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Depression...
sedonasandiego See my TER Reviews 5532 reads
posted

I’m not a doctor or a psychologist, but all anyone has to do is turn on the TV or the radio to wonder if maybe depression isn’t at epidemic proportions in this country, and just about everyone I know suffers in some way from frequent depression. It’s so common that people are actually more open to talking about it, saying ‘you know those questions they ask on the commercial – that’s me!’.  Does it make you wonder what’s going on??!

Why are we so depressed? (I’m talking generally here, not relating to the hobby.)
Well, we all could easily contribute volumes on thoughts, ideas, theories, as well as our own stories, but here’s a few of mine to leave you with before I leave town.

An article I read years ago was about relating to others (and, we relate to ourselves, don’t we?), and mentioned that in order to ‘connect’ with someone, you should be compatible in these five areas: Emotionally, intellectually, spiritually, socially, and physically. (I’m sure there are more..)
There was also a wonderful book review I had read (wish I could remember what the title was!) but it was talking about ‘man’ as we’ve become today is an ‘unnatural man’, and we’ve become something that is so far removed from where we need to be in order to be ‘healthy’. It also mentioned several areas, including the same five areas, and talked about nurturing those areas, or evaluating where you were at, particularly while you  feel depressed. How can you change and improve in those areas to better your mental well being? Socially and intellectually,  try to surround yourself with people who are positive thinking people, people who move forward, don’t get caught up in BS, etc. and get ‘rid’ of the people in your life who continually bring you down, and are negative or toxic in your life, which I've done, to include quitting my job, even! (not saying to do that, of course). Physically, try to eat right, exercise, and limit some of the bad substances such as caffeine, and alcohol, which worsens the problem (though you may not think so when you’re drinking). I’m not currently a vegetarian, but have been in the past, and I really DO believe that the hormones and junk in our foods have a LOT to do with the epidemic proportions of both depression and thyroid problems (BTW: top two prescriptions written today are antidepressants and thyroid meds). Limiting our intake of meat and dairy WILL make a difference – or at least begin eating meat from the health food store, that’s hormone and additive free is a good place to start making change. These are suggestions, only. Most vegans and vegetarians do not have depression as much, as frequently, or they feel better equipped to deal with it. Spiritually, is where I think a lot of people shy away from because they don’t want to get caught up in the whole ‘religion’ thing and that tends to bring on more guilt, which affects the Emotional well being. But, it’s important to be spiritual as part of your all over health. It’s up to you what that means.  If that means taking off work and actually having a weekend (!) – to go camping and be in the midst of Creation, and revel in its wonders and listen to nature – then make a plan and do it. I mentioned before loving that Corona commercial – no noise except the sound of the breeze, the birds and watching the sailboat glide by. De-stress…
Emotionally – that one’s a tougher one as only you know the pangs and pains in your heart and how to address them, but a good cry cleanses the soul and talking to someone who cares and won’t judge is important. If you need someone like that, find one. Most companies have, as a benefit, a Solution Center type thing that you can anonymously call into. If your company has such a benefit, take advantage of it. It’s paid for, and I’ve heard good things about them.
In the book I mentioned, she talks about how we ignore all these things within ourselves because we are so busy at work, our days (including traffic) are so long, that who has time to think and self-explore? You’re just trying to get through the day, and then suddenly, like the frog in the frying pan analogy, we’re hit dead in the face with depression and wonder what in the heck is wrong, and where did that come from?? It was there all along..
In the book she talks about all the things we don’t do anymore because we don’t have time – even chores, which can offer benefits. She mentioned that those who eat out for dinner more than not, and who have house keepers are some in the worst categories for depression – that cleaning house and cooking are real ‘slow down’ times and give time needed for reflection. I have a dishwasher but choose to wash by hand, so that I can gaze out the window, feel the breeze coming through and let my mind wander. Same with cleaning house – it’s not only good exercise, but you can use that time to pray, think of family and friends, and introspect. Making subtle changes such as making a nice quiet, family time out of meal preparation, or yard and house work can be a good thing. I used to enjoy cooking, and don’t cook much anymore, but I love to put on music, have a glass of wine, and chop away in the kitchen.

Our emotional well being can be improved greatly when we see what a difference, however small we can make in someone elses’ life. If you find that your depression is more frequent, and harder to shake, consider signing up as a volunteer. There’s zillions of them out there. Even if you’re working full time. I mentioned to a friend today to look around you and notice how miserable people are, and how one bad attitude begets another bad attitude. It’s like the cycle of abuse. But, the fun part of it is, seeing what you can do to break the cycle. And it works. Just go to the bank, grocery store, or anywhere else to run an errand, and find one small way to make a difference in someone else’s day, and see if that doesn’t do something for your depression. Again, we’ve gotten so far removed from the human beings we were meant to be, and today we are too disconnected from each other. I long to live my ‘retirement’ years in some small town where I know my neighbors name and will know if one is sick, and can bring them some homemade chicken soup. But you can do the same throughout the course of your day, if you look for it.
We need to nurture our own souls better.
Of course, talking about your depression with your doctor is always advised, and if you’ve improved in the five areas, and are still having depression, it may be a good idea to be on meds.

And my last thought is to tell you something that has helped me over the years, and that’s the Serenity Prayer, which is:

God, grant me the serenity
To accept the things I cannot change;
The courage to change the things I can;
And the wisdom to know the difference.

Making three columns – one for the things you can’t change (or don’t think you can); the second for the things you can change; and the third for your plans for making those changes. Oddly enough, you’ll end up moving items from column one into column two more than you thought. Take one at a time. Often we just feel overwhelmed, and that can be a root for our depression. Seeing things change and feeling in control of that can be empowering.

Have a lovely week, all.

Much love,
Sedona

Turkana3151 reads

I agree with what you say, Sedona.  It's very wise and observant.  

My perception, however, is that over the last year or so -- perhaps since 9/11 -- this country has fallen into a general malaise.  It is partially economic, it is partially the war, it is politics, it is culture.  People are not, in general, as happy as they were in the 90s: there is an overall sense, I believe, of the shortness of life, of limitations, of constraints.  There is fear in the air, and people are insular and small-minded.  I see far more selfishness and grabbing than I did five years ago.  And, it follows...this is depressing....

So there's my two cents...

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sedonasandiego3039 reads

And there are numerous thoughts to contribute. Your words are precise.
An overall hopelessness, an anxiety for our future, etc. particularly when you realize that in the next few years the majority of the population will be at 'retirement' age and yet we are not prepared to be there, which compounds the fears...
And that is how using the 5 areas, and also outlining what you CAN change can really help as well as gain in your own feelings of empowerment.
I'm also very thankful to have this forum to express some of these things.

Always a pleasure being with you.

xo,
Sedona

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megapig4710 reads

Sedona .... I agree with everything that's been said ... and with the responses too.   But there is another viewpoint to take into account too:

We have become a nation of spoiled brats ... and now they even MARKET diseases to us.   Depression being one of them.  I have days, weeks and months that I maybe don't feel AS happy to be alive as I usually do.   Nor AS active as I could be ... and there are people who's job it is, it appears, to tell me that I have anxiety, depression and am in need of Zoloft (the little egg-like thing in TV commercials.

My father lived thru the "Great Depression" and I heard all the stories of walking to school, barefoot in snow, uphill  (both directions) and then working 40 hours every weekend to help his family eat.   Exaggertated a bit ... but true.   As a child ... I remember one time he had to check himself out of a hospital on a Sunday night carrying an extereme case of pnuemonia ... in order to be at work on Monday .. because in those days ... you got fired for missing two work days ... and the family needed the money.

WE .. on the other hand ... have become a generation that believes that it's OK to quit your job when it becomes "a hassle" and that it's perfectly OK to ask our doctor to put us on disability because we feel "burned out."   Every time I imagine telling my father that I feel "stressed out" I imagine him either laughing at me or slapping me senseless.

We run to the doctor when our finger hurts from clicking a mouse AND bill our insurance for it (then wonder why health care costs are so high).  Our baby doesn't come out just perfectly, we sue the doctor and ask for millions of dollars in damages ... then wonder why OB/GYNS are leaving the business faster than crap through a Christmas goose.   Why ... just this weekend I went to an expensive restaurant ... the food was uninspired and the service was ordinary ... and 12 lawyers are vying to help me sue them!

Suzanne Sommer's Thigh Master ad had a warning to consult my doctor before starting her exercise program!   I sort of think my doctor has more important things to do than have me show up at his door and say "Doc, I'm thinking of putting my legs together - what are your thoughts on that?"

Hobbyists post about a provider than was less than forthcoming in her services.   Providers moan that a client didn't show and cost her money ......

SUCK IT UP!   Act like a grownup.  Life is not SUPPOSED to be easy .. nor "fair" ... and definately not always happy.

Feel depressed? Go to your local County hospital and spend an hour talking to old patients who don't have families ... or whose families are too busy suing a car dealer because their Hummer  (the artificial, plastic Hummer H2 no less) didn't really make their lives full like the ad said.

Drive down to Long Beach and spend an afternoon reading to kids who's parents aren't around because of their crack habits.

Now ... I don't say this in anger .. not really ... a I CERTAINLY don't mean this to anyone specifically .... just as a general thought to anyone and everyone .....

Take your 'general malaise and STUFF IT UP YOUR ASS'

That's what Pig thinks.   And that's what you should think, too.

:)  

-- Modified on 7/30/2003 3:37:35 PM

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veritasse3678 reads

Pig's philosophy of self-reliance is applicable within the context of situational depression, which is intellectual.

There is another form, usually called clinical depression, which is essentailly an organic force majeure and not subject to decision-making.

Many people think the best book on depression is "The Noonday Demon" by Andrew Soloman, available in paperback since last year.

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tozer4426 reads

Delighted that Veritasse mentioned "The Noonday Demon," as I was going to as well. I suffer from dystemia, a mild form of chronic depression, for which I take medication. This does not embarrass me or shame me -- it actually helps a great deal with no side effects that I can discern except that it makes me feel a great deal better, so I recommend medical attention, even if the ultimate prognosis does not include medication. Also, I live near Ground Zero and saw much of the events of 9/11 unfold before my eyes, so feel a little justified in my depression! Anyway, another very interesting and good book is William Styron's "Darkness Visible." Styron, who wrote "Sophie's Choice" fought a massive battle against depression at the age of 60, so there's hope for us all! Collective chins up -- and the Serenity Prayer's a good place to start.

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MrSelfDestruct3623 reads

Life isn't nessarily the black or white scenario that your "old school" attitude paints ("Life isn't fair...grow up and deal with it!"). Whereas there are some good points about what you said (i.e., we as a society expect too much from life these days), a lot of your points were made using oversimplification and not mentioning the root causes.  

People may expect more from life now, but after growing up with previous generations saying "I work hard to make a better life for my children", why wouldn't they?  With all the additional "perks" of modern life, it is easy to take for granted that life would AUTOMATICALLY be better, easier, and more fulfilling.  Should people be blamed for taking that position, which in addition is endlessly marketed to us?

The human mind perceives life relatively.  People can be depressed nowadays in spite of having so much more and having more security than previous generations because there is so much more that they can have.  Previous generations were lazy compared to their forefathers as well.

It could be said that while we have so many more things that make our lives easier, the presence of all of these things is precisely what makes our lives harder.  The "simple" lives of yesterday were not complicated by many of the choices/uncertainties/dangers/fears/wants of modern society, and societies and families were not as isolated and lonely as they are today.

There are truths to your pont of view, and there are truths to Sedona's.  However, Sedona was putting her issue in the context of the past few years, a scenario that you did not address.  In addition, the two differing viewpoints could be classified psychologically (at the risk of generalizing) as a classic male/female conflict, your position being  "male" (be strong) and hers being "female" (be sensitive).  Although you both weren't restriced to these positions (among other things, your suggestion about reading to inner- city underpriveleged kids was sensitive, and her suggestion about making the right decisions in your life was strong), it is indicative of the polarization that envelops this country in particular at this point in time.

Many of these things, from Sedona's observations to yours, are simply the by-product of the inevtable direction of the great American social experiment.  Where we go from here will be, as a certain Vulcan used to say, "fascinating".  







-- Modified on 7/30/2003 6:10:10 PM

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megapig2838 reads

If you recall, I started the post by agreeing with Sedona and every point she made and merely made the point that there are other points of view - that not all our problems are not based in any clinical causation.

As far as it being 'old school'  I take that as a compliment and wear it as a badge of honor ... as I do the name "Pig"

-- Modified on 7/30/2003 7:50:45 PM

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Politically Incorrect3709 reads


who knows next to nothing about clinical depression. I'm sorry if that sounds blunt. It's no more a response to you than it is to everyone else who thinks the same way.

To tell a suicidally depressed intividual to "act like a GROWNUP" is the height of, well political incorrectness for one, but also sadly lacking in compassion for one's fellow man, woman or CHILD.

And yes I'm aware of the irony of this post (coming from me).

P.I.

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megapig3161 reads

Hmmmm ..... perhaps living with someone WITH clinical depression for almost 20 years gives me the right to speak out?  Perhaps holding their hand and sometimes weeping head from Doctor to Doctor and therapy to therapy for many many years before we finally found a working solution gives me credentials?

After that ... a semi-career in getting people to AA has given me an ability to know that there are peoeple in need of help and spoiled brats - and maybe the knowledge to know that there's far MORE of the latter than the former?   Further .. I think the brats are a slap in the face to people who HAVE sucked it up, tried their best . and still can't get balanced.

Yes . the reason I spoke out is because I DO KNOW the difference between clinical depression and what it does to debilitate a person and their families and loved ones and a spoiled brat that keeps looking to society to make life fair.

You might also note that I dodn't blame any one PERSON or group of people (Green Party Memmbers come to mind) as the individuals who are the that need to grow up, suck it up and deal with it.

What I would say to a depressed suicidal person is that they need specialized help... and then I'd make time in my life (and I HAVE) .. to help them get that help.

The rest of the whiners need a kick in the ass... and I'd help THEM out, too.

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mephistopholis3489 reads

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sedonasandiego4754 reads

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Colonel Angus4090 reads

I agree that we are being diagnosed with a lot of diseases that may not have been recognized before, or diseases that may not actually exist at all.  However, I think most drug addicts would be better off being diagnosed with depression and given happy pills (you know anti-depressants) than to be taking very harmful street drugs to make themselves feel happy.  ALso, most people in the world are miserable and if a pill will make them feel happier and not make them crazy like illegal drugs then I am all for it.

I think a lot of drug addiction could be helped by prescription anti-depressants.  Some new theories are that drug addicts are depressed or mentaly ill and they use the street drugs to self medicate,  or the drug addict is imbalanced permanently from illegal drugs and needs the prescription to rebalance to normal.



-- Modified on 7/30/2003 4:03:07 PM

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singleton3529 reads



addiction is (and has been) treated with anti-depression medication. a provider told me the story of a boyfriend who went to a doctor for heroin addiction and was given MAOI inhibitors! this must've been 15 years old cuz nowadays it's all SSRIs like Zoloft, Paxil, Prozac and Wellbutrin.

addiction IS primarily a bio/neuro-chemical phenomenon. most addicts DO in fact suffer from reduced levels of key neurotransmitters like dopamine and serotonin. it's not too simplified to say that addicts are "sick" people who are self-administering their own treatment (unwisely). when addicts brains are imaged with functional-MRI they exhibit the same patterns of brain dysfunction as people who suffer from bipolar (manic-depression) and unipolar (depression) and related mental/physical illness.


and those are the scientific facts ... the rest is all politics and rhetoric!



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trooper3081 reads

I have suffered from depression on and off thru my 50 years.
The end of my depression is due to the fact that I quit feeling
so stressed out about all of the things that I had to rush out
and do. I decided to just live one day at a time. and to change
my life one thing at a time. And now I am a much happier and
balanced, and well adjusted person because I was sick and tired
of being sick and tired. I sit out in the evening and look to
the hevens and gaze at the stars above. I listen to Gods
gift of creation talk to me as the wind blows thru my hair.
And above all I smile to myself and give thanks to myself for
giving myself permission to slow down and live and love and
care for myself and others!

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VonRyan3083 reads

This guy from Ohio wakes up one morning and hears a little voice say, "Quit your job, sell your house, take all your money and go to Las Vegas!"
Guy shakes it off and goes to work. All day long though, every time things are quiet, the guy hears a little voice say, "Quit your job, sell your house, take all your money and go to Las Vegas!".

This goes on for 3 days. Finally, the guy quits his job, sells his house, cashes in his stocks and 401K and flies out to Las Vegas.

He lands in Las Vegas and says, "Now what?" The little voice says, "Take a cab to the Mirage." So the guy goes to the Mirage.

"Now what?", he asks. "Put all your money on Red at the Roulette table.", the little voice says.

Guy puts all his $'s on Red, the dealer spins and it comes up black.

"Fuck..." says the little voice.

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mutantLA3103 reads

that is hilarious

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InterestingWoman3834 reads

Their view is that the pharmaceutical companies encourage Americans to be depressed in order to sell more medication. Adbusters has had several columns slamming the companies for this very reason. Although I've suffered bouts of depression, I refuse to take any anti-depressant. For me, a well balanced vegan diet and lots of exercise are the best cures for depression. I don't exercise to look well. I exercise to feel well. IMHO, Americans are much too dependent on chemical cures for ailments.

P.S. If you haven't heard of Adbusters and you're somewhat liberal in you're thinking, check it out. You can find it at Whole Foods, Wild Oats or at www.adbusters.org.

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singleton3871 reads


the pharmaceutical companies (some of whom in my book may just be catching up with the tobacco companies on the corporate evil scale) wine-n-dine psychiatrists six-ways-to-sunday and back: corporate lear jet flights to golf-getaway vacations, fake "special seminars" that are simply organized "field-trips" to fun and "enticing" exotic locales, you-name-it, there's no end to the "perks"

if my master Cynicalman was here (where are you daddy!? ;-) he could and would rightly say: IT'S ALL ABOUT THE MONEY !  so no need for me to elaborate!  

Adbusters is funny!  LOL

--

but to address something very important you said, every well-trained psychiatrist or mental health specialist will tell you that EXERCISE and DIET are two of the most important factors. i think excercise is probably even more important. 20-mins of cardio, 3 times a week is as good as 20mg of Prozac a day, or so used to say a doctor of mine (yes, i suffer from depression, whoopee! :-)

but to echo a point already made on this board, one should NEVER fail to detect the root of real clinical depression emerging and instead choose to treat it with food, exercise, prayer, whatever.

if that stuff helps, by all means use it. if not it's a simple matter of accepting the fact that some people need these drugs just as a diabetic needs insulin

we don't hear people telling diabetics:  "stop acting like a child and regulate your own blood sugar!"


anyway, i'm not laughing (LOL) because it's not a laughing matter ... i have friends (including on this board) who also suffer from depression. i'm really preaching to them i guess (the choir i hope)

ok ... i will smile (for IW)

:-)



"Happy Happy, Joy Joy"  -- Ren & Stimpy





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Dionisios5559 reads

I'll have to check it out.  Have both those stores in my area.

I'm in about 95% agreement with you.  Meds are way oversold and overprescribed.  For that matter, depression is probably way overdiagnosed.  On the other hand, there are people and situations where med offer the only hope currently available.  I've got such a person in my family.

This is not to suggest any change in your regimen.  You've found something that works for you, by all means stay with it.

BTW, ain't it nice that working out to feel well brings looking well along with it for free?

Once again, thanks for the information.  To return the favor, let me suggest James Gleick's "Faster" for some of the ways society stresses people to the breaking point.

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papercup4014 reads

Beautiful post Sedona.  Good insights and good suggestions too.  On the other hand, I can't disagree with Megapig's position either.  

Depression. Yeah, I've been there, done that (I don't mean "just a little sad," either).  I'll do it again too.  In fact, due to a recent development, I'm doing right now as I type.  But you know what?  I'll get over it.  People get depressed for all sorts of reasons, but they stay depressed because they won't let go of what's bothering them.  Solving that riddle, why they won't let go, goes a long way to solving the depression itself.

Megapig's post was harsh and insensitive and didn't take into account the clinical aspects, or chemical/synapse relationships, etc, etc., but sometimes I think that too much is focused on that side of it.  I mean, for how many years should a person have to go to counseling or take Zoloft (which, BTW, kills the sex drive for both men AND women), Prozac or whatever?  Is it really helping if you're never really cured?

Depression is a very tough nut to crack, believe me, I know.  But a lot of what Megapig said is valid, and more than just superficially.

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sportster12003195 reads

I think you're headed in the right direction. It's easier for people to blame anything than it is to take personal responsibility and solve problems. Laziness is a basic human weakness in all generations and social classes.
Life is difficult and complex and each person has to make their own journey. This journey takes constant learning and growth, which doesn't always make us happy. I doubt that happiness is really a worthy goal anyway, because it doesn't support learning and growth.
Spirituality can be used to focus the mind on learning, growth and accomplishing things, thereby providing gratification as a viable alternative to happiness. Happiness is still available, it's just not always in our control and perhaps not a primary goal.
Too many factors in our society, including organized religions focus on happiness. Maybe we can only have so much happiness, because like sex, drugs, etc, we always need more and more to stay happy. Spirituality can be philisophical and not religious.
If we can talk about sex, how about politics. We do have the ability to install a federal government that cares more about the middle class instead of just the rich. Republicans care only about their own yatchs, but a rising tide raises all boats. It's the economy George.

YMMV

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sedonasandiego3609 reads

I have always felt that happiness is fleeting, and relative, while JOY springs eternal.
While I have great joy, I'm not always happy.

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megapig3806 reads

I'm always impressed by the people that think that the President controls the economy.  As if .. on the second floor of the White House .. right next to the broom closet ... there's a control panel for the economy .... and it has a switch that goes from High to Low ... and all the President has to do is flip he switch.  Bush isn't smart enough to find it ... Jimmy Carter couldn't even understand the markings on the switch (went from BAD to REALLY BAD while he stood there smiling as if is Lithium Drip finally kicked in.   Remember 15% Prime Rates?)

Allen Greenspan can't find it, either.

But it HAS to be THEM, right?   Can't be US, can it?  Couldn't POSSIBLY be us middle class people ... with our little 401K plans ... DEMANDING that our fund managers give us double digit returns, could it?   After all ... every stock holder in AT&T is PLENTY happy to see 0% return on their investments aren't they?

Yeah .. it has to be them ... or if not them ... then someone else.   As long as it's not us.    Cuz if it's US ... boy do we have some explaining to do!


-- Modified on 7/30/2003 7:07:23 PM

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sportster12004850 reads

The economy is a cause of depression in our society. I know that tourism is down in New England this summer; How about where you live.
The Republican tax cuts have only helped the rich at the expense of everyone else. They haven't helped the economy half as much as they would if they were given to the middle class, because much more of the money would be pumped into the economy. Then corporations would earn more income to pay higher dividends.
And I didn't blame them instead of us. I said it was something that we have the power to change.
If I misunderstood your response please let me know.

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Tatoogirl743504 reads

is just like you said.. look at the world....it is a sad place.
The upside of it is you must make the best of your life everyday.

Most people are depressed because of some  powerful reasons: examples are lust and greed. We all want ...

Less is more....really it is.

Shaye

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megapig2878 reads

Well said Shaye

I'd only point out one thing ... the world is not a sad place.  We have the power to MAKE it a sad place by how we view it, how we try to measure ourselves against other peope ... etc.

But like you said ... less can be more ... we can measure ourselves against what we put IN to the world ... not what we get FROM it .... and we can find that it's a wild, exciting, intriguing and challenging place ..... that makes us thankful to be even a small part of it.

-- Modified on 7/30/2003 7:53:04 PM

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Turkana3590 reads

I agree -- in fact, for the most part, we have the power to choose who and what we are and want to be.  Particularly if we are mature adults -- say over 35 -- we have the experience, the power and the responsibility to take charge of our destinies.  We have no excuses to be self-indulgent or to blame others.  If we want to be happy, or at least joyous, we can - within the limits that God has given us.

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Dionisios3941 reads

This is really a response to the entire thread, not just the original post.  This story is rather ancient.  I stole this version from Pete Seeger:

''The king received a message that a sea captain had larded on the coast with a strange animal called an elephant. So he called his seven wise men and said: 'Oh seven wise men, go down to the seaport and report to me what manner of beast this elephant is. The seven wise men got into the king's carriages, clip-clop, clip-chop, clip-clop, and they went to the ship. But they'd been reading books so damn long they were blind as bats. When they got there, one felt the legs of the elephant. He said, "hmmmmmmmm." Another one felt the side.  He said, "hmmmmmmm." Another one felt the ear. . ."hmmmmmmmm." Another one felt the tusk, another one felt the trunk, another one pulled on the tail - bad luck for him. Well, they all got into the carriages and went back to the palace. They bowed low and one said, "Your Majesty, this elephant is very much like the trunk of a tree." Another one said, "Why, you're very much mistaken. I felt it myself. It's like the side of a building." The third started screaming, "Why you're both crazy! I felt it - it's like the large leaf of a plant." The next one said, "No, it's like a smooth spear!," another one said, "No, it's like a huge snake!" Now they were all shouting, and the last one screamed a the top of his lungs, "No, it's like a rope that hangs down from heaven, and you pull on it and the whole heavens open up."

The moral, of the story, of course, is that the truth is many sided. ''

My point is that every post in this thread has merit (welll, not so sure about the joke).  If we view them not as competitors for THE TRUTH but rather as pieces of a jigsaw puzzle to assemble (and there are still missing pieces), we'll have begun the process of understanding.

Sedona, thanks for starting this thread.  It's gotten us all thinking, a worthy accomplishment.  I have only one trivial criticism: it could use a couple of paragraph breaks.

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VonRyan3083 reads

(the blind men describing the elephant) ought to be considered. As the one observing the trunk, I can only say... I think I am right in saying an elephant is like a snake. I can not say you are wrong in your insistence that an elephant is like a tree. Nor can you... me.

lATER THAT SAME DAY...
the same elephant, being a "dick", asks a camel at the local watering hole: "So, why do you suppose God put your breasts on your back?" "Strange question," replied the camel between slurps, "coming from somebody who's got a dick on his face."


so the moral of the story is not only the truth many sided
but also don't judge a book by its cover.

In closing,to those that suffer depression, remember there is help out there for you.Keep the faith and don't give up hope.

-- Modified on 7/31/2003 6:58:24 AM

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Singer3110 reads

it allows me to have fun without the risk of being caught with my pants down.  (Sorry, couldn't resist)

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VonRyan6154 reads

alright providers.... finish the sentence?

I'm sure many will not touch this subject with a 10 foot"pole".
Booiiinnnnggggg!

....all in good fun...and maybe a dash of erotica too...Cheers!

-- Modified on 8/1/2003 12:29:28 PM

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