While I am not an attorney, I am aware of the definition of conspiracy and am aware that LE often stretches definitions to justify an arrest on a Felony charge...when applicable.
Girls getting together, sharing info about clients, okaying clients is not the activity of a independent misdemeanor but seems to me, could be construed as Felony organized conspiracy etc. I also wish to protect myself for any involvement in ORGANIZED efforts to break the law.
Does that seem clearer to you now? I hope so. We are all free to decide which risks to take but please don't lay a trip on those of us who are extra cautious in protecting our own ASSets and subsequently make decisions different than yours. I learned a big lesson from Operation Flea Collar. I hope others did too.
I have contacted a couple different providers for references recently. (Some might have gotten the email sent.)
When I see a new client, I attempt to get a reference. In this case, the gentlemen was fine with it. Apparently some (not all) of the ladies don't even write back and say "I don't give out references."
My question, do any ladies go through the same thing.
As a matter of fact I explain to my clients to please feel free to use me as a reference. I will wait to be contacted by the other provider and try my best to be timely about responding. I have not had any bad experiences with other provider either here in San Diego. I want to be safe and also want others clients and fellow providers to be able to go home at the end of the day safe to their families. I am sorry you are having trouble with this. My clients usually send me a heads up someone will be contacting me soon note. I let the client know when someone contacts me and that I have responded. Something that I think is dangerous is when because a provider is well known that another provider will assume and not follow up. This to me is dangerous, if anyone says they have seen me please follow up and i will respond. Be safe as I am sure you are trying to do based on this post. Kisses & Licks......... Mara of San Diego
you with the same girl longer. It's really stupid in my opinion. Anyway, you can stop seeing the girls who refuse to give references and tell them you will not see someone who is possessive about customers. The girls will always come up with lame excuses about why they don't give references, like: I can't remember, I thought she was your wife, it is for my safety (untrue). Just cut those girls loose and help encourage a good habit in the industry.
I was recently asked for references by a soon to visit provider, one with most excellent GFE reviews btw. I emailed or called a couple of local providers to "first ask" if they would be comfortable with this Both answered yes, and a dream date will soon be in my arms.
The only thing I ask, is that the gentleman in need of a reference give me direct permission (& to remind me of who he is, since I have no records to look at) to give a thumbs up to the specified lady.
Other than that, I have no problem with giving a reference.
I try and limit my postings only on topics of importance and I really have to share my thoughts on this subject because I’m a touring escort and references are so essential for safety reasons so Mod please don’t delete…
You should have certain guidelines before giving references to protect the gentlemen’s identity because not all reference requests are legitimate. Please only give references to those escorts who have reputable email addresses and web presences. I will not, under any circumstances give or receive references over the phone.
Ladies… please understand you do not own these gentlemen that patronize your business. By not giving references you’re not only jeopardizing your chances of a return visit from someone you’ve seemingly enjoyed, you’ve just lowered your professional status a notch.
Many men use certain women they’ve enjoyed the company of and feel comfortable knowing they’ll provide a nice reference for them. Some don’t understand why you haven’t responded to a reference request and some aren’t comfortable with it. I always let them know when you don’t respond and I’m sure others do also.
We’re not asking for references for performance reasons, we only want to know if he’s a gentleman and if we can feel comfortable in the presence of their company. Always remember you’re a reflection of your business and it’s your professionalism that determines your stability in this seemingly turbulent industry.
While I am not an attorney, I am aware of the definition of conspiracy and am aware that LE often stretches definitions to justify an arrest on a Felony charge...when applicable.
Girls getting together, sharing info about clients, okaying clients is not the activity of a independent misdemeanor but seems to me, could be construed as Felony organized conspiracy etc. I also wish to protect myself for any involvement in ORGANIZED efforts to break the law.
Does that seem clearer to you now? I hope so. We are all free to decide which risks to take but please don't lay a trip on those of us who are extra cautious in protecting our own ASSets and subsequently make decisions different than yours. I learned a big lesson from Operation Flea Collar. I hope others did too.
If the gentleman hasn't seen the previous escort in like months up to a year, it would be helpful for the gentleman to help the provider remember when they had last met. You just don't know, how many times, that I have been contacted by another provider, and I couldn't remember who the gentleman was that I had seen..lol Just some simple advice
Whether a gal would give references is not something that usually comes into the conversation with the gals I see, but when it has all but one said they would. But one thing did come up in discussion once that maybe should be noted. One gal told me she received a request regarding another guy that turned out to be completely bogus. With that in mind, I would explain I needed to contact the original gal first (so that she'd know the request was legit) before offering her name as a reference. I'm not often asked for provider references, but I've handled it that way a couple of times & there's been no problems with it.
this way you can remind the provider when and maybe where you met and the fact that provider xyz will be requesting a reference on your behalf. This isusually the way it works and I hav ee-mailed my client back leting them know that I responded and also when they never call, it is a heads up for the client as well. As always I agree with you baby.......kisses & Licks..... Mara of San Diego
I give references, it usually works better if the guy contacts me first to let me know someone will be contacting me regarding a reference for him. I think if we can all work together, networking and supporting each other we can make this hobby a more user safe environment. Be safe and have fun,
I do not mind providers contacting me as a reference, I want everyone to be safe. Although most providers do not see things this way because they feel they will loose/share their client. Silly, I know a man is going to be a man and if he comes my way WELL........! I am true to the hobby not new to the hobby i don't trip, I just keep it movin Indigo'Styl.........NEXT!!!
P.S. I've learned that in this business you have to go with your gutt feeling and hold it down yourself, plus it is less stress. If you ever get a client that mentions my name hola at me I got you I only deal with cool peeps and I ain't scared!!!
P.S True soilders roll solo, I only have others providers in my business when there is a need.
Hi Shaye, I have no problem giving references and I have never given any excuse not to give one, but a lot of traveling provider wait until the same day of the appointment and ask for a reference. I do have a busy schedule myself and not always able to send a quick reply email.
So I try to respect the provider wishes anyway and call the provider by phone to clear the client. Not one have rejected the phone call, but why would they. Image 4 provider visiting at the same time. I have to do it in favor of my clients. Maybe that is why they call me the famous Ruth
Wait until the last minute to try to make the appointment, assuming that because they have a reference it won't be a problem. This happens on both sides. I know I have tried to accomodate a gentleman who was travelling before with that whole "I'm here tonight only and I'd love to see you," thing. I just had that happen this week, even! So sometimes it is the guys, not the ladies, waiting until the last minute.
1. I am a very private person and since girls can get possessive, I don't want to deal with jealousy from another provider who knows I am seeing a client that they are seeing.
2. Girls sometimes use the "reference" as a reason to make contact but then start asking a lot of personal questions that I prefer not to answer. The whole situation is very uncomfortable for me, especially when the other provider is very pushy and doesn't respect boundaries.
These are my personal past experiences. If a client absolutely needed a reference from me and had no other provider who could provide one, yes I would do it for him. But I HATE it when girls call me and ask lots of questions "How many times have you seen him?" "What does he like to do?" "Do you charge him extra for this and that?"
And then they go into questions about where I advertise, how much money I spend each month on advertising (No one's business!) How much money I make (again, no one's business) and have I seen so and so, blah blah blah.
I just want to do my business privately and not get involved in any cliques. I have a life outside of this work and am not a "lifestyle escort", if you know what I mean.
How do you guys feel about girls sharing info with other girls about their clients without the client's knowledge. Girls like me who don't want to be contacted, are the ones who DON'T talk about clients or give out client's phone numbers to other girls.
You can't have it both ways. If you want girls providing references for you, then realize those are the girls who will probably blab all about you to other girls on private provider boards or sell/trade your info to other girls, behind your back.
I'm glad that you've found a way of working that works for you without the whole process of giving or receiving references. I hope that you never *need* one from a lady, also! (Heaven forbid, right?) But I do resent the implication that all of us who use references are gabbing and gossiping about our clients behind their backs. Frankly, it just isn't true. That runs right along with the kind of mindset that assumes that all ladies in this industry are alcoholics, or drug addicts, or desperate, or fill in the blank with whatever. It's nonsense. Does it happen? Yes, absolutely! Is it with EVERY girl who gets and gives references? Of course not!
I'm also unsure of what you're trying to say by your comment about "lifestyle escorts." What is that supposed to mean? The bottom line is that we are all in this industry together... I don't care if you take one appointment a month with a two day minimum, or if you take ten a day... we're all in this together and we can help to keep each other safe. You can say "Oh I'm not like those other girls," and I would ask you, "In what sense?" We're all different and unique, are we not? But we're all in the same 'biz. I think I'm different from girls whose motivation to get into this 'biz are different than mine. In some ways that's true. But I'm not going to sit up on a high horse in a glass house and throw stones, either.
What you *said* was that hobbyists should be aware that a lady who will provide or accept a reference for them, is the same lady who will gossip about them. A neither true nor fair statement. Each of us has to find what we are comfy with in this industry and I have no objection to any lady choosing what is right for her... I do have an objection to a statement like that which seems, to me, to be trying to make other ladies look bad.
The girls that are kind enough to send them and the ones that Ive sent out are very vague in their emails..it's usually..'he was polite and clean and I had no problems'..along those lines. I zero in on reference request in my in box because I know 2 other people are waiting and trying to make plans, and I answer them as quickly as possible. Great post Tigrlily...xxo
...that there are those in whom trust can be placed, & you are definitely one of them. Just another reason why you're a favorite of so many guys..myself included naturally.
Of course since I don't keep written records, and don't remember clients' names very well, I wouldn't be much help.
How embarassing to tell a caller, "I am sorry but I don't remember you." (insulting too) And it doesn't do the provider any favors to lie to her and say "Oh yeah I remember him, he's fine."
But for those girls who keep detailed records of clients, I can see how it would be easy to give out referrals to other girls. You can easily check your records to validate him as a client.
The reason I posted on this thread was to give a different perspective as to why a provider might not give/provide references afterall the question was "Why Don't Providers Give Out References?" I simply answered that question as to why "I" don't. It was not to defend my position because I don't need to defend myself. I would think those clients who are most concerned about their privacy would be relieved to know I don't keep records.
I see a lot of clique-ish behavior on this board and notice many girls will jump on another for doing things differently instead of looking at it from a different perspective and maybe learning something from it. I don't criticize any of you for giving/providing references but just know there is another side to it. Why are you giving/providing references? My big question is this...Are you accepting references in place of screening the client properly?
Surely its not just physical safety you are concerned about after all do you expect a girl to say "Oh yes I saw him and he pulled a knife on me, raped me and robbed me. Don't see him"
Have any of you ever been told NOT to see a client. If so, did you go back to the client and tell him you cannot see him because the provider told you X Y and Z about him?
I believe your primary motivation is to validate he is not LE. Therefore it seems to me, in my non-attorney understanding of the law, that you are conspiring with each other to avoid arrest. I could be wrong but this how this referencing strikes me.
Some of us trust our own instinct, won't see a client whom we cannot screen so that we are comfortable and aren't afraid to walk away from money. I couldn't be alone in this policy...
Seriously...I have never understood this "reference" thing you girls have going. If you screen your clients why do you need a reference?
Talisa, you know it's not so much *what* you are saying as *how* you are saying it. Every lady in this industry has a different way of screening. We all have different things we are comfy with. Different clients we choose to see, etc and so forth. I do not see ladies arguing with each other about this. But comments like "Ladies who give references also gossip," and assuming that ladies who give references must keep detailed records on their clients, seem, to me at least, to be an attempt on your part to make other ladies look bad. Not *different*, oh noooooooo...bad. Your little way of saying "Look how much better I am, because I don't do these things!"
The problem here is that NOT all ladies who use references either keep records or gossip about their clients or are in any other way indiscreet. I invite you to take a peek at my reviews and I can assure you that among the gentlemen who have reviewed me, each one has provided me with either his work information or a reference from another lady... and I have NEVER had occassion to have any client doubt my discretion. This is such a sensitive topic in this industry... it's already difficult enough for us to get the information we need from clients without their distrust or resentment in many cases. The last thing we ladies as a group need, is one of our own making it more difficult by spouting the generalizations that you have been.
Now it's obvious to me that you do not consider yourself a part of this group of providers... but I hate to break it to you... like it or not, you ARE one of us. Honestly I cannot see why anyone wouldn't want to be a part of the warm, intelligent, and caring group of ladies I've met in this industry... but you are welcome to your opinion. Stating your preference can *easily* be done without attempting to insult ladies who do things differently... that is my only point.
You misunderstood me. I am not saying all girls who provider references are gossips. I am saying I have seen it denigrate to that on several incidences in the past. I know it happens. I have been contacted in the past by girls asking questions I thought were not appropriate about the client and also about myself. I am simply NOT COMFORTABLE with this arrangement.
I also find it funny that guy would be so concerned about his personal info being kept by a provider, but then expect a girl to be able to refer to her records to give him a reference when it serves his best interest. Believe me, if John Smith calls and says he saw me 6 months ago and wants me to be able to give a reference for him to another provider, I probably won't know if I did or did not see him UNLESS by some chance he stands out and even then I have a difficult time placing a name with a face and remembering if he was or was not a good client. If he was awful then I probably will remember. But thankfully most clients are very nice.
As far as being part of a "sisterhood." etc...I understand your point but would prefer to help other girls by channeling my energy into political activism instead of a potential legal conspiracy. I am not comfortable with the potential legal ramifications along with all the other problems that goes with giving references.
However I respect your right and your choice in participating in references. All I ask is that the same understanding and respect is afforded those of us who choose, for whatever reasons, not to participate. No one should be attacked, ridiculed nor ostracized for protecting themselves whatever way they see fit and this extends to those who both choose and choose not to give references.
I've receive reference requests from girls all over the country and have never experienced any of the things you mentioned.
References are very important for safety reasons and maybe safety isn't your ultimate concern. Each person has the perogative to handle their business any way they wish.
Safety is my primary concern which is why I do my own screening. With my screening protocol a referral is never necessary.
And I haven't received referral requests since I started this policy and placed it on my website with one exception when a client had no one else from the internet he had seen asked me to make an exception because he really wanted to see a particular escort who only accepted referrals and I made an exception and obliged by telling the provider I had seen him.
I simply posted as to why I abide by this policy since it is clear there is a lack of understanding. Its purpose was to promote understanding, to beinformative...you know expand the mind and such and not meant to criticize nor sway how others do their business.
When requesting a reference, a reputable provider will never ask anything personal of you. I can understand your not wanting to "get involved with cliques," because that is also MY desire, but giving references has nothing to do with socializing. By giving a reference, you are promoting the safety of the provider requesting it. Sure, there are other ways to screen, but this way seems to be the most uninvasive as far as releasing personal information goes.
I provide references to every reputable provider that requests one with a simple "yes" or "no." Discretion, on the other hand, is so important to me that I won't even release the name of a hobbyist for a reference to the Atlanta socials.... even though the hobbyist said I could. To me, it's just a matter of principle.
I agree that we are all in this together, providers and hobbyists alike. Hobbyists have a responsibility to inform each other through reviews and board postings of rip-offs as well as good and bad providers. Providers have a responsibility to check references for one another and if available, post their DNS lists on provider only boards.
I am sure that Talisa has ran into ladies who are jealous that their client is seeing someone else and also ladies who ask all sorts of questions about the client that are not appropriate.
Based upon my own personal experiences in this hobby I know that this happens sometimes. The ladies who have never had this happen to them are incredibly lucky.
On the other hand why should anyone be surprised that Talisa has generalized this to all ladies. On 7/28/02 and 6/19/02 she made posts on this board stating that all the ladies that made TBD's regional lists paid TBD with money or services to be put on those lists. When other ladies stated that this was not true Talisa essentially told them that they were not telling the truth.
If my linking skills were better I would provide links to these posts.
I was simply posting MY personal experiences from the few times girls have called me. I've been asked questions I felt were too invasive. I am not talking about anyone else's experience. I don't think its jealousy as much as nosiness...wanting to get into someone else's business.
It is MY preference not to give nor receive references. I shouldn't be put down or denigrated by the lovely ladies on this board for not participating in their referral system. This is an example of why I don't wish to be involved with any of you ladies on a personal level. When someone operates differently, you don't understand and start up this silly finger-pointing and name calling.
As for my posts about TBD Top Lists, I stand by those comments. That is my belief.
This is why I don't like cliques...you expect others to operate under the same protocol as the group, with no tolerance for individuality. There seems to be a lack of understanding of the law, legal implications and how people find themselves getting into trouble. Some people learn the hard way...oh well. C'est L'Vie!
Trying to make this about finger pointing or juvenile behavior... lady, *you* are the one coming on the boards and making nonsense comments about ladies who take referrals being gossips, keeping detailed records, etc. Not to mention your comments about TBD. So the hostility you are getting in response has nothing to do with a clique (I'm not in any) or any other such BS... it has everything to do with what YOU are saying. Now it's obvious that for your own reasons you do not want to be on friendly terms with other ladies... fine! But don't expect a free pass to come on this board or any other and talk trash without anyone saying anything based on "well, she's unique!" Unique is fine... and I've watched you backtracking and trying to rephrase things more nicely... so maybe in future you'll think BEFORE you type.
BTW, if you really believe that calling a gent at work is "The Ultimate Screening," you're bonkers. That's just as easily faked as anything else, and really we should make use of ALL the resources at our disposal to ensure that a gent is safe for us to see.
Talisa you have demonstrated how clever you are with your post on Conspiracy. I am not an attorney either but your logic may have some merit.
I noticed on your last post that for at least the third time on this board you have stated that all of the ladies on TBD's top regional and national lists paid either with money or in other ways for the privilege of being on his lists. I am sure that you are not making these wide sweeping allegations without having rock solid proof of what you are saying. If you were making these hurtful accusations just based upon hearsay and innuendo that would make you a very malicious person imho.
Since you seem have such a vast amount of first hand rock solid proof in this matter, I think that if I was one of Johnny boy's young bucks I would drop a subpoena on you, grant you immunity from prosecution and drag you in front of a grand jury. If you refused to testify I would have you jailed for contempt of court. If you lied you would be subject to perjury charges. Think of all the arrests that could be made based upon your rock solid proof and there would be no need to have any other VIP's as witnesses so there would be no need to protect their names from public scrutiny. This tactic is nothing new and has been used against the mob on several occassions. I am sure that this board is monitored by LE. If the Feds actually felt that you had anything more than innuendo and hearsay you would have already seen that subpoena.
This is the last I have to say about TBD and your generalizations. And to those that would flame me for giving LE ideas, LE has thought about this long ago because this sort of tactic has been used at times for 50 years.
And I hate to try to argue with someone when I know their mind is already made up... it's a whole different ballgame than having an actual *discussion* with someone. But personally I feel like it's my responsibility to myself and the wonderful ladies that I work with, as well as the gentlemen who come to see us. References can only help ALL of us assure our safety and discretion, handled correctly. The one time I had a lady ask me an inappropriate question about a client, I deflected it easily... you know, because someone asks something inappropriate doesn't mean you have to answer. Not to mention that often if a lady is new and doesn't know better, it might not hurt to just say, "hey, that's inappropriate!" Maybe she doesn't know or hasn't thought of it. Of course there is a bottom 2% of scumbags of ANY group... but throw me in the same barrel with them? No thank you... and the vast majority of the ladies I know don't belong there either.
And I don't care that others do choose to engage in the practive of giving references. It doesn't effect me either way. However I would under no circumstances ever accept a reference. I trust myself, my own screening policies and my instincts.
Just understand there are several reasons and concerns that have lead to me choosing not to participate and its not a bad thing. I personally have some issues with the practice, concerns and so forth based on my own past experiences and the experiences of other girls that I have known.
Hope now that I have answered the original question, "Why Don't Some Providers Give References", that I have in some way enlightened some of you and brought some understanding as to why some providers don't participate.
I can only speak for myself and these are my reasons. There are probably as many reasons for not giving references as there are providers who don't give them.
As far as clients go, I believe most clients see "everyone" anyway so to not give a reference for no other reason than to try to hold onto a client and make him your "pseudo-boyfriend" is in my opinion "unhealthy" and I have warned other girls of not making the mistake of expecting fidelity from a client, (especially one who is married) It is silly and not a reasonable expectation.
I still don't understand if you screen your clients properly, why you would even need a reference.
And if I did give you a reference and told you the client was a jerk and such, was nice to my face then wrote a nasty review, had Body Odor, foul breath and did not respect my boundaries...well I would hate it if you told him you were not going to see him because of what I told you. The consequences, the potential problems this could cause me makes me shudder.
Based on minimal screening, I can make up my own mind whether I want to see a client, and definitely do not need the benefit of another provider's opinion on the client. An opinion is just that, and without knowing the source of the opinion any better than we providers know each other, it is totally worthless to me. As has been mentioned already, to me it's not so much what the hobbyists says when he is asked for information, but how he says it.
I have been asked to provide references to other providers in the past, and have obliged on two occasions. In both cases I was reamed out but these ladies a day or so after the appointment with the client and told that I was totally incorrect/crazy with the information I had given. Both providers complained about how the guy wanted multiple pops, BBBJ, different positions, in a nutshell the clients were just too much trouble for their lazy asses to handle. Having had a wonderful session with both of the gentlemen in question, I don't give references anymore. The clique thing is also a huge issue to me. Are there really hobbyists out there who don't mind a gang of providers getting together and discussing in them in way too much detail, almost trying to outdo each other with the unnessary info they offer? No crap responses here saying it doesn't happen, please,because I know from personal experience that it does. I have been asked participate in general discussions anong providers requesting info on a hobbyist, and no only declined, but been shocvked at the level of unnecessary detail offeres. Providers need to get smart, wake up, learn to stand on their own two feet and be able to make their own decisions about hobbyists without needing a coffee clutch of other providers to cast their votes and choose their direction. Intelligent providers unite!
If they don't hide behind an alias... at least stand behind what you're saying.
And btw, by jumping to generalizations about ladies in this industry (the TWO of how many out there?) you've had bad experiences with, you are no better than the rest of the country and what they think of ladies in our line of work. You keep interesting company for an intelligent provider!
I do too! Anytime one of the ladies has a gentleman saying he knows me, and gives you my email, or # please call/mail me. I think we MUST stay together on this!!! I won't see anyone without verification, period.
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