Just blowing off some steam folks but I think this addresses a real and rather large problem.
There have been numerous posts on this board as well as others in which many if not most/all the providers view themselves as "professional" in their behavior. My experience to date would indicate otherwise in the main. Granted there are always exceptions to the rule, and for those of you who truly fit this "professional" category, my compliments. But I think that is just it, you are the EXCEPTION to the rule.
I have been hobbying for about a year now and of the 14 - 15 providers I have had contact with, I would identify only 3 as acting truly professional in their behavior. I am not talking about newbies to the provider community or gals "under the radar". I am taking about the better established, higher end women with sometimes elaborate web sites and fairly well reviewed.
Think some of you gals would be better off in the political arena rather than here with some of the most lame excuses for your behavior that I have heard, but most of which offer plausible deny-ability possibilities. Some examples:
1. "I never got your e-mail/phone call!" - Possible, sure - but most likely not of high probability. Seems like everyone else I contact gets the mail or phone message.
2. "I DID respond to your e-mail/phone call!" - Again possible but not probable. Haven't had any similar problems getting e-mail from friends, family or business associates and the answering machine works just fine. So do my ears and brain and if I talked to you I would remember it.
3. "Call me back at xxx time" - you call back at the appointed hour, no answer. You leave a message - no return phone call for the rest of the day or ever. From here you can go back to Number 1 above if you do re-establish contact and start the circle all over again if you are dumb enough to.
4. "Call me when you get here and I will give you the room number" - you call and guess what - no answer - return home and go back to Number 1 and start again if you wish.
5. You've confirmed an outcall appointment by phone or e-mail - no show and no answer when you call to find out what is going on. Of course if you do hear from her, she called or wrote to cancel earlier in the day. Go back to Number 2 above and begin again.
Now mix in the usual "my car broke down"; "my cell phone batteries went dead"; "my babysitter was late"; "my computer crashed", etc., etc., etc and what do you have? A bunch of BULLS---!
I really have to laugh when I hear some of you ladies talk about how busy you all are and how shit happens. Well, I and other hobbyists are busy too but shit does not seem to happen in our lives with as great a frequency as it does in yours. I wonder why that is? Could it be that many of you are not very professional at all?
There are many reasons why my ATF is my ATF. Her professionalism is one of the them. Geography & demographics puts me about 70 miles from most of the local providers. Between the drive time & the cost of fuel "flaking" on the part of the provider is no small inconvenience.
Neither is the inconvenience small to a provider when a hobbyist chooses to demonstrate the same lack of consideration for their time and trouble and "flakes" on them.
It is sad how in each of the ranks of both provider and hobbyist we have among us those with little or no common courtesy or respect for the others time, trouble and welfare.
YKSY.
We've had much discussion about what makes someone GFE, PSE, 'ultimate', 'professional', 'courtesan', etc., etc.
To some, 'professional' is they are not SW's, taking clients off the street or in cars - they actually take calls or emails, and set appointments.
To others, they have a location, instead of a car, or somebody's hotel room - it can be as subjective as anything else. Perhaps professional means they know what they are doing and get paid for it - not some slutty college girl who doesn't even use protection.
Being a 'pro' in one area doesn't automatically mean they are a 'pro' in all areas. Not everybody has common sense, good manners (including telephone), email etiquette, or good, BUSINESS sense. Not everybody feels that this business should include good customer service; not everybody runs it the way they would if it were a retail business that they owned. Not everybody views what they do or why they do what the do the same way so their responses are different.
That's why I wish there was some sort of grading system like hotels and retaurants so that, with all the variables going on, the men could just see the score, and think oh, ok, she's this ___. Of course, the closest and most almost perfect grading system is what we have on TER, but there's only so much one can do. (btw - for some fun reading, check out the thread on the SD board regarding "Debbie's review by jmy68)
And of course, what are women going to say about themselves on their websites? I'm a GFE, professional courtesan here to please you, yada yada yada.
I would love to see a girl's website that said something like "I'm a really flakey, bitchy, picky girl who just wants to make some money. Sometimes I can't find my phone, don't want to answer emails, forget my appts., and want to ditch you but don't know how but if you're cute and we hook up, we might have a good time".
I'm sorry. I don't know what to tell you. It DOES however, happen on both sides of the coin, though. Wish it didn't.
Can you imagine this life without TER?? Ugh. I have to shudder.
You surely have my vote, princess Agree with everything you said..
Mel
I agree that TER is a great resource, but even this sometimes falls short because there is no way that I know of to give a "no-show" review. There is a provider who has great TER reviews, but has twice been the equivilant of a no-show. {"can you wait an hour and a half or two hours" after the agreed upon time, after I had traveled an hour to get to her place. BTW the time was cofirmed to night before!)
Have to admit Sedona, your suggestion to read the review did bring a smile to my face as I read it and some of the steam diminished.
So much of what I read on these boards from providers is how they want respect and courtesy and IMHO so few are willing or able to offer it themselves. Guess you shouldn't expect it if you are not willing or able to give it yourself.
Sure, we could think of this in terms of differing labels or names but damnit, common and basic decency and courtesy should not be hard concepts for any of us to understand.
I would rather deal with a provider who can tell it straight, "I F&$%@# up! Sorry." than to deal with all the bull and dishonesty. Afterall, we all F&$% up sometimes, even me. LOL
And yes, I am sure you are correct that there are some "lame" hobbyists as well. Well shame on them too!
Perhaps if the government regulated the industry and issued licenses to certified GFE Professionals? It could be like other professions, but instead of CPA or DDS it would be Sedona, GFE or PSE. Just a thought...
I can see where unprofessional behavior is frustrating but I'm a little surprised than anyone is suprised when flakiness/unprofessional behavior/whatever... occurs. At the end of the day this is still an illegal activity and that makes everyone just a little paranoid which, I think, leads to some of the erratic behavior. And let's face it, the hobby doesn't generally attract the women who wanted to punch a time card everyday, the freedom from being tied to a 9-5 schedule is part of what draws them to the career to begin with.
That's not to say it's not incredibly frustrating to be on the wrong end of a no show, but I think it's just the nature of the beast. It makes it all the more special when things go right.
Not flaming you but it seems to me that a provider ought not be scheduling an appointment with an individual that she is not comfortable with or has not properly screened. To flake out on an appointment because of a last minute rush of paranoia is unacceptable but you are correct, it happens all the time.
First paragraph - *smile* LOL
The above quote is from your post.
Excellent point. A lot of people believe that providers seem flaky because they have severe emotional problems from having been sexually abused as children, etc, etc. But perhaps the simple truth is that this profession attracts people who are too flaky to hold a "regular" job.
That's not necessarily a bad thing - this career option works for them, and can be a win-win for them and their clients, who benefit from their services, notwithstanding the frustrations of dealing with the behavior described by "Tired of it".
-- Modified on 1/24/2004 11:02:14 AM
One one hand I agree with much of what you say about the level of professionalism on the part of the providers...everything you complain about happens far too often
BUT...given the nature of this place(TER) and that it mostly exists to give the heads-up to the "hobbyist" about gripes we may have about poor providers or to sing the praises about the good ones(to a lesser extent)...we really don't hear so much about the clients who do the same thing to the ladies(unless what the man does is really egregious)
They have the same problems with US as we do with them but due to the nature of the business they can't complain about guys who act like jerks...cancel on them...are not all that hygienic and what have you
WE are relatively anonymous(many of the MEN have multiple aliases here) but the ladies...to keep their names out there have to come in and post with everyone knowing who they are and living and dying by the words they write...if they complain too much about the guys they can get reps as bitches and to be avoided
Just my opinion but if the ladies could post some of their problems with no repercussions you'd hear a LOT more about the poor behavior of the men as well...for example from talking to my own ATF the problem of getting canceled with no warning is MUCH more likely to happen TO the provider than BY the provider but for the ladies it's just a cost of doing business(getting a bunch of cancellations then having to eat the cost of the incall location or barely breaking even if they travel)
Last thing...as far as cancellations go...I personally live far away from any providers and if I travel myself to another city to an appointment and for whatever reason get canceled with little warning I can and do have back up numbers to call of other ladies I might be interested in...compare than to a lady who travels and sets up a location(money out of her own pocket) and gets a slew of cancellations...what is she to do then?
Even if she's lucky enough to get calls replacing those men can she check them out in time to schedule a meeting with the guys without taking too much of a risk in unfamiliar territory?
Even that's assuming she has access to the web to advertise she now has time available and not all of the ladies have that access 24/7
This is not meant as an excuse for those ladies that have a million reasons for being unprofessionable and a record of abuses but to point out we men are not always without blame in this...we just don't hear about it here as often for various reasons
Actually,I've had the opposite experience as "tired of it." I've only been flaked on once and it was by someone that everyone was complaining on the board. I've found that the highly rated girls on TER have been great and considering that we're not talking about going to an accoutant or a doctor, some less than professional behavior is understood.
And thank him.
You are quite right. We only allude that we run into some things, too. We don't indicate the true picture for the very reasons you state - it's almost suicidal.
We all thank you for it.
Still, in keeping in line with tha Author's post, I cringe every time I hear of such un-professional behavior and wish it didn't happen - or that you could know ahead of time. There are many of us who run our business with the highest of standards, if not also for those very reasons.
If I am not mistaken, providers can establish an alias here and it would appear from some of the past posts that many do. I have also seen quite a number of posts complaining about hobbyist behavior and flaking so I guess a lady can chose to do that if she wishes. I understand,, of course, that doing so under her provider name could prove harmful to her but I do think they have a way (alias) to do so here if they wish.
It also hear that there are a number of resources (boards, etc.) that are available to providers where they can share info on clients and client behavior and I feel confident that it is also a place where they may share frustrations as this person is doing here.
These actions you describe take place in the professional world..dont believe me ask any sales rep. there could be any # of reasons they missed an apt..remember..this is still a risky and illegal bussiness much as we all try to put that out of our minds..we are smacked in the face with that reality when you either realize you are alone in a room with a "client" that seemed ok a minute ago but is now losing it..or you here what sound like security in the next room..maybe about to knock on the door where you are with your "client who may be LE.. i did a no show tody..and i feel very justified...I had a 5pm apt..the client said he was very flexible with the time..when I called him at 3pm to get his room info..I asked if we could meet later as there is tons of traffic and I would be heading to him from way out on Boulder highway..as thats where my earleir apt was.."he asked in a rude tone" what am I like # 4 or 5 today"? I tried to laugh it off ..but i know what the implication was..as if I only see one person a day..or as if I would not be as clean at apt #3 as I am at #1..and when he did not want to give me the room info..and wanted me to just call when I arrived..I know too well that that is a way some people will wait and try to see someone else..and if it does not work out if they feel like it when I call they will grace me with their presence..they say "call me when you get here" but wont tell you either there room info or a #...sorry I never called..why because I never arrived...there are way too many NICE people who would like to see me...
First, let me say that the gentleman you refer to was totally rude and inappropriate and I think you would have every reason and right to tell him, "You know, I am just not feeling comfortable with things and I am going to cancel our appointment."
"..and when he did not want to give me the room info..and wanted me to just call when I arrived..I know too well that that is a way some people will wait and try to see someone else..and if it does not work out if they feel like it when I call they will grace me with their presence.."
With reference to your above comments, it seems to me that you were making a bit of an assumption about his motives and intentions which my have been correct or incorrect. If you didn't want to see him based on his earlier comments, that is one thing. But what if you were wrong in your assumption here. Then you have some guy expecting you to show up and you don't.
I guess I just don't understand why a provider just can't call to cancel or change an appointment. You were able to call him, right? So why not call and say something like, "You know, your unwillingness to give me the information I need has made me uncomfortable and I want to cancel the appointment."
What the hell am I missing here ladies?
Because I have had it occur before..you tend to expect the same results with a situation that seems the same..I am too nice to call and say I dont want to see you..I am too afraid someone will then get really mad at be out to get me..seriously..plus he was so flexble at the time when I spoke to him earlier wanting to tell me the room info "as soon as he checked in" thats what he said..now he says'um why dont you just call when your here".I have been in this bussiness for two years and have bent over backward to accomadate people you get to know when someone is going to not show ..or be a tire kicker....some very very nice. I could stay hours extra... you have to have been in this bussiness to know how some clients are..if you even answered the phone at a agency or for a provider for one week..you would be shocked at the things that occur..some things you cant articulate but you feel....you know when someone is going to be a "hard client"certain things they say or ask..I could go on and on..and probably have already gone on and on too much
I understand the intuitive feeling or gut reaction thing based on experience and those things are certainly important, for sure. You offered a little more insight in this writing about communications and interactions between the two of you so I have a better underdstanding of why you felt the way you did.
Megan, I am not putting you down or talking down to you but I don't understand the part about your concern regarding his getting mad and then being out to get you. Don't you think he might be really mad at your flaking on him? So what's the difference?
Don't think being "nice" has much to do with this IMHO. If you are concerned about some guy getting abusive or "over the top" in the phone conversation when you cancel the appointment, you hang up as would be appropriate if the guy is being a jerk 'cause you certainly don't have to put up with that stuff.
I had a really bad experience with my date at the junior prom. You and I are scheduled to go to the senior prom. But ya know, I am having a funny feeling about things all of a sudden. So I just don't show up that night. I am too nice to call and say I dont want to see you. How ya going to feel? Lousy analogy, I know, but I think it makes the point.
I can see where this guy is coming from in a way, maybe it was rude that he asked you what appointment number he was for the day. But you're the one that brags on the boards that you see 6-8 clients per day. you also told him,
"I would be heading to him from way out on Boulder highways thats where my earleir apt was"
Makes you wonder! On top of all that, you end up being another No call/no show. Very unprofessional.
-- Modified on 1/24/2004 1:54:49 AM
the working world, too.
Well, shoot! How many times have we gone to PARTIES and people who not only were going to be there but were supposed to be bringing important things for the party such as chairs, table, the music, etc don't show, don't call??
-- Modified on 1/24/2004 7:47:21 AM
handle well a situation in which they have a bad vibe about a client. They want to just "hide" until the uncomfortable situation goes away, rather than deal with the client in a straightforward, assertive way.
I think you might be right on target here for some number of women who just want the matter to go away. There are guys like this too. But come on, how much assertiveness does it take to pick up the phone, make the call and cancel the appopintment? We are not talking about a face to face discussion or confrontation here. If that is the primary motivating factor at work here for the women who flake, all I can say is GIMME A BREAK and GROW UP!
Any provider who flakes should be outed for every occurance of that deplorable behavior on this board or through some other means established here at TER. Sorry folks but this is the only way we are going to get this stopped IMHO and these flakes out of the business. Think the overall patterns for those doing this on a consistent or regular basis will become evident pretty quickly.
-- Modified on 1/24/2004 12:41:19 PM
Probably the same thing we guys would do - not schedule with them. But of course, you are talking more about a tit for tat thing here, right? Well sorry honey, but this board was originally intended for hobbyists as a way of sharing information. I know the providers in my area know each other well and even socialize on some regular basis and I am very confident that all kinds of information about flaky hobbyists get shared. Fortunately here in a public forum, you get to discover what is being said about you and you have an opportunity to comment or not. In private conversations between providers, we have no idea what is being shared and I personally have had the experience of a provider trashing me with others because I elected to see others rather than have a singular relationship with her.
Anywhooooooooo as far as I remember if this board was just for the men, then I guess we ladies need not post/offer our services, and you can talk to the other men, HONEY Hmmmm..is that a turn on for you? As for hinting that us females here don't have a voice...well most of us are paying members, so doesn't that allow us to speak up/having our voices heard on this forum? HONEY? It sounds like to me, that someone has his head very far up his "worm hole" to take notice that this forum has both females and males, not just one type of gender. HONEY
-- Modified on 1/24/2004 6:57:55 PM
...my use of the term "honey" was condescending and inappropriate and I apologize for that. Sorry!
I fear however that my unfortunate use of the term may have distracted you from what I said in my previous post. Read it again please and if you wish to continue our discussion/debate on the matter, I would be happy to.
I do apologize for becoming defensive. But I do ask a valid question. Just like you made a valid statement, I do understand that. As for debating? Nah. I feel the way I feel, and you will always feel the way you feel. To me, there is no right and wrong. We both just feel passionately from two different points of views. I think it's great when a lady posts a warning about a potential client on the boards, indicating to those who are interested in knowing more, to discreetly inquire by back channeling. What it boils down to is that this is a 2 way street. Men flake out on women all the time. I had it happen to me. I've heard it happen to other ladies in the business. This is not a one side situation. I felt that your post was only coming off one sided, and that is why I was insituating, "what about the men?". Both genders are at fault here, not just one gender. Thanks for clearing up your post
hobbyists can't access where you get to hammer hobbyists to your heart's content.
I guess I'm a pretty lucky guy. My ATF is always on time, thoroughly professional and drop-dead gorgeous...
Firstly, I would just like to say that the weird sh*t has really piled up since I've been away from the board. Just a cursory glance reveals a discussion about hairy shafts (and whether one should shave them); college students selling their bodily fluids, lesbians selling their virginity, providers selling real estate; a moment of silence for Captain Kangaroo, and one for Common Sense. And some middle-aged guy is asking the Board why he feels depressed after seeing providers. I've only been looking for about five minutes, but it's already alot to swallow.
Anyway, back to your post. I can't believe that this sh*t still shocks you. By and large, providers are just about the most fu*ked up bunch of bitc*es imaginable. Girls like Nicole (NOSC) and Sedona are highly prized for a reason -- they are incredibly rare! Not only are they sexy, they're also intelligent, funny, stable, and vaguely normal. Did you think that all the providers would be like this?
I don't know about you, but my experience with providers has NOT done much to boost my overall opinion of them -- cancellations; drug use (in and out of session); eating, smoking, and boozing during the session (unless it's part of my fetish scene LOL); and strange disappearances during which time no contact can be made. Flakey doesn't even begin to describe their typical behavior. Of course, some would argue that I just bring this out in people! Anyway, if you are looking for normal, either look harder (MUCH harder!) or leave the hobby. What else can I say?
-- Modified on 1/25/2004 1:19:19 AM
I do not mean boring. She simply enjoys the physicality of sex, and the excitement of anticipating an encounter with an interesting new person.
Living, rather than existing, is a goal of mine as well. That's a big reason for the mountain climbing all these years.
For the most part, I couldn't agree more. A provider's occupation does not lead to a "Donna Reed" or "Leave It To Beaver" (no pun intended, I swear) type life.
I'm sure you know it, but I have to say it before I proceed... for every escort who flakes out on you with whatever excuse, there is a guy who no call/no showed an escort. I had two last week alone. Please believe me when I say it's EVEN. (I once had a gent cancel at the last minute due to "window washers coming." Come on now!)
Ok, with that said, the problem here is that the girls who are super flaky and don't CARE about it, aren't going to read or heed your post anyways, so it's sort of a lost cause. With the rest of us... stuff DOES happen sometimes, and sometimes an email IS legitimately lost... but those of us with good reputations usually make an effort to make things right if something goes wrong. I try very hard to never let a customer leave with a bad taste in his mouth... (duel meaning there hehe)
Not sure how you can weed out those ladies if you say that it doesn't matter what their reviews are like... I guess if you don't see prompt response in emails, that would be an indicator, but I am not necessarily always right on top of my emails, and I am VERY good at making it to my appt's and making everyone happy. The great thing about this job for many of us is that if we don't want to work one day, we don't necessarily have to... and while that does NOT mean no showing an appt (which I would never do), it MAY mean not answering email for a day or two.
I also think part of the problem is that ladies don't want to get yelled at. Most of the ladies in this 'biz have some type of *pleaser* personality (at least, those who do well seem to), and hate getting yelled at. So it could be something that simple and silly... it doesn't make it right, but I do understand... I hate getting yelled at myself!
BTW I don't think the prom analogy works hon... at the prom you're going with someone you've KNOWN, probably for years, to a chaperoned event. The lady is not planning to be alone with someone whose intent MIGHT be to muder her. At least, it's far less likely!
Best,
Tamara