for each other and everyone concerned? I'm not trying to start a complaint session, but a hopefully useful and consciousness raising dialogue. And yes, I know that some of this ground, if not all of it, has been discussed before. If you find the topic boring, move on!
Here's my number one issue with the hobby:
Lack of or poor communication or consideration.
I initially contact a provider with references from well known well reviewed ladies plus my personal cell # and email address, plus my date check member number, plus a little bit about myself, plus the dates and times that work for me for a couple of weeks out. I hear back far less than 1/2 of the time when contacting ladies through their website. Far far less than that when contacting ladies through date-check. And I'm talking about ladies with recent reviews. For the record - I don't try again. If a lady contacts me after an unreasonable interval I reply politely but I do not make arrangements to see her.
I have had appreciation expressed for a review I've written one time out of 21. I believe that it takes more time and effort to write a review than it does to respond to an email or phone call asking for a reference. But I always ask a lady if I may have a reference from her before giving out her information, and I always thank her afterward for her time and courtesy.
I always write an email thanking a lady for her hospitality and company after a date. I have received this type of email from only one of the ladies I have seen. (Oh, and I have reviewed only a fraction of the ladies I have seen).
I have never NC/NSd a lady but I've had it done to me. I have never canceled an appointment at the last minute but it has been done to me many times. (The last two incidences were both medical reasons and totally justified - you know who you are - I am NOT talking about you xoxo ' ) It seems to me that one would try to make it up to someone if you had inconvenienced or disappointed them. I've had that courtesy offered to me ONE time.
Ok, I've seen a few CL specials here and there a while back, but even discounting them this still a problem. Truthfully I had less drama with the CL specials overall than with some very highly reviewed ladies.... (ducking now)
The whole point of the hobby is to have enjoyable NSA time together uncluttered with drama, and for the lady to receive compensation for same. If I want drama, I can date civvys (which I do now and then...) If there is drama involved with trying to get together, or with being together, or a lack of communication or consideration it lessens the likelihood of an enjoyable experience, and significantly reduces the likelihood of a repeat. Both the gent and the lady loose out.
At the end of the day, sex is sex. I do not find all that much difference from one lady to another as far as the mechanics go. It's the presentation, and the intangibles, that count. I don't know about everyone else, but better communication, more consideration - really just plain manners in my view, would not only make my experience better but would result in more dates for the ladies in question, which is good for them from a business standpoint. Win-Win.
Ok, ladies - I am already scrupulously clean, well groomed, arrive closely shaven (both of me), with good oral hygiene, gentlemanly and respectful, timely. I already book multi hour dates, frequently give gifts or a tip. I am non intrusive, non possessive. I am a considerate, teachable and responsive sex partner. And I am gentle with the sensitive bits, unless you specify otherwise.
If there are issues in addition to these which would make your "experience of me" better, I will be glad, actually genuinely appreciative, to hear them.
Too much talk about prostitution. I can understand some confusion and some mention, but I see the Hobby as a separate issue from prostitution. And rarely does anyone differentiate between the two when posting about prostitution here. The disclaimers on this site and the disclaimers on provider sites are pretty clear about the subject, but hobbyist seem clueless sometimes.
I agree with you. I think we should not use the word unless referring to the exploitative usually street level kind of thing, or genuine "white" slavery. And I'd rather that talk of this was found on the P&R board and not on GD. My 2c
I posted a reply to a post like this very recently, and was surprised that there no responses from providers. I've experienced the same problems as you, with less than half of the ladies getting back to me in any fashion. I had thought that it was just me, as I am/was new without any references. Apparently not however.
I'd really, really like to see some providers respond in here, as so far it seems most honestly don't care?
(my post will show up later because of the mod approval, so if some providers reply in the meantime, I'm not ignoring that you were nice enough to respond to the topic)
I'd like to offer a bit of a rebuttal on two of your points --
I'm one of those providers who simply doesn't respond to most of the emails I receive -- even some of the good, complete, well-written ones. There are just too many emails -- especially for "low-volume" providers (I recently took my website down and stopped posting ads because of this problem). It seems more polite just to not respond than to tell you that we're booked for the next two weeks, we don't really feel like tracking down your references when someone else can give us his online corporate profile, or you just don't fit our mental profile of an "ideal client" (whatever that is).
If someone would like to volunteer an "application denied" form letter, I'd be happy to send it along to people in the future!
Also, I don't respond to reviews. You should write a review assuming that the lady won't see it at all -- if you expect a "thank you" note at the end, how accurate of a review are you writing?
Thank you notes after dates are always nice though
Hello - thank you for your post. I understand your position. If my experience has any statistical validity, it bears out what I've seen in response to my post - around 1/2 of ladies do not respond to contacts for various reasons, and about 1/2 do respond to well qualified contacts as a matter of normal practice. I see your point about reviews as well.
I recognize that my sense of what is mannerly may well more strict than is the accepted norm today. I was raised in Germany, in the 50s, and the manners with which I was raised are rather well imprinted on me. So I accept, as my issue, that others may not feel compelled to act as I would.
that include discussion of money or extremely vulgar language. I am seeking discreet gentlemen and neither of those are what I consider to be discreet. If your email is respectful, I will reply, even if it is to tell you I am not available. After the initial date, your future contacts can be more sexy and descriptive, that's fine. Also, occasionally, your emails land in my junk folder and I forget to look there sometimes. Sorry!
If you have asked me to screen you and have given me your personal info and/or provider reference, I assume we will have a date soon. If I don't hear back from you after I have cleared you, then I feel like I was dumped or forgotten. Some of us screen by using provider references, so not only am I taking time to do my research on you, but often another lady is looking you up or trying to remember you as well. So, now you have taken time out of two ladies schedules! and, to not get back to me is slightly inconsiderate. I much prefer a quick little call or email saying that your schedule has changed and an apology for any inconvenience. I try to be equally considerate in return.
Many guys contact me by phone so I don't have a way to email them after a date. My website states that I do not return phone calls unless instructed by you to do so. That's because I don't know if you are calling from your private cell phone or if your voice mail is private. If I knew it was okay, I would call after every date because I really do enjoy you guys and would love to tell you how much I enjoyed your company!
The thing I hate most is NCNS's. It's just down right rude! I turn away others who might have asked for the same time and then you don't show and don't cancel?? BAD. BAD. BAD.
Hello - It goes without saying that a gentleman is responsible to know how to conduct himself by email or in person, and to know what information to provide when initiating contact with a lady. First step of course is to view your website for your preferred etiquette and requested information. That some "gentlemen" fail to do this is something that I realize, but do not understand. I would not expect you to respond to an ill conceived or rude communication of any sort.
And I do understand and appreciate the fact that screening takes some time. I need to schedule appointments two to three weeks out sometimes, but I usually make this clear in a contact email.
I appreciate your consideration for the discretion of others in terms of contact protocols as well.
NCNS is inexcusable unless you had a major medical event or car accident, or some other truly life changing event happen. Of course, I see this both in terms of identifying with your justifiable unhappiness with NCNS as well as viewing the matter from the perspective of a gentleman.
I am not sure what some providers do with thier friends but I make sure these are at the top of my list:
1) Always thank someone for emailing you and inquiring about you.
2) Always thanks someone after you've seen him, to include his review of you if given one.
3) Always ask what he would like to drink, his favorite color, what he would like me to wear?
4) Always ask him if he's allergic to any perfumes, oils or pet hair?
5) Always make sure my Incall is clean, especially the bathroom and bedroom (and with clean bedding -- that goes without saying). I also spray air freshener, spray linen spray and use unscented candles (or I try to anyway).
6) I keep a clean and pretty glass for him with mouthwash nearby in the bathroom, an oversized towel for him to shower with, the necessary items on the nightstand and wonderful bath soap (liquid and hard).
7) I have a chilled glass ready for him with his favorite beverage.
8) I ask him what music he would like to listen to, and I keep enough light on to see but still be romantic (unless otherwise stated).
9) I freshen up (again) right before he rings my doorbell (if doing Incall) or when I get to his place, to include breath mints.
10) I check for rough feet, dirty nails, make sure I have smooth legs & kitty , and clean teeth before my date.
Those are just the aestetics, but great conversation and sensuality is so important to me. I believe in pampering the entire body with my hands and mouth.
Hi Ciara - You sound very gracious. I really like the Arizona and New Mexico. If I have a chance to visit your area, I will contact you in advance to discuss the possibilities....
Now if only all the ladies were so meticulous, I would not be such a skeptic. Checking for rough feet, that's what I call attention to detail. I love that.
Thanks for representing well. You speak with sophistication and act with your heart in making a man feel as special as he is when in your company. A date with you sounds like heaven.
Gregory, you should write a "how to hobby as a gentleman" manual and post it in the newbie forum permanently. You should be getting the best available to you, given your protocol and gentlemanly mannor. I think that you stand out clearly as a desireable companion to any provider from the initial email that you describe sending and onward throughout your experience with the provider.
Someone of great authority in the industry recently described providers to me and a group of other providers as "hard core adult entertainers that engage in full contact with strangers". The problem that you are pointing to with communication lies in that definition of who we are. Mainly, the "strangers" part.
If both parties of the experience perceive that it will be shared between strangers, then communication and consideration would not be logical or natural elements of the experience. In order for both parties to put consideration and communication into the experience, they have to first become known to eachother as unique individual people. This is the first step to building intimacy between them as well.
In order to begin a RELATIONSHIP with a new gentleman requesting my companionship, I open the line of communication immediately and set up the opportunity for intimacy to occur. To me,full body contact with a complete stranger is what leads to unfulfilling, unsatisfying experiences for the gentleman. So it is important to me to spend time beforehand getting to know my new companion through chat or email. If this is not possible, then I will surely spend a significant portion of our time together discovering who the gentleman is to maximize my contribution to him.
This is a sample response to a gentleman who requests my companionship through my website:
"Thanks so much for visiting my web site and for completing the contact form. I am very excited to meet you and take an erotic adventure with you. I assure you that our time together will be very special and that you are already very special to me.
I do not take for granted that you have chosen me to be your companion, when you have so many from which to choose. I take pride in providing you with an experience that leaves you feeling both filled and fulfilled. In order to do that, I would like to get to know a little more about you and your interests. Please feel free to make this an on-going dialogue via email up until the time we actually meet. This dialogue can include requests made by you of me to prepare for our time in specific ways and any questions you may have about me.
Here are some questions I have for you. Your answers will maximize your investment in our time together:
How did you find me? What are qualities that you perceive in me that motivated you to choose me as your companion rather than someone else? Beyond mentioning any specific sexual acts, what would make this experience unique and special for you? Have you written any reviews for previous providers you have seen? If so, where, and how can I identify them? In the event that I need to contact you by phone because of an emergency, or last minute detail, is it ok to call, leave a voice mail, and/or text message you? Up until this date, describe an experience with a woman that took you to new heights of pleasure and fulfillment. What about this experience caused you to reach those new heights of pleasure and fulfillment? (It's ok to talk about sexual acts in your answer to this question.) What part of a woman's body is most erotic to you? Why? Please include your references in your response to me. You may choose from the following appointment times, given the dates you are available: X X X
I look forward to an amazing experience of eroticism with you! xxoo"
In addition to redefining our experiences with eachother as intimate encounters with friends or something similar, we need to develop standards of protocol for both sides and teach basic manners and communication to both sides. Yes, I am horrified to hear of your experiences with rude or unresponsive providers who are probably complaining that they don't have enough business right now. However, I am equally horrified by the way some of the hobbyists speak to and behave towards providers.
For providers, there is no "provider school" to go to. And, most women enter this industry without being savvy in business and standard business protocol/customer relations. Those are skills that have to be learned and then refined by social and professional experiences that reinforce good manners, consideration, and mutual respect.
We providers need to take responsibility for our part and create the protocol and be role models to those who don't know how to implement the protocol and communicate effectively. We can elevate the level of service provided by all providers by supporting and networking with each other, sharing ideas and resources, and respecting/appreciating each other and the work we do like nobody else can.
However, you hobbyists have an important role to play in creating better service for yourselves. Unfortunately, many (perhaps most) women in general, but particularly women in this industry, don't have experiences to reinforce mutual respect and consideration because many men don't treat women with the respect and reverence that is rightfully ours. For some reason society has made it normal and okay to disrespect and degrade providers.
For every hobbyist that calls up and makes an appointment and keeps it, there are at least ten that don't, for a mild example of disrespect that we experience regularly. Can you imagine trying to convince your own self, let alone others that you are operating a serious business where mutual respect is the foundation of the relationships you build when your clients don't even acknowledge that by reserving a time with you, they now stop you from using that time for other opportunities and that you count on the income from that time booked to feed your kid or pay your rent?
Hobbyists need to be responsible for treating providers and their business with the respect, kindness, adoration and consideration that we deserve. And its not enough just to behave that way yourself, a real gentleman takes responsibility to set standards for all hobbyists' interactions with providers, teach it regularly, and reinforce it by not tolerating any man acting outside of the standards you have set by your example for interactions with a provider. Many men were not taught how to be gentlemen or behave with chivalry, yet you stand shoulder to shoulder with them in the same hobby and in the same community of people. When providers have experiences with men that reinforce mutual respect and consideration, it is definitely more likely that you will get the same in return.
While I adore the gentlemen that I regularly interact with, it hasn't stopped shocking me everytime I see a hobbyist degrading a provider. It makes no sense to me that someone would pay good money for something that he clearly does not value or respect.
to this discussion. You sound like a fantastic lady. I do realize (but do not understand) that providers at every level are subject to disrespect. I cannot imagine how difficult it must be to try to provide a high quality experience and at the same time be subject to a high percentage of NC/NS or unappreciative behavior. I could not do it.
Very well thought out response Torrid, and very good points. I am pleasantly surprised at the attitude and respect you portray in your sample email, as well as your entire post.
One stands out to me to expand upon.
Where respect is such a large issue, (I very much agree with this) If a lady gets an email that is phrased respectfully, if she does not reply to it, (those that have not learned to for whatever reason) then she should not be surprised if she does not see very respectful gentlemen.
So ladies, if someone takes the time to write out a polite, respectful email, sends it, but gets none in reply, then she is not showing him any respect in return. In which case he will more than likely move on to another provider until he finds one that will treat him with the same respect he offers her. A worse possibility is that he keeps in contact with her, but loses all respect for her and treats her accordingly. If you're experiencing worse and worse mannered hobbyists, and you have not been respectful in communication, this is most likely part of the cause.
It takes respect to recieve respect, likewise disrespectful, rude, no-shows, etc, breed the like as well.
I do realize there are a LOT of rude fellows, no shows, etc, no matter how respectful we are. But when ladies such as Torrid still maintain a respectful attitude, and communicate well with a genuine interest in making a warm and emotional connection, I'll keep trying to be respectful and polite in every email I send, and in every meeting I have.
Theres actually a quote that I try and live by, which is "A man should love a woman and treat her as if she were his own body" I'm misquoting I know, but it's hard to be rude, cruel, and disrespectful towards someone when you view them as a mirror of yourself.
Poor communication and consideration are 2 very frustrating things. I would also have to add lack of respect but this is from a lady's stand point. It is not only the select few gentlemen that have a lack of respect but sometimes there are a few ladies in the hobby that have it too. I understand we all have lives outside of here so I automatically think that everyone else should understand that too, and for the most part they do. But, there are a few in this hobby that make it their whole life and lose sight of how we all have separate lives to lead. It get's frustrating when this happens. If I don't answer my phone when you call me at 12:00, please don't call me back at 12:01 and then again at 12:02 and one more time at 12:03. You probably won't want to hear what I am going to say when you call me back yet again at 12:04. LOL!
when it becomes an obsession and a substitute for otherwise living. I cringe at the many stories I've heard from ladies over the years about men who become obsessive or possessive, or act as though the lady should always be at their beck and call. I do not have the fortitude to deal with many of the things that a lady in this biz does on a regular basis. And I could not stand to be reviewed!
I second that. What about when we get treated like the rest???? I mean-I don't do the things other ladies do as far as screening. I have my own way. I rather continue to see Quality gents over just anyone! We're all individualistic in our ways.
i agree with you that good manners seem to be a rarity these days, in life in general, and the hobby is no exception. i try to always be courteous and polite with those who contact me, whether i feel a particular gent is someone i wish to communicate with further or not. the only emails i completely ignore and send straight to the trash bin are those which are either rude or cryptic...rude, as in making some bold sexual innuendo, and cryptic, as in "john 555-0105."
from what you have shared of the way you go about an initial email contact, it would certainly be more than adequate for the majority of ladies. however for myself, i could only send you a polite response stating that we would not be well-suited for one another, and wishing you all the best, peace and light. that is because your email would contain references from other providers (showing me that you see providers...multiple providers...on a regular basis), date check info (again, showing your experience with multiple providers, probably over a long period of time), and would mention a date and/or time when you wished to make an appointment. those things are all very contrary to the way i personally conduct myself in this hobby...and that is what this is about for me, truly, a hobby and a passion, not a business. therefore i do not take a businesslike approach...i'm looking for particular types of gentlemen, those particular gents who are seeking someone like me to fill a void in their lives. someone who needs that genuine connection with another human being. the kind of initial contact i respond well to would be an email from the gentleman telling me about himself (real name, marital status, race, age, type of work, etc.), telling me what he is looking for (compassion, understanding, acceptance, whatever the case may be), and telling me what about me as an individual appealed to him and prompted him to contact me. it would also include the personal information i request in every ad, such as a phone number and appropriate days and times in which to call him, as i do not share my own personal number with gentlemen i have never seen. no mention whatsoever would be made of booking an appointment, as that could only be decided once we have taken the time (thru emails and real phone conversations) to get to know one another and judged whether or not the connection and chemistry was right.
but of course, that is just the way i do things. i do not think badly of those who take a more business-like approach, i just would not be suited for a hobbyist who operated that way. if he has taken the time to send a courteous and detailed email to me, then i will take the time to send a courteous response.
and I certainly understand that ladies have differing concepts on which they base their practices. I hope that you are finding many of the type of gentlemen that you wish to meet - and I am sure that they consider themselves very fortunate to make your acquaintance - Cheers - Gregory
Providers are expected to really like to kiss hobbyists. Hobbyists want a real connection with their provider. Hobbyists want their provider to light them up like never before erotically. And, the whole list that Gregory gave and the whole list of things providers are reviewed about. And, hobbyists want providers to be able to accomplish this within the time frame of an hour or two, with no prior experience of each other and are reluctant sometimes to even exchange emails prior to the date.
Surely after reading the way lilli goes about choosing the gentlemen she sees and building a relationship with them over a period of time, some of you can see that your expectations are much more realistic when her approach is applied.
I don't know how a young woman who lacks sophistication inherently by her age and lack of life experience could come close to delivering a real "10" performance with those expectations, time limitations, and other limitations. And, even a more mature woman who does have experience and sophistication better be an extraordinary woman with extraordinary talents and intelligence, fully self expressed and actualized to fill that bill successfully.
I think that the underlying issue is that lilli's approach is a very REAL approach. She is not conducting a business or even providing a service for that matter.
Most women who enter this industry have earning money and making this a business venture as a goal. And, most hobbyists don't seem to want to engage in the lengthy process that lilli requires. It seems like if they were, they would find a girlfriend, who would cost them just as much out of their pocket anyway.
Somebody correct me if I am wrong here, because the explaination I have given is the only way I have been able to make sense out of matching expectations of the time spent with a provider with some variation of the standard business practices of this industry. The contribution I make is very real too, but I found that I had to learn how to make that contribution within the time constraints and limitations of running a business. I just didn't find that most hobbyists were very willing to engage in or tolerant of a process like lilli has described.
I commend you lilli. I am sure the gentlemen who enjoy the relationships you build with them are very lucky, happy and fulfilled.
I too am delighted at Lilli's way of doing things. ( I wonder where you're located Lilli? perhaps you could send me an email? )
I'm also delighted at the way Torrid handles and expresses herself.
I actually would much prefer a more lengthy approach to things, but found that most providers do not like it. (I can understand actually, there are a lot of time wasters with no interest in an actual date)
One of the first contacts I had with a provider was with a younger woman. I sent 2 emails, asked if maybe we could email back and forth a little before meeting to get to know each other. I sent another email, explaining about myself, which was fairly long. She replied she was not interested in meeting me, and that I shared too much and brought too much baggage. In retrospect I think she was right about my sharing too much, but I still would like to find a lady that would be willing to send a few emails back and forth getting to know each other, rather than just references, an hour with each other, and out the door.
This is also why I am looking now for a more mature woman. They are beautiful in body, mind, and spirit. They seem to listen more, take their time, and have a lot more grace. I am astounded actually that anyone could cram a meaningful emotional experience into an hour or an hour and a half, and am very much looking forward to discovering how a mature lady would do it, because to me it seems almost impossible. (A lot of respect to those of you who do.)
Unfortunately many women in their late 30s, 40s and 50s are unwilling to see a younger man such as myself.
can take many forms. I always book multi hour dates, and am a slow mover with a lady as we learn about each other. I am not "goal oriented". I find that investing time in a handful at least of multi hour dates brings the relationship to a new level. I expect to make this investment every time I meet a new lady with whom I believe such a relationship might be mutually rewarding. I do not believe that the once and done, 1hr approach can be expected to yield what I am looking for, and any hobbyist who has similar hopes to mine should understand that up front. Thanks - Gregory
You are right Gregory, First I would like to say I am a young provider but many find me fun and easy to talk to, especially when it comes to real life issues. I love meeting with long times friends because the chemistry is so unbelievable it just feels oh so right. I never like to fake the funk, C'mon we all know there is always that small chance that meeting that someone for the first time might be no connection but for me it's almost rare. I never like to fake the funk, I have accepted sometimes I may not be someones "cup of tea" but like I said that's rare. I learned just to be me, and so far I have never failed to have a wonderful time with whom ever I come across.
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