Just whatever you do, DO NOT eat the food. The only restaurant food besides fast food that I can think of that is any worse than Applebee's is Buffalo Wild Wings. EVERYTHING in there tastes like it was microwaved. Microwave ovens are very useful for doing many things, actually cooking something is not one of them.
I am not a food snob, I really am not. I can absolutely enjoy a meal in a greasy spoon, diner or bar, but I draw the line at microwaved, precooked, prepackaged food that comes out of a box. The one good thing I can say about Applebee's is that most of them serve Don Julio and not just Patron. It doesn't make the food taste any better, but it most definitely makes the experience better.You know that nut bar who posted recently about scamming Sugar Babies got me thinking about something.
A few of the responders felt that his actions constituted RAPE. Which to me seems a little extreme, but I will follow that reasoning for a bit. It's willful deception and we can all agree that the woman gave her consent to her sugar daddy under certain conditions, and those conditions weren't met. I will at least follow that logic.
What I want to bring up here is another form of what I would call a form of rape. i.e. RAPING MY WALLET.
I don't know what it is with me and providers in their 20's. But here are two scenarios that occurred within the last 4 months:
Provider 1: On only my second visit with her offered or asked the following:
- Come visit her in her city.
- Go on a trip to Brazil with her and meet her family.
Provider 2: On only the first visit, offers up the following:
- Makes me dinner
- Asks me if I want to go ice skating with her
- Asks me to come work out with her at her gym the next day.
Now what did each of these providers have in common?
1) In their 20's
2) Trying to establish themselves and in need of positive reviews to bump their average TER ratings up.
Now as far as this whole traveling to Brazil thing ... let's just say ... never happened. 
Now as to the flying to her city thing? Totally happened. And I wound up paying full price for an overnight.
Now on to provider #2 ... Did I get a call from her the next day? Yes. Did it involve us getting on our exercise clothes? Not exactly. Try "I am too hung over, can we do it another time?" And what do I think my odds are of strapping on the ice skates with her? If I'm a betting man, I'm putting my money on "NOT GOING TO HAPPEN."
So my question is ... has my wallet been subjected to a form of non-consent? Let's break this down. If I choose to pay for sex again with either of these providers, and I am giving my consent under the pretense that I am somehow special and worthy of all of these romantic dates and off-the-clock time to her ... I am offering my consent to sex under that pretense. If she doesn't follow through on her end of the bargain, then then my consent is no longer valid.
In other words, I did not agree to, nor offer my consent for sexual activity under the understanding that I would be given the "bait and switch." I gave my consent under different pretenses. Maybe not financial pretenses, but emotional pretenses. And personally, I feel that this is possibly the worst form of non-consent. Because not only am I now out of money that I otherwise wouldn't have spent ... but I was also robbed of the friendship or emotional aspect of the relationship that was moreless "promised," or at least offered up as part of the package.
Thoughts?
I thought you were going to say the pics weren't a true representation of the ladies you saw.
Since that's not case did you have a good time with both providers?
If so that's the main thing.
If they promised to see you outside of this arena and didn't go through with it that's their decision.
Did you book them on the pretense of the free time afterwards or were you just looking for a good time?
If you had the good time and they were as advertised I don't understand the bait and switch comment.
-- Modified on 1/14/2016 2:09:36 AM
What I am trying to do is draw a parallel between my experience and the scammed sugar baby thread several posts below.
Would you say that, in the case of the sugar baby who got scammed ... that it's okay, so long as she "had a good time" with the lowlife dick head who agreed to give her $500 for a night of copulation? I mean, if all that matters is that I had a good time, then I suppose you could say that it's okay if Charlie Sheen gave his "Goddesses" AIDS (which he didn't, but let's pretend), because the "had a good time?"
Yes, I'm way over-thinking this, but I am trying to work out the logical reasoning. What I'm getting at is that there are many sexual situations where I feel have bee duped to one degree or another, and where I wouldn't say I actually gave my full consent, given the situation.
...and did not, under any circumstances, have to interact with those providers after your arranged upon and paid-for time was completed. Nor were they under any obligation to see you after the initial first date.
If your "bait and switch" comment is referring to the fact that you thought you were getting a no-strings attached experience that ended up being one in which there possibly could be strings, I can understand that. But the phrase "bait and switch" isn't the best phrase for that; instead, you're simply seeing providers who have incredibly bad boundaries and can't separate work life from personal life. Or, are you irritated that they offered additional OTC time and then, in the case of one, rescinded the offer?
If you want to equate bad boundaries to the sugar baby rip-off discussion, that would be the dude's issue. But i wouldn't call what that person did "bad boundaries"; what that person did was intentional non-payment for services rendered. Had the lady known she was going to be significantly underpaid, she'd have never had sex with him, so the entire situation was coercive.
Are you saying, had you known that these girls were going to "catch feelings" or whatever phrase you might like to use, you'd have never seen them? Don't get me wrong; it's one thing to catch feelings or really enjoy your time with a client. It's a thing that happens. But knowing how to handle that appropriately is something that kind-of takes time to learn, and you can't preemptively know how you're going to feel about a client until you actually meet.
TL;DR
I don't know what your actual complaint is concerning the experiences you had, and in order to offer a more coherent response, I need to understand what you're actually complaining about.
our reasoning applied to this situation:
Sugar-baby duouchebag situation: Had the lady known she was going to be significantly underpaid, she might not have had sex with him, so the situation was coercive.
My situation: Had I known that she wasn't being sincere about things like having dinner together and other friendship-level activities ... then I probably would have chosen another provider, or might have opted to dave my money altogether.
I fail to see the difference in these situations. In both cases there was a mutual understanding about what each party was getting out of the exchange. Both cases are basically "Sugar Baby" situations when you really boil them down, because there is more than just a simple exchange of sex for money.
If it were just a simple matter of sex for money, it would be a very clear-cut thing, right? But the waters get murkier when you're entering a SD/SB situation because there is an implication of other things. There is the promise of money and sex, but there is also the promise of companionship and friendship. That is a very important component to the deal. It's not always just about sex or money -- there are more obligations on both sides
Forgetting legality for just a second, the dirtbag had an agreement for a certain amount of BCD for a set amount of money, and just like a dine and dasher he reneged on that agreement.
You OTOH, did not have the agreement for all the OTC time and activities "prior" to booking your appointment/s those offers were made during the appointment where you got all you agreed to. Now if these girls had made those promises in order to entice you into the appointment to begin with, you would have at least somewhat of a case, but as you describe the events and the timelines, you aren't even close.
You got what you paid for, she did not get paid for what she provided. Big difference, sorry.
what gag said X 100
You make a good point and I agree.
But that's not the while story.
In both cases there were follow up sessions or invites for follow-up sessions, with the understanding that OTC time was already part if the package and "built in" moreless.
I suppose I could be forceful and demand we go ice skating or bar hopping but who gives a fuck at that point? I'm not interested in begging for frienship.
So I cut my very minor losses. Still pisses me off because now I feel like I have CHUMP written on my forehead.
You OTOH, did not have the agreement for all the OTC time and activities "prior" to booking your appointment/s those offers were made during the appointment where you got all you agreed to. Now if these girls had made those promises in order to entice you into the appointment to begin with, you would have at least somewhat of a case, but as you describe the events and the timelines, you aren't even close.
You got what you paid for, she did not get paid for what she provided. Big difference, sorry.
Bait and switch = Scam Not wanting to pay for services is another story.
what jayda said X 100.
I'll respond with what I was going to say before I read your ad.
Most twenty somethings do not post their own ads, and most likely want to maintain some anonymity.
Having read your post, when do these things happen?
They wiggled the bait. You didn't bite. Quite sensibly, you walked away unscathed. (Except for feeling that you were somehow cheated enough to post about it.
If you have no interest in the extracurricular activities these gals are offering, just politely decline and suggest that a simple session of a certain time limit is what you seek.
If for some strange reason they insist, then that's a red light and you should lose their number.
I have gotten involved in plenty of extracurricular activities myself over the years, but with gals I had come to know for at least a year or so, and usually longer than that. It can be interesting and often rewarding, but there are some lulus of pitfalls in there too
The traditional bait and switch is usually used in the context of fake photos or older photos. I do, however, understand what you mean. Correct me if I am wrong...
You are saying that you are booking basically because they offered you dinner or something that was off the clock. You book with them again because you are expecting OTC time before your actual session begins. Would you have known that they were not going ice skating with you or cooking you dinner for free you would have most likely not seen them again? Am I right? or you are upset that they offered you a friendship base activity and backed out?
I'm in my 20's and I believe it has nothing to do with age. My word means everything to me, if i tell you come back I will make you dinner that means come back book a session and the time that it takes for me to cook (which most likely the meal would be done before you got there) and eat would not be on your time. My word means everything to me, it's stronger than any written contract, however, some people will tell you anything for you to book again. Why would you stay if she promised you a service in exchange for you to book her again and doesn't deliver, then walk out the door why condone that? I wouldn't. As far as her telling you travel to my city unless she specified that if you traveled to her she would give you a discount then I don't comprehend what the problem is.
As a provider I'm assuring you that if you are getting OTC time you will know it. If I am asking you to travel to my city or tell you that I'm making you dinner I will always add to the end of the sentence "Hey, it's on me" if those words aren't mentioned once then you shouldn't feel as if they scammed you. They say let's do this, let's do that because they want you to book again and for you to know that after sex you can also do a fun activity or basically saying that they are great in bed but there's more to them then sex.
Know the nature of the industry and the beast, and also put 2 and 2 together. They are telling or offering you all these things after the 1st or 2nd encounter (Not that it matters) 2 meetings isn't enough to take a trip with someone anywhere or to introduce you to their parents. Right there you can see the red flag.
On your part you are much smarter than this and have been around longer. It's like seeing a snake on the ground picking it up and getting upset because it bites you. You knew it was a snake before you picked it up didn't you? So why the huge surprise when it bites you?
The same as some hookers are constantly having issues with their johns and others seem to quietly and happily go about their lives without any of the constant drama that surrounds some people.
I see mainly "20 somethings" and I rarely if ever go through any of the crap that some of these guys seem to go through on a rather regular basis, which leads me to believe it's "them" who have the problem, not the women/men that they see.
You paid full MSRP for an overnight. Ugh...fuck...ugh.
It's bad enough to do so generally but to do so during "National Hooker Sales Extravaganza" month is a bit over the top, wouldn't you agree?
I mean all that fine beaver is marked down after the post holiday malaise. I have an extra coupon for you if you aren't to scared to present it upon fucking.
Looky here, dealing with these wacky twenty something's is a never ending head ache, agree dat, but the payoff when you get passed her 15 question verification pre-OTC lunch is fkin off the charts.
And since she now knows, I guess I can tell you too.
My favorite color is blue and my biggest goal in life is to become even filthier rich than I am right now.
What do you expect out of a girl in her Teens or early 20's....Hello! What do you expect, with age comes wisdom It's like expecting an intellectual conversation with an 18 year old. Come on guys, you want to f*ck with young young girls you get what you deserve let's be for real now. You can't complain about that, it's ludicrous. What are you expecting scholars? Most(not all) of these girls haven't set foot in a classroom, they know what college is because they've seen the commercials, however, you expect them to have a business mind and not try to get the most for the least.
There are a million providers in their 30s that look better than some girls I work with in the agency that are 19 and 20 and I can assure you are better in bed as well as take care of themselves.
I hate to see when men are so surprised, or when they write in a review "Well yeah she was 18 but we had nothing to talk about" or "She was 20 but the more she spoke the more I headed towards the door" what are you surprised about? You are booking a girl that is how much younger than you and you are expecting her to be business savy, keep her word, great sex and some cuddle time afterwards....come on.
That's like me going to Applebee's and expecting an overtop steak, am I thinking realistically?
Right now, it's Appleby's.
Maybe you have missed my posts. Beauty and friendliness moves me in this world and intellectual stimulation is nice, but not necessary.
I don't work in generalities. I deal with indiduals. The current SB I am with has massive potential. She is willing to experiment and let me teach her things.,what more can I ask?
She is sweet, kind, hot, and fun loving. Winning! Lol
Different strokes I guess Rox. One day I'll take you to Appleby's and shit....I'll buy. Lol
I suppose you are right with that. Applebees after going to Peter Luggers I wouldn't set foot in Applebees not even if I was getting paid, lol
that they switched vendors.
Just whatever you do, DO NOT eat the food. The only restaurant food besides fast food that I can think of that is any worse than Applebee's is Buffalo Wild Wings. EVERYTHING in there tastes like it was microwaved. Microwave ovens are very useful for doing many things, actually cooking something is not one of them.
I am not a food snob, I really am not. I can absolutely enjoy a meal in a greasy spoon, diner or bar, but I draw the line at microwaved, precooked, prepackaged food that comes out of a box. The one good thing I can say about Applebee's is that most of them serve Don Julio and not just Patron. It doesn't make the food taste any better, but it most definitely makes the experience better.
and yes, with enough tequila virtually anything looks appetizing.
Don't go to the zoo with GaG.
EVER.
We can call it “Rhesus Pieces”
With the oil market tanking, he may look to primates for money.
Just make sure it wasn't sacrificed to Satan.
Love Peter Luger's. Best steak ever!!
our logic applied to this thread:
"I SHOULD KNOW BETTER than to book with a 20-something girl and expect her to say what she means, and to be fully upfront."
The same logic if applied to the Sugar Baby Scammer thread:
"THE SB SHOULD KNOW BETTER than to trust a strange older man she just met off SA."
In both cases, a person engaged in sexual activity under a false pretense, that they might not have engaged in otherwise. And didn't receive the value they were expecting. Yet, when it happened to me in my situation, it was still consenting. But in the case of the scammed sugar baby, it supposedly wasn't consenting.
I'm trying to figure out what the difference is. According to you, what matters is the enjoyment. Perhaps if a woman wants to press charges for rape, one of the questions the investigators should ask is "Did you enjoy it?"
I'm just posing the question
I never said that it was considered raped on the SB thread, let's established that first hand. Secondly that makes no sense as you know what you were getting yourself into. She charges a rate that's the rate, she tells you dinner and lets go here and there that's fine but did she specify it was free that's the question?
As far as the SB thread no correlation as the girl had a set price and the idiot scammed her of her money. Him being around the block several times, he knew what he was doing she on the other hand was young and you can't fault her for that. She provided him with what they had agreed on, dinner and sex. He scammed her out of 450 bucks. Whether the parties enjoyed it or not doesn't matter you are paying for a service I am providing. I can understand you getting upset if she is promising you something and not delivering it, fine that I get. We live in a world of semantics, if she didn't say it was on her then don't assume it was on her. You can not expect too much from a girl that young, most likely like a car salesman they will say anything for you to come back. The same way you don't believe a car salesman is the same you should look at that situation. Are there exceptions to the rule of course but you have been around long enough to be able to catch things like this. If you didn't have a good time don't go back and just ignore her, she will get the picture and most likely learn.
Expectations lead to disappointment, see everything as face value. Have several encounters with people to determine their true colors. If that was me I would have not seen her again and also I would have never thought to meet anyone of my clients parents that is a red flag. I'm a prostitute you want me to introduce you to my parents or I meet yours while I'm sleeping with other people, If a man tells me that, that is an indication that he is taking things to a whole other level and perhaps that he isn't right in the head. I can't see why anyone would make that kind of proposition and not to pick on you I can't see who would actually believe that.
will respectfully disagree.
I felt that, in both cases, there was a promise made on her part. There was an expectation that my purchase would include some level of companionship beyond the base transaction. Sort of like the the late night infomercials where they say "Act now, and you will receive a matching set of knives and a toaster absolutely free."
In both cases, there was a clear expectation for what each party would be receiving. And in each case, the thing that was promised wasn't delivered. And in both cases, the decision to consent would have probably been different if we had known that we wouldn't receive those things we were told we would receive
My advice to you my friend is to take things with a grain of salt. I wanted to spend OTC time with my first regular ever (Before he turned me off completely with a remark he made, but that's a different story) you know how many times i told him 3x, I offered him an overnighter FREE OF CHARGE 3X (Never again will I do that) when he texted me I answered back ASAP, when he wanted to meet me at a bar for an encounter I showed up an hour earlier OTC and didn't tell him, those are the best surprises. Told him when I was there and his face lit up because he already knew. So basically, what I'm saying is when a woman that is truly interested in you not only in your returning business but in spending time with tells you she wants you to spend the night or she wants to fly with you somewhere... she will let you know. Trust me you will know it. She will go out of her way to tell you , to write you, to text you. The minute you text her she will throw hints, let's just say you will know it. So don't ever let this situation happen to you again just because a provider makes a passive remark. It's okay, we all learn our lessons the hard way God knows I have.
If a guy in an arrangement site is for real or not.
I'm sorry, but there are tell tale signs when a potential sugar daddy is being dishonest.
And just as with my situation, girls need to learn to be in the lookout for scum bagz lime in the other thread.
It took me a minute to actually figure out what the hell you were actually complaining about.
So, the equation is this:
girl doesn't follow through on promise of OTC time= raping of your wallet
Well, since you already paid prior to the promise of OTC time, this is nonsense. Any decision you make after the fact is up to you. You decided to fly out and pay full price for an overnight with lady #1. Lady #2 didn't actually cost you any additional cash.
And please. Equating the above to what happened to the sugar baby rip-off is nonsensical. That man fully took advantage of that girl, plain and simple. He took advantage of her because she was new. He knew exactly what he was doing, and had sex with her under completely false pretenses. He told her, prior to the date happening, that he was going to give her an agreed upon sum, and then did not. She had sex with that man under false pretenses.
You, on the other hand, didn't have sex with these women under false pretenses. You paid for your initial encounter with them, and at some point during that encounter, they offered OTC time in some form or another. Since OTC time is indeed OTC, they're not under any obligation. You decided to see one woman again, and paid full price for an overnight with her. You were under no obligation to do so. Not to mention, why would you fly to her town and pay full price for an overnight with the promise of OTC time afterwards? If she were going to give you OTC time, she should have done so as part of the overnight deal. But it didn't work out that way. She told you how much it would cost, and you obliged to pay that cost. Nothing was coercive.
You think that these women somehow owe you something. They don't. Girl #1 doesnt owe you OTC time simply because you flew out to see her and paid full price for an overnight. The other one doesn't owe you a gym date simply because she mentioned it after your initial date.
Women don't owe you anything, regardless if you've paid them or not. Women don't owe you anything, ever.
ou see a very clear difference here. You're looking at this as a simple agreement. Guy pays girl for sex. He gets sex. She gets money. Both sides are happy. Done.
And I agree with you on this for the most part. I just wanted to see how you and others felt about it.
I see the situations as being more nuanced, because I see a difference between Sugar-babying and prostitutes. IN BOTH CASES, meaning both my situation and the Sugar Baby situation ... I feel that there is a promise that goes beyond the sex and money thing. I feel that I was coerced in to thinking that I was entering more of a sugar baby situation with both of these providers. I felt there was a promise also of some companionship and friendship, and that would be part of the "package deal" I was getting. Part of the whole experience.
And I didn't receive that. So I feel like I was coerced in a similar manner that the Sugar Baby was coerced. She was made to think she would be receiving something monetarily which she didn't receive. I thought I would be receiving something emotional or friendship-based that I didn't receive.
That's all. But I appreciate your take on things. And I mostly agree with you, but not entirely
you compare two situations which is just like comparing apples with oranges. Yes, they both fall in the fruit category...........BUT.........
In the end........it all boils down to control. The perp who cheated the SB and should have his balls cut off.........well.......he had complete control.........had a contract with the SB (an offer, an acceptance, and something exchanged........look it up in any contract law publication) and ripped her off unknowingly.
In your case........you truly were led on.........the business ethics of these two ladies are definitely an issue.......but........you could have sniffed it out........and had complete control to follow through on their proposals or not. They fed off of an expectation that we hobbyists are usually capable of avoiding...........by maintaining the proper perspective of our business relationship.
You may also wonder........what role did you have in all of this........something about you made them think they could lead you on..........and ultimately, they were both right?
You had control of both outcomes and could have backed out at any point. You lost the client/service provider perspective and were sucked in as a result. Your lady friends did not offer you something SPECIFIC for a SPECIFIC fee........and when things escalated to an unexpected cost point, you could have backed out but ultimately decided to pay for the updated service. Not honest, not ideal........they forced you to think with your little head.........but........you always had control and accepted.
Conversely, the SB was falsely assured and trusted the perp would come through on his end after she came through on hers. He was always in control and used this control to deceive and cheat her! Wish I knew him........would love to spend just 10 minutes in a very private setting with him and show him male chivalry is NOT dead
unless the providers led you to believe that the dinner, ice skating, vacation etc were all part of the package BEFORE the date. It doesn't seem like that is the case in your situation and therefore, you are comparing apples to oranges.
If the guy from the other thread paid her in full, and then told the sugar baby that he was gonna give her an extra $1000 just for "being her" and not follow through on it; then the two situations would be comparable. In that case the sugar baby would have received what she expected before going through with the date, just like you received what you expected before going through with your date.
Or we can change the events that transpired in your date instead to make the situations comparable.
If the providers started a session with you and perhaps began a bj and then used the "I forgot the condoms" trick, then you could compare that to the situation in the other thread. The provider would have partially performed the services expected, just like that guy gave the sugar baby partial payment.
So, you are mad because your provider didn't follow through on some promised otc time? where is the consideration? Sorry but I don't feel sorry for you, just like I wouldn't feel sorry for an escort that had a client reneg on tip or gift that was promised on top of her rate.
-- Modified on 1/14/2016 2:41:06 PM