The link is to a thought provoking article. And no, I'm not looking to piss anyone off or start a firestorm. It's appropriately named "The Truth Hurts"

I wont pretend to have the answers to all the questions but I found the article thought provoking. It's very difficult when emotions enter into a discussion because they shift the focus from the real issues. Vicky saw the futility in remaining in New Orleans, took the steps necessary to improve the quality of her life and probably worked dammed hard to get to where she is today. I admire anyone who does this, anyone who is not content to sit back and accept wahtever may come their way as the final answer. Most of our ancestors and probably everyone on these boards, providers and patrons alike, are here only because of the efforts of their ancestors to improve their life. i think welare is necessary but many times is misused and abused, adding to the dysfuctionalism you were describing. When I referred to the "easy life" yesterday, I was alluding to people who take the easy way out and choose not to commit themselves to a better way of life. Didn't ever mean to say their life was "easy".

-- Modified on 9/5/2005 8:25:29 PM

I have two children, and am a divorced parent.  The hardest thing for me and my ex-wife to do is to discipline our children.  Why?  for fear that the act of discipline will make the children like the other parent better.  We are both intelligent and wish to see our kids do well.  We lay our own selfish motivations aside - and we do discipline the kids... sometimes jointly and sometimes separately...  

I weep for my country.  No one is disciplining us.  Recently, in my city, a man was convicted of rape.  As an inducer to get the girl to "go along" he used drugs.  His sentence - house arrest for 3 yrs.  And the judge refuses to listen to the public outcry.

What are we as a society when we only look to others to provide instant gratification, and someone to do the heavy lifting.  It is hard to go to school, gain an understanding of the world and actively participate in goverment and civic duties.  But that is all that keeps us from the "man on the white horse"  who will eagerly "come to save us."  And imprison us.

I weep, because I remember a country that had just finished defeating evil.  And now, when I see some ask for help to rid the world of maybe one pocket of evil, we get our European "buddies" chiming in about our ignorant approach to world events.... like they solved anything in the past 3 centuries.  Pardon my rant, but want to change things, put people on notice, they have an expected level of personal responsibility....

Think it is local to NO?  Think again.  Recall the woman in New Hampshire?  her doctor tells her she is obese and she takes offense....   and files a complaint against him....

What is this?  This same woman, will, no doubt sue, if her condition gets worse because he did not adequately treat her....  

Values?  we are rapidly loosing them.  help, we provide little to those we "Socially promote" those we provide easy access to everything... Earn something?  we have lost a lot.

I weep.

-- Modified on 9/5/2005 11:46:34 AM

Don't you guys get it? - civilization is goin' down.

It's too late to "understand".

Just enjoy the ride, and get laid as much as you can.

The end is near... the truth hurts.

But hey, if it makes you feel better, go ahead a blog your brains out.

For me I prefer fucking my brains out.  Oh, wasn't that the purpose of this site?

-- Modified on 9/5/2005 11:00:25 PM

Thought provoking, but a little slanted in spots. I am for using this board to talk about decadence, debauchery, and otherwise moral decline of civilization. Let's move the Hurricane talk to the political board where it should be able to live its own life.

Not you, Pat, but I knew some scumbag was going to make this argument.  

There was a lot more that went wrong in NOLA than just the "welfare" state, or that getting rid of the welfare state and instead warehousing the poor in prisons can fix.  This is the "conservative" welfare plan.  Wait until they do something criminal and then own their ass forever, and pay for them.  

It seems that officials at the highest levels of the city, parish. state government were just as lethargic and criminal for years on end. These were *not* welfare recepients.  And their looting of funds was at least as much a deterrent to shoring up their city. The Federal goverment in the final days was at least that lethargic.  

At most, maybe about five percent of those people were armed criminals.  As 9/11 shows, one violent guy with a weapon can have a lot of power over thirty people that don't.  

Yet, after 9/11, you didn't have the knee jerk disgusting reaction that the victims on the plane deserved it because they had terrorists in their midst, or implied that they were all terrorists and deserved their punishment equally. Nobody asked why they were flying, flying is so dangerous, can't planes crash?  And why were they trying to get somewhere else anyway?  They didn't do enough to save themselves; why didn't more of them fight the terrorists?  

What I'm hearing conservative jackoffs give us now is *exactly* those arguments.  Substitute 9/11 for Katrina, and change a few nouns, its the same.  If they had the some posture on 9/11, and a sane person with a soul began to point out their essential bigotry, barbarity and cruelty, that person would then be shouted down and charged with being soft on the terrorists.

Remember, on three of those four planes, it's not like all those passengers resisted four guys with box cutters taking over the plane.  I was appalled by that.  Did the "welfare state" cause that, then?  Or is their a correlation between accepting welfare and buying airplane tickets?        

I know that's all hypothetical, but if you could point at the welfare state, why not at the consumerization of the second amendment?  Instead of well regulated militias, we had looted gun shops.  And, wow, it seems that only the criminals owned guns.  Why not point at commercialized television from an early age, which probably causes more passivity, violence and the inability to save yourself in a real crisis than anything else.  Not to mention crippling more people with obesity, heart disease and diabetes.  

Other countries have welfare without the troubles we're seeing.  Does Toronto look like New Orleans,  or on a better day, even St. Louis or Detroit to you?  

I'll say: this is getting old.  No, it's beyond old.  It's dead.  

-- Modified on 9/5/2005 1:03:37 PM

that article tells alot that i alredy know

i have a friend who escaped new orleans, he went to schreveport
and the first thing he said was "them *expletives* are acting a fool"
he told me about people who had PLANNED before the hurricane to do ignorant stuff like set the mall on fire

I aint saying (some of) the people who live in New Orleans are saints, I've said before they are IGNORANT.

I'm telling you from first hand knowledge, ALOT (not all) but ALOT of the inhabitants of New Orleans still have the mindsets of "slaves" and I believe there are things we all as tax payers and voters could have done throughout the years  to help bring that city past that mentality an move it up to the rest of American standards.

But we didn't.
Not to lay blame, I mean me and some of my siblings are doing what we can to change thngs. My sister is a political science major, she wants to change the government policy's (yes she is a bit naive, but very kind and very sweet) and I am hoping to do the same.

But it just did not seem possible to do while in New Orleans.

like i say "once you know better, you do better"

and when all those people are new citizens of YOUR neghborhoods, I bet we will all do better, eh?

-- Modified on 9/5/2005 1:04:06 PM

well personally

i haven't had sex in over 2 weeks and its making me DAMNED grouchy

I need SOME

Please reread Vicki's posts again.  Her position, that she had to leave, because to stay would be to have been expected to become one with a lower set of expectations.  When our society "Expects" low performance, they get it.

No one is saying that you should get rid of providing  assistance to people, just what form, and what do they do to move beyond needing assistance.  That's all.  

So, I did expect more from you, got less.  Pygmallion doesn't strike again.

As I said, my black friends in NO, are quite successful... one returned and left again, never found out why, but I suspect it may have something to do with what  you say, I will ask her...   Sad, that,cause we all were not concerned about the race issue - And just think this was in the late '60's!  quite a shocker - no?

had made arrangements for a weekender!  with quite the juicy lady....   she had a family emergency!  I wind up in a hotel - overhear conversations.... post them here and get flamed!  oh well, such is life.

Read my lead sentence.  

I don't think New Orleans changed very much after Bill Clinton "reformed" welfare.  I don't think its cultural divide and racial antagonism and class separation were very different before FDR.

Sorry, very little of the problem was welfare, if any of it really.  If you find my argument unappealing, by all means, take it apart point by point and show people where it's wrong.    

nope didn't think you had an answer !

NEXT !

Another case of finger pointing - taken from another board - only partial due to limitation of text allowed in posting -

Monday, Sept. 5, 2005
George Bush and the federal government are not to blame for the disaster we have witnessed in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina.
In fact, the primary responsibility for the disaster response lies with New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin, Louisiana Governor Kathleen Blanco and other local officials.
Yet leading Democrats and their allies in the major media are clearly using this disaster for political purposes and ignoring one obvious fact.
This fact – which needs to be repeated and remembered – is that in our country, state and local governments have primary responsibility in dealing with local disasters.
The founding fathers devised a federal system of government – one that has served us remarkably well through great disasters that have befallen America over more than two centuries.
But if we believe the major TV networks, George Bush, FEMA and the Republicans in Congress are all to blame for the current nightmare.
Let's remember that FEMA, the Federal Emergency Management Agency, was created only in 1979. It was formed to coordinate and focus federal response to major disasters – to "assist" local and state governments.
Common sense suggests that local and state governments are best able to prepare and plan for local disasters.
Is a Washington bureaucrat better suited to prepare for an earthquake in San Francisco, a hurricane in Florida, or a terrorist act in New York?
After the Sept. 11 attacks against the World Trade Center, no one suggested that the Bush administration should have been responsible for New York's disaster response or that federal agents should have been involved in the rescue of those trapped in the buildings.
Last year, four major hurricanes slammed into Florida. Governor Jeb Bush led the disaster response and did a remarkable job, with nothing happening like what we have seen in New Orleans.
The primary response in disasters has always come from local communities and state governments.
First responders and the manpower to deal with emergencies come from local communities: police, fire and medical. Under our federal system, these local departments answer to local authorities, not those in Washington. These first responders are not even under federal control, nor do they have to follow federal orders.
In addition to local responders, every state in the Union has a National Guard.
State National Guards answer first to the governor of each state, not to the president. The National Guard exists not to defend one state from an invasion by another state, but primarily for emergencies like the one we have witnessed in New Orleans and in other areas impacted by Katrina. (See: http://www.arng.army.mil/about_us/organization/command_structure.asp)
Tim Russert and the Blame Game
The media would have you believe that this disaster was worsened by a slow response from President Bush and his administration, though the primary responsibility for disaster response has always been with local and state governments.
It is true that federal response was not as fast as it could have been. The president himself has acknowledged that fact.
But the press has focused on the first 48 hours of federal response, not uttering a word about the fact that New Orleans had 48 hours of warning that a major Category 4 or 5 would make landfall near the city, yet local officials apparently did little to prepare.
Obviously, Gov. Blanco did not effectively deploy her state's National Guard.
And New Orleans' city leaders did almost nothing to evacuate the portion of the population with no transportation. In failing to follow their own evacuation plan, these officials did little to pre-position food, water and personnel to deal with the aftermath.
I was surprised Sunday to watch Tim Russert, on his show "Meet the Press," tear into Homeland Security Chief Michael Chertoff. During his encounter with Chertoff, Russert did not suggest once that local government had any role in dealing with the disaster. Russert also asked for Chertoff's resignation.
It wasn't until after the first 29 minutes of his show – 29 minutes – that Russert raised the question of local responsibility. And when he did so with Jefferson Parish President Aaron Broussard, he did so in a passing way. Broussard brushed off his question with a non-answer.
Broussard began his interview claiming that the nation had "abandoned" New Orleans.
That is nonsense and a lie.

in the world has it issues with racism, class warfare, and poverty. Again, these issues are not really germane to the flooding and devistation except for the people who didn't have the means or who foolishly tried to ride it out. If by chance, N.O. were completely evacuated, this issue never reaches these pages. For every issue raised about the people Vicki sought to escape, she'll learn that the worst of what she left behind is in BOS, NY CHI, LA and the like. I've see this same phenomena in many other countries as well... it's roots are in capitalism; everybody can't be rich. Whether people can pull themselves out of the muck is largely an individual decision. When people start preaching, welfare state and people believing they are entitled then I would argue that these people miss the very point of the system that created it. Unlike the common cold it's not going to go away. If it were that easy, your poor black uneducated friends and your poor white uneducated  friends would be helping each other up and out, but that would be too much like right. The shame of it, they can't even play in the same sandbox and we sit back partially playing God and Monday morning quarterback.

I do find a problem with welfare as now structured.  Making welfare more attractive than entry level positions?  That is not the best way to go, and yet that is what we have been doing consistantly - demo or repub.  

Canada?  better, on the surface - but they have their share of problems as well - care to pay their tax burden?  

I agree, for all of the promises of welfare reform, neither party has.  I partially blame the bloated beurocracy for much of the mess in our country... and what is beurocracy - simply put, the working persons version of government dole... Welfare.

Positioning people to take actual social responsiblity and contribute meaningfully to the society - that is what I want, no less.  It actually provides purpose to life... why so many suicides shortly after retirement?  loss of purpose.

What I am upset about is the lack of our educational system to really prepare certain segments of our population for taking their appropriate place in our society.  Rather, as has been expressd in this discussion thread, preparing them for a lifetime of servatude....  That is not right, I would rather be tough on the front end, so that I did not have to build the prison at the back end... as you so correctly identified.

Problem is Bush's?  I really don't think so, both parties have failed to propose people of quality, integrity and honesty for the past 4 decades.... Kennedy INCLUDED!

And our fourth branch - the Press.... what a joke they are.  Most of them would burn their own mother just to get a story.  A sorry lot indeed - all of them, from the talk radio goons, to the left wing traditionalists.  Personally, were I in charge of the madhouse, if a press helicopter spotted someone on a roof - they would be required to either rescue them, or drop food & water to them. Failure to so do, would result in a federal indictment.  All press would be REQUIRED to take extensive training in emergency medicine, they want the special privilege of being first at the scene?  They should be trained to be of some use at the scene... radical no?  

So, you see, my vindictive is directed neither to Clinton, nor to Bush, but to us.  We have permitted this to happen.  We elected them, we proposed weak people for the office, and we permit the growth of a beaurocracy that is intent on self-suvival and growth.

Sorry, your premise for your whole argument is wrong - got the wrong guy - cause WE are the guy.

PA Govenor Redell is suing because of the closing of a national guard naval air station in the greater philly area.  Given that the govenor's have the "say-so" over national guard units, can the feds close the base... no matter what the BRAC recommends... So- who should have acted - THE GOVENOR !

by NOT.

The welfare "state" has created several generations of citizens who neither can fish for themselves or care to be taught to. These current acts of violence, civil disobedience and cries of entitlement we are witnessing are just a harbinger of what is in store should something cataclysmic happen where the welfare checks would cease to exist altogether.

  Cm.

you can send me to the darkest corners of Compton, Roxbury and The Bronx and I would never find the level of ignorance that was pervasive in New Orleans.
Not possible.

every major city may have "elements" of New Orleans
but in new Orleans, it was pervasive, you could not ESCAPE the ignorance and racism on a daily basis

The ignorance issue is VERY germaine to the DEVASTATION that followed. The despair and hopelessness comes from the ignorance and rascism that is pervasive in New Orleans. And alot of that is the reason ALOT of people didn't leave.

When you go to Louisiana you REALLY TRULY KNOW what it means to have been a descendant of people who were oppressed, their thought processes are so hopeless it's like they've been conditioned to hold each other back

there is noway anyone who has not LIVED there, in New Orleans, Alabama and MS, specifically could EVER understand, all you can do is compare it to what you have experienced which is NO WHERE on the level of what it is like living as a black person in New Orleans.


I have been in boston for 8 years
its COMPLETELY different
there is NO comparison to LIFE in New Orleans

-- Modified on 9/5/2005 8:17:25 PM

"I do find a problem with welfare as now structured.  Making welfare more attractive than entry level positions?  That is not the best way to go, and yet that is what we have been doing consistantly - demo or repub.  "

Absolutely TRUE!!


"Positioning people to take actual social responsiblity and contribute meaningfully to the society - that is what I want, no less.  It actually provides purpose to life... why so many suicides shortly after retirement?  loss of purpose. "

I agree, 100%, have you ever seen that documentary by Jamie Johnson the heir to the Johnson and Johnson fortune, where all their friends were depressed and miserable? they had no purpose in life except to be rich, but there was the one guy who was rich but decided to get a regular job, paying a middle class wage and he said that job gave him the most happiness and brought a meaning and purpose to his life.


"What I am upset about is the lack of our educational system to really prepare certain segments of our population for taking their appropriate place in our society."


PREACH!! Hell yes Preach it brother!!

" I would rather be tough on the front end, so that I did not have to build the prison at the back end"

You get a standing OVATION for that one, lol


I agree with every single thing you said
wow!!
amazing

-- Modified on 9/5/2005 10:34:45 PM

I can't wait till payday.

and I understand how the south functions at the lowest levels in many ways... MS, LA, AL, GA and FL have made the smallest of progress in getting their people to become less dependent on the state and the FEDS have a stake in it too... I used to teach in AL and GA so I know what abject poverty can do to people and their motivation.. Their hopelessness is pervasive and I don't see that changing for generations to come... it's a sad country we live in and while not blameless, many of these people are kept "corraled" for reasons that I am sure are very clear to you...

-- Modified on 9/5/2005 8:02:30 PM

i heard that President Bush ordered his 2 aids to come up with a way to divert the attention away from the federal government and blame it all on the local officials in Louisiana

cool

My conclusion is that we need to physically tear down universities... they are structured completely wrong - and in the process we should put everyone of the elitist profs on notice... produce products and scientific advances that can contribute to society - or you will be fired.

There was a time when science was practiced by gentlemen of means... as a hobby.  Today - it is big business.   Supported by YOUR Federal and state tax dollars... So?  If we are supporting our universities with literally BILLIONS in tax $, why is tuition a troublesome issue for most families?  

Truth is, in my humble experience, most university professors and administrators care not for the public they serve, even though they demand to feed at the trough of government largess.  They are consistantly arrogant, and in some cases with the morals of alley cats.

Say what you will, this is based on many years of working with them... Want to read some interesting stuff about these characters?  Do a search on a fellow named Leo K. Bustad - a veterianry pathologist....   Ask the sheep ranchers in Utah about his honesty in the 1950's when he pronounced their sheep dead due to natural causes - could not have had anything to do with the nuclear tests going on then?  

Examples abound....  Education, it is the only fix, that and teaching social responsibility.

When was the last time anyone here, taught their kid, that if they get lost, go to a policeman?  Yes, as we can see in the past few days, our society is in danger of coming unravelled at the seams....   And those with the most to loose, the hollywood elite, the news profession, the liberal left, will be the first to suffer on what comes next.  Please, think through the consequences of weak leadership, failure to act quickly.

Several years ago, the old Life Magazine ran a series on Hitler's plans to conquer the U.S.  That is correct, he had what if plans drawn up.  Guess what the strategy was?  Come up through the Gulf, via NO and split the country in two...  simple but effective.

Had we not stopped him, and stop him we did, but a little to the later than sooner side.  Sadam H.?  did we stop him too early?  You judge, but in my mind, the man had already demonstrated what kind of monster he is, why wait?

Evil - you betcha.  I believe more strongly in the Devil and evil than I do in God at times.  I have seen direct evidence of the Devil's miracles... they are really gruesome.

Can we move forward?  The wonderful thing about this country is that it does.  What I see, is a wave of orientals, who have a hard work ethic, not unlike our early pioneers, a strong committment to family, a sense that the universe is held together by more than just man, and they wonder at that and finally, they look to government, not to hand them anything other than the opportunity to do better....   Sounds like every wave of immigrants this country has assimilated....

That is another key, assimilation.  While many blacks may not like to admit it, they have been assimilated!  They ARE a bound part of the culture... Imagine music today without the influence of Black Americans, or sports!  or even Science - GWCarver comes to mind - and others....   What is sad about the Mexican Fiasco, is that they are deliberately not assimlating... rather, they come and do not become part of the fabric of the society... Admittedly some do, but the majority, see this country as a meal ticket...

So, I will go back into hibernation now, I have this off my chest.... and yes, Vicki and I do see things somewhat similar. but what did you expect from Southerners!?  Will I return?  don't know, maybe we all can work this out.

"The Poor will always be with us".  I understand from Fox News, The Washington Times, Richard Mellon-Scaife and other authorities that Jesus is a good Republican so if he said it then it must be true.  The point?  The poor existed long before the so-called welfare state and will exist long after the GOP kills it.  You don't think the poor died in Galveston, in San Francisco, in Chicago, when they encountered flood, earthquake and fire?  And there was no "welfare state" back then--just a whole lot of poor people that no one helped and that no government agency even tried to assist.  I understand that Karl Rove and his colleagues are rolling out the Fox News talking points to take the heat off the administration and I also understand that after comparing a triple-amputee veteran to Osama bin Laden there is nothing the GOP will not do to maintain power but that doesn't mean we have to take this crap without pushing back.  And by the way, when the moonie driven Washington Times becomes your source for "fact" you really have to start checking your sources.  Please remember that the criticisms of the administration have to do with GOVERNANCE not politics.  Bad governance should be called when it happens, no matter who is in power.  Blaming FEMA's feeble response on a welfare state that hardly even exists anymore (anyone remember the Clinton cuts to welfare?) is simply weak.  Please come up with at least a faintly plausible argument next time.

i love someone i can debate with

ps: "orientals" are objects, the people are asian

..especially when they are applied to a "we."  You refer to a "we," but all you've done is abstracted the notion of change and applied it to the obscure, you and (maybe) somebody else.    

Now, let me play devils advocate, or maybe the devil himself, with the rest of your post.

Back to your lead-in sentence, "welfare as structured."  What does that mean?  Any welfare system is going to be structured to take some money from those who can afford it and give it to those who have less.  The better off will complain about the taxes, and the poor may gain resources but never any status from it, and this will be a seething source of anger.  No restructuring will change it.    

But welfare has two purposes that we don't talk about in real terms.  The first purpose is to maintain the impoverished in conditions that won't make the rest of the people feel bad or disgusted or guilty.  The better-off would likely respond to their emotions by dehumanizing the poor and making them either a permanent slave cast or would simply massacre them.  Conversely, the better off could  also get enraged at the system, and aim to destroy it and replace the system with something speculative like communism. Hence, many revolutionaries, like Lenin, Che Gevara or with a different ideology, Osama bin Ladin, come from the middle and upper classes.      

The second reason is to keep the poor just stable enough, just invested in the system enough that they don't declare open war with it. But they will seethe with rage anyway because they will never gain status.  There are some that will deviate from this and become vicious, but not so many and never so organized that you can't put them in prison.  Yet.  

This is not stable, but a nation state isn't stable either.  Welfare has three problems. First, the better-off resent it, and get self-deceived about it, and will attempt to get rid of it.  As for the poor, they have two problems with it, welfare gives them resources, but they never gain status, in fact, they lose status.  But far worse, while you don't give them status, you assure that by giving them resources, their numbers must grow. That's a given, all living things have one imperative: to replicate their genes.  Since they are doing that, and they are deprived of status, they aren't likely to do anything else.    

Having studied human affairs as a Darwinistic phenomenon, I can see some truly disturbing things about welfare, that most other people don't realize.  It makes me worry about what would happen if this society in particular tries to cut it or do away with it.  It's a bit like lighting fire under dynamite.  

More about the rest later.

specific actionable Items.....   but you only wish to complain and state:

The system can't be changed.
The system must exist as is.
My man did not win the election, so even if the current occupant of the white house cures cancer, solves faster than light speed travel, finds a cheap alternative fuel source, and ends the mideast crisis, you would still say he was evil...

There - happy now, I've summed up all your points, with less verbage..
and in case you didn't know it, our basic governmental document begins with "We, the people..... "  

Get a clue.

-- Modified on 9/6/2005 6:21:10 AM

-- Modified on 9/6/2005 6:41:54 AM

my last marriage lasted over 10 yrs....  My ex's comment - you are a GREAT dad, but a lousy husband.... must be that I ate too many red beans and rice.... lol!

Now everyone will think that we are dating! lol - but thanks for the complement - it is nice chatting with someone who can change your perspective, as you did mine about being black in NO, because they have a different vantage point.  My black friends from NO, never, ever commented on things like you did, and it is telling that they moved away!  That occurred twice this weekend.  WOW, even without sex, that was truly fun!

-- Modified on 9/6/2005 6:27:50 AM

Encouraging and motiivational words followed up by the real constitution.  You used "we" a little differently-- it was the centerpiece of the plan and the thing that I was lacking.    

It was late and I ran out of mental energy writing it.  There was more.  For now it has to stand because I haven't got time to correct it or write more.

Well gosh, that quote just about sums up the entire article, doesn't it? Heaven forbid you point out that even among the very poorest echelons of our society, those who were looting and harming others were the smallest minority.  Don't bother pointing out that the vast majority of these people were quietly shuffling along the interstate with their children and elderly in tow, waiting to be told where to go.  Definitely don't bother to mention that they were shoved into the Superdome with nary a thought for what would happen in there during or after the disaster.   Nope... do like Fox News does, and focus on the few criminals.

Yeah, criminals with guns are MUCH MUCH louder than a little old woman sitting quietly by the road completely deserted and abandoned.  At least, to some people they are.  

For me, I barely notice the criminals... they are worthless and not worthy of my notice... but that little old lady with the quiet eyes makes my heart SCREAM.  The mothers trying to find their children because they were separated during the evacuation, makes my heart SCREAM.  The criminals? WHO CARES?  

Yeah, that article is dead on that it was primarily the poorest people... those with no transportation and no place to go and no money to pay for a place to go... who were horribly affected by Katrina.  Yes, that's true. And this gives you sudden license to lord it over them and what, blame them for being poor?

People doing this in time of such need for OUR PEOPLE IN AMERICA make me positively ill. It's fascinating to me that some of you want to point your fingers at the poorest and most traumatized people, and are angry at the rest of us, who are pointing our fingers straight towards the incompetence and callousness at the TOP.

Sincerely,
Tamara

if there's just "a few" of them, why do we need 16,000 armed troops there (and 24,000 more are commited) to restore order?

yeah, we should just expect the poorest of us to be criminals, they just can't do better, can they?

I only counted a few criminals.

"WWL TV is debriefing John Becker, a reporter from its sister station KGW in Portland. Asked how he felt in the city, downtown and uptown, he said "I felt really safe." He talked to a man in the downtown area, who had stayed and was helping to rescue people. "I peppered him with questions about the violence," referring to the media reports. "He said he heard some shots at night," but, the reporter continued, "maybe three or four people, not the roving gangs we've heard about in the media."

The true victims are the ones that did leave. The ones that are sitting in hotels with little resources, credit cards that will be cancelled any day, cars that will be repo'ed any day, unemployment checks that they they will not get anytime soon, children that are out of school, and debts that will end them in BK shortly. They are the ones that need our assistance because they are not the ones one's who would have a clue or qualify for government aid.

All the while those that have done nothing but take from the system for generations are sitting on carnival cruise ships for the next 6 mos. or in luxury apartments still collecting welfare checks and food stamps..not looking for work.

How do we find and help those families that have paid into the system? The ones that truly need and deserve our assistance. The ones like all of us that.

X's Summer

-- Modified on 9/6/2005 6:43:08 PM

...I'm afraid he refers to himself.  The blog's subtitle is "An Objectivist Review," meaning that Tracinski is a follower of Ayn Rand, a mid-Twentieth Century author of thick, bad novels who thought herself a philosopher.  Rand attracted a crew of adherents who believed her, and who called themselves "Objectivists."  (Rand's "philosophy" was a shopworn combination of Adam Smith's economics and Herbert Spencer's social Darwinism.)  

Tracinski's article contains three references to outside sources, not counting the reference to his own wife: one to the Washington Times, the Moonie newspaper; another to the Fox News Channel, a notoriously right-wing organization; and a third to the Toronto Globe and Mail, a REAL newspaper.  He cites the Globe and Mail article with disapproval.

Do I have to say more?



-- Modified on 9/7/2005 3:14:44 PM

-- Modified on 9/7/2005 3:20:22 PM

hear your words of wisdom.

...idiotic to blame "the welfare state" for what's been happening in New Orleans.  This is like blaming "the Zeitgeist" for the collapse of Weimar Germany and the rise of Nazism.  The article in question also blames the victims, a traditional right-wing posture.  This is quite the kind of thing you'd expect from an Ayn Randroid, because "Objectivism" is nothing more than a pastiche of discredited economic and social theories that were last current around the late Nineteenth Century, when they were used to justify that era's monopoly capitalism.  I don't know Robert Tracinski, but a guy who calls HIMSELF an intellectual seems like a genuine asswipe to me.  This intellectual's "authorities" consist of Fox News and Sun Myung Moon's private newspaper.  When someone who gets his philosophy from Ayn Rand and his news from Fox and the Moonies tells me that our "welfare state" has debased the (mostly African-American) poor of New Orleans into savages who have largely brought their troubles on themselves, my response is that he is full of shit.  I apologize for not having made my point with sufficient clarity the first time.    

-- Modified on 9/7/2005 5:44:24 PM

An education system is only as good as the economy around it.  For example: in Cuba, they have doctors, scientists and engineers driving the cabs and waiting the tables for about 10 cents an hour.  It's has one of the highest literacy rates in the world.  In case you think that's a special case, the same goes for India.  It has some of the best technical schools in the world.  However, until recently, if you were educated in India, the only way you had a future was to leave.  

We emphasize education a lot in this country, and we get very little out of it.  There are a few culprits that sabotage it, so that it's not as effective as it could be, I think (see my post on the LA board "IMHO welfare doesn't explain it).  But for the most part, I think we're starting with the wrong actions on the wrong people, so we never get past the start.

Don't get me wrong, the first principle I live by is: Respect Children.  Nevertheless, I think the problem might be that we're putting too much emphasis on educating children.  Money for schools is indeed very important, but above a certain amount, if other important things in society are neglected, it makes no difference; it just gets lost in corruption.

Rather trying so hard to educate the children with no success, I would reach out to the parents.  Instead of integrating the schools, we should be emphasizing the integration of the adults.  The African Americans suffer most from isolation from the other communities, and grow up through adolescence feeling like they're in a war and beseiged.  It's arguable whether the opportunities for them are there, the point is, IMHO, I don't believe that they believe that the opportunities are really there.  They don't see their homes improve when Mom's away working; they don't see their neighborhoods improving.  

We wonder why in "the good ol' days" education worked and now it's failing? IMHO because in the good ol' days a parent worked and things for the family got better eventually.  Now, either both Mom and Dad work, or  Mom works all the time and things do not get better.  If she's home on welfare, at least she's there, and the children are happier, but things still don't get better.

This more than anything, for children that despite everything they are told, they conclude that school is hard and it won't improve their lot.  Given the fact that what they're taught seems to have little to do with the life they're compelled to lead, and that the teachers emphasizing education often don't look too successful themselves, of course they can't take school seriously.  Many give up on it.

We have enough money in education.  Instead, I suggest four things: stop the friggin' drug war,  persuade poor parents who have small children to throw the TV's out of the home, let them start businesses easily the way Hong Kong does-- yes, even if the business is recreational drugs or prostitution, and most of all, have adults of other ethicities volunteer to go into their neighborhoods and  meet them regularly and get to be friends with some of them.  The last one, specifically, so they feel less like they're surrounded by and occupying army of a hostile power.