicker moustache than you.
When you go to pick her up, her lawyer meets you at the door with a contract describing your duties and restrictions. You jokingly ask her if she wants to go to Vegas and get married. She then informs you that leaving the state is a violation of her parole.
Her bra and panties are wired to an alarm system.
You walk away from her front door with the roses you got her shoved up your ass.
You are the first guy that she's gone out with that isn't her cousin.
She is better hung than you
She keeps calling you "Bachelor Number Two".
She transitions the initial conversation by saying "I've said enough about me. What do you think about me?"
Sorry! The moving finger having writ & hit send (premature dissemination! Sorry you had to learn about my little problem here!)...cannot retract or delete a word of it!
Either your a Gentleman or not. Fortunatly for me I was raised to respect women (Italian household minus the machismo). It was burned into my soul (also Catholic...ha ha)that a man should treat a lady right, even strangers you dont know. I must assure you Chivalry is not dead. I like doing stuff like that for the women I date. Funny thing is it always catches them off guard when I do it. You did the right thing by bolting though, if someone is not up to your standards - see ya! Plus some people just have no class...
Frankly, the guy was a Jerk! I open the door for EVERY woman who rides in my car; that includes Providers. Actually, I go out of my way to open the car door for a Provider. Sometimes, I have to race around to the other side of the car to beat the lady from opening the door for herself. This is an on-going joke between one well known PS whom I've seen regularly. I think she was shocked when I did this on our first date. Of course, the result was: she immediately classified me as a Gentleman. That's not such a bad designation, guys.
Guys, Open the car door, the hotel door, the dining room door, the theater door. It is simply a sign of Respect.
of being a gentleman, the reality is that there are many attributes required to fulfill that role. Personally, opening a door for a woman (or a man), is a unique act which, deep down, we hope will kindle some mutual meeting point (it doesn't have to be sexual, but it might be friendly). I like to treat women well, but too many have given me dirty looks (it's the truth!!!) and other such nice acts. I do not wish to treat a woman as a lady if she does not act as one. So, that leaves me with trying to establish whether a lady is a lady just from her demeanor! - certainly an unenviable task!!! I know I'm rambling, but there can be a lot of good will in the air when we do such small things for each other, BTW - does anyone know the origin of having men walk streetside? (Answer: to handle the brunt of the "crap" that's been tossed out the window, since toilets hadn't been invented yet!!!)
I haven't had a "real date" in quite awhile as well and I gave it a try not to long ago. I ran into an old friend, who I hadn't seen since my dancing days. We exchanged numbers and agreed to get together. The first date was OK nothing great. I had to drive to his house, then we took my car to a hole in the wall Chinese restaurant. Then to Block Buster to get a movie and then back to his house. During trying to watch the movie his hands where all over me. After the movie I got up said good night and went home. I didn't hear from him for almost two weeks. Finally he called and left a message apologizing for not calling sooner, would like to get together soon, and this time could he please have a massage. I still haven't called him back.
let's see now...Let's make it fun...with me of course...I'd pick you up right on time, fresh as a daisy I might add and quite dapper...in addition to the Bouquet of flowers, I'd bring a bottle of champagne ...After exchanging some pleasantries and I'm sure some compliments to you on how ravishing you look, I'd break the ice with a good timely joke...a bit of champagne.... a few more laughs... Then being the perfect gentleman I am....ALL DOORS WILL BE OPENED BY ME...throughout the evening(NO EXCEPTIONS)
...We drive off to a nice quiet,romantic Italian restaurant.... a great relaxed meal...more laughs...some vino...Wow!...how gorgeous you look...then its back to your place for a special treat....A surprise movie...a classic in DVD...."the opening of misty beethoven"....We watch the movie in its entirety but not all at once.......an intermission that is PAR excellence'... as the movie plays on...I'm kinda whispering semi-sweet nothings in your ear or thereabouts....and then without a moment's notice...
to be continued.
Sorry...you know how these new season premiers are...gotta wait til next week to check out the good stuff.
That's very nice, but the part about "YOUR HANDS,YOUR FACE,YOUR LIPS.... ARE ALL OVER ME ...YOU CAN'T KEEP YOUR HANDS OFF ME THE REST OF THE EVENING...what do you think I'm going to do? ...just sit there"!
This was not business, this was social. I don't like being hustled and groped. This guy was only looking to get laid, where I was hoping to maybe establish a relationship. Call me prude but I don't fuck on the first date in a social situation. I have a lot more to offer than just sex and if someone can't see that, then they are not the caliber of gentleman who's company I enjoy and it's time to move on. Don't get me wrong I enjoy sex very much, but I'm not easy and don't give it away to someone undeserving
while I have had respect for women and opened doors being the considerate gentleman I am, some women have gone a little far and EXPECTED they be treated that way with NO consideration being shown in return. if I open a door, I expect a woman to be thoughtful and act as if she is appreciative NOT deserving of the kind act! yes, I have not held doors for woman that have shown lack of respect to me, the door swings both ways.
as for providers dating "off the clock" how can they really distinguish between the two? they are so used to being pampered, wouldn't it seem as though their expectations are set in that way too high "I am the woman, do for me" mode? I personally don't think I could date a provider "off the clock" because she would expect way too much.
I can relate to MichaelCA's experience where after being raised by parent's who came of age during the 40's we were suddenly confronted with the feminists of the 70's who had Helen Reddy's I am woman hear me roar as a theme song. During that time frame many of the polite customs fell into disfavor among the confusion of change.
I think a reply that "Dear Abby" made to a letter illustrates the change in what is considered acceptable. During the 40's and 50's on a crowded bus almost any man would give his seat to almost any woman that was standing. A lady wrote a letter complaining to Abby that this was not happening anymore. Abby replied to the lady and said that any able bodied male or female should give up their seat for the elderly or disabled. But she told the woman that in an age when men and women are competing for the same jobs it is not reasonable to expect that males were necessarily going to give up their seats so an able bodied female could sit.
Basically during the 40's and 50's women were treated with deference in some areas. Understandably with the competition and the growing equality of the 70's and later some of the deference has disappeared.
This really caught my attention, being that I do not date for that exact same reason!!! You where well within your rights and expectations. It is a simple case of manners NOT ego. I read through some of the responses and I was sad to say I was not surprised at the way it was thrown back on you. Sorry about your bad experience. You did the right thing.
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But I don't think you are wrong expecting certain level of chivalry from a guy. I certainly expect to do that for my lady.