lions they don't worth wasting a bullet!

How Sad! And they think, we are doing something immoral, Please! (eom)

-- Modified on 8/29/2007 8:09:22 PM

There is a fine line between human nature and animal instinct drawn in us people, making love and sexual molestation are just one step away from each other.

This is absolutely horrible. But where are the guys who'd patronize this?

Watching that made me cry, so please don't accuse me of minimizing such horrible cruelty. But, when people compare such behavior to that of beasts/animals, I feel obliged to point out that animals do not sexually molest and traffic their children. They do not intentionally lie, cheat, steal, or murder. Yes, instinct causes violence in that they must fight for survival and kill to eat. But as humans, we have a level of awareness, which makes me believe that even such basic "cruelty" as killing an animal for food is not necessary when their are other more informed and humane alternatives. I am a vegetarian, and don't want to debate that, as diet is a personal choice (although I'm happy to discuss it if anyone feels the desire..) However, when serial killers and rapists are labeled as "beasts" it is frustrating to me. Only humans could conceive and carry out such cruelty. Of course we humans can also conceive and carry out remarkable and selfless acts of kindness- that's where freedom and choice come in. But to insinuate that an instinct is what drives such behavior is something I cannot agree with.

XoXo
Marea

I think most of us agree that such is not to be condoned. However, there have been posts made on various TER and other boards asking for information or recommendations on travel and hobbying in Thailand, where it seems clear that the way the hobby runs is not in an independent and empowering way, but rather in a destructive and exploitative one. And yet there are still men who brag about their foreign excursions during which they are able to fuck four young hotties for the price of one American provider's fee. It's not something to be proud of. I'm sure many who partake are not aware or choose to ignore these things, but I'm sure there are others who are appalled once they are educated about the reality of the matter- education is key.

XoXo
Marea

Edited for spelling



-- Modified on 8/30/2007 2:36:49 AM

Some of them are right here. Remember some of the long threads we have had dealing with "hobbying" (hard to call it that really) in various Asian countries? More than a few men got their panties in a bunch when it was pointed out how very widespread forced prostitution is there, and that there is no way to know whether the girl they paid for was a willing or unwilling participant.

"Beast" in oppose to human is not the same as Beast as an animal. I did not mean to compare them to animals, and if you read my first post again, you'll see I specifically mentioned "feed these beasts to Lions", trying to seperate them from animals. I could not find any other word better that that. If you have any suggestion I'll gladly modify my post.

Obviously, rape is a disgusting thing, no matter what the age or gender of the victim.  I think we can all agree on that.  To be honest, I didn't click on the link.  I think it would be some seriously disturbing shit, and frankly, I don't want to see something I can't un-see.  But I get the gist of it.

I don't want to split hairs with you, Marea, but most of the evidence suggests that pedophilia and similar perversions is a purely biological thing, similar to homosexuality, etc.  Don't get me wrong, it is still a repulsive practice, and if I had my way, our government would simply execute child molestors upon conviction.  Not because they are "bad" or because they need "punishment," but because their very nature threatens the existence of little children.  They cannot be "cured" or "treated" for their "illness," because it is their biological nature to lust after children.  In a similar way, I cannot be "cured" from lusting after adult women.  It is my nature, but my nature is not harmful, while theirs' is.  

Is this unfair?  Yes, of course, but no one said life is fair.  Pedophiles should keep it in their pants or face the consequences.  But make no mistake, they were either born this way, or perhaps they were socialized improperly (perhaps by being molested as children themselves, though this is not likely); this is not a personal choice, it is an "instinct" that they cannot control.  I realize that it bothers people to think of horrible things that are nonetheless beyond our control, but it doesn't make it less so.

BTW, strictly speaking, animals have no concept of "age of consent," so, yes, in theory, they do "molest" juveniles of their own species.  In the animal kingdom, when the females start ovulating, they are at a proper breeding age.  For humans, I think this starts at the age of 13 on average, so by animal-standards, we humans start late.

apparently when trauma happens at an early age, development stifles.  Pedophiles are attracted to children usually because of their own childhood experiences, correct?

No excuse, but apparently the cause.  JMU

No worries, and not directed specifically to you. Just wanted to clarify, as I think it is common for people to associate bad human behavior with "beastliness" and beastliness with non-human animals..

XoXo
M

I'm pretty sure the theory that its all genetic and predetermined is bullshit.  Certainly there are genetic predispositions to certain behaviors, but the idea that someone is a born child molester, or even born gay, is usually pushed by those with an underlying political agenda. Regardless, I'm in the summary execution camp for child molesters, the lowest form of scum.

I've seen the threads you mentioned and it does seem like some get bent out of shape when the practice of visiting Asia for the purpose of sex is brought into question.

I think there's a huge difference between seeing truly independent providers and going to a country where women are known to be sold or pimped as a matter of routine.  Sadly, once a woman becomes involved in the bargirl lifestyle, her options for anything else become extremely limited because of the caste she is placed in.

If you want some insights, I recommend the following link.

Interesting view point. I was born into a completely heterosexual family...was not molested by a female, was not molested by anyone and I turned out completely gay. If there is no inherent attraction or desire for the opposite sex, how can nuture be responsible for the outcome?

For example I do not respond to the "normal" cues and biological signals that hetero women respond to regarding males. Zip, zilch, nada. So I conclude with me, it's the way I am hardwired. And I wouldn't have it any other way. Women rule...they are simply delicious creatures.

First and foremost, I am totally against any sort of phedophiles.   I think that anybody who prays on younger members of society should be dealt with in a manner which would result in the most suffering to the person hurting anybody.

but..

This says the follow thing..

"27% of all recorded rape cases by the police worldwide are commited against children 16 years old.  These are only the reported cases."  

This statement make the following assumptions.
 1) That the reported and unreported cases have the same distribution of adult to child victims.  I personally think that the reported cases have a much higher percentage of children being attacked than adults.   Pretty much any indicence of adult/child sexual conduct will be reported.

 2) It says WorldWide.  Does a society where a 15 year old can be married consider it rape if an older man marries a 15 year old?

 3) Even the way it is written is weird..  "27% of all recorded rape cases by the police..."  What does "recorded" mean?  What does it mean to say "recorded rape cases by the police"?  It almost could mean that of the rape cases caused by the police, 27% of them were against children.

The problem is that every time I see statistics like this, I always want to know the whole story..

It always amuses me, but disturbs me at the same time, when folk get to finger pointing and fill their selves with hate and ignorance.


All of you speaking in this way are total hypocrites, in a number of ways.


Thurgood Marshall once said "the civility of a society can be measured by the conditions of it's prisons".

Well we have a prison system where rapes occur and are accepted by our society.

MANY folk welcome the rape aspect, as punishment for various criminals.


If you really want to look at a topic and see the whole picture (versus of course, the self-righteous finger pointing and soap-boxing, that makes a person feel good about their self in  ignorance), you need to have some love, mercy and compassion.


Many of the same criminals, who have committed heinous crimes in our society, were badly abused/neglected as children.


So these same children you CLAIM to be caring about and defending, are some of the SAME children who will grow up to be the very SAME people committing heinous crimes, to which you and folk like you will be pointing a finger at, and saying  things like "good, I'm happy that they're gonna get raped in prison", or "feed them to the lions".



Don't fool yourself into thinking you are any better than anybody.

We are all human beings, and we all have the propensity to do horrible things.


If you really care, then you would have some compassion and understanding.


The finger pointing just shows that you are quick to be self-righteous, and are unwilling to see or deal with your fellow human beings.

Do NOT fool yourself that you actually have any love in you.  

-- Modified on 8/30/2007 10:23:54 AM

I'm just going to keep fooling myself.

at least it's easier than having to be real with yourself, and deal with YOUR OWN issues right?



Keep on finger pointing....    it's making a difference.

For inquiring minds here is my original message that I posted under Alias:

=================================
Sub: Pardon my French!What does denigrating CHILD ABUSE have to do with HYPOCRISY?

Posted by PracticewhatYouPreach, 8/30/2007 11:18:39 AM  

Unless you beleive every body here is a "Child molestor"????

Are you sure you posted under the right thread?

=====================================

Just wondering....



Whatever you want to call it, "denigrating" or whatever other word, until or unless you can deal with the actual issue, then all it is, is simply an exercise in complete hypocrisy and self-righteousness.



Sorry if that is a tough wake-up call for you, but it is what it is.

Being anonymous isn't going to help either, by the way.

Sigh... no, I'm not being "political."  As I've said before, I don't even vote.  But if I did vote, I'd probably vote Republican, because a candidate's opinions about homosex and abortion and evolution are bullshit to me and to everyone else with a brain in their head.  Your vote should be about things that affect you -- taxes, government services, job creation, etc.  None of that other shit affects me.  None of it.  Believe it or not, not everything is political.  Okay?  Can we drop the political "accusations" now?  This thread is about child molesters.  What political party could possibly be in favor of child molesters?  Are the Democrats going to seek the child molester vote?  Are child molesters big campaign contributors?  

Anyway, no, I don't think being gay or a pedophile is caused by "genetics," per se.  It is caused by the same thing that causes a person to be born male or female.  A certain cocktail of hormones, randomly delivered at just the right stage of embryonic development to produce a particular sexual preference.  Probably.  We do not know with absolute certainty.  And yes, it is certainly possible that, in some cases, the victims of child molestation will grow up to molest other children themselves.  

But here's one thing we DO know with absolute concrete certainty:  almost no one decides, consciously, that they WANT to be sexually attracted to children.  It is virtually unheard of.  This is not someone’s choice.  No one can MAKE himself feel sexual attraction for someone or something that doesn’t sexually excite them.  The attraction is either there, or it isn’t.  People like to ascribe personality traits like "evil" to other people so that they can feel justified in meting out punishment.  I don't have that problem, personally.  I am perfectly comfortable with imprisoning or executing those who are NOT necessarily evil if it means saving the lives of others.  It's the mature mind-set.  But if it helps you get through the day to pretend that child molesters are Satan-spawn, then by all means.  Hating them is certainly better than treating them, because treating them will never work.

As ones sexual experiences develop, certain combinations of experiences associate with sexual stimulation.  Future stimulation will route to these same combinations effecting one's preferences for gratification.

When a child is molested.  He still feels sexually stimulated, but combined with manipulation.  He will reenact these same combinations for stimulation.    

Too bad we haven't found a way to divert this stimulus to another gratification mechanism, allowing behavior modification.  I haven't read up on this for a long time, but I'm disappointed serotonin, shock and psycho therapy don't seem to work.

I wasn't picking on you.  I tried to make the point that those who claim the science is settled, and that homosexuality or other sexual predilections are determined at conception, are "usually" pushing a political agenda, and that therefore their claims should be taken with a grain of salt.  

I certainly do believe that some folks are born gay, and can't argue with your point that some pedophiles may be also.  But they do have alternatives to destroying the lives of innocents.  If they choose to gratify their aberrant desires with real, live childern, that makes them scum, or satan-spawn as you so eloquently put it, in my book. And hate them I will.

Oh, and I wish everything weren't political, but in this day and age?  Maybe you can think of a sex subject that hasn't been politicized, but off-hand, I can't.

Not saying that people are evil for feeling attracted to someone who is not of age. However, people frequently have impulses or opportunities to do things that would not be in the best interests of others. When they put their own gratification before the health, safety, and well-being of others, especially the most vulnerable among us, that is wrong in my book. Just because you have a desire for something, or the ability to do something, does not always mean it should be done.

XoXo
M

Granted, many people have made this point as it relates to homosexuality, and they have politicized that particular topic to death.  I didn't mean to shout, it's just that I recall a recent post in which everything I said was mistaken for political banter.

But look at this topic from another point of view.  You are attracted to adult women, right?  Imagine if you woke up tomorrow in a world in which adult women were regarded the way children are in our world -- helpless, unable to make decisions or grant consent, etc.  Having sex with a woman in this imaginary world would be illegal, and everyone would regard you as a horrible monster because of your sexual preference, if it were to become known.  Even viewing female pornography would brand you as a pervert.  Would you have the will-power to avoid trying to have sex with women for the rest of your life in this scenario, knowing that it's wrong and yet compelled by natural forces beyond your control?  

This is far-fetched and borders on the ridiculous, but it helps to make a philosophical point.  One way or another, nature or nurture, I know these pedophiles didn't choose to be attracted to children, and they are grappling with urges as powerful as yours and mine.  I just have a hard time regarding these people as monsters.  But I wouldn't have a hard time executing them for the common good of the children.  And just as a side note, I don't have children, nor do I want children, nor do I even particularly like children.  But it doesn't change the way I feel about protecting their rights and their safety.

"When a child is molested.  He still feels sexually stimulated, but combined with manipulation.  He will reenact these same combinations for stimulation."

You could be right, but if a child is molested at such an early age, I wonder if he or she would even relate the traumatic experience with sexual stimulation at all.  

As for behavior modification, the very fact that it generally doesn't work to "treat" child molesters is just more proof of the biological nature of their urges.  Not that the argument can be completely settled either way, at this point.

In "On Human Nature," human beings actually rate in the middle on aggression for a species. He describes a fight between two packs of jackals that was every bit as fierce as a full-fledged gang war-- minus the guns. At the end, the winners cannibalized the losers. Male lions, got instance, will often kill each other. Chimpanzees of different "tribes" have been known to torture each other to death

Infanticide occurs in a lot of species. You'll also see males mount other males-- as dominance. It can get pretty violent if it's resisted.  

I don't know of any socio-biological work done specifically on child molesting or serial killing. I believe whatever comes out about that is going to be very controversial.

. . . from those who go there specifically to rape children.  I wish I had some idea who those guys were.

The slavery is bad enough. And guys need to think about why it's such a bargain. Even if the ones you see aren't slaves, the price has been driven down by competition with slaves.

-- Modified on 8/30/2007 10:36:13 PM

sheep commit gangrape, stallions rape mares when they fight off the old herd leader, causing fetuses of the old leader to abort.  nature is cruel in any species, abominable in man that does this to children because we know better.

But genes do provide the buttons the environment pushes.  Some buttons are larger than others, some are a hair-trigger, and some are solid as anvils. And then some don't exist in certain people. That's more of a way to think about it than the genes just causing it. They just provide the "spread" of buttons the environment pushes.

I'm the same with you about child molesters, and serial killers.  I don't really care what causes it.  It's like that brown recluse spider I found in my sink.  Just kill it!

There you are finger pointing at hypocrites.  

As for the child growing up to molest after being molested, the way I see it, whether you hate it or not, you have to shoot rabid dog. It doesn't matter how he got it, or how much you try to "love" him despite it.  

Look at it like this: if you love him but then shoot him, well, then you're a hypocrite.  If you hate him and shoot him (which makes the dirty work of shooting him easier) then you're a hypocrite for not considering his innocence in just contracting the disease.

And of course, if you love him and let him live, you're a fool, because it's a rabid dog. And it has become a thing whose only purpose it is to spread misery before dying miserably.  

So, pity would have you kill it. If anything, anger and disgust just make it easier.

Specifically about molesters?  We should lock them up and/or watch them. They are not quite rabid dogs, but the purpose is similar.

remapping of stimulation and a blocker for impulsive behavior.  

They're making strides in gene therapy.  Which, would create more options.  Maybe they'll find a solution someday.

Or, we could just put a rubber band on their nuts and wait a few weeks

Most molestors were molested themselves, right?  

Might not be a gene, but gene therapy could provide the ability to balance what's an imbalance, which creates the lack of ability to stop impulse.  Serotonin levels were mentioned as a cause, which makes sense.  

With cancer, they're close to being able to reconstitute the blood for gene therapy, providing the ability for our bodies to again naturally seek out and destroy cancer cells.  It's just a matter of time. They've found 3 of 5 genes that self destruct causing the inability to fight the cancer cells we all have in our system.  

Just wish all these Mensa folks would find a solution.  I have met some of the brightest at Mayo, genetic research.

Very interesting field to be in these days.

-- Modified on 8/31/2007 7:24:38 AM

Whether someone comes out and condones the prison system, or makes comments like "feed them to the lions", it's all the same thing.

If your solution is to shoot someone, feed them to the lions, etc., for certain heinous deeds, at some point, we would ALL be dead.

Anybody out there acting like they haven't done anything heinous is LYING, and only fooling their self.

I am NOT saying that we are all "child molestors", but we ARE all molestors, murderers, etc., of something.

If people weren't given a chance to be understood and learn from their mistakes, then no one would know anything good, and there would be no wisdom, no righteousness.


Hey, I am FOR the death penalty, in certain situations!

But at the same time, penalties for crimes should not be done with maliciousness, emotionalism, nor ignorance.

They should be done in the manner that you just stated -  with regret.


It's the "feed them to the lions" mentality, that I am addressing; NOT the concept of punishment for crimes/sins.





and yes, I pointed the finger BACK! lol

Believe it or not. But you have to note the difference between heinous and other ugly behavior. I'll agree that nearly all have the potential to do something heinous. Not everyone is presented with a situation where they would.  

The loathing people express when they are not in the power to do anything is very likely different than what they would actually do given the chance. We must keep the social structure that attacks the lynch-mob, but if anything, it's the revulsion one feels toward something like child molestation that people the energy to act and prevent it.  

You did make one good point: that the child you pity for being molested can be the same adult you loath when they molest.

The best thing would be a "cure."  Not something that cripples them in other ways, but something that prevents them from sexual attraction and violent impulses toward children.

I have to say I'm skeptical that all child molesters were molested as children, though. I wish the science and neurology of that were better understood.

It's likely that extreme violence follows us from our tribal existence-- where cannibalism was known to occur. So, it's better to think of it as atavistic, or a throw-back.