In case anyone does not think Lennon was right when he said "woman is the nigger of the world", read this.

The amazing thing is that this supposedly is supported by Islamic law, but there would be no counterlaw allowing the mother of these girls to kill this "religiously insane" fuck in return for it.  Oh, wait...she's a woman!

I don't know jack about Islam, so this guy may not really be talking about what Islam really is about.  However, if there really is something in Islam supporting this fuck's actions, then I will never believe that Islam is anything but a cult.  No valid religion could have such disregard for life itself.

(And no, I don't see my feelings toward him as contradictory to my statement)

I also know very little about Islam.  But I would wager that this guy is as Muslim as Timothy McVeigh was Christian.

Thank God he lives in Pakistan, where he might actually hang, as opposed to, say Marin County, California, where the leftwing attorneys and judges would probably say he needs THER-apy, or under-STAND-ing, or com-PASS-ion.  Pick your PC term of choice.

(Those of you who know "borders, language, culture" understand the emphases.)

some of its adherents decide to take something in it so literally that they end up committing barbarous acts like this.  All major religions have lunatic fringes that defend insanity under the guise of their religion.  That is no reason to condemn the vast majority of adherents who respect the main message of the major religions, i.e., love for fellow people.

Since it is useless to rail against those who commit these "defender of the honor" crimes... and who view women as property... why not pass a law making the destruction of property a crime... that way - they get to keep their attitudes but at least the physical well being of the women would be somewhat protected - and in the Bizzaro world of radical whateverism... maybe that makes sense-

I am very tired of trying to argue logically with radical whateverisms so now I think that I shall argue illogically.... whereever possible...   maybe in that way I can help...

I include secularism - in my list of isms...  that many on the left - in this country cannot see that by banning or belittleing the beliefs of others - they are certainly headed in the direction of the lunitics of other isms....  

Tolerance, empathy, a sense of justice...  a sense of proportionate to the action...

whatever happened to these thoughts... within religion?

I have spent many hours reading on this subject and have been to the middle east. It's hard for me to be objective at times, but I have to be as a writer and as a human being. For the most part, Islamic belief is compliant with what some Christians feel about society and far from what this lunatic/killer sought with little redemption. There are misunderstood stereotypes in all religions. There should be a punishment for every crime, no matter the person, place or incident. However, that's easier said than done.

Hugs,
Ciara

honor killings for islam are like witch burnings and abortion bombings for christians.

There is a time to kill...

As you say, there is a time to argue logically, and a time for to be arguing illogicably...

The art of life is to find the balance.  True religion/faith helps man find that balance.

No, seriously. Speaking as an atheist... I have never understood the difference between a religion... a "valid" religion, to use your words... and a cult.  Is it only a cult if they kill people?

Don't orthodox Jews thank God every morning for not making them a woman?  And shucks, look at the garden of Eden... such a nice, handy story for blaming all pain and suffering in the universe on the weakness of woman.  To me it seems most religions are biased against women, whether they advocate outright murder or not.  

I'm not saying it's not different to kill people. Of course it is. But I am asking what is the diff between a cult and a religion?

Best,
Tamara

The history of Christianity is littered with crimes just as heinous. All this misery in the name of God or Allah or whatever the fuck you want to call it.

Let's face it, fundamentalists of all religions are scary. Even fundamentalist Atheists, if there is such a thing, and I do believe that there is, are scary too. Anybody who has beliefs that are so rigid that they can't even remotely consider the possibility of someone else's point of view is equally narrowminded.

The difference is that those of us who don't believe in God, or Jesus, or Allah don't try to threaten others into believing as we do. Whether it be by threatening eternal damnation, being stoned to death or having your throat cut Christians and Muslims have that one thing in common. "Believe as I do, or you will suffer"

As someone else here was so fond of saying, "Religion blech"

Many "third world" cultures have a very distorted view of the place and value for women in their society.
And, of course, it's not everyone who believes their ideology, either.

In China, some still consider killing female babies only because they are female.

As bad and sick as our own society can be sometimes towards women, I thank God that we live here and are able to enjoy, support and cherish our women.

Bless you ladies.
Thank you for being you!

Just my opinion...
B

The Koran suggests that all non-muslims are infidels, and there is honor in killing infidels. There are islamic clerics teaching this rhetoric out in the open during services in different parts of the world. This story of an ignorant muslim killing his daughters to save HIS honor is ridiculous and common. How would it play if the muslim women started killing all the male members of their family to save THEIR honor?
You can bet that the male dominated, fascist Islamic law would come crashing down on them. Make no mistake, this is a "religion of hate" and nothing more. You are right MSD, Islam is a cult, always has been and always will be. The worst part is seeing some of these brain-washed muslim women defending these fascists that they are married to, it is sickening.

Adam was with Eve when she accepted the apple and ate.  He was too spineless to step up and either take a bite first himself, or to say "No Eve, we'd better not or we'll be in trouble."   He let his woman make the tough decision, and let her take the fall (he actually even blamed her later on to God).

The message from Genesis is of a dual-sex fall from grace.  The first man and woman were partners, and they stumbled together.  Neither is more to blame.  Both were punished, although their punishments were unique.

Unfortunately, as everyone has agreed, people continue to distort the teachings of their religions to serve their own purposes, whether it is to justify "honor killings" or male chauvinism.  Some distort purposefully, others just follow out of ignorance.

I promise you, most Judeo-Christian believers do not "blame all pain and suffering in the universe on the weakness of woman."  Most are revolted by the fundamentalists and pseudo-Cristian cults who make such assertions.  Many are ignorant, but that is changing.

The difference between a religion and cult can be summed up in one word:  CHOICE.  If you are not allowed to make your own decision (whether to follow the literal teachings of the religion as interpreted by its current "authorities," whether to leave the group, whether to raise your kids to follow the exact same path), then it is a cult.  Cults don't let you out (without unpleasant consequences).

Any religion worth following will deal with absolute right and wrong.  Otherwise why bother?  What makes a cult is the forcing of adherence.  So no, Christianity, Judaism, and Islam are not cults.  But there are those who call themselves Christians, Jews, or Muslims who are actually just in a cult.  Islamic terrorists comprise the cult which currently threatens world peace.  So please keep your mind open when considering the "menace" of religion.

than prison terms, although considerably less dramatic.   See if he flings his turds at the guards when he's all Prozacked out.

See, in the 3rd world, they cut heads or hands off, or stretch rope.  In the western world, they have come to the coercive use of medicine as a tool of social control.

For most purposes (like controlling misdemeanors) it works great.  You get a normal white collar guy committing something that wouldn't even BE a crime in most places (DUI, thumping on the family, etc) and you get him in therapy, and if he can't figure out that people hate him for it, he will surely figure out that it's a complete waste of time, and he won't do it again.  

For harder cases, we medicate them.  That works too, unless they fail to take their meds.  We can lock them up and take them out of circulation, and if we do it for long enough, their bodies change, and a 50 year old man simply does not have the need to pick fights like an 18 year old.  

And the great thing is that meds are less dramatic than offing people, so it doesn't scare (or piss off) the ladies.   You know Chuck Manson's mom would have raised holy hell if they had snuffed him.

And we're so fat dumb and happy that we have nothing else to worry about than keeping Chuck Manson's mom happy; and this is important because politicians lose control if they aren't telling people what to do.  If Chuck Manson's mom cries, then a politician needs to respond, or he loses his job.


Now, I don't know the solution to the problems of Marin county, or Pakistan.  I have to hope that the Pakis solve their own problems, because I sure have no desire to help them here.  The Marinites are a little closer to home, but I won't bother them as long as they don't bother me.

Just don't get the idea that they're any more merciful than the Pakis.   Neurological castration at the hands of some therapist is not my idea of mercy.

in stating that "woman is the nigger of the world" where does that leave the world's black population? Black is  the nigger of....?

I've  wondered about that for the last 30 years or so. Any takers?

not to perceive that all islamic people feel this way. There are bad apples in every crowd. I agree with you this is horrific and he should be punished severely, as I'm sure Mr. Fisher would agree. We were both merely commenting on your statement that you didn't understand the Islam religion, so we posted that true Islamic people don't believe in this type of punishment.

Hugs,
Ciara

supposedly by prophets.

Hugs,
Ciara

even in the good ol' USA women are still a minority, my dear. Most people would hate to admit it, but we are.

Hugs (and I miss you),
Ciara

muslim and islamic women defending their men because if they did anything else, they would be ridiculed (and more). However, some do not practice these barbaric procedures (especially those who live in the U.S.) -- thank goodness.

Hugs,
Ciara

I think "nigger" is such a deragatory word that John Lennon meant that women are the real minority and slaves. He was probably placing them so far down on the list because -- let's face it -- we are brutalized in many countries and continue to be considered the weaker sex still in society. I could be wrong on this subject about John Lennon, but that is my interpretation of his quote.

Hugs,
Ciara

I understand what Mr. Fisher was saying; I simply feel it is irrlevant to these scenarios that have happened.

If some Christian fundamentalist in this country did the same thing this guy did, he would be either on death row or in jail (or the looney bin) for life.  My point is that there is enough wiggle room, either in Islam iteself (that is the part I didn't know), or in Pakistani society (although Pakistan isn't the only country that commits atrocities in Islam's name), for these occurances to be much more than some random act of fanaticism.  Read the article, Ciara.  There were HUNDREDS of women killed in this scenario this year, and more in previous years, and the punishment was supposedly almost always simply paying a monetary compensation to the family.

This isn't a situation that can just be blamed on someone's fanatical interpretation of Islam...it is something that has at least a partial sanction, either by that society or by Islam.

Maybe Islam isn't to blame for it, and I am not trying to condemn the religion in general.  I said *IF* it was to blame, I would look at Islam poorly.  However, I don't see Islamic clerics in Pakistan rushing to say how this guy does not speak for Islam, or hear other Islamic countries condemning Pakistan for not punishing this "fanatical behavior" with something besides levying a fine.  

Maybe they know something that you, in spite of your understanding of Islam and the world, don't know.

I have to agree with you about many of the ponts you've made. In fact, many countries capitalize on these injustices to women for scare tactics. Look at parts of Africa where women are still casterated (cut and then sewn up tightly for men's pleasures). Many young women die each year from this horrific mutilation. I cannot remember her name, but she's a famous, former model who gives lectures about these occurences in her former country. Anyway, I'm just saying that religions are always misinterpreted by people. I don't agree with some of them, but I also defend some of the people who I know personally and who do not agree with the philosophies of the sick and damned.  The Koran is so misinterpreted anyway. In it, it states to never hurt a woman or a child -- to protect them. However, I love your sensitivity to the subject matter. You seem like a good person.

Hugs,
Ciara

I am glad you mentioned the genital mutilation in Africa, because that definitely was another scenario I was thinking about.

Have you ever seen the movie "Bandit Queen"?  That brought about similar feelings on my part.  I almost felt ashamed to be a man after watching that movie.  Additionally, if am am not mistaken, I think that Poolan Devi was assasinated.  Anyway, it highlighted some poor aspects of Hindu culture as well.

I can only hope that someday the men of Paki society stand united against things like "honor killings", or that the women unite against them.  

Although there is much wrong with Islam, Islam is not alone in this barbarity.  According to Jewish law (and according to the New Testament!), Joseph was well within his rights to kill the Virgin Mary!  For that matter, Christianity's historical vilification of the "Whore of Babylon", witches, and midwives isn't all that great either.  Remember, the Book of Revelation calls Jews the "synagogue of Satan" and celebrates the incineration of the "Whore of Babylon".

What we are dealing with is a sickness that cursed the Middle East for millennia (and what's worse, has been proselytized to the rest of humanity!).  The barbarity you see is not essentially different from barbarity that existed before there ever was Islam.  How was it an improvement for Lot to shove his daughters out into the street to get gang raped?  And for that matter, I don't particularly like it that in Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, Abraham is regarded as a good and pious man because he was so utterly willing to kill his own son at the command of his god!

I don't disagree with you that a lot of wickedness masquerades as religion.  But the problem is less Islam than the fact that Islam is interpreted in a manner to justify atrocities.  Here's a dirty little secret of theology -- nearly every religion has something in its scriptures that can justify atrocities.  The Torah demands the genocide of the Amalekites and the Bible has that awful piece of garbage in it called the Book of Revelation.

You say "no valid religion could have such regard for life itself".  Maybe you're right.  After all, I (for one) think that stopping human sacrifice in the Aztec Empire was worth fighting for.  But ours shouldn't be a war against Islam, but a war against barbarity irrespective of whether it masquerades itself as a religion.

No single force in the history of mankind has caused so much death and destruction as religion, can you say Crusades, Inquisition, Muslin-Hindu, the middle east, witch hunts, bible beaters, Ireland, etc.. etc... etc..........

what exactly it is, that believers believe.  Not trying to convert anyone, just trying to avoid misinformation.

... in the past 11 months according to the article in the Eastern Punjab province. This seems to be the favorite way in that part of the world of controlling women's sexuality.  

His is just the latest and perhaps most shocking case, but this preservation of honor seems to be deeply engrained here.  

I find neither Chrisianity nor Islam to be particularly benevolent.  

-- Modified on 12/28/2005 6:23:16 PM

Haven't others already said this?

Can't judge the religion by those who misinterpret or outright abuse the teachings to justify their own violent urges (Crusades), their own desire to control others (Inquisition), their own xenophobia (Muslim-Hindu), their own feuds/generational prejudices (Muslim-Hindu, middle east), their own paranoia (witch hunts), their own self-righteousness (bible beaters), their own imperialism (Ireland).

Man is fallible.  Even with religion, we fuck up.  But man is also clever.  We abuse "religion" to cover our asses when we fuck up.

That STILL doesn't mean that religion isn't mostly a positive force in the world.  It also teaches empathy, integrity, altruism, and forgiveness.

With all the talk (and I do not denigrate it, much of it is laudable) of doing things to wipe out the attrocities committee by adhertents of this or that religion, perhaps we ought to consider the ramifications of what could happen were were we to actually do so.
Currently our administration is on a mission to bring democracy to Iraq with, at best, mixed results.
I readily admit that I don't possess the answer, but I was taught by my mentor that sins of ommision are preferable to the sins of commission, so a bit of humility is in order.

Islam is not the enemy.  Christianity is not the enemy.  Judaism is not the enemy.  Hinduism is not the enemy.  Atheism is not the enemy.

If you want to look into each of these belief systems, you can find something to dislike, or you can find something to justify your misdeeds.  That is not the problem of the belief system, it is an abuse of the system -- either for or against it.

The real enemy is human being's eagerness to find reasons to make other "isms" their enemy!

maybe we need Mr. Scott to implement a solution like he did in "Bread and Circuses".

Actually, if you are going to menton the Iraq situation, you are making your post more relevant to "Patterns of Force"...

or maybe even "A Piece of the Action". :P

Up for a game of Fisbin, Mr. Fisher? Oh, wait...it isn't Tuesday. :P

and it doesn't matter who's. Christian, Jew, Muslim, Islamic, whatever. Every one of your stupid religions preaches love, generosity and tolerance while mixing in judgment and dogma to insight all of the irresistible 7 deadly sins to turn you against each other. 500 short years ago while good and brave Christian men went off to bring their civilized religion to the Middle East by way of the sword, axe and mace they left their chase Christian brides and girlfriends home in Europe fitted with a steel panties to insure their fidelity. Today the same camel jockey yahoos who never quite caught on to the "Crusade" thing and never quite made it out of the living in tents and sleeping in the dirt are still covering their women in "Burkhas" You Christians have since learned that for every lock there is a locksmith so now the women are simply advised to take birth control or abort it so that their returning "Crusader" doesn't have to raise some other guys progeny. Oh Yeah; I almost forgot. You orthodox Jews were also very forgiving of free thinking women in the old days your selves.

 It’s only through modern secular laws that the fanatic aberrations are kept somewhat in check. The less modernized/civilized the society the more aberrations and tolerance for them..

Anyone got a spare rock around here?  

Right on target once again, WR.  You said the most with the fewest words.

Not quite Scripture, but close.

First the religion does not condone these killings. As a matter of fact it was outlawed by Islam. It also outlawed beating your wife and kids. But though history they are taught at home that acts like this  are from God and they believe that God condones their acts. There is so much the gets mixed up with the cultural  customs of the area. One of the biggest things I fought against when I with in the area. What the true parts of Islam came from the Koran.When the religion first was brought by The Prophet it gave women rights they had never had before , to divorce , to own land etc. It also gave women rights to make their husbands have sex with them "they have to every 90 days or it is a sin ".Honor killings and female mutation  are not allowed by the Koran.
   To those who don't know me. I was married and lived my life as a Muslim woman here  in the states for 20 years. I covered head to toe and study the religion. There are many things that aren't right about it. But always remember it is people that do such acts not the religion.

I miss you, too.

Sorry, I can't dispute your comment.

But I certainly hope that things will get better and that you know that there are guys that honor and treasure you ladies.

just my opinion...
B

A few years ago I had quite extensive correspondence with a woman who lived in Karachi.  Although she was a Pakistani & a Muslim, she had been educated in a school operated by the British & was very fluent in English.  She described herself as an "enlightened" Muslim.  As is quite common in that country & many others, hers (she was a widow when I knew her) was an arranged marriage, & was to a much older man who she claimed never would have been her choice if she had been given the luxury of choosing.  

We became very good friends through our correspondence & after a time the emails arrived as regularly as my morning coffee.  I knew very little of the customs of either her religion or her country & would often express my surprise at things she would tell me.  So she made it a point to constantly inform me of local conditions, customs, etc...& the subject of honor killings was one of those we discussed at some length.

Numerous times she would even provide a link to an English language Pakistani newpaper to read if there was an article on the subject.  I read quite a few of them, & while I don't remember all the deatails of any one such case, I do remember learning that honor killings are not condoned Islam & furthermore are against Pakistani law.  Their roots are in tribal custom & date back hundreds of years.  And no matter the law, the courts look the other way...an arrest might be made & the case come to trial, but the killers are almost invariably set free.