Barbi brought up something very important, which I’m glad, but it opened this up for me to ask you about , too.

Some of the ladies have talked about this, and since I’ve also experienced it, I thought maybe you could help in understanding and make it better for us all.

Let’s see..how do I begin?
Ok, for us, we think ok, it’s an X- hour appt., and on the agenda we have: drinks and Hor D'oeuvres, some chatting, maybe sitting by the fire, maybe even Jacuzzi time, and then, of course, playtime. In our minds, we’re thinking about the ‘flow’ of things and how to best have a nice flow to the evening, covering all the bases best to his satisfaction. Let’s face it, one important goal is his ‘completion’ (s)
That’s the objective. How’s the best way to plan it..?

So, off we go. We have drinks, snacks, more drinks, chatting, sit by the fire, listen to music, and start to get cuddly..

Now, let’s say she starts giving him a bj, and she’s working on it, working on him, and 40 minutes passes and she’s getting somewhere, and he makes her stop – just as she is finally getting somewhere! He makes her stop, and says something like, let’s go have some more wine, sit by the fire, eat some more, talk some more or something else, and Willy is now deflated. Her 40 minute effort just died on the vine, without ripening..! This is very disheartening to us!

Then, you start playing around again, something different, and you get back around to the bj, work on it for 20 minutes, it’s finally getting somewhere, and he makes you stop again. “Let’s go do this now”..Again, Willy goes back to first base..
Only now, time is running out, and we still haven’t accomplished the things we wanted to do, and the goal is now more difficult to achieve, not to mention ruining the ‘flow’!

I didn’t want to say this, but, personally, I had a client who did this on purpose. He strung out the two-hour date so that it lasted for four, and only PAID FOR TWO! I can say this with conviction because he dated 4 of us ladies, and we all had the same report. I gave him three chances, and three times he shorted me (us), and I don’t need to tell you that I no longer see him! Lesson learned..

So, help us out here because we’re trying to figure out WTF?? Why do they do that?
I can understand, if a guy is a ‘one pop’ guy, and he wants to wait as long as he can and then pop, but why work counter productively??

Also, if there are questions, requests, concerns that you want us to know – tell us!
To us it doesn’t make sense for them to allow us to work on them for a length of time (working up a good sweat, I might add) only for it to be ‘foiled’.

Help??


(hey, 'sis', this post’s for you..)

Sedona,

 This is a hard question to answer, as I have never seen this guy. I find that it helps me to Play as I go along, always touching and teasing and some nasty conversation. They can
only take so much teasing!;0

You just have to drive them F*cking Crazy and I have all the faith in the world that you can do this Babe! LOL

Also, We have control over who we want to see. If a Guy takes
advantage,  you don't have to see him ever again!

I have been in this business awhile and have learned that only I am in control of my own Happiness and what takes to make it!
                    Love Ya!  Sis

Because they are men.

You have your good clients that represent a part of society that respects women and people as a whole.
And then you have those, that represent the part of the human nature that manipulates and takes advantage of others, and has no respect for those that they leave in there path.

“Why do they do that?”
“It doesn’t make sense for them to allow us to work on them for a length of time only for it to be ‘foiled’.” Unfortunately, I think the answers are clear…


Next time I see my princess, think I’ll stop and get her some flowers on the way, just to let her know I appreciate her…thanks!

SM




-- Modified on 12/6/2003 8:35:09 PM

It appears that meeting a good decent client or provider is always something that we as decent human beings look forward to in this hobby and in life.  
Good luck to all you beautiful and kind providers and clients and may the Holidays bring you all happiness in the people you meet and in life.

                                jammers the strange

The time issue is a sensitive one.  As a client I believe that providers need to take responsibility for ending the session on time.  It may be difficult to do tactfully, but do so you must.  Let me tell you why.

We clients believe that you providers are keeping track of the time.  We have been told often enough "Our time is almost up".  In our society that is standard in a professional relationship.  Shrinks, Lawyers, Personal Trainers.  Whatever.  The one charging for their time keeps track of their time.  And if they let us stay late, we think it's intended as a little gift.  Almost a reverse tip.  I am not saying it's right or wrong or what you intended.  I am simply explaining the client mentality.

Besides, however much time I make the appointment for, that's how much money I bring with me.  Usually because that's as much as I can afford.  And as we are encouraged to relax and not worry about anything during a session, the last thing I do is look at the clock (if there even is one).  

As for acting counterproductively, I can explain that a little too.  Even though this is a professional relationship, and we shouldn't be uncomfortable talking about what we want, it's really hard to say "I have a problem with premature ejaculation, and I can only cum once, so I'll need to stop and cool down a few times to make the session really the best it can be."  Sure, if you can be honest with the provider and explain all that, you'll have a better session, but that doesn't make it easy to say.

And, for the record, I personally schedule more time than I think I'll need, and always try to be upfront with the provider about any such issues.  It's just being considerate for the providers time, and also increases the chance of a better session.  And since I have started with this philosophy, I have yet to have a bad session.  Essentially it comes down to what is said in many, many, reviews.  Guys, treat them right and you'll have a better time.  Pretty much a good rule for life.  

-- Modified on 12/6/2003 10:34:46 PM

Hmm, a very good question.

First, I think there is something of a conundrum here:  the goal of all meetings for me is to reach the state where I really do “forget it is service” and hopefully get the Lady to feel the same.  But the more the two of us get to this goal, the less likely either of us is to pay attention to the time.  I don’t think I know the definitive answer, but I believe BOTH parties share the responsibility, maybe not equally, but close to it.  Both are actively engaged in the activities, so why wouldn’t they be?

I will admit I have often gone over time.  I don’t keep track, but I’d estimate it is probably about half the time.  Typically not 2 hrs over on a 2 hour appointment (I would certainly agree that is extremely excessive in most cases), but often 15 to 30 minutes over on a 2 hour date.  Do I enjoy the extra time?  Of course!  Have I ever been chastised about it?  No.  And I have never been turned down for a follow up date (so far at least), so if I upset them they haven't said so.  I think if a Lady said she was upset about it I would pay more attention to ending on time the next visit.

I do one thing that seems to make the extra time more tolerable to the Ladies:  I try to make sure that by the end of regulation, I have been quite satisfied, and then in overtime I focus primarily on making sure that she is getting the majority of the attention and affection.  The most common way we spend overtime is my giving her a full body massage, having brought my own oils, appropriate CDS, and towels when I can.  I often get extra time in exchange for such attentions, and from what I can tell we are both happy to do it.  On a couple occasions I have technically gone “way overtime” when the Lady fell asleep in my hotel during the massage.

But clearly, at the first indication that a Lady desires to leave after regulation time, she has every right to.  Period.  That’s all that was contracted for, regardless of the results or lack thereof in that time.  Anything past that should ALWAYS be mutually desired.

Don't know that this addresses most people's situations, but it's some thoughts.

...in that there are just some plane jerks out there who will try to get more for their buck than was agreed.  

There are those who will ask and who will pay more if time went over and there are those who will assume that you should have said something, and there are those who will intentionally over extend.  The first is the good guy. The second may be OK or may be just waiting for the word from the lady and if nothing is said he may feel like he got a little something for nothing.  He is IMHO a little jerk because he really knows better and is a smiling inside when he gets away with it.  This is like getting too much change at the store and not saying anything.  The last guy is the obvious jerk because he planned on doing this.  Then there is the guy who leaves the empty envelope...

There is a separate issue here, however, in the performance relm.  I for one, can have a bigger pop if I take a long time in foreplay.  So getting close then backing off a time or two works to build to a bigger O for me.  I usually let the lady do her thing for a while then I switch to DATY or something that stays in the sexual activity mode rather than go for the total cool down like having a drink.  But the delay is enhancing for the finale.  Another thing I do is plan the dinner date.  I play both before and after din-din.  For my age this allows for ample time for the troups to re-group for another round.  It also lets both of us experience the other person from a more intelectual point of view.

he was taking advantage of you.

40 minutes on a BJ?  Wow.  We've gotta meet.

I'm going to be blunt about this, so please don't think I'm being an insensitive a'hole, but the ladies are asking why clients drag it on so I'm going to give my opion about me.

First of all, I think the hourly fee for the average provider is outrageous, so for 300 bucks (and that seems to be the minimum nationwide) I'm going to make sure I get my money's worth.

Now... define "money's worth"... well we need to see what the client really wants from a provider to properly define this.  I think if we all look to this weeks poll question, we have our answer.  84% of clients see a provider for sex, NOT companionship.  I know for a fact that I do.

Get rid of the chit chat, the wine tasting, the cuddling by the fire... give me 60 minutes of intercourse.  If I wanted the all the other stuff, I'd be with my girlfriend... NOT you.

If you don't want me around after 60 minutes, then perhaps lower your fee so I don't feel like such a loser when I leave.  After every appointment, no matter how good the sex was, I leave saying "you know I could have spent that money towards something much more productive and meaningful".  When I leave, I think "there went 300, 400 (or more) with nothing to show for it afterwards".... in 3 hours my money will still be gone, but I'll still be horny.  So part of my feeling better about my expense is to get all that I can from the provider... which usually means trying to get an extra 15 - 30 minutes of action.

Ladies need understand that placing a price tag on their body will make it difficult for a man to show respect for it. I know that sounds mean, but that's the truth about life.  Do you respect the guy as much, knowing he's "paying for it".  If you did, the perhaps you wouldn't be asking these questions to begin with.  Maybe respect isn't the issue at all.  In order for guys to be more considerate of the provider, they have to be less concerned about the money.  The only way they'll be less concerned is if there is less involved.  If you want to charge more, then I want to get more.  That's how the business world works, and this is a business.  You can't look beyond that.

I hope I haven't offended anyone too badly.

and I'm also offended at your lack of respect!

Providers are Real People too! (or did you forget that!)

You and I would never click! I give a person a great deal of respect.
but I also demand it back!

This World is really lacking in common courtesy and its a damn
shame!

Wow, 40 minutes for a BJ?

Can I get a providers discount? LOL

I hire out for an hour and usually spend 2-3 hours.   4 hours of time always ends up being 6-8.  If you want the session to end, then end it.  It will show up in the post as such and guys will know that 1 hr means 1 hr.  Otherwise, I don't think you can blame a guy for expecting what others have gotten.  

I feel bad knowing that Barbi didn't want it that way, but at the same time I have never seen a post saying she (or you) ended it after an hour.  Precidence set the time and rate and it is a hard one to break.  

You will probably loose a few clients and not get some of the ones who would have scheduled before seeing posts that you ended at exactly one hour, but it sounds like that will make you a happier person and sometimes that is important than money.

you give more in your business because you suspect you will get something in return.  A nice contract, a good referral, a bonus, something.  This is your choice.

Do you expect ladies to give you 2 or 3 hours when you book one?

It's one thing to give, it's another to expect, and still another to manipulate.

You begin your appointments angry about the cost (which you knew up front), hoping to take time advantage of the lady. That's not fair.

There have been numerous threads about fee negotiation over the months. Some ladies have said they'll negotiate their rates for favored clients. If they choose to do so with you, lucky for you - but it seems VERY unlikely you'll benefit from such negotiations with your attitude.

Surprised at all this overtime stuff -- more my experience to have the provider get it up, get it in, get it off, & hurry to get out!  

What about this folks?

"After every appointment, no matter how good the sex was, I leave saying "you know I could have spent that money towards something much more productive and meaningful".  

If that's the way you feel why are you in the hobby to begin with?  Find a civilian to rock your world or find a $50 street walker.

"Get rid of the chit chat, the wine tasting, the cuddling by the fire... give me 60 minutes of intercourse.  If I wanted the all the other stuff, I'd be with my girlfriend... NOT you."

Having been a providor for a year now I can honestly say I have not run into any client who was just there for the sex.  I used to go straight to the sex and THEY slowed it down and wanted the chit chat and cuddling.

"Ladies need understand that placing a price tag on their body will make it difficult for a man to show respect for it."

Again, after a year in the hobby I have not found that to be the case at all.  I find hobbiests, for the most part, to be very kind and respectful men in all ways.  Thank God you are not representative of the average hobbiest.  I think you need to find another way to spend your time and money.... for your sake and for the sake of all providors out there.

Hope I didn't offend you too much.

I bet you don't have any LADIES (providers) waiting by the phone
for you to call.

You would be a definate One Timer for ME!  

What do you think Ladies? Do you think that he needs to Lose
the Attitude?  Thank Godness, We have a Choice on who to see!


Amen Sisters!

If you should ever write me to meet, I will refer you to the street walker charging 50.00 for your wham bam thank you maam kind of session. Otherwise, I look forward to the average gentleman out there, who is seeking a complete GFE with the kissing, cuddling, A-Z type of service. This is why I love what I do! I enjoy pampering, pleasing, my gentlemen friends, in every which way I can.

Shame on you!

-- Modified on 12/7/2003 8:20:17 AM

If you don't want to be taken advantage of, you will need to start being more assertive when you meet your next client, and just inform him that you have another appt., at this particular time, and that you will need time to get freshed up, make the bed, etc., after your session ends. Of course, you say this to him politely, so that he understands, and not take offense As someone suggested (either from this posting or another one below, similiar to this one), get yourself a cd player with a timer on it, and have it go off 15 minutes before Or exactly at the time ending, just to give you heads up. Good luck on your next venture!

ProviderAdvocate.

"Ladies need understand that placing a price tag on their body will make it difficult for a man to show respect for it. I know that sounds mean, but that's the truth about life.  Do you respect the guy as much, knowing he's "paying for it".  If you did, the perhaps you wouldn't be asking these questions to begin with.  Maybe respect isn't the issue at all.  In order for guys to be more considerate of the provider, they have to be less concerned about the money.  The only way they'll be less concerned is if there is less involved.  If you want to charge more, then I want to get more.  That's how the business world works, and this is a business.  You can't look beyond that."

Much of what you wrote I can sympathise with, but not this. At the least, don't generalise it to all men. I'm not like this, and I suspect others aren't either. Just because you pay for a service, you respect the service provider (in any profession) less for it? It sounds to me as if you're hiring GFE providers when what you want is a PSE experience. For myself, I'm also paying for the companionship and the illusion of romance, especially on  multi-hour date. Thus the conversation, flirting, and the foreplay are what I want -- especially *forgetting* for a while that this is a business transaction.

Of course, I'm one of the minority in the "sex vs. companionship" survey on the front page, so perhaps that explains our differences.

--b.

-- Modified on 12/7/2003 9:05:30 AM

I feel that the provider times the whole session. She (should) know if the appt is for an hour, 2 hours, whatever and plan accordingly.  Often when a provider asks me what I would like, I tell her (truthfully if not literally) that I am in her hands.  I usually go for a provider that offers a massage right off (and is reviewed for this skill) which also allows her to really time the session well.  Only once did I really go over time, but this was at her insistence.  When I said I did not have enough cash on hand to cover it, she told me not to worry, she was done for the night anyhow.  We chatted quite a bit, had some wine, and then...well...I was still in her hands.  Nonetheless, a provider usually should send a clear signal that time's up kiddo!

Perhaps make a longer minimum session to begin with, without going too high with the cost..arrive at a donation that will make you happier than the 1 hr, but will also not unduly burden the client?  Instead of an hour, do an hour and a half and set up your subsequent appointments with allotment for the occasional extra time that happens with certain clients even with this extended appointment.  I think setting a cd that will end perhaps 10-15 minutes before the time is up is good.  This will be the definitive signal to you and the subconscious one to him that the session is concluding.  You will then have time in the event that the client wishes to shower, etc and/or have your final blowout ;P ...it will be apparent for both parties that it is the grand finale if there is not so much background noise (the cd/porno/what have you!).  You may want to encourage longer dates as well, since it appears that men really enjoy your company and if a guy really frustrates you, you shouldn't have to do business with them again or you should have lines of communication open so that you can ever so gently hint that you cannot give more of yourself and yet not be compensated accordingly.

Wow. Thank you all for some excellent replies! Other than the experience I mentioned that I had with one client, I posted this on behalf of the ladies that had this question.

I saw this post as being about two things: time management and the ‘flow’ of the session in getting to a desired point within that time frame.

Some men are more comfortable if the lady takes the lead during the session, but I am more comfortable following the man’s lead, just like dancing. For one, he’s the one who knows how his body operates, and thank you Waterclone for pointing out the Premature Ejaculation situation.
For me, I like the man to get as much enjoyment as he can during the session – whatever that means. In the way of pops, if that means two or three, great!
Sometimes I like to start off with the bbbjtc (no CIM) as that’s a good ice breaker, and gets him relaxed enough that we can then have some chit chat, wine, and build up for round two and three! But, I think what I was trying to say, is that seeing that you’re getting somewhere in the process is helpful – spending 40 minutes to an hour and having no results, and no comments makes you wonder what’s going on and why, not to mention how it kills the ‘plan’. Communication..

Not2Long’s response/s were great. Not2surprised! It’s very helpful for you to tell us that prolonging the foreplay helps for a better finale. Again, this is why I prefer the men to lead.

About the time…I don’t ‘cut off’ the appointment right at the appointed time. I almost always go over by a half an hour to an hour. Again, I want to accomplish something and if it means we go thirty more minutes to do so, that’s fine. But, Jmy68…good for you, first of all, for being a stand up guy and posting under your  real username, and admitting fault. Yes, extending as far beyond as you’ve gone is atrocious, and I hope you mend your ways. The problem here is the guys are actually expecting it. Shame on them! And thank you, Not2Long for your response, which was absolutely perfect.
Just as I don’t expect flowers, wine, chocolates, tips, or even a review, ever…these are considered ‘gifts’ to me, and anything above the appointment agreement, is considered a gift by me, and I’m always delighted for anything the gentleman cares to indulge me with. I hope the gentlemen see any time that goes over, allowed for by her, and uncompensated as a gift to you!
And ThomasJenkins..well..good for you for not using an alias. I think everyone’s responses to you were right on. In this adventure we all share, different people want different things and matching them up appropriately is the best way for all around satisfaction. I consider myself a hired date, hired companion and courtesan. We would not be a match. I think Bifur’s reply was perfect. A PSE is more along your lines.

Thanks again.

For me the prolonged foreplay not only results in a bigger pop, sometimes it's the only way for me to pop. A need to be attacked in waves.

Although I'll also admit I've stopped things entirely because I've actually felt guilty that the provider is doing too much work.

Every now and then I see posts like his. They are easy to dismiss as people who are a$$holes. It may be true, I don't know them. But it does make me think of something, which is the pressure of pricing on different hobbyists. I know it's a sensitive topic, but bear with me.

I am in a fortunate position where a $200 or $400 fee is not the biggest issue in a date. I can focus on the experience without having a mental meter running in my head all the time. This is why I tend to have travel or other long-term dates.

On the other hand, I don't think I am PERSONALLY any different from when I didn't have a regular paycheck, was being chased by creditors, and would buy old bread and rice and no orange juice to save money. In other words, I was just as needy of companionship during that time, even though my ability to pay was far lower. A $300/hr rate during that time would have bothered me a lot, even if I tried not to let it bother me.

I don't think a financial situation should change the fundamental way you treat other human beings. But it's hard to deny that financial pressure does change the context of an experience. The interesting thing is that raising prices does not fix this situation. It could make it worse. A provider is only altering statistical demand over a large population of clients. They are not changing individual demand from each client. And it is that individual demand that governs attitude, not the statistical demand (unless you believe that rich guys are somehow better than those who are not. It is my belief that there is no difference, other than the point about financial pressure I'm making here.)

My goal is not to excuse Jenkins' post or attitude. It is only to raise an issue that I find interesting, having been on both sides of it.

Treat a lady like a *****, and a ***** like a lady. At least the last half of the saying.  I imagine they probably treat the civi women like ladies, also.
For the record, I don't think of my clients' as being men who
"have to pay for it".  In fact, most would not "have" to pay for it.
Its funny how the stereotypes persist.  The guy who made that statement is probably one of the ones who is also goodlooking and successful in business and his personal life, who doesn't "have" to pay for it, but somehow wandered into one of our bedrooms.  Even the great guys often think they are the only great guy.  
And, most of my married clients see themselves as being happily married.
I think that the guys on these discussion boards are the cream of the crop.

I am truly a good client, and if everyone knew my real name and polled every provider I have seen, every one of them will tell you they wished all their clients are like me.

I knew I'd catch a lot of flack for my comments.  But I decided I'd post my opinions anyway. This forum is my way of truly expressing my hidden feelings.  Does any business owner say what they truly feel to their customers... no, they wouldn't have any business.  There is no "attitude" in there, nor am I bitter or angry... I'm just being real and looking it the situation without the rosy colored glasses.

When it comes down to it, the money involved reduces the personal "feelings", "genuine experience", "respect" or whatever you want to call the acting (by both parties) that goes on in that hour appointment.

Providers... do you truly care about how the clients day went or is it just simple preliminary conversation.  

Clients... if your favorite provider just suddenly dropped her website and posted an EOM thread stating "I'm retired", would your first thought be "I hope she's ok', "I wish her the best" or "Damn, I don't get to f*ck her anymore".

Before answering these two questions... sit and think about it first.  Can you say "yes" with regards to 99% of the clients or providers you've seen?  I have my doubts on it.

Regarding the poll... 84% want the sex rather than companionship.  If the question is too simple, then why is there such a swing to one end.... if more options needed to be involved, then I think the response would be closer to 50/50.

Anyway, those were just my opinions... I never asked anyone to support them.

That is exactly the point I was trying to make!!  Thank you sir for having the proper prose for which to say it!!

BTW - I'm a blue collar worker...and am proud to say I have no creditors on my butt and I always pay my bills!

just the same as walking out of a store with something you didn't pay for.  To try to justify it and think as highly of yourself as you do makes me think your have a rather perverted sense of reality.  If it isn't worth the money, don't buy it.  It's your choice.  Don't try to take more than you've bought.  

Sounds like you have a very low opinion of yourself for partaking in this kind of endeavor, and are trying to compensate by cheating the women.  Apparently that makes you feel better about yourself (stealing from people who can't call the cops).

With all due respect the points you make in this post have nothing to do with cost.  You make it clear that we providors are just a recepticle for you to get your rocks off.  Stop hiding behind the money issue since you seem do have much deeper issues to deal with here.

I know many blue collared workers, who are still able to treat a lady like a lady, regardless, and not like some inflatible doll. As for your lady friends who have seen you, I feel sorry for them, if they did allow some man to come into their world, with a disrespecting attitude. If a woman states her fee as 150.00, does that mean to you, that she should be treated with less respect than someone who charges 300.00 or more? I should hope not!

-- Modified on 12/7/2003 6:56:49 PM

You may not like the way TJ stated it, but he did say he was going to be blunt and not observe the usual PC soft-peddling that we're accustomed to on TER.  Perhaps I'm giving him too much credit here, but I'll explain my POV and you decide.

It's no secret that male and female sexuality is different.  Many men view sex as a recurring physical need- the daily physical release of sexual tension or energy, while many women might view the same act in more experiential terms, adding romance, intimacy, closeness, or sensuality to the mix.  We all know how these differences can lead to misunderstandings in marriage or relationships, so this isn't really news.

But these blanket generalizations only tell part of the story, however, because we are complex beings.  Sometimes a woman might fantasize about being taken forcefully (not forceably) into the stairwell of an office building by a handsome stranger she just passed in the hall.  She might imagine being pressed up against the wall and being taken with great passion and physicality.  And alternatively, a man might have times when he really does want to be held, nurtured and loved and "make love" rather than just have sex.

But even when we're alike, we're different.  The thought of that sexual fantasy might sustain a woman's passion for weeks as she replays the scenario in her head- even though she has no intention of ever following through or making it a reality.  Whereas the same fantasy for a man would usually only be a turn-on if it was in anticipation of the actual event somehow being fulfilled.

TJ mentions a few hours after seeing a provider he's horny again and wishes he hadn't spent the money.  This isn't that uncommon for men, ladies, so don't get all insulted.  Aside from the obvious fact that many men can want or need sex almost continuously, the real issue  here is that a lot of guys aren't that "experiential."  This means they'd rather buy a plasma TV or a pool table than go to Hawaii or Santa Barbara for the weekend.  How many husband/wife or BF/GF conflicts arise over this one difference?

Stated another way, many guys place a higher priority on durable goods than temporary experiences.  In some ways it may just be a "guy thing" but there is also good reason for men to feel this way-  because guys soon learn if they don't have the house, the car etc., many women aren't interested in dating them.  So again, don't prejudge here... this attitude is not that uncommon, whether they share this information with women or not.  And every male poster that jumped on TJ knows this is true.

But getting back to experiences vs. things- people that are more experiential will be more likely to incorporate, and want, some sort of emotional or romantic component into their sex life, rather than just approach it as satisfying a physical need. They will also be willing to pay for this.   Regardless of gender, these types will be happiest with sexual encounters that enhance intimacy in various ways as part of the service.  I'd speculate that the majority of women fall into this group, as well as some men- they can even be the same men who at other times just want a quick, no-frills release.  As I said, we're complex beings, and neither an individual or an entire gender lives exlusively in one camp or the other.

If a guy is in the group that views sex as a recurring physical need, and not part of a larger act of intimacy, then he will feel this need can be satisfied in many different ways, or with many different people.  In this sense, his daily physical sexual needs become commodified.  If someone, male or female, views a service or product as a commodity, then it is inevitable that it will be shopped on the basis of price and value.  We all do it everyday- at the grocery store, at the gas station, at the mall.

Now I can hear the collective panties of a thousand women getting drawn into a bunch at that statement, as they think to themselves "How dare he call me a commodity."  Fair enough, you are a unique individual, not a commodity, and you certainly don't think you are offering a commodity service.  But my point is, many of your customers think they are buying a commodity service, because that physical sexual need can be satisfied in many places and in many alternative ways.  This is probably most true with young men who have a such a high sex drive (we've all been there), and it's one of the reasons so many escorts don't like seeing younger men.  

Again, the reason being is that if you're just going to be horny again later that day or the next day for sure, then price/value, which enables greater frequency, is also an important consideration.  That's not to say that many other men don't value a higher-priced courtesan experience, or that the same guy who goes for quantity one day, doesn't want a higher quality experience the next.  Just as in the same way we all can appreciate a fine meal, even though we know we'll be hungry the next day.  But in reality, the daily fare for most of us is rather more generic.  And the daily sexual fare for most of us isn't a high-priced courtesan... it's one of the many lower cost alternatives, including amps, porn, or self-service.

So, I guarantee you that the buyer's remorse expressed by TJ is NOT that uncommon.  I'd bet that nearly every guy that has seen an escort has, at one time or another, thought he really should have used that money for something else- maybe the car needed new tires or he needed a new suit for work, or his printer died.  Those needs don't go away, and they're still waiting for you when you get home.  For the guys who are more motivated by things rather than experiences, spending money in this manner (on experiences) is difficult, especially when you know you're letting something else slide.  Also, and this is the big one, when you know you WILL want sex again later that day and hate yourself for having "blown" the money on what was a fleeting pleasure.

Ladies, you can attack this all you like, but this is a look into the inner-dialog most of your clients have with themselves before they call you to arange a date.  The exceptions are the affluent, who have enough money to avoid making these hard choices, or those who place a greater premium on experience, and will gladly pay for a satisfying time, regardless of the alternative uses for those funds- these guys don't really care, as long as they had a unique and satisfying time.   And these guys do exist- I knew a guy who lived in a tiny apartment just so he could afford a month long overseas vacation every year; that was his spending prioity.

It's not an insult to the women in this field to state that many guys will go through this thought process.  After all, this issue in its many forms is the most common problem between husbands and wives.  Keep in mind too, that it is the guys who CAN'T see the alternative sources in which their money can be spent, or are unable to prioritize their expenditures in a rational manner in order to make the right choices that get into trouble in this activity.  These are the guys that are out of control, falling in love with escorts, acting in an addictive manner, and constantly posting on this board for help.  

So lets not get too carried away blowing smoke up each other's rumps.  For most of us, life is a daily juggling act between what we want and  what we can afford.  It's one of the things that makes satisfying our desires all the sweeter when that actually occurs.  But it also can lead to feelings of guilt or remorse in many people.  This doens't make guys that feel this way jerks, it just makes them human.








-- Modified on 12/7/2003 7:57:35 PM

I'm not giving an excuse.  I'm not sorry for my posts... I just think people are going overboard on them.

You can feel sorry for all the ladies who have seen me... maybe that includes you... how do you know whether you've seen me or not, do you know who Thomas Jenkins is?  I've seen plenty of providers and some very well known with excellent reputations, I've never been disrespectful to them and they enjoyed my company.  Know me in person, then judge me.

As far as the $150 / 300 analogy... you missed my point.  If a lady charged me $150 for 60 minutes, then I wouldn't be as concerned with getting my money's worth becuase that is a reasonable fee.  I'm not talking about respect... the whole concept was introduced as to why men linger after the 60 minutes and I said I wanted to make sure that I got 60 minutes of intercourse for the 300.  If the cost per hour is less, then I will be more apt NOT to push the envelope and readily get the hell out of there when the hour was up.

Maybe if the ladies got beyond their anger about my post, they would understand the meaning about the economics of the whole thing.  That's what Sigmundfuller here hit on.  He seemed to understand what I was getting at.  I only wish I stated it like he, then this thread wouldn't be some darn long.

I'm through discussing it.

-- Modified on 12/7/2003 8:20:34 PM

You really said a lot there... very good reading, and quite introspective.

...most poll questions: they ask "a or b," and my answer is usally "a bit of both."

--b.

You said

"Aside from the obvious fact that many men can want or need sex almost continuously, the real issue  here is that a lot of guys aren't that "experiential."  This means they'd rather buy a plasma TV or a pool table than go to Hawaii or Santa Barbara for the weekend."

You were careful not to state that as an obligate consequence of having a Y-chromosome.

I think I've had a pretty broad range of experiences, and I'm fortunate enough to have acquired contemporary toys. But if I had to pick "STUFF" vs. "experience" I'd choose the latter in a heartbeat.

I suspect most of us have had what I call "in the zone" experiences, where time disappears, your senses open, and all cares disappear. I can list my own stellar highlights whether they occurred yesterday or 30 years ago. Only two of them involved sex.

example: Snowmass, Cold still day with powder belching from the sky. I'm floating IN the snow on the steep slopes with no boundaries between ground, air, and sky. The incredibly dry powder is falling SO rapidly that it provides sonic insulation from all that surrounds me. That was 30 years ago, but I can relive the elation today just by reminiscing.

example: I take my  12-year old son to hear the SF Symphony perform Mahler's gigantic 2nd "Resurrection" Symphony. I'm already in heaven an hour into it when my son leans against me and asks "how much longer does it last?" I shudder, thinking I'm going to be separated prematurely from this enormous but simlutaneously etherial music. Warily, I ask if he wants to leave, and he responds "NO - I don't want it to end!"

I'm a biker, not a pool player, but given the chance of a new Lightspeed Ultimate-all Campy tricked out bike vs. another moment like either of those, I think you can tell which way I'd go.

and, yes, I did use the word "sex" somewhere else in this post

I have both aspects to my personality as well.  I've spent about $20,000 on an audiophile quality stereo so that I can experience the music that I enjoy.  Similarly, I take great pride of ownership in my motorcycle, but it is the experience of riiding it, and ability to achieve a flow state and effortlessly tip it into a canyon turn at 80 mph that gets me excited.

Some people are more dominant in one direction, while others enjoy both.  But the point of my regretably long original post was that spending priorities and objectives for seeing a provider can vary greatly according to where you stand on this continuum.  I don't think we really disagree on this point at all, based on what you posted.

Thomas Jenkins said:

"As far as the $150 / 300 analogy... you missed my point.  If a lady charged me $150 for 60 minutes, then I wouldn't be as concerned with getting my money's worth becuase that is a reasonable fee.  I'm not talking about respect... "

Unfortunately, Thomas, earlier you DID say you didn't respect the ladies because they sold physical access to their bodies. I've met providers I don't respect. I don't see them any more. I've met others I DO respect. We see each other as my schedule and wallet permit. And they come from VERY different backgrounds. Part of why I'm not of the "60 minutes of pounding" school is that I'm not up to it any more - I envy you there - but another part is that I LEARN some things about life from these ladies; a good bit of it is about sex, but by no means all, and I have the utmost respect for them and their time.

Here's where it gets ugly. The simple truth is that what these ladies sell is fantasy, and that's NOT an entitlement or essential service. Unfortunately, the wealthy DO get access the rest of us don't, but it's no different from their ability to live in bigger houses, buy more expensive artwork, drive fancier cars, etc. I might resent the fact that Dom Perignon is not in my budget, but that doesn't entitle me to it.

The ladies charge what they can. That's the nature of our economic system. (Interestingly, a provider I know who spent some time in Amsterdam last summer told me after she returned home that the prices weren't any cheaper where it was legal in a very socialistic economy).

There are some other threads here where a few VERY well respected providers do some simple arithmetic to demonstrate that they're not exactly "cleaning up" in this business.

We ALL think it's expensive. However, the essence of your post contained the inference that you're justified in paying for service level x, but have every right to expect service level x + 1/2x, just BECAUSE it's expensive.

Had you confined your remarks to "I want clothes off, action on from the minute the door shuts behind us" you wouldn't have generated such a long (and interesting) discussion. You're CERTAINLY entitled to that if you and the lady agree beforehand.

There are many other aspects of this that no one seems to want to touch; e.g., should EVERYTHING be "on the clock" when a client treats a lady to a special experience? I've read forceful, and sometimes eloquent posts from both perspectives. The binary nature of THOSE positions is obvious - guys in one camp, ladies in the other, but I think both have valid arguments.