This is a math-oriented post, so apologies in advance to those who are gonna roll their eyes and check out.

Providers, before you start to wonder why business is down, I'd like to propose the numbers as to why this might be the case.

If a client is making $100k/year and ends up paying an effective 33% tax rate, that means his tax home is $67k/year.  Divide that by 12, and that's a monthly net income of just under $5600.  Assuming he pays a third of his after-tax net income on his housing/mortgage and has no debt, that leaves $3733/month for other things like utilities, food, and expenses.

Let's assume the client has no debt whatsoever and spends $300/week on food (groceries and restaurants).  Add in another $150 for his phone/cable/internet, another $100/month for his cell phone bill, and another $200/month for utilities.  And add in another $500/month for car payment/insurance.  That's a total fixed cost of $1250 per month, which leaves him with about just under $2500/month.

Let's assume the guy is really responsible and saves 10% of his check every month (so far I haven't even talked about things 401k deductions, homeowner's insurance, and things like expenses for the wife and kids or girlfriend).  Even if he saves $560/month, he still has a little under $2000/month to play with, which means that he could see a provider every week pretty easily.

But that's a pretty optimistic scenario.  This assumes the guy has no debt, no extra expenses for wife and kdis, and no credit card debt whatsoever.  Plug in a different income, and the available funds start to diminish pretty quickly.

How many guys on this board are paying only an effective 33% tax rate, have no debt, no kids, no other expenses, no wife/girlfriend, or anything else?

Just makes me wonder if providers have done this math to see if there is a client population deep enough to support their business plan.  Or if they have one altogether.

Something to talk about on a Sunday night.  I'm sure that I'm making this way too simplistic.

Thanks in advance for responses.

I charge x and if a guy can't afford that he passes, if another can, he books all things given.

My rates are not based on what a guy earns, they are based on who I want to attract, where I provide, and what I think, actually know I can get consistently.

-- Modified on 10/28/2012 2:02:18 PM

What I'm just saying is that I think a lot of providers maybe don't get the math and how a guy dropping $300 to $500 just isn't that easy these days.

Choose your lifestyle wisely. Don't marry unless you plan to run for office someday.

You should see my former ATF. Come hell or high water, there is nothing or no one that will prevent her from attaining her plan! She generally works/advertises seven days a week and is on call 19 hours a day. She'll do anything from high-class escort overnighters/weekends to guys off the street quickeees. She cranks out clients like we're on an assembly line: NEXT! Time is money. Write/send her more than a few emails or text messages and she wants to charge you $200! She doesn't take time to have a life, rarely sees her kids...and even then she's on call for an outcall or, if at home, to squeeze in one more quickee. She appears to do this until she collapses at the end of the month but only for two days max and then she appears to get either drunk or high, and perhaps to also catch up on paying bills, etc. .But she's determined to make her goal - if it doesn't kill her first...I always thought that she was trying to commit slow-motion suicide at a hundred miles an hour!... I never knew whether to pity her or to pray for her...

I used to charge a lot and did fine. I actually made more with higher rates.

I'll admit that I had more dates w/an agency at 400/hr  than as an indy w/higher rates and a higher time minimum. I'd see at least two and sometimes up to *8* guys per day (NOT every day, happened only once or twice).  When I went independent,  I had 3ish dates per week (10 was my max, EVER) but they were all longer. So I actually ended up making more. A lot more. But yes, you do limit the NUMBER of requests you will receive when you have high rates.

Some people found my rates expensive, so they didn't book me. The people who booked me never mentioned my rates one way or another.

If I'd been slow, I would have kept charging 400. I'm in this to make money, not to charge 10,000/hr and cry because my phone isn't ringing.

You either can afford it or not. BMW and Mercedes don't give a crap how much the guy in your example earns as long as the people that walk into the dealership have the means to walk out with a car. And if not, there is Toyota, Kia and Hyundai. That is why there are choices at different price points.

You have to remember this is a luxury and if you can't afford it, don't, or more to the point, find someone for less. I have enough to worry about other than whether the next guy who calls me can afford me. If he is calling, he has already made that choice.

This economy has hit everyone..not just hobbyists.

A.  I think when you try to show a point, such as money is tight, you don't give best case situations.
When you're young earning $100,000 you are using those credit cards and eating out.  The food bill was low, what if he has a mother to support and clothes.  Then he's paying back how much a month on the $100,000 in student loans.  If he's older, add in ex wife, child support, long term accumulated debt.

B. Saturnsky, Saturn  (good name is it your Ruler or Sun Ruler? In the sky, It's your Sun. I'm betting and if I'm right I sure can guess which of the two planets that it rules.)

The subject is general and you think "I" and so do lots of providers.  Guys think about that when you see one.  How many have read.  Escorts say  If they can't afford me, they can go to somebody else or save up.  Are they that busy?  No.  Not all that have that attitude,  they're just centered around the I and who helps that.  We do.  Conceit, self centered it's about me.  

When covered by a see through performance of listening to me or not even that.  I drops a 10 to 6 or 7 with me.   If not a 8, that's what you pay $80-150 for just sex   Don't get brain washed by these brainless reviews.  $100/hr is a lot of money.     Only the exceptional, are worth the 3-10 multiples of it.

The girls struggling the most in my area are ones in the 250-350 range, because those are the same guys who are not making a shit load of money to spend on ass. In NYC, that might be the girls in the 500-600 range, but it is still that average range of the market. What I mean is if most guys on review boards are spending, x, those are the guys and gals who are being hit by the economy the most. We discussed this one the phone earlier, and I don't disagree with you one bit. I am just saying, not ALL markets are being affected which we also agreed on.  Big money guys do not spend all day on review boards, that much I can tell you. Most of them don't even have memberships or write reviews unless we beg them lol.


Women charging over 500, are doing "ok" but again, none are seeing even 2 guys a day either. I noticed when my rates were lower, the market was entirely different than it is now. At 300 an hour, I would still need to see 4 clients a week to make my so called quota. At 600 for a 2 hour min. I need only see 2. Your area is over populated as far as providers go too, so you have a ton of women trying to charge that average market rate (which as you say is about 500), and the rest of the women charging twice that, are in an entirely different market. Most are not affected, because they can easily tour. Most also have another form of income as well. I agree, things are not what they used to be and I can see that just by agency business alone, but most indies I know charging over 400 here are not really having to beg for business. Charging less, does not always equal making more.

I also agree with saturn....if some can't afford to play here, don't play. It's not a soup kitchen. We realize what a guy has to work for, to spend an hour or two with us, but that does not change the fact that no one is forcing him to pay for ass. No one forces me to send my kid to private school either, so I can't go bitching to the higher ups about how much dick I have to suck to send her there lol. They don't much care. Their attitude would be, "Send her to public school then."



-- Modified on 10/28/2012 7:23:31 PM

There is some truth to Saturn Skys statement about BMW Mercedes etc.. except that she misses an obvious point. Most cars in this category are not purchased, but leased for a short time or financed. Dealers work with a monthly payment attitude.  The general advantage a woman has is that many men spend money on this hobby not using a sound financial theory, but a form of addiction.  If men were wise in spending money they would not hobby at all, or buy a Mercedes.  I think her point is that smart women study the market, competition, and rates to find the proper mix to pay the bills, put money away etc..

I hope you're able to make it to your Wall Street office tomorrow, I heard Mayor Mike has closed down all public transportation. Please call a car company right now for an early morning pick up tomorrow.  I don't know if I can take another one of these posts.  But don't worry, if I see another post like this from you anytime soon, I promise not to read it.

If I could not have afforded to pay cash for it, I would drive a Toyota or whatever I could afford to buy at that time. Bottom line, is if you can't afford to play here that is not our fault. Go play in the pond you can afford, and then bitch about how crappy the service was like always. I am not suggesting 'you' do that...just speaking in general. This is not a homeless shelter, and we are not curing cancer here.

No, not everyone.  If iP4P is not easy to maintain then don't do it!  Presenting math formulations (based on YOUR financial reality) isn't going to change anything.  The ladies that are good at what they do will hold steadfast to their rates, offerings, etc. We all live (or should) live within our budget.  Just as you can't live in a mansion when you can only afford a ranch house, or drive a BMW when you can only afford a Chevy you should not P4P if you can't swing it or are putting your family's finances in jeopardy.  Play less or do more one nighters with civies-- just don't expect everyone to empathize with YOUR reality because they have their own reality to contend with.

Shopping at Bergdorf Goodman is much different then shopping at JC Penny and I guess crazyshit  just does not see the difference. I suggest go  to BG and look at the quality of people who shop there compared to clientele who shops at JCP.

so skip all the math.  At the end of the day, either the client can afford or save until he can afford, the provider he has selected & she has approved him (screened).
While TER is a client driven review site, the BUSINESS of Providing is run by the provider who owns her own business & sets her business model, price point & availability according to HER plans, needs, hopes & dreams.   If the client can not afford or does not choose to pay said provider's stated rate, then he should shop elsewhere.  It's insulting to TELL a provider to change HER business plan so he can save a few bucks.  Her model works for her.  If her model deosn't work, the market will tell her & she'll have to make business decisions on how to change it.  IT's none of OUR business.  

I know the economy is off.  Lots of folks are less secure even if they still are working.  Lots of folks making concessions to keep working.  The Provider sets her prices & the potential client chooses accordly.  Nothing has changed.

I play when time & money permit...  if not, I save until I can.

Did you post this before?

I’m sure providers are aware of what a competitive price point is in their market, and adjust accordingly. However, as has been pointed out on this thread and others like it, seeing a provider is not even remotely close to a necessity.

The median income for a family of four—in US anyway—per latest BLS data from 2011—is at +/- $50,0000; with a swing between roughly $40,000 and $60,000 annually (depending on where you live, of course).

So, for anyone pulling down $100,000 a year to complain about not having enough money to blow on providers inevitably comes across as whiney and entitled.

I’m not saying that's you. But, until I hear about men “actually dropping dead” due to lack of pussy, I think it’s good to keep some perspective…..lol….

This isn't a necessity; it's a luxury.

I just wonder whether providers have done the math to realize that unless the client base is making six figures and are relatively free of other financial obligations, an extra $300 to $500 a month, bimonthly, or weekly is a rather tall order.

That's all.

You don't actually buy pussy either! You lease it!

As for my own financial situation, that's for me and myself to know, and no one else.

I'm merely just opening up discussion about perhaps why business is down, and why perhaps there are so many guys asking for discounts.

I agree, though...if you can't afford it, this is not a necessity.

This isn't subterfuge to get providers to lower rates.  It's not me bitching about the pricing, either.  I hobby when I can, and that's it.

I also happen to shop at Bergdorf, but I can appreciate those who shop at JCP.  Different strokes for different folks.  I don't have a car in NYC, but when I was on the other coast, I drove a new BMW.  My parents think it's a little excessive and drive a 10-year-old Toyota.  I'm not making any value judgments here...just garnering some discussion.

Whether there the demand side is deep enough to afford their pricing, that's all.

Breaking down an individual budget is both overthinking and underthinking the situation. Too much micro detail, not enough macro. Because hobbying is not a necessity, you can't do market analysis based solely on disposable income.

A gal should be indifferent, and probably unaware, if her client is married making $100,000 with kids in private school or single making $45,000. Actual size of the market is the big unknown because some guys do this daily, weekly, monthly, etc. Some guys do it once and never again. Therefore raw income/expense doesn't accurately map any pattern of behavior.

The $45,000 guy hobbying once every couple months might be LESS price sensitive than the $100,000 guy who prefers to see someone every week.

Price isn't the only factor. Ladies can react to conditions by increasing their marketing reach, traveling to other markets, becoming known on other sites (which I will not name).

In my locale, $100k/year is barely middle class.  That's not meant to come across as anything other than matter-of-fact.  In fact, one reason why I despise living where I do is because the cost of living is just so ridiculously high.  Anywhere else in the country, I could take what I make and be retired inside of 10 years.  Not so where I live.

But you are right...hearing those numbers (which I am well aware of) puts a lot of things in perspective.

Perhaps math is not one of your strong points. I said: 1 hour =300, 90 minutes = 500.  (Not 2 hours =500) How the fuck is that a price break? 150 for the first two half hours and 200 for the third half hour? The guy is getting punished for a longer date, not rewarded! And this is not something I made up . This is actually quite common prices on a lot of girls' websites. Wow. You just surprised the hell out of me.

for most men of average income to see us. If it turned into a train wreck it is because people took his post the wrong way, and then he took their replies the wrong way. All he did was break down the math of what most guys have to have make to see a provider for an hour. I don't see where he said we should care, lower our rates, or any of the like. He simply pointed out that the average working male in the U.S. makes x, and that guy has to work a full day to make what we can make in an hour....we already know it, but do we really think about it? Yes, at times, but again....I am not begging or forcing any man, of any income level to see me. I am here when they need me, and gone when they don't. saturn was not getting personal, but merely saying though most providers realize this, it really has nothing to do with us unless we are dependent only on the hobby for our income. Most of us are not.

that rates are based on geopgraphy. A provider in LA, LV, NYC, Chicago, Miami, etc. (i.e. large metropolitan area) will always be more expensive than a provider in Cleveland, St. Louis, Phoenix, Mobile, Denver, etc. (a mid-size city).

Sure, certain ladies want to attract the Mercedes crowd as opposed to the Chevy crowd. That is why they probably have multi-hour minimums as opposed to hourly rates.

As I see it, the bottom line for most guys is they want "value" for their hard earned cash. How each defines "value", is the real question.

A lot has been said here already and many good points were made, I haven't sifted through it all so I don't know if it's already been mentioned, you don't really take into account what OUR specific plan might be...for example, my prices are meant to actually cut business DOWN!  I have only so many hours to devote to this work...I cannot see everyone who has an interest...my price structure was built around limiting my availability to a certain level of clientelle...at the risk of sounding crass, those guys who can scrape together a couple hundred bucks now and again aren't generally the type of guy I care to spend my time with.  Personally, my price structure does exactly what it is designed to do which I learned through trial and error...and I'm sure every lady in the biz has built her business around her specific goals and if the goal is to have x amount of dudes to meet x amount of dollars, no consideration to quality of time spent, then she may take math into consideration.
In my playground, I get what I ask or I don't need your business...I'd rather have a slow week than a week that leaves my soul feeling icky.

After reading through this thread I realized the point you might have made, and I think it has already been answered. You started by calculating the fraction of income a man might have available to spend on his rich-man's-hobby. One factor is the number of men with enough income to hobby, and another is the amount each is willing to spend on it. The product of these numbers is the total income available to all the providers in that area.

If I would put aside $$$ or $$$$ and be willing to totally clam up about how difficult it was to do that, I get to be Viktor Komarovsky for an hour. When she says, "I'll treat you like the king that you are", it would be up to me to be strong like a king for that hour and not think about how faraway that next hour will be, and certainly not hint at it to her. Why? Because, if I understand this, a woman is turned on by the strength of a man in silently enduring something for her. The man who can't do this is like the bird who did the dance not quite well enough and loses the female bird's interest. (You DO watch "Nature", don't you?) Hence the line in the web site "Please do not discuss the gift in any way -- it is bad manners to do so." She means it is a turn-off and it could make her unable to endure the session. That's why the protests keep coming in from the Supply Side.

If you can't pay for it, wait until you can. In New York there is really not much of a need for a car, public transportation is everywhere. Where I live, and with my landscaping business I need a big gas guzzling truck. Fuel, insurance, and truck note are well over $1200 per mo, however I can't pull my utility trailer with the New Orleans Streetcar LOL.

Still your point is accurate P4P when you can afford to do it, and be greatful when you get a good girl. I would never ask for a cheaper rate from this teer of provider.

And, if you start to break down median income numbers, there are geographic areas of the US in which $30,000 is very solid family income. And, those people feel blessed to have it.

Which makes any level of quibbling over price, by men who routinely spend hundreds of dollars for a single  hr with a provider, all the more ridiculous.

Business isn't down.  Lower rates and quickies bring undesirable clients.  I don't work harder, I work smarter.  I weed out undesirable meetings with my rate adjusted to my geographical location.  The appointments keep coming so I have no problems or complaints.  The only direction my rates will be moving is up.  

And if you've priced hotel rooms lately, $100 an hour would not be breaking even.

Take care of yourselves during the storm.  

-- Modified on 10/28/2012 10:19:04 PM

-- Modified on 10/28/2012 10:20:12 PM

I don't think that's the case for every single provider out there.

I appreciate your points and the discussion.

according to your logic..i must be in the minority..i have no wife..no kids..pay my taxes..own my home..still work..have some disposable income..i see who i want when i want and never look at any expense ratios..i will never be a millionaire..i will never be a penny pincher either..once you find your own comfort zone with this hobby..you cant help but enjoy yourself..and i do..

Some crazy shit comes out of your keyboard!

Why the fuck would a hobbyists financial situation matter to a provider? Why would she care about any of your math? People can either afford her rates or they can't. She is either getting enough business or she isn't. If she isn't getting enough she can move to another location, advertise more or differently, lower her rates or find another job. All the crap that just came off your computer has no bearing on how providers set their rates .

You really do have way too much time on your hands!

I think whenever money and economics is brought up, there is always gonna be some controversy in discussing that.

I'm not at all saying that women should lower their prices or that men should bargain...or anything of the sort.

I'm just wondering if providers ever sit down and wonder how long a guy has to work to pay for an hour of their time.

I did the math using NY tax rates, and it came down to a guy making $100k/year at a 40% effective tax rate (remembe, we have to pay city income tax here in NYC, as well) basically working for free for a day to afford an hour of her time.  $100k/year is $60k/year after taxes.  Divided 60k/year by 2000 hours, and you are basically making $30/hour.  So you gotta work 10 hours to see her...which is actually more than a day's work.

At $200k/year before taxes, that's $120k/year after taxes or $60/hour.  So for one day's work you can afford to see a girl who charges $500/hour for one hour.

It's not really until you start making a million bucks a year that you really start to spend money on providers in the $500/hour asking price with any regularlity.  So if a guy makes $600k/year after taxes, that's $300/hour.  So he can work two hours and see a girl charging $600/hour.

The economics are pretty interesting when you start working out the math.  A woman asking $300/hour, which is on the low end for NYC providers, is basically asking a guy making $100k/year before taxes to work a day for free to see her for an hour.

Especially if I spend that money on any form of entertainment. I think any time you buy a product that exceeds the intended purpose of said product, that is an entertainment expense.

I will use the Lexus LS 460L vs the Toyota Yaris 3door example.

Both vehicles are designed to get you from point A to point B. The LS offers alot more entertainment on the way than the Yaris.

Crazyshit the choice is yours. Just like my response I should have hit delete, but I didn't because you are reading this, and killing your brain cells in the process.

That was your choice.

I think the average household has about $16k of credit card debt according to this site:

http://www.creditcards.com/credit-card-news/credit-card-industry-facts-personal-debt-statistics-1276.php

Just to service the debt on $16k of debt every month by paying the minimums is probably, I'm guessing, close to $500.

So, yes, you are in the minority.

Oh come on man! Provider math is what comes up with stuff like this: 1 hour= 300, 90 minutes =500

But every once in a while it's good to run the numbers, just to go over the math.

And I'm not a cheapskate, either.  I think you can search by my alias and see that I have a bunch of reviews since February of this year, and many of the providers are in that $500/hour range.

But I have no issues or judgments with those who think that's too much or that I'm spending too little.

I on occasion vacillate on price, but I have realized you pay for what you get!!!!! If you want a $200 HJ then that's all you get if you want a $700 mind blowing experience that will leave you drained and then wanting more because the experience was nothing liked you have had since your single days then diggggg deep into those pockets of yours and spend the BUCKS or just stay at home and jerkoff

If he can't then he simply sees someone charging 200 to 250 an hour.

What pisses me off the most is hobbyists trying with all their might to get ladies to drop their prices. Why else would you post this? You seem intelligent, so why is that you can't grasp that if 300 to 500 is out of a guys league, then buy lower..we all do in some things we buy. I don't go showing your math schematic to my hair dresser telling her that every women in my tax bracket finds it hard to see her...and she should think about that. How utterly ridiculous.

If a guy wants his dick sucked by a VS model, then expect to pay fir it. If he wants his dick sucked by a hot lady and no-one else is lining up to take it, then he  has to pay for it, hot ladies can cost a little more...see Mercedes and BMW vs Toyota. Or jerk off like most do.

Most of us don't give a damn about tall orders...we all have our tall orders. Seriously!!

I am leased by the hour...again, you can either lease me at that rate or lease someone else for less. I am shitty at math but find this concept remarkable simple.

She can tell you that she probably reads my posts in a whole different light and tone of voice after having spoken with me on the phone.

Same on my end.  I get what she's saying a lot more, after hearing the voice and the inflections.

Numbers mean Everything and Nothing, all at the same time

I not going to read your reviews, you don't need a stalker do you? I fall so easy. LOL

Meaning, can he afford the rate or not.  That much we can all agree on.

But when business is down and it's harder to get clientele because the supply side is increasing (more girls are entering the business), then some research might bear some fruit.

I think if you look at the math, sometimes it shows something that you didn't see before.

Like I said in another response, at a 40% effective tax rate like what you are likely to find in my neck of the woods, a guy making $100k/year ends up needing to work over a day to afford a $300/hour provider for a single hour.  A guy making $200k/year at the same effective tax rate needs to work a full day to afford a single hour with a $500/hour provider.

So, while I agree with you that it's a binary outcome of whether said client can afford the girl, it's sometimes a little enlightening to see how the numbers work out.

In the end for me, I choose to see a girl based on her rate and whether I think she's worth it, but after having spent 20+ years and well into the seven figures in after-tax money in this hobby...well, sometimes doing the math is rather enlightening.

She's giving you a small break...then ladies let's all do the math 1+1=2...hour 1 =$300 and thanks to this guy, hour 2 is now $600..see we can add. So no more price breaks on longer sessions..and you have this guy to thank.

I've said it many times throughout this thread that the point isn't to get providers to lower their rates.  Why you are being so defensive and taking it that way...I dunno.

No one is talking about YOU or anyone else in particular.  I'm simply saying that if you do the math, it's somewhat telling.  That's all.  In the end, all you care about is whether you can get the transaction or not.  Same as in the financial markets I trade in.  In the end, I care whether the hedge fund on the other side can get to my number, and whether there is a trade to do.

But understanding how the hedge fund does his math helps me to better understand how he looks at things, and gives me insight into how to better transact with him.  I don't get defensive if he can't get to my level.  But I do find that it is helpful to find out his thought process in ascertaining why he cannot...or, if he lifts my offer (pays my asking price with no haggling), perhaps I am leaving money on the table.  All of these things are worth discussing, I think.

Or maybe not in your case.

I just told you why I posted this.  Whether you believe it or not is up to you.

Me doth think the lady protest too much...

I think it's pretty clear I'm not looking to lowball anyone, and I'm not seeing $200/hour escorts.  Maybe $200/hour bodyrub girls, but certainly I'm not bargain-hunting.

Besides, all of this is just discussion.

And I thank you for your contribution.

OKay...I shall raise the rates for hobbyists (and keep my clients who appreciate the break)..you know the whiny cheap hagglers and now this genius who is picking on a freaking price break...yep rates for him just tripled...it's for the ick factor.

Sorry - the ladies don't really care about the hobbyist budget.
They care about their own budget - how much they pay for upkeep, clothes, and hotels and phone bills, a
and how much they charge you to get some Net Profit.

But one thing you'd be happy to know - the Ladies do consider 'competition',
especially if they are new to the game, no reviews, and are advertising on Backpage.
In my area, the numbers have been going down.  Last 2 years, 1 hour use to be $200-$250 on average.
Now, $200 is on the high side.  

My current market is about $100 for half hour, and 1 hour averages $170-$180,
Some ladies offer 15 minutes at $60, and 20 minutes is $80. These are not GFE - just straight wham bam.  My current regular, a 22 yr old, is charging me $150 per hour, which is a steal
consider she's completely GFE and I get to pop twice.  If you are budget oriented, stick to unpolished 'gems' u find and you have to try BP, where ladies offer lower price.   I'm getting so spoiled by 'value prices' now that I feel guilty - wishing the economy and unemployment would stay this way.

 

I don't know why you take this so personally.  I wasn't singling you or anyone else out.  Or even calling anyone's business plan into question.

This is directed at providers who might be wondering why business is down.  If it doesn't apply to you, then move on...you don't need to comment, and you certainly don't need to get upset over something that isn't relevant to you.

I would never see you, anyway, so why would you care what I say?  Just put me on ignore and be done with it.  

You trying to keep the prices down by being a fear monger, but I don't read your post that way.

Thanks for your contribution to the discussion.

At least you and I have talked and now understand each other.

I don't get the same feeling about this one.  

Read your reviews all cool with me. BTW pm me on the provider you had brunch with yesterday I'm curious. Read my new thread question on NYboard

Do you offer discounts on multiple hour dates?

if I'm reading reviews, I'm doing the poking.

I really thought you were smart. I am going to assume you misread the post somehow, and really got your panties in a wad, now calling me a whiny cheap haggler genius. If you truly think the scenario I mentioned is a price break, then Lord help us!

No it's for you.

I read your reviews, and I liked them.

How else am I going to read such a request, you weren't flirting?...Men

I'm going back to girls, they get me - uh I mean my money.

I'm just telling the facts straight from my experience.  I can even say that some ladies will consider bareback due to competition.  I'm thankful I'm in a southern state, where hobbying is not in the $300-$500 per hour range.  The cost of living is different in various areas of the country.  And for $100 half hour, I can get a really good looking young pussy to eat and fuk, and still save $3.5k-$4k per month for my retirement or to pay off my mortgage payment early.  

Good luck with that budget.

don't spend everything on pussy, cuz you'll be a lonely old man when you don't have enough in retirement.
I still plan to eat pussy at 65 and have my cock suck.  So save save save !!!!

Ladies,

Raise your prices.  Do it now!  Don't wait for the Christmas rush.  But don't think small.

If you're going to raise them RAISE them.  Never mind the Micro Economy London is right there are men on the higher end totally unaffected by the economy.

Next year, lesson on Macro Economics that is unless enough of you raise your prices high enough by Dec, then in 18 months,  you'll do better in class.  Good or bad economy not relevant.  Let's  see min $800-$1000/hr

You play around with your rates until you find one that allows you to make the money you need, with the number of clients you want and keep your ass there. Only women who depend on this as their sole source of income are affected by the so called market lol.

Thought we went through this about 100 times just last month. If I knew I could get 5k a date, you don't think I would still be charging what I do now right? I highly doubt any woman could say with a straight face that she would refuse 5k over the 300 an hour she is getting now...yea right. We get what we CAN get...end of story. I have been at every price point from 250-2k, and where I am at now is the place I need to be.

No offense honey, but a guy with 2 "average" scored reviews both on Oct. does not an expert make. You claim 100 an hour is a lot of money, but you see where it got you too lol.

-- Modified on 10/29/2012 4:43:44 AM

... with you on your points.

We may not agree that much at all, but this time I do agree with you.

I am not even sure *WHY* Crazyshit is even bringing this issue up at all.

You said it... keep it simple... If you can afford it, do it... if you can't afford, don't do it.

No need to complicate it.

Serpius

... Crazyshit is even bringing this up at all.

The only thing that I can think of is that he needs drama to get him all excited.

Look what this thread has turned into... a trainwreck. Who started this thread?

Serpius

a hundred time the point was not to try and get providers to lower rates but it was, plain and simple. I am not angry, pissed off, big difference. Why are you so angry at the 300 and 500 level, your entire post was some math poke to show us ladies how hard it is for the 100,000 dollar guy...really? More guys hobby at lower incomes and don't show us ladies how tough it is on them to get their cocks sucked.

So if a provider put up her expenses etc and gave you her side, saying that it would be easier if she could 1k an hour and to the hobbyists, please think about it?? Do you know actually silly you guys would think that was and rip her 5 new assholes for her trouble.

No you protest too much with that post in the first place. Who cares what a guy earns...except you.

You can either choose to take me at face value or not.  I just stated what my purpose for the discussion is.  If you are getting your rates, then who cares?  I'm just another chucklehead on this board with just one voice.  No one is gonna listen to me, and I have plenty of ridiculers, so why would you worry that my voice here could move the market in any way?  Again, you are making a mountain out of a molehill.

It wasn't my point, and you continue to think that I am being shady in my motivation.  It isn't.  It's just pretty telling when the numbers tell you that even taking out expenses, at a 40% effective rate, a guy making $100k/year needs to work 10 hours (more than a full day) to afford an hour of a girl's time at $300/hour.  Or that a $200k/year guy at the same effective tax rate needs to work a full day to afford an hour with a $500/hour provider.

I am not angry at any prices.  I have said numerous times ON RECORD that a woman is entitled to charge whatever she wants, we are entitled to pay whatever we want, and ONLY when the two intersect is there a transaction.

Sure, I'd love to see what the expenses a provider is up against.  It would be interesting to see.  Not saying that it would move the needle in terms of market rates, but it wouldn't hurt to know that.  It's just info and just discussion...that's it.

It's just math.  And math doesn't lie.  Maybe you haven't thought about how long a guy has to work to afford an hour of your time.  Maybe that makes you think the $100k/year guy should work for two days to afford an hour of your time...I dunno.  But it's an interesting look at things.  And based on your protesting...it is a sensitive topic for you, though honestly...if you are getting your rates with no problems, why should you give a shit about what I am saying?  Especially since I have so many detractors?

Again, you do protest a lot more.  Kinda like when I was in a compliance meeting one time in my career.  The compliance guy said..."Just a reminder...all your phone calls are on a recorded line, and we as compliance can pull the recordings at any time for any reason."  One nervous trader said, "But you need to let us know beforehand, right?"  The compliance officer said, "No, we can do it anytime randomly for compliance purposes."  The trader then said, "Well, why would you do that?"  Compliance responds, "Well, if you aren't doing anything shady or illegal, this shouldn't be an issue, should it?"

Guess which one you remind me of?

Thank goodness for migrant labor/immigrant love! Go ahead, just chase us hard-working clients/hobbyists on a tight budget away and you might never see us back...or it'll be a long time before you do, and more on OUR economic terms. Some of you native-born American golden pussies could really benefit from a hard lesson in competition, cheap labor and  Supply & Demand!

So go ahead, raise your prices and see what happens! If there are enough hobbyists out here that can afford to think with the small head, then more power to you. That's what free-market capitalism is all about. However, don't be surprised if your raising prices before/during the holidays causes many of us to defer visits until Jan, after we've done and paid for our Christmas shopping...and you've missed our ideal hobbying window with time off and reasons to disappear for Xmas "shopping."

In the meantime, I'll be wishing Felix Navidad to my Latina honeys; they'll appreciate the not outrageous, unreasonable donations to make a happy Christmas possible for their children back in Central and South America. I would caution you to NOT be the Grinch that steals YOUR own Christmas....We've not returned to boom times just yet.

So it begs the question...why are you so vocal about this?

I don't think math was the problem here,  seems more like a reading comprehension problem.

really all that happy with your selection of hot latinas, it would not matter to you what other providers do.  How kind of you to point out just how bad they need money to take back to their families, and that women like them get you off for peanuts...what a gentleman you are lol.

Here's a clue...I take care of those who take care of me, so although a guy might pay my premium rate the FIRST TIME, I am very much known to offer extra time and SD type discounted deals to regulars of mine. I am not suggesting any woman raise her rates just because and if you think it has anything to do with YOU or your income level, you would be right. Certain women know which guys they want to avoid, and most have self entitled attitudes like yours...usually the ones who bargain shop on a whole. If women are raising their rates, it is to avoid just that.

Your post comes off as selfish, needy, and rather pathetic which maybe you are, but keep in mind a hooker does not owe you shit. You've not proven to be a good client until AFTER she has met with you. No one is chasing you down and beating you with a stick here...YOU CAME TO THE HOBBY, we did not go looking for you, so spare me the whine and cheese act about how all providers just want to bleed you dry. That is far from the case, but if you see it that way, stick with what you have been fkin and shut up. No one is going to drop their rates to suit you unless they just really need that coin, and as you have so maliciously pointed out, many women are in desperate need of money so they might put up with your bs.  I suspect not every provider does need the same amount of money each month, which is why you see rates from 50 bucks to 20k.

The mere fact that you bring up only paying providers AFTER your Christmas shopping is done for your own family, is exactly my point about not owing you or guys like you a fkin thing...where are you when providers need you? Nowhere! If we discounted you or lowered our rates, you don't give a shit that we might have to bang twice or three times as many guys that week do you? Oh, hell no...I mean we are hookers...it's what we do.

You want a discount, go to a soup kitchen but don't sit here with your self entitled bs and expect anyone...especially ME to feel sorry for you. I don't. It's pathetic how blind you really are. You see a high price tag and assume "GPS" but that fact is, that higher tag, saves that woman from working 7 days a week and having to fk 2-3 guys a day. You don't give a shit about that though, because you're just here to get your rocks off. News Flash...no one owes YOU a damn thing honey.

You won't die without it, and you could give a fk less about us or our families during our time of need..I have many clients who are just the opposite, and they are the ones who DO get the perks you whine about.

Some of you bitch and moan all day about the price of p*ssy, but you forget about your right hand that is totally free....try using it. We are all full up on crazy here. Go whine to someone who has seen you a number of times and knows what a great (LOL) guy you are. She might be more prone to offering you discounts because you have already invested money in her affairs. That I can see as being a legit reason for maybe a price break, but to expect it from every provider including those you've never met, is beyond retarded.

If guys in your income bracket are the ones struggling, why would we want to be in that market? Seems self explanatory enough to me, that a provider is not going to starve while she waits on guys like you. She will put herself either in a higher or lower market, and do what she needs to do to make it. Again, YOU don't really give a shit about that because you would love it if all of us were at 150 and you got to bang us into the ER for your pocket change. So yea, damn right some of us are smart enough to avoid just that.




-- Modified on 10/29/2012 2:08:00 PM

In the end, it comes down to the simple truth of how markets work.

Women offer their services at a price.  Men want to pay a price.  No matter what goes on behind that, a transaction only occurs when the two intersect.

And that's exactly what occurs.  I don't see a need to rip on a girl for what she is asking, any more than I feel a need to rip on a guy for what he wants to pay.  It's the market, and it will work itself out.

Having said that, I think the discussion of this and the numbers actually are very telling about how several of us think about this.

Thanks for your response, London.

of how many hobbyists do feel and treat providers every day. Look around this thread a bit, and you will see just the type of self entitled, whiney ass hobbyists she is speaking about. The rates you have paid are easy to see by your reviews alone, so it's not like you are out there trying to drive down the price of ass. You're just making a point about what a guy might have to go through to be able to afford time with a provider. We understand that, but you also have to consider her POV as well...it's not our problem. We are not here to drive the price of p*ssy up, but we also will not be bullied and manipulated by the bottom feeders to cater to them.

We are not forcing a guy to hobby, much less see any girl in particular. His budget determines who he can see and how often...our budget determines how much we have to charge to still remain low volume and not end up with a vagina that has us thinking "Arby's" bwahahaha.

Sometimes people hear what they want to hear, and in this thread, that was her.

You sound like a petulant 6 yr old telling your mommy you're going to run away from home. And, boy, is SHE GONNA BE SORRY when you're gone!

Maybe one of your Latina Honeys will pack you a bag lunch so you don't get too hungry while you're down the block pouting?

hmm....what was it was I just saying about whiny and entitled?....Haha.....

I understand that times have changed and the economy is not what it used to be years ago. I suppose it varies from state to state. I lived for years in and near Washington DC area and visited on a regular basis areas of West Virginia and PA. I now reside in South Jersey, just outside of Philadelphia PA and I will travel to parts of Jersey and PA to offer my services.

Business has been pretty good, I am not complaining. I keep busy. I am not a high volume provider so I am not worried about having a few appointments a day. If I travel somewhere outside of my regular realm then I will see at least 2-3. Mind you I do many appointments that book for over an hour. I put the time and effort into advertising and responding to emails, so for me it pays off.

 My rates have always been the same and I have had no need to lower or raise my rates. I get that many hobbyists cant afford to play or pay rates of $300 or more, but to put it nicely, it is not my problem. I am responsible for myself, and myself only. I have quite a few expenses that come along with being a provider and I want to make money. Yes I enjoy my clients, and I really do enjoy what I do but I do what I have to do.

 As long as I have been a provider it has gone up and down. Certain times of the year are better then others. I feel if I am devoting 2-3 hours a day to advertise, keep my posts up, my schedule up to date, and replying to emails that yes business should be good. And it usually is.

and don't deal with hagglers. I am lucky or I just market to the guys I want to see that don't haggle.

I honestly don't care what a guy has to do to see me, just like my hairdresser doesn't care what I have to do to see her.

Sure I get riled up and thank you for reminding me where I actually am.   If guys want to haggle, then let the ladies they are haggling with deal with it.

I should have stopped after the second post as all I am doing is repeating myself. Glad you care what others have to do to get laid.

No hard feelings, it's too nice a day to be crabby, so thanks again for making me realize this board is for entertainment purposes and not to get to invested in online banter. You have an awesome day!

The subject matter does get under my skin but it's only a fk board and not worth the angst. I get what I ask and should really let those that don't figure it out.

I on the other hand, DO have a TON of reviews to confirm guys are spending money, and on a consistent basis. Now, I am not trying to suggest I am seeing a shitload of people or they are banging down my door, but that's my point. The higher your rate, the less clients you are going to get contacting you....it all evens out. Great post hotplants!

No I have never thought about it. I appreciate anyone that comes to see me. Have you ever sat down to think about what it takes and what it costs for providers to be providers?
If someone is seeing me I just assume they can afford it. I am not asking any man to do anything much less work a day for free LOL. I am sorry this is really an odd post. It is the clients choice to decide who he wants to see or if he even wants an appointment. I do not own him.

The cost of a static incall is one thing, or the cost of a hotel.  The cost of a website, getting ready, having all the products for the session...that all adds up.

That's why I think it's helpful to look at the economics.

No one is saying that a guy should pay or a girl should charge more.  It's just looking at the numbers behind the numbers, and I think it's healthy do that.

Certainly this thread has garnered lots of healthy discussion, no?

Well...another aspect is that with the economy down, there are a LOT MORE girls out there, and LOTS of pretty ones too.  This is for real.  Those who charge $250 PLUS better be God's GIFT to Man... LOL  If I were a woman in this business, I would understand that, and give guys the very, very best service...don't be a biatch, and make them WANT to come back again.  There are a lot of women out there, and younger women don't have hang-ups at all about getting in and out of this business.  They just don't.  And that's good for us guys.  It's a 'buyers market'... so to speak.  

has to be an 18 year old super model eh? You must be from fkin Texas, because most EVERY woman on TER who charges over that amount is not 18 or flawless. Me thinks the reviews speak for themselves about who is working and who is not. For 250, I would never offer fs much less msog. You're out of your damn mind. I would have to fk 6 guys a week at that rate...no thanks. I am not 18, do not have a flawless body, and I am a bitch on top of it....I still charge more than you say I can get and have since 2009. Many other women I know including those over 40 and BBWs do as well.  See, only guys looking for a quick bang with a bubble head think like you do. You don't require a brain...just a pulse.



-- Modified on 10/29/2012 4:43:57 PM

Remember that women don't NEED to do this.  They could always get an office or waitressing job, but this is easier money.  That doesn't mean they need to sell their pussy to the highest bidder, to be absolutely crass.

Yes, there is competition, and that drives rates down, but many women are still doing well.

My intent was never to be a fearmonger and to get women to lower their rates.  I am quite happy paying what I pay, and I get the occasional discount.  I never begrudge a woman for asking whatever she feels she is worth.  Why get worked up?  I don't have a gun to my head.  I can simply say, "Pass."  No need to be dickish about it, which many of this board end up being...something I just cannot understand.

Serpius just needs to take the other side of whatever I say, because...I don't know why.  You would think that I fucked his wife or blowup doll or something the way he reacts.

But your points are dead-on.  I never said a woman should lower her rates.

I'm just pointing out the math, and unfortunately some of my points were not articulated well.

This was a discussion. That's what discussion boards are for. Yep some of the comments were way out in left field but this thread is no trainwreck. I have seen some trainwrecks on this board, and crazyshit has been in some of them and you serpie, have definitely been in some of them. This thread might be a fender bender between two smart cars, but does not qualify as trainwreck.

Wow, I must have touched some raw nerves! I never expected so many paragraphs and so many ad hominem attacks against me! Nothing personal against you, London. In fact, I've enjoyed our exchange of comments and ideas on other topics/threads.
I merely meant to emphasize the role of increased competition and supply and demand and their eventual effect on prices. The idea that a provider must be great because she prices herself in the high range lasts only as long as clients believe that. (Kind of like price bubbles with other commodities - eventually, there's a correction. ) You see this with high-end cars, too. While there will always be those who will buy them for prestige sake, many others will question the utility of doing so when they might buy another brand of auto that has the same or more features but which costs thousands less. So too with providers. In difficult times, the client/hobbyist will likely shop around for the best bargain for his $$$, optimizing appearance/performance with price.  Other commentators here have mentioned the increase in women turning to providing thereby adding more competition, or even some who lower their boundaries and take more risks by offering more unprotected services to try to stay ahead of the completion. I brought up something similar: the infusion of cheaper immigrant laborers/providers which must be applying downward pressure on prices in some markets. Cheap labor that undercuts profits has, historically, always been detested and resisted by the status quo. I sense a bit of this, perhaps, in your reaction and response. Bottom line, I wasn't chastising you or other providers for not lowing your prices; I merely meant to make you all more cognizant of these other market pressures which may force you to maintain your current prices, or perhaps even lower them a bit at some point if these supply and demand trends continue.
Byvrhecway, just to clue you in: sometimes I relish playing the devil's advocate and being contrary just to stir up discussion. LOL how many paragraphs I got from you, and how many comments followed our exchange! It's great for ratings; look at how many reads we got!

When you see every girl dropping their rates to 19.99 like a damn infomercial, you might have a point. Why do you think providers who are priced higher, start to travel to other markets where there is LESS competition? Duh...we know how to make money in OUR business..thanks. You say a woman who charges a rate YOU can't afford has GPS...other guys would laugh at you for that. Any woman above a price point a guy can't pay is always one with GPS...nah, just call the bitch SMART enough to avoid lowballers.

When I left this business in 2005 for 2 years, the economy was still doing really good for me in this business...

I have thought about the should a, would a, could a, so many times on how I should have saved more...

I came back in 2007, a bbw instead of curvy, and yes the rate had to be lowered because of that and my location in sacramento.

I still did not feel the economy crunch though as I was gone for 2 years, and some time in 2008 weas when I started seeing it worse and worse...


Back in 2003-2005 the bulk of my clientele was travelers to the Bay Area and they all booked me for 2.5 hr dates or longer at $600 each and I would only do like one per day on average...


when I came back, I saw that the out of town business men that I use to cater my marketing too were no longer there like before, so I had to adjust my rates, and my marketing to the local hobbyists..

then as the economy continued to get worse, more and more women entered this work, and craigslist adult section closed, etc etc

the whole scene changed..

I had two choices

sit there and say
" i am worth this much, if you dont agree look elsewhere, and then eventually be broke, homeless, and starve" OR I could change my strategy and swallow my pride, adjust my rates a bit, my services and how I targeted clients and thanked regulars so I was still able to do this in the way I am accustomed to.

some women cant swallow their pride..

but honey

pride does not pay your bills

and I had no interest in being a PROUD homeless woman

You need to make customer service your MAIN goal, talk to them before, find out what makes their toes curl, and do it! Send them thank you emails, and flirt here and there...


but do not come off FAKE!

be sincere!!!!

Give them extra time, remember special things about them, like a birthday, things they like or tidbits they shared and bring it up again! Find out about special snacks or drinks they like, and have them... Read their reviews, find out what they said about women that rocked their world and do it too but try to do it BETTER!

have personal touches waiting for them, treat them like you actually missed them, and every day with out their touch has been agony. Give them the fantasy experience whatever it may be for them.

do not just be another same old provider, be the one that they can not get out of their head...

and charge $250 but 90 percent book my 90 min or 2.5 hr at 350 and 550

so he is skewed...

I am albeit different than a vanilla provider, but still men seek me out because I am NOT some 18 year old empty headed body who lays there....

lower yourself if you love what you do. You found a rate that works for you and one that you can get on a consistent basis...that is all any provider sets out to do. Some women charge 200 and some charge 2k. Neither of them is any better than the next, but it is all about circumstance. If I did not have another income, I would not starve on providing alone but it would not allow me to live the way I want to either. I would have to get a real job and work 4 times as long.

Are you 100% certain of your opinion now?

Have you seen how LONG this thread is?

Have you seen how many subtopics unrelated to the original topic?

I call it as I see it... it's a train wreck. You call it discussion. If you say so.

Serpius

Exactly. It's a trainwreck because...

... All that other stuff people state was ignored because very few people don't get past the insults or insinuations that are being made by the person who is posting.

Once people see the insults or insinuations (usually done in the beginning of the post) people will stop reading the rest of the post.

Everything else falls apart and no one bothers reading the other stuff in the post that did *try* to explain themselves.

Once people get into the 'rage' state, then can't help themselves.

That's why it's called 'blind rage'.

Serpius