No one is imposing anything to you. And you have all the economic freedom to choose your way of making income. So the industry now is far different from say forced sex enslavement. No need to feel bad about anything!
Tell that trainer to lift some more dumbbells cause she sounds like a feminist I know!
What are your thoughts?
Sometimes I get this feeling from women who are deeply against the adult industry like stripping,porn and escorting are actually somewhat envious that there are others who have no problem with it and who actually enjoy a lifestyle that these women could never do, either because of deeply ingrained morals or fears or shyness of their bodies and looks. Nothing wrong with that but please, don't make assumptions about all escorts and their clients.
I got into a bit of a tiff with a friend of mine who strongly disagrees with what I do on the side ( she's also a personal trainer) and she said that she felt prostitution ( as she referred to us in this profession as tricks and johns, not hobbyists and providers, which I suppose are polite euphenisms for what we really are, no biggie there....but her statement that she felt 'cash for gash' was one of the most backward ways and anti-feminist ways of making a living for a woman, and that all men who paid for sex to pros were 'misogynists who had no respect for women and treated women as commodities rather than human beings." She also said that this job and this hobby created a mutual, deep distrust and divide between the sexes rather than bring them together in an understanding of equality and of respect. While I see her point, I also disagree with it in more than one way. I almost screamed trying to get her to understand that there ARE liberating aspects to the job, and that not ALL men who pay see us women as mere 'gash for cash'. Even if that were entirely true (and there is no entirety in my opinion on anything, there are always exceptions) I don't feel bad about what I do because I do not believe I am an object. And neither do I believe that all men who pay see me as a tool for disrespect.
What are your thoughts?
Sometimes I get this feeling from women who are deeply against the adult industry like stripping,porn and escorting are actually somewhat envious that there are others who have no problem with it and who actually enjoy a lifestyle that these women could never do, either because of deeply ingrained morals or fears or shyness of their bodies and looks. Nothing wrong with that but please, don't make assumptions about all escorts and their clients.
Hey Ava,
Well, this kind of topic you will get all kinds of answers including mine.
I do see both sides of the issue.
This personal trainer feels that women who are into the provider business are NOT totally independent and are also chained to pimps and/or involved with people who are in the sex trade.
I cannot blame that personal trainer for her perspective because she's is reflecting the society in general.
Let's assume that prostitution was legal all over the world, prostitution is still considered a low level type of employment.
You'll hear comments like this: "You're a prostitute? You can do better than that!!"
That's the stigma that prostitution will never get over. It will always be viewed as the dregs of society, no matter how much that prostitute makes.
Then you have the other side of the coin where ladies such as yourself will NOT view this opportunity as the bottom feeder of society.
Exactly where do I stand on this? I am in the middle. I do understand the arguments for both sides and can see the pros and cons of this topic.
Serpius
What are your thoughts?
Sometimes I get this feeling from women who are deeply against the adult industry like stripping,porn and escorting are actually somewhat envious that there are others who have no problem with it and who actually enjoy a lifestyle that these women could never do, either because of deeply ingrained morals or fears or shyness of their bodies and looks. Nothing wrong with that but please, don't make assumptions about all escorts and their clients.
opinions are like assholes..everybody has one..if you enjoy what you do and are completely comfortable doing it..just do it..your choice of lifestyle is yours and yours alone..no outside influence should ever affect it..
I agree Mack, sure we have to have some moral constaints ( thou shalt not kill,etc,etc ) but when those constraints are BS ( like, i went to a Baptist church for yrs and ROCK MUSIC was EVIL), i was absolutely miserable, because i love music.
If a women feels bound because she can't express her sexuality, well, IMHO, that's wrong.
I get the drift, that alot of escorts just look at sex in a different light than, civee women. ( if that's the way they are wired, then they should be able to express it )
We only go through life once and being bound, makes life miserable...IMHO.
Whether sex work is degrading depends in large part on the attitude and approach of the provider.
The media regularly remind us the of the extreme of women and girls coerced to provide servics that they don't want to. At the other end of the spectrum, I recently saw a provider who considers herself a feminist and speaks on the conference circuit on subjects like sex worker rights and social justice. There is a massive range of experiences in between.
convince someone that is against it, that what you are doing is right.
As long as this is what you really wanna do and don't feel "Used" by men, then, more power to you.
I, like alot of the other gents on here, are mature gentleman that have done the marriage thing, raised our kids, etc, etc. We are now divorced and like companionship on occassion, without getting into the complexities of a relationship.
Sure we look at you as hot fuckable women, but not objects.
To me what's most important, is that the biz is not damaging to you ladies. ( sure i think about that ) I used to think it was, but, i now realize, most of you ladies like doing this, atleast that's the impression i get.
But as far as not having respect for women, well, that's not true.
People may scoff at the idea that your providing a service to gentleman that want and need companionship....well, let them scoff.
People are always gonna have their opinions as to what is right or wrong......that doesn't make them right and us wrong.
As long as we are not hurting others. ( which, that's a whole other discussion....MARRIED MEN WHO HOBBY).
...has never been with more than two men in her 40 years, and that she likens prostitution to sexual slavery...that selling your BODY rather than your services ( like anything else) is degrading. I wasn't there to change her mind but to try to show her that it CAN be a positive thing despite the negatives, and that I didn't deny that it COULD be destructive in its own right. She grew up in an extremely conservative family, and the irony is, she has a sister who is a stripper and had an affair with a married man and has a secret love child from him. I'm not surprised that one sister went the 'other way' and that this girl stayed true to her conservative roots. That is often the case. But down deep inside, I sensed that there was a reluctant admiration from her knowing that there are women out there like myself, her sister and many others who do not consider themselves 'immoral' and who do not have an issue with what they do with their bodies or their time.
..... But for me, as an object of desire.
I have found that discussing this lifestyle with anyone outside of this game of ours or anyone lacking a specific need to take part is like debating politics or religion. The subject matter will always strike a nerve in the masses and is always best avoided.
Allow me to wander off on a tangent for a moment, In opposition to my friend Scoeds recent drunk rant condeming cheating husbands within a marriage I say this. There are those of us who remain in a household with the woman that we married even though like myself, suffer ( for lack of a better word ) a " zero intimacy " relationship for the past 5.8 years ( but who's counting).
Some would call me crazy for staying in such a relationship ( I have my reasons ) but many would understand the choice I have made in order to fulfill a need for short term sexual fulfillment if they knew why.
You ladies who wear the many labels put on you by those without a need or understanding provide an all important service to so many others just like me.
This service is not one that just any woman will ever experience or even begin to understand but for those of you that do, I thank you.
Not sure if your post was aimed at me. I was not bashing. ( hobbying out side the marriage ) Just stated, it's a whole other subject. Hell, i cheated in my marriage, so i'm not judging. ( cheated once )
Notice my post is below his in the tree and he named me by name. I only wanted to clarify my position. I am not at all against open marriages at all as long as both agree. Hell I am not even against sex outside of marriage because one side will not live up to there end of the deal as long as they don't lie about it. I am against lying to the person you should be the most honest with and betraying them in such a manor. Doing so would hurt them far more then breaking up with them. Note, I am not condemning anyone who does so. Compared to my crimes in my past it is minor. I am in no position to judge.
My post had nothing to do with you. As long as you leave my marriage alone we are good. If I was aiming anything at you I would make it clear good or bad. Lungman this post is aimed at you. But it is not a slam or judgement. Just being clear.
-- Modified on 6/16/2012 10:33:40 AM
Gotcha, sorry, i didn't read Romeo's post before i responded.
...politics, religon, or....escort/hobbying. It's a no-win situation. Those that despise it will never be convinced otherwise and those of us that love it don't want to be convinced otherwise!!!
I'd be concerned that if this "friend" hates it that much, she may not have any problem telling other people what you do. I hope not!
...she doesn't know enough people to tell anyways, and the most important people in my life, my best friends and my parents, know what I do anyways.
gym membership knowing he will stop coming in after a month isn't the same thing. " oh yea baby , I will be here everyday to train you personally" while she sticks her tits in his face and hands him a pen.
married, SOs, GFs are somehow granted sainthood! My ex told many that she never loved me yet cleaned me out of 100k... if there had been more, she'd have stayed longer!
I treat my short time GFs with kindness, respect & even affection. I happily provide meals. We spend hours outside of play time. And they do the same for me.
Hi,
I do the same as well!! All women, regardless of profession, deserve respect!! They are all Mother Nature's greatest creations!!
I treat my short time GFs with kindness, respect & even affection. I happily provide meals. We spend hours outside of play time. And they do the same for me.
I WholeHeartedly Concur!!!!!!!!!
Well said!
Shifterp OUT!
And that girlfriend who cleaned you out out of 100K was a dishonest golddigger. At least a hooker says
Give me the money upfront and I'll give you sex and that's that."
Don't you guys just love attention wh*res? How many boards is she going to post this same shit on? -YAWN-
Hey any simple solution has often lasting effects. Are you always this nice or are you having on off day?
Probably a provider suffering from PMS. Notice there's no other posts by this person and no inbox message. LOL
That the adults responded to your post and there was a decided lack of mindless back and forth pablum by the predictably pathetic?
we should all be better but we are who we are and we are there for many reasons. Judgement of others is very easy until we look at our own flaws. Do i wish that I never participated? yes. do I wish it was not so easy? yes. Do I think most providers would want to have a magic wanted and make it so they did not have to do this for money. Yes. Now I realize some just can not get enough and good for them but as a society this is still wrong.
There is nothing wrong with what any of us are doing. The fact that the state says it's illegal is a technicality. It's human nature at work and that's all. I do understand that many of us (not me) are deceiving those close to them and jeopardizing family, and that's where the only "wrong" is. But we are, at base, animals and are driven by our genes. It's called "the oldest profession" for a reason.
I agree Nicky.
As long as we are not hurting others.
I lived my life ( after being a wild teen ) according to what fundamentalist believe is true...and it damn near drove me insane. ( honestly, i think it's how my severe depression started ) ( as a matter of fact, i know it is )
If the provider likes what she's doing and of her own free will, then their is nothing wrong with it.
Nothing wrong with me sticking my dick in one of then either!!!
ps, sometimes that fundamentalist shit comes out of me on here....and I AM WRONG WHEN IT DOES!!!
...the unsuspecting wife, the fact that as a hooker I contribute to that 'cheating', the fact that I 'commodize' something precious as 'sex'....making women akin to NOTHING but sex objects ( hence hurting all that women have fought for NOT to be viewed as merely vessels for a man's relief). What she doesn't get is that I CHOSE this line of work, as the vast majority of women do ( other than forced sex slaves). And we deal with the repercussions in our own ways, through therapy, through talking with other hobbyists and escorts, etc.
In many cases you don't know if your client is even married. It's his responsibility if he is, not yours. And marriage itself is a joke. Half of all marriages end in divorce. Of the half that don't a huge percentage are sexless shams, with one partner or the other (or both) cheating. And I'm talking about real cheating, where it's a serious relationship, not a GFE experience. Your friend needs to open her eyes and get off her high horse.
Here's where I feel she does have a point. We are vessels for a man's relief, a voluntary vessel that demands and gets monetary consideration. We have been objectified as sex objects, just read a review or two, however escorts voluntarily accept reviews and for the most part these help her bottom line.
Those two perceived negatives have been turned around into positives for those women who have made a conscious choice to do what they do.
As for the cheating, well, no escort vowed to forsake all others, the guy did, so the cheating is on him. Why society blames the escort in this case is beyond me.
in convincing myself that I am not hurting another person in some way, shape, or form at one time or another by screwing other women's husbands...the letters from wives over the years have proved that someone gets hurt when the guy gets caught. I hear stories of the wife being pregnant and her man is out fking hookers, having 3 kids at home and them not having the money to get by whilst he is spending it here, etc.
And of course we are objects in this business...why do you think we are not all in our winter clothes, but half naked showing off our best features...to LURE GUYS IN! This is not about love, or a relatiionship, but physical lust and gratification...that makes us objects. It may not mean off the clock that's still what we are, but when a guy looks at our website he is not thinking about a ring and walking down the aisle lol. He is thinking about one thing and one thing only...his dick, and what we can do for it, to it, and with it.
I do not view what I do as honorable or noble, and I never will. I don't think it's as bad as a regular affair, but I am also not blind, naive, or insecure that I get a charge from another woman's man finding me appealing. I felt that way in high school when I did this for free, but not anymore.
I also hide my face for a reason...one for the humiliation that comes if I were found out, and the other for discretion for my clients to be able to take me in public without being recognized.
If I were altogether "proud" of what I do, there would be no need to hide any part of this.
-- Modified on 6/18/2012 11:26:05 AM
...there was a book that said motherhood was the next profession after the oldest. Makes sense I suppose LOL 
but since you brought up the issue of the terminology "prostitute", and since I like the whole subject of semantics, as that study often has a way of focusing on how etymology influences thinking (and vice versa), I'd like to discuss that for a bit:
The word prostitute originally had nothing to do with a person who trades sex for money. It refers to the process of corrupting. Those who wished to denigrate the sex business tarnished that business by getting the public to accept the term. I don't. To me, marriage is much more a cause of prostitution on account of the imbalance of power found in most marriage today.
On the other hand, sex for money affords both individuals the opportunity to decide (ideally, of course) what they want to do, and the transaction is devoid of unfair indenturedness that accompanies so much of the sexual interaction in society.
If I had a choice, I'd take the term whore, with all it's ugly connotations, over prostitute any day, as a whore was just a term for a lusty woman. (Nothing wrong with being lusty, is there?)
We now have settled on the terms "provider" and "hobbyist" as polite ways of referring to ourselves, for better or worse. The topic of finding better terms has come up time and again. I've often voted for "goddess" for the former, but find no real good term for the latter. (God is a bit ostentatious, n'est-ce pas?) I guess client is OK, except that it sounds a bit bland.
Feminists who damn the sex for money business are most likely uneasy about their sexuality, and therefor project this upon sexuality in general, and pay for play in particular. They also make the classic mistake of identifying form and functon as the same thing. It would take books and books to explore the entire question (And there are books to be had.) It's not a subject that is going to be put to bed (obvious pun) any time soon.
There have been a lot of good points made. I agree with Inicky as to the strong biological/psychological drive to be a hobbyist. I absolutely understand CubbyFan. Many of us I know enough providers who are truly happy with their career choice, and enjoy treating them with respect and affection, and sometimes it's reciprocated very well. I know I'm not objectifying someone I see.
The trainer comes across to me as lacking insight into her own motives, totally disingenuous, holier than thou, sanctimonious, and imperious. While I'm glad she's in shape, and if she's a good trainer helps the cardiovascular profile and self image of a lot of her clients, there is plenty about her profession that reminds me as someone pointed out of all the ways she tried to portray your being a provider. I would totally reject her lack of insight, Ava and I hope you do. You're perceptive enough to know if you're being respected and whether clients genuinely care for you, and my bet is that the vast majority of them do. Most providers I know are very comfortable with their career choice, or have other parallel careers and take pride in what they do.
As she grew up in an ultraconservative background, and yet her sister went the complete opposite and had affairs with married men and had a child with one of them, and is a stripper.
I spend all my time in foriegn countries for my job . 27 years of constant 6 months in Mexico , home for a waeek , 2 months in Italy , 8 in Japan - it goes on and on and on .
I have NEVER once in my life had a girlfriend - No , never once .
I tried once in Poland but when I had to leave it broke both are hearts and I decided I never wanted myself , or anyone to feel that pain . Its a different ball of wax when you KNOW you are leaving .
I myself ALWAYS go the extra mile when I get a chance to play . I ALWAYS bring some small token from the road so she knows I thought about her and value what she is doing for me . Not some cash and dash .
I also will not repeat unless I can connect with her on a mental level . I want to respect and genually like her in order for me to be intimate .
Without her services I would be an angry , pissed off American in some foriegn country .You might say you ladies are international ambassadors making American men be more tolerable when visiting third world countries .
I for one treat each one as a wanted , loving , compassionate human being and I feel LUCKY you will spend time with me !
To me, a provider is an expert. Years ago I took a former civvie GF out to dinner and tried to explain to her all my kinks, and she basically shook her head and asked, "Why don't you just make love?" I think that outside of the complainers who are simply not-so-professional practitioners of the oldest profession, providers are like doctors, experts on the male body and how to get it to respond, as well as being experts on disease control (shooting down another argument against their work. For this we pay them what they ask. We can select a provider the way one might select a medical specialist, someone prepared to administer the foreplay and contact necessary to produce a devastating orgasm. I'd call it a mental health practice.
Anyone who says "Ick!" at that needs to compare it to other "Ick!" lines of work there are in the world.
Actually, don't. It isn't worth the arguement.
This has been said many times, but bears repeating. When dating, you go out for dinner and dancing. Later, he takes you either home, or to his place for one more drink and conversation, and you end up in bed (or the couch or the livingroom floor). Other than the cash, is there much difference? She is a hipocrate.
What are your thoughts?
Sometimes I get this feeling from women who are deeply against the adult industry like stripping,porn and escorting are actually somewhat envious that there are others who have no problem with it and who actually enjoy a lifestyle that these women could never do, either because of deeply ingrained morals or fears or shyness of their bodies and looks. Nothing wrong with that but please, don't make assumptions about all escorts and their clients.
Just a grand ole topic with no absolute answer.
Well ok there is an absolute answer and that is everyone has a right to their opinion and all the opinions could be different and subject to change.
Sounds like I can manage being right smack dab in the middle. That is only the place I am observing. Being in the middle kinda is what happens when you are a recovering person(28 years and counting thank you very much), a Deist(google it for goodness sakes) a Libertarian! Bottom line I am swimming upstream, going against the grain and loving every minute of it!!!!!!!!! hehe
People are just so complex, norms are different from society to society.
The bottom line Ava is simple. You see the hobby one way and that allows you to engage in it and your friend sees it another way which makes her feel she is not into it.
If you saw it like her you would not want any part of the hobby and if she saw it your way she would be posting ads today and enjoying the company of a fella as soon as the arraingments could be made.
My biggest enjoyment in this thread is seeing the DUDE with over 20 reviews contributed saying he knows it is just absolutely wrong!!!!!!!!! LOL Goo for him! What a battle he has going on with himself. Dud if it is wrong just DON't do it! Reverse the Nike phrase how bout it.
For me personally there does happen to be a seedy side of the hobby. There also is a great side. I spent a little time with a gorgeous, sexy, interesting, passionate woman and YES we DID IT! Just me seeing it this way cause it is my side of it and I am sticking to it but and I know speaking for her and all but we had a GREAT time! Have each time we have gotten together.
Anyone trying to tell me there was anything wrong with what went on between the two of us and when we see one another again next week has every right to their opinion.
In our society there is pretty much a seedy side to bout everything. Go ask a Vegan about a great steak. Go ask Rush about Obama. Go ask a Dukie about my Beloved Tar Heels!!!!!!!!
Just because a person has a different opinion than yours doesn't make either of them right or wrong, it just means DIFFERENT. Different does not mean bad, look it up in the dictionary.
There are just so many people walking around with wrong definitions it is just crazy. Heck sin does mean bad or evil it means missed the mark. It served the folks who made up that particular religion to have the sheep think it meant wrong or evil and they have pulled it off rather well. That doesn't mean the real meaning of that word is different than it really is. Just means most people just have no idea cause instead of thinking for themselves they just take what is passed along to them from someone else of influence in their lives. Stupid sheep!!!!!!! LOL
There is not anything wrong with that either, people can think ANYTHING they want and they can do anything they want and there will be benefits and consequences according to the agreed upon societial norms. As long as you are willing to do the time for whatever you want to do have at it.
Ava, if you are cool with it do it. If you find as time goes along you are not cool with it don't.
I will say this. If I decided I wanted a romp in the sack with you and you screened me and everything was cool GREAT! I like that idea more than meeting your pt friend and romancing her, taking her to dinner, buying her flowers and probably spending as much as I would to spend some time with you and then finding out she just isn't feeling the urge to get intimate.
Same amount, different result POSSIBLY. Screw that, I just want to get naked so why not cut to the chase?
Anyway not sure that helps you resolve what your friends disagreeing with you caused. Just know it is ok for her to have a different opinion than you and it does not make either of you wrong or right for that matter. You just have a different way of looking at something.
I Concur!
Shifterp OUT!
Is it true that some men in this are "misogynists who had no respect for women and treated women as commodities rather than human beings." it is also true that many people don't treat waiters, fast food workers, and grocery store cashiers as people. It is also true many guys do see you women as what you are people with rights and feelings and treat you as such. In the end this job is different from other jobs as it is more isolating because of legalities, social stigma, and the difficulties of maintaining a SO while working. The first two are in large part do to feminists thinking a woman can't make an informed choice on what to do with her body. How is that for irony.
But I feel that the men are. Women are profiting, men are looking for acceptance and they are willing to pay handsomely to receive hollow reinforcement that they mean something to the opposite sex.
What are your thoughts?
Sometimes I get this feeling from women who are deeply against the adult industry like stripping,porn and escorting are actually somewhat envious that there are others who have no problem with it and who actually enjoy a lifestyle that these women could never do, either because of deeply ingrained morals or fears or shyness of their bodies and looks. Nothing wrong with that but please, don't make assumptions about all escorts and their clients.
Victim is a pretty strong word, but the dynamic you describe is interesting. I think it's true for some guys, but many other guys couldn't care less.
Pretty interesting thread, shows there is a lot of complexity afoot.
Here there are no victims, just volunteers.
Also want to mention when I see how people respond it says more about them than the situations they
are commenting on.
Just like tough situations to not mold character, they reveal it.
So when you see people talk about their opinion about this topic it just shows their opinion.
Some people got some pretty interesting opinions.
Shifterp OUT!
What are your thoughts?
Sometimes I get this feeling from women who are deeply against the adult industry like stripping,porn and escorting are actually somewhat envious that there are others who have no problem with it and who actually enjoy a lifestyle that these women could never do, either because of deeply ingrained morals or fears or shyness of their bodies and looks. Nothing wrong with that but please, don't make assumptions about all escorts and their clients.
...they're looking for a noncommittal sexual encounter for the most part. How is that being victimized by a woman??
Hmmm, interesting!
It depends on how she runs her business and how strong she is as a woman. I certainly do know women who have become jaded and bitter and thus a 'victim' in that sense.
However it would place men in a vulnerable position if that was main stream thinking. Easier and more socially palatable to make the woman the victim than a man.
Sex is a human function like the need for touch, not life threatening if you don't get it but it sure makes life a lot more pleasant if you do.
To make a man pay for something that in most eyes, should be readily given as part of human interaction, could seem sad.
I mean in all seriousness, even we have the right to refuse a man and he is willing to pay. I can see how that might be a blow to any guy's ego and self esteem.
I feel veryn empowered and not at all abused or taken advantage of. I et my rules and boundaries, choose who I will see, what I will do and when I work. Don't see victim in that do you?
and you're willing to pay handsomely to receive hollow reinforcement? And, you do this against your own will?
You may "feel" victimized because what you think you're paying for is acceptance (it's not). But, I think you've run yourself off the tracks. A victim in this business is someone who is engaged in prostitution, without having made a fully informed decision to do so. Whether that is because s/he can't find any other way to a pay the bills, or support children......or kids who have been adopted by "benevolent" benefactors (pimps) who provide for basic needs that their own parents could not, or would not provide.
The fact that you actually have the money to "pay handsomely" for the services of a sex worker, by very definition, precludes you from "victim" status.
By that I mean not a victim of anything other than ones own choices. I am a real fat man. I weigh about 400lb. I eat a lot at McDonald's, am I a victim of McDonald's? No I ate there knowing it was not healthy. If I am a victim I am a victim of me.
If a provider or hobbyist is here by choice are victims they are not victims of prostitution but of their own choices that harm themselves. The hobby like McDonald's can cause great harm, but neither harm everyone who partakes or provides. Any job can be rewarding to the right person, any job can be soul destroying to the wrong person.
It is all choice and attitude. No one is doing anything against anyone's will if no one is being forced. The only people that are victims of the hobby in this are those that are trafficked or pimped. The wives and husband's cheated on are victims of their spouses and adultery not the hobby. The sex worker seeing a married man is not causing him to cheat; neither is the hobbyist seeing a married woman causing her to cheat. Cheaters will cheat hobby or no.
Yes there are bad things that can happen like rape, outings, murder, robbery, acts of violence, cons, blackmail, STD's, pregnancy and others things that may happen to make one a victim of other's actions and choices on both sides of the coin in this game. The thing is all these things happen outside of the hobby as well. They are far from exclusive to this world we play in. They are the result of bad people doing bad things or natural risks of ones own behavior. All jobs have risks. It is a fact of life. Having risks does not make a thing wrong.
Can we drop this ridiculous victim nonsense unless we are talking about actual cases where one is not the main cause of ones victim hood. We are all victims of are own choices in life.
-- Modified on 6/17/2012 9:21:15 PM
On one hand she is echoing mainstream stereotypes. On the other, there is an element of truth in everything she said. So, as with any controversial subject, there are always extremes on both sides, and a middle ground.
I don’t think this business ‘’creates’ a deep divide and distrust between the sexes. That exists independently. But it does seem to shine a spotlight on that condition. Some men do view sex workers as a commodity. There was a thread just the other day in which the (rather common) perspective was voiced again that “this business” is based on volume and should be approached in the context of economies of scale just like “any other business”. As if a woman’s pussy output widgits. And, the more widgets she makes the lower the cost to the consumer, and the higher the profit to the “manufacturer”.
And, there are women in this business who are less than ethical in their business dealings; which serves to further reinforce the belief that men have to protect themselves from unscrupulous ladies. Both sides are true. That deep divide and mistrust is reflected on this board all the time. On this very thread, even.
And, while your friend is positioning her opinion from a feminist perspective, not all women who are against sex work are feminists. And, not all feminists are against sex work.
I’ve seen both men and women throw the label “feminist” around this board as if it was a dirty word. But, the very fact that a woman has chosen to be a sex worker is, in and of itself, a reflection of feminist ideology. A sex worker has taken control of what, could arguably be, the most fundamental aspect of her personhood; her own body, her own sexuality. And she has, basically, thrown out a pretty giant FU to “acceptable” societal mores.
Seems like all feminists would be on board with the idea, right? But this slope can get slippery, fast. Because exploitation does exists. Some women are making a fully informed choice. Others are only in this business because they have few (or no other viable options)---and if given other viable options, would not be in this business. Of course, the same could be said of anyone working in any other job they would rather not be doing. Then again, there is quite a difference between working a job you don’t like, and working in a job you don’t like, that requires that you have sex with strangers.
So, from a feminist perspective, we also ask: is she a ‘victim’ of circumstances, education, economics, geography (fill in the blank)? Or, is she making a hard choice just like anyone else in a bad spot? Does the answer change if she has a pimp (or a manager?). Is sex work ok for a woman who has every other option available to her, and chooses to be a sex worker, but not ok for a woman who does not have the same opportunities and choices? All of these questions get murky when sex for money gets thrown-in.
I don’t think it’s so much that the women, (as opposed to men, equally opposed), who are repelled by the idea of prostitution are secretly envious of the lifestyle (not that some aren't). They probably are genuinely repelled by the idea; but again, for reasons that are very real to them. Sex work involves utilizing individual sexuality to be professionally successful. In any other professional capacity, (most) women find it more than a little annoying and exasperating when other women play on their sexuality, instead education or experience, to excel professionally.
As a feminist, I fully support sex workers, and believe it is as valid, and respectable a profession as any other. On the flip side, as a feminist, when I see a woman manipulating men and clearly getting ahead professionally by playing on her sexuality or, I see men interacting with (or talking about) professional colleagues, behind their backs, in the same way they would a professional sex worker, I don’t get envious. I get pissed. Many women, (feminists, or not), have to work very hard to be taken seriously, by men, and do everything possible to eliminate those kinds of expectations…in the workplace.
Some excellent posts on this subject and this one, hotplants, is superb!!!
I am a feminist who considers sex work to simply be what it is: and I would not recommend it nor would I champion it, because it ISN'T for everyone, and to be frank, it CAN have serious psychological and spiritual/emotional repercussions for the women involved inparticular. However, I consider myself an existentialist feminist. We will NEVER get rid of sex work, and so those of us who choose to do it must be prepared to deal with the fallout both negative ( as well as the positive aspects of the job) and the isolation of being in a marginalized profession as well as deal with judgement and outright cruelty of people who pick up society's notions about sex work in general. I am not pro-sex work like Camille Paglia, and I am not anti-sex work like Andrea Dworkin who likens every sex act to being raped. I am in the middle.
One thing I find very frustrating that what seems to come to mind for most people, in the context of feminism, is Andrea Dworkin…or Camile (now Pat) Paglia. But Andrea Dworkin never actually said: “all heterosexual sex is rape”.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intercourse_%28book%29
I was never an advocate of AD. Then again, I could never quite get on board with any kind of 'separatist' politics. But, just goes to show how the media can manipulate and how people tend to remember inflammatory things that they ‘hear’, incorporate that into their belief system, and then continue to propagate that belief.
I’m not knockin’ early radical feminism. Sometimes you have to shake shit up to get attention. And, I am a grateful beneficiary of that movement.
But, contemporary feminism has evolved considerably over time. Generally speaking, women who identify as feminist today, especially younger women, have taken a fairly radical turn when it comes to sexuality. Women are no longer responding to sexism by doing everything possible to hide their sexuality. Women have come to a place in which they are demanding the right to openly express sexuality without being marginalized, without being called a slut..or a whore…without being labeled bimbos. Women no longer accept the idea that what they were wearing, who they were associating with, or where they were walking, was an invitation to (or justification for) sexual assault. The whole---'she should have known better'...thing.
Attitudes about sex workers are lagging behind. It doesn’t strike me as completely different than radical feminist in the 60’s 70’s objecting to any direct association with lesbians.
I suppose time is the key….
and the wrongheaded response to that from many in the women's movement. As you have said, there are similarities today in attitudes toward sex workers.
On a different topic, I get the sense that some of today's feminists have trouble accepting the reality that some clients do, in fact, seek acceptance.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intercourse_%28book%29
I was never an advocate of AD. Then again, I could never quite get on board with any kind of 'separatist' politics. But, just goes to show how the media can manipulate and how people tend to remember inflammatory things that they ‘hear’, incorporate that into their belief system, and then continue to propagate that belief.
I’m not knockin’ early radical feminism. Sometimes you have to shake shit up to get attention. And, I am a grateful beneficiary of that movement.
But, contemporary feminism has evolved considerably over time. Generally speaking, women who identify as feminist today, especially younger women, have taken a fairly radical turn when it comes to sexuality. Women are no longer responding to sexism by doing everything possible to hide their sexuality. Women have come to a place in which they are demanding the right to openly express sexuality without being marginalized, without being called a slut..or a whore…without being labeled bimbos. Women no longer accept the idea that what they were wearing, who they were associating with, or where they were walking, was an invitation to (or justification for) sexual assault. The whole---'she should have known better'...thing.
Attitudes about sex workers are lagging behind. It doesn’t strike me as completely different than radical feminist in the 60’s 70’s objecting to any direct association with lesbians.
I suppose time is the key….
Hey, clients have every right to seek acceptance all they like. Nothing wrong with seeking acceptance. We all do it, in one way or another.
Just don't try to declare yourself a victim when you're willingly paying hundreds of $'s an hr to do so. That tends to water down the "I'm a victim" defense. ...lol....
Albeit a small percentage and it's thoroughly refreshing to see this well written, balanced, non confrontational and serious post. Kudos to you.
This board is not so bad now that one can "ignore" the trash and have the pleasure of communication with decent human beings who are not internet cowards and can act with some civility
No one is imposing anything to you. And you have all the economic freedom to choose your way of making income. So the industry now is far different from say forced sex enslavement. No need to feel bad about anything!
Tell that trainer to lift some more dumbbells cause she sounds like a feminist I know!
What are your thoughts?
Sometimes I get this feeling from women who are deeply against the adult industry like stripping,porn and escorting are actually somewhat envious that there are others who have no problem with it and who actually enjoy a lifestyle that these women could never do, either because of deeply ingrained morals or fears or shyness of their bodies and looks. Nothing wrong with that but please, don't make assumptions about all escorts and their clients.
Does paying for dinner at a restaurant cause a person to have an unhealthy attitude toward cooks?
I have the highest respect for providers. They are filling an important need, in many aspects, for people of all sorts. As I said in another post, my first (and second) time was with a provider, and had it not been for a provider, I would have never been able to mature emotionally to the point that I have now been happily married to a wonderfully sexually open woman, and together we have two adult children.
I was so painfully shy, raised in such a sexually repressed environment, that without providers to help me get over my emotional issues with sex, I'd never have been able to develop healthy relationships with women.
I believe that people who develop a negative attitude toward the profession were already pre-disposed to that attitude. I don't see a man who regularly visits a provider developing an unhealthy attitude toward because they visit a provider.
It is a provider's body. It is a provider's life. Likewise, it is a hobbyist's own body and life. This is a mutually beneficial transaction that should be universally decriminalized AND more universally accepted as a respectable part of enlightened society.
We're part of the swinging community. I can get free pussy, it isn't a problem. I'm not trying to flatter myself, I'm just stating a fact: there are plenty of horny couples out there for us to hook up with, especially when you consider that I'm orally bi-sexual. But some of that free pussy comes with complications or pressures or issues that simply don't exist with a provider. Why would someone like me, who has permission to fuck other women whenever I want, choose a provider sometimes over going the free route? Simply because sometimes I might prefer to avoid those pressures. Sometimes I may want to sample a new skill set. Sometimes I may want to learn something new. Sometimes I may want to experience something different. Sometimes I may just want to expand my own experiences and learn ways to enhance my private life with my wife.
Taking away the legalities, are there other risks for both partners in such a transaction? Absolutely. But those risks are generally understood by both parties. And I would assert that the risk is greater among the civilian population who engage in one night stands since I believe that providers insist on safe relations far more than civilian partners probably do.
I consider those who pass judgment on the hobby without fully understanding it to be a BUNCH OF IDIOTS.
Of what you ask? Could be of you, of the $$ you make, of the freedom you have. Maybe she is jealous that you have the balls to do something she would never have the courage to do. Either way. She is jealous. As are all women who complain about what we do. Jealous!
Thanks to the previous posters . Enlightening thoughts. Sorry in advance for the typos. I'm on a mobile device and corrections are a pain.
About the gist of your friend's view. One size does not fit all. Some women in this profession are victims by any standard. Some are not. Some may be one or the other at different times. Most of us are forced to work to support ourselves. Some of us love our jobs. Some find them unpleasant and even degrading. Most of us would not do our work for free, even if we like it most of the time.
Providing is different, because many consider it immoral. Ok, but that's a call I leave to each individual.
Another difference is the fact that prostitution relates to feminism for some people. I know two providers who are very impassioned and eloquent about how providing is the ultimately empowering profession for women. While I consider myself a male feminist, I am neither a prostitute nor a woman, so I really don't feel qualified to have an opinion on whether providing Is politically rather than personally some sort of feminist act.
However, my main point is that I give your opinion more weight than your friend's. Sure, you each have a vested interest in justifying your own beliefs and behavior - and you have an economic interest as well. BUT, while your friend has a right to her own moral views, she simply has no experience on which to base her own conclusions. Are prostitutes victims? Does she know any- besides you - personally? Are johns evil or misogynist? My impression is that some are and some are not, but that she has no experience with men in that context. I'll brt you, with your more optimistic attitude have run into more misogynist johns than she has. Since her grand total of experience in this area is zero, I think my bet is safe.
It's always easy to have opinions about the attributes of groups of people whom one has no experience with. Generally, IMHO such opinions, even when they are your own, should be treated with more than a grain of salt.
I am also wondering why people are so judgmental. We all need a little love. My friends who know are supportive but realize there is a price to pay, as in not really being a part ofI find my clients are polite gentlemen who don't just try to get it for free. Those I found plenty of, out there in the single world. I just find, being a more mature provider, that I lose patience with the No Shows No Calls and that generally, even though I have to work harder, it will be better for me to have a real job and just do this on the side, as soon as I finish school. The hard work of advertising, even on free sites, can get quite time consuming and expensive. To say nothing of the back and forth e-mails or texts, with a final "Oh, sorry. I can't make it." Luckily I have enough regulars that I know I can count on, so I am "advertising" less. I also have never been married, so finding a partner is a priority. This biz is not the place for that. So how many hobbyists think it should be shared with a SO? Most have said so far, that there is no point. That most men would not accept it, even in hard times. Excuse the pun. So thank you for a very interesting discussion. Happy Father's Day! Kalina
(Link removed *Admin*)