I was rummaging through an old College Sociology text & found a chart by the famed sociologist Robert Merton. He categorizes five societal types & their modes of adapting to society by their acceptance or non-acceptance of culturally approved goals & means : the conformist, the ritualist, the retreatist, the rebel & the innovator. According to the text, providers are categorized as "innovators" : " innovation occurs when people accept the approved goals but resort to disapproved means. -------- i.e, when a woman wants to earn money but becomes a callgirl".
So how about it, folks ? Do you think providers are "innovators/non conformists" ? Some of the greatest figures in history have been innovators/non-conformists. Does the innovator tag also apply to hobbyists ?
I think feedback on this topic will be very interesting.
-- Modified on 5/27/2008 8:48:02 AM
-- Modified on 5/27/2008 8:54:13 AM
providing is not new - anyone who thinks it is - has his/her head up their asses. Innovative? a really innovative way of treating the 'hobby' was locking women up in a temple and having ritual sex with them.... and calling it 'worship' as was done is some societies.
What is now new is the use of modern technology to advertise the 'services' and the use of forums such as this one for males to anonymously 'compare notes.' Is even that new? I suspect not as there was (and probably still is) a referral method where to see certain providers, one had to be referred (or vouched for).
Still, it never ceases to amaze me how "public" folk look down on the hobby... hee hee, even Rush Limbaugh imbibes... heck, when caught with the Viagra - he was NOT married.... so much for saving it till marriage.... lol! What does society fear from decriminalization? lots...
For one thing, it would probably change divorce forever.
This is pretty much plagiarized, but here is a break down of the five types:
Conformity is the attaining of societal goals by societal accepted means.
Innovation is the attaining of those goals in unaccepted ways.
Ritualism is the acceptance of the means but the forfeit of the goals.
Retreatism is the rejection of both the means and the goals.
Rebellion is a combination of rejection of societal goals and means and a substitution of other goals and means.
~~~~
The word "innovative," in Merton's context, does not mean our idea of "new, creative or advanced."
So yes, while many providers are innovative in attaining the goals (financial stabilility, et al) by an alternate means, there are a few of us who are in it for a whole different reason.
My fellow rebels---I salute you! :p
ok, so now you've my attention... I suspect that there are many providers who are in this for more than $.... as many who I have met could achieve financial stability through other means... the ladies that I like the most all have the following in common...
they all treat the encounters as true dates...
They all have definite ideas and concepts of what they wish to obtain from the encounter (other than the envelop)
Most have at least a college education...
Many are romantic at heart - but recognize the rarity of a true long lasting bond.
and many like variety as much as the guys...
Intelligent? there is not one of the providers that I have encountered who has a performance score of 7 or more who is not intelligent... regardless of their education. They are a smart, engaging and interesting group of people... my regret - that I could not have them over to my house for a party... and invite some folk who would NOT know their occupations... they would be hard pressed to tell me what this group of intelligent and highly motivated women do for a living....
Kinda like the classic wine test... take bottles of wine - from various vineyards, take the lables off, and serve them with a meal... guarantee most - in that setting - have difficulty in placing the region - price and style of wine.... (there are those who can, but not most)....
Why I like the hobby as it exists now? Because of the ladies in it... they are indeed some of the nicest and most interesting people I know...
Thanks.
The men I've met are some of the nicest and most interesting people I know.
Hugs.
I don't see how you can apply either term to it.
I have a feeling that I'm participating on the wrong board sometimes, as the opportunity for great discussions seem to be overridden by....well....*other* discussions.
That said, as far as "the" profession being the "world's oldest" profession, I'm curious as to how that term came to be. I have much to share but opt to wait until someone responds.
(hopefully)
Any thoughts?
I took a sexual behaviors class as an elective once and the professor turned it into more of a human sexuality and how that applies to us type of class. We had all these animal films and texts (aside from a very large text on human sexuality.)
One thing I thought was very telling was the way the bonobos interacted, who are apparently our closest relatives. At feeding time, if someone wanted to curry favor or wanted food and they were not ranked high enough to attain access to the bits of morsels, they would offer themselves sexually to the top ranking bonobos or those providing the sustenance. Their culture was quite sexual, though... they did it all the time, for fun, for food, for shelter, everything and they did it m/f, f/f, solo, every which way- upside down, on the ground, stretched around, every way they could manuever.
I see some distinct parallels to human behaviors because there was a necessity that women could not provide for themselves, women have often turned to this profession, whether it was a one time thing or a real profession.
Katie
Assuming the female or whatever gender is the weaker one, behaviours as these can be understood.
I am wondering, however, why it is assumed that it is the world's oldest profession when there are many of us who are not weak.
Weren't the females responsible for raising the children, and the males responsible for bringing home the food? Wouldn't that make hunting and gathering the oldest profession?
Rebel to rebel and xo,
S.
If you look at the ladies on these boards, and read the things that they write, you'll find that most are extremely strong willed individuals.
I think you'd also find that if men had to juggle raising children, maintaining households, and full time careers, most would fail, at least to some degree. I don't see women as the weaker sex at all. That goes right back to the first woman I knew, my mother. She was the one who ran the entire family, and I think women today are even stronger.
Back then we were in egalitarian band communities. It was supposed to be share and share alike, but it wasn't. Men dominated bc of their strength and women were left behind with the children, though they worked their asses off gathering. (Men didn't bring home the meat THAT often.) However, men still took a lion's share of the food, leaving the woman to share hers with her young. Because we were the nurturers and the mothers with a string of kids and a guy who only was around the first few years until the child survived, women largely relied upon others to feed themselves. That's serial monogamy for ya'.
Katie
isn't a profession. It's survival. Just like having sex in exchange for a man (husband) to protect, clothe, and keep a woman was once survival. She simply could not live without a man (family member or husband) taking care of her.
Nowadays, women are free to earn their own money and live independently. They can have sex and gain nothing material in return-- perfectly acceptable. They can be married and refuse sex (marital rape is now a crime). Choosing sex work, the kind escorts do, is a relatively new profession, as I see it. For a woman, sex is no longer her main means of survival.
I believe that thinking for myself and making my own choices instead of confirming to the masses is how I choose to live my life. Thus, finding myself in this industry it is highly important that I am able to stand firm in my convictions especially when the "mass public" points fingers at us and calls us all sorts of negative names and puts labels on us that we do not deserve. I'm proud of all my sisters who are able to make choices to live for themselves rather than be dictated by others.--Sitara
So I can't tell you where the term originated from. The point of my original response was simply that the practice of exchanging money for sex has been around for a very long time which, IMHO, does not qualify those who participate as being either innovators or non-conformists. As far as the question of weakness that you raised in a later post, those words never came from my mouth! The women I have known in this hobby are anything but weak. By and large they are strong, intelligent and very self-aware. I actually find a much higher level of courage and honesty dealing with women that I am involved with in the hobby than I do with many civvie ladies.
I'm no historian, but I'm a Lit guy. Kipling used this phrase in ON THE CITY WALL:
"Lalun is a member of the most ancient profession in the world. Lilith was her very-great-grandmamma, and that was before the days of Eve as every one knows. In the West, people say rude things about Lalun's profession, and write lectures about it, and distribute the lectures to young persons in order that Morality may be preserved. In the East where the profession is hereditary, descending from mother to daughter,
nobody writes lectures or takes any notice; and that is a distinct proof of the inability of the East to manage its own affairs."
This was written in the 19th century, and I have no doubt that this was already in use before that time.
And others have noted, we're not the only primates who exchange in sexual commerce -- so it's not even a uniquely human concept.
Non-conformists, yes, although I think a lot of providers are not so much total non-conformists as women who don't conform to a somewhat unreasonable societal ban on what is basically a victim less "crime" between 2 adults with free-will
Innovatators? Well honestly, its the worlds oldest profession and it doesn't take a lot of innovation to take the equipment you have and fill a male need.
I think many of us are brilliant, funny, strong, compassionate women, but not because we are in this business
No offense to any ladies, but we aren't exactly re-inventing the wheel
I think in the past "work" was directly related to meeting needs- ie. getting food to eat (hunting/gathering), building shelter, gathering firewood, finding water, etc. This was not necessarily a profession because if was a direct and basic way of meeting needs. Perhaps this phrase is used to connote the idea of "profession" as something done, unrelated to these basics (food/water/shelter) to more indirectly provide for them? Of course over time this has become more and more indirect, with currency and technology and whatnot, but providing does seem to be one of the oldest "indirect" means of getting basic needs, which is what I consider a "profession."
-- Modified on 5/28/2008 6:49:54 AM
Yes, I do agree with this concept. I think it applies within both the innovation category and also the rebellion category. Providing is an innovative way to achieve common ends- financial security, food and shelter, etc. But I also think it is a means to an unconventional end, goals and outcomes that are not proscribed by society but are sought and prioritized by many providers, each for her own reason, fitting also into the "rebel" category. For example, the idea that it is a way to explore one's sexuality, to expand one's knowledge of humanity, to extricate oneself from the bullshit that is generally expected of one.. I think it has elements of both, and that it is a very interesting topic- obviously to be perceived and interpreted differently on an individual basis, but at least for myself and my reasons for providing, they both apply.
Marea : interesting point,though the late sciologist Robert Merton would say that the innovator & rebel categories are mutually exclusive ( rebels reject the goal of personal wealth, something most providers would balk at ).
However, perhaps Merton's categorizations are now outdated & too black & white----perhaps there could be a blending between the innovator &
rebel categories.
Once again, interesting idea you brought up.
-- Modified on 5/28/2008 7:54:33 AM
-- Modified on 5/28/2008 7:56:23 AM
self delete
-- Modified on 5/28/2008 6:56:12 AM
-- Modified on 5/28/2008 6:56:27 AM