Need some advice:  Had an incall session, left my payment in cash out on table.  Stripped down and had the session.  Afterwards went into the bathroom to clean up.  Came out and found the provider had my wallet in her hand and had removed $20 out of it. Confronted her and she said she hadn't been working and needed money.  I was pissed but held my temper.  Told her to call her agency to figure out what to do.  She couldn't get the guy on the phone, which is not unusual.  After a few minutes of waiting I decided to leave.  Told her I was taking the payment back and would call the agency to figure out what to do.  My intention was to give the agency their share, but she would get nothing.   Harsh I know, but I have no tolerance for a provider that does that sort of thing.  

Called the agency guy while driving, but he wanted me to go back and make the full payment.  I was adamant about not doing that. Then he wanted me to put the money in an envelop, find a restaurant or someplace and leave it in the mens room hidden for him.   For obvious reasons I refused to do that.  By now he is angry at me and says the girl has told him she didn't do it and I was trying to rip him off.  I told him that was not my intention and I would Western Union the money to him.  He doesn't want to get it that, wanted it right away.  

After a lot of discussion and some heated cursing by him not directed to me,  I told him nothing was happening tonight and I would call tomorrow.  Now I am concerned about meeting him in person to give the money.  Looking for some advice on what to do.  I think most guys would have done what I did.  In hindsight I should have asked her what the agency cut was and left that with her, but I was rather pissed at the time and maybe not thinking straight.

Anyway,  I open to advice and suggestions.  I do not want to stiff the agency, but trying to stealing like that should not be tolerated. I know, leaving the wallet out was stupid but with an incall, it is tough to avoid.  I have used escorts all over the world and never had a problem like this before.

In my opinion, you're a good guy for even giving a fuck. Excuse my language, but if I were in your case, both of them would have been shit out of luck. Her for stealing; and him for making it so strange and difficult on you, if he wanted his money he should have compromised. He should be focused on his clientele-- the customer should be #1, especially in a situation such as this. I mean god who the hell ever heard of leaving it in some strange restaurant? God-- the whole thing sounds fishy on both parts!

My advice, stay away from a character like that who cant handle his business in a proper business manner and tone (i.e., cursing and throwing out strange scenarios for the money), at least in person, wire his money or nothing-- if he doesn't want it wired then he most not want it at all!!! Its not like he cant get it same day, within 15 minutes-- so wanting it that second placed in his hand is total bullshit....

grrr Im angry... I don't usually curse!

And stay away from agencies, (no offense to any agency girls) I hear many horror stories about guys and agency girls. Or only deal with the long standing reputable ones that you now use proper business conduct in times of trouble. At least with a solo provider you wouldnt've had the whole post ordeal with the weirdo guy...

Just a thought....

Dani-Banani

from this situation.  Unless you are a person that can easily defend himself under any circumstances(most men cannot), I suggest that you not meet the agency owner at all, you have no idea of what may be planned for you.
    Next time read reviews before making a decision.  If the provider tried to steal from you, then she probaly has tried it with others, that is the type of stuff that should show up in reviews.

I would say do not meet the agency owner.   He is making you feel like yow owe something and you do not.

There is no excuse whatsoever for the provider trying to steal from you and are being reasonable by telling the agency owner that you won't meet him and won't use the agency again.  It's worryimg what he might do to the lady concerned but don't put yourself in danger by meeting with him.

Very bad situation.  This is where doing your homework ahead of time really pays off.  Typically I do not as a rule bring extra funds with me into the appt for a couple of reasons.  It avoids your problem totally and if the lady is an upsell queen, you can honestly tell her you have no extra funds on you.

Down side to this is that if the pady really rocks your world you do not have anything extra to give to her if you so choose.

Bottom line Unless you plan on bringing some backup with you, I would avoid meeting this guy by all means.  I would have to beleivce your safety would be an issue based upon your description of the phone call.  Next issue may be he has your cell phone and other information about you and may track you down.

Proceed with caution.

If you had the sesson prior to her getting caught, then pay her. Do not meet with this guy/pimp/or agency owner....then write a review on TER explaining what happened. This lady has probably done this before and will do it again if she's not outed.

You had the session with the provider and then refused to pay
her or the agency anything.  You have stolen from both of them.

Your actions are completely inappropriate.  You caught her
attempting to steal from you.  You lucked out, you caught her in
the act.  This doesn't mean you have the right to stiff her and
the agency for services already rendered.

What you should have done is to write a review, post on the
boards, report her to the agency, etc, to warn people of her
extracuricular activities.  But stealing from her and the agency
is wrong and how your action somehow makes right for her
transgression is beyond me.  This holds true no matter how you
may try to justify it.

fr

The attempted theft, as bad as it was, does not somehow negate your responsibility for keep your end of the bargin for the session.

My intention was never to stiff the agency, and I think I said that right up front. I have used them in the past and they have always been fair.  This was a new girl for them and they just didn't know something like this would happen.  She was smart enough not to take all of the money out of the wallet, so I wonder if other guys that used her might have lost something and not even realized it.

After catching her red handed and having a confrontation with her, I was not walking out of there leaving her with all of the money, not knowing what she would tell the agency.  As I said in the original post, I acknowledged my responsibility to the agency, and I did immediately call them.   My reluctance came when he started losing it.

I think there is a strong case to stiff the girl.  In my opinion she deserves nothing, but since the agency wants to pay her I will go along with them.   I have worked a satisfactory solution with the agency today and will send the money to them by anonymous money order to a P.O. Box.  I will pay the full fee and the agency will deal with the girl in their own way. If the agency had tried to threaten me in any way, I would have walked away and not thought twice about stiffing them,  but they are being reasonable about it now.   I guess a good night sleep helps to calm people down.

What makes the whole thing really stupid on her part, was that she was essentially stealing what would have been her tip anyway.  So now she is probably out of her job there and I will never feel comfortable using that agency again because of their initial reaction. I saw a bit too much of nastiness on their part last night.  It makes you realize that in the end the agency is often nothing more than a high class pimp, but in the end pimps are pimps.  When you start to see what you think is a nice guy on the phone start to turn into a thug over the phone,  it opens your eyes and reminds you this really is a very sordid business.

Post the name of the lady and the agency to warn everyone.
You obviously can not report her to the police like you would any other professional who tried to steal from you while providing a service.

As any business the agency is responsible for the actions of their employees.

Why do we hold agencies and thier employees to a lower standard of business practices than we do in the real business world?

Are we not we the customers always reminded that it's a business?

I disagree, 100%.

Picture this.  You are in a taxi.  The cab takes you to your location and then the cabbie turns around with a gun and tells you to give him your wallet.  You (stupidly) wrestle the gun from his hand.  Do you still pay him for the ride?

She forfeited her payment for services rendered the second she went into his wallet.  She should count herself lucky to get away without being paid and not being arrested.  In any other business, he could have called the cops.

I go back and forth on the issue of whether or not to pay the agency their cut.  She was their representative.  If I was desperate to use them again, I'd probably pay them some money to stay in their good graces but, otherwise, probably not.

1.  Check TER for reviews on a provider first
2.  Don't carry around extra cash
3.  Don't give up your personal info (I'd be worried about that agency guy --- he could try to track you down --- and f*** you up just for vengeance)

Remember, folks, no matter how you cut it, this hobby is illegal.  You're in it, and if something goes wrong, it's on you and you alone!

Reon't pay a robber.

"In any other business, he could have called the cops."  While this statement is true, it does not justify his withholding of money for services that were rendered.  As has been suggested, the better course would have been to get his wallet, make sure he only paid for what he received, get out of there, and WRITE A REVIEW.

It now seems dicey as to how to make things right.  If he does meet, it better be in a very public place.

good luck to him!

Wheather taking the money in the first place was a good idea or not is now irrelevent. You're willing to pay the agency and they're the ones who are making things difficult to proceed. Assuming that you're not more vulnerable than what you've written-married, the agency knows your home phone/address-then why not tell them that you'll mail the $$ to whatever address they want? No need to put yourself in a potentially dangerous, not to mention inconvenient, situation.

Ok.  Here's another analogy that is maybe better.

You have a housekeeper come to clean your home.  While you are there watching, she cleans up.  You go to the bathroom and when you come out you notice some of your wife's jewelry sticking out of the housekeepers pocket.

Would you still pay her for having cleaned the house?

You can pay someone who tries to rob you if you like.  I however would not, and I don't see anything immoral or unethical about that.

In your case you confront the person and get back your jewelry.

You are required to pay her for services rendered assuming she
has already cleaned your house.  Of course you report her to
agency.

It may feel better not to pay her.  It may even feel right.  But
in the end you are being immoral and unethical just because
someone else is.  Your solution is not moral or ethical.

fr

-- Modified on 9/17/2004 12:43:40 PM

-- Modified on 9/17/2004 12:54:00 PM

not paying for services rendered.  This applies to the agency
and the girl.

Like I said to Waterclone, you may feel justified in doing this.
But that does not make it right.

fr

-- Modified on 9/17/2004 12:46:38 PM

-- Modified on 9/17/2004 2:26:34 PM

I love how politically correct this board can be.  Let's be sure we are fair to the criminal and forget about the victim or potential victim.  The lady attempts to rob him but he should pay her for services rendered.  Sounds like a wonderful deterrent for behavior of this sort in the future.

Hey guys I am willing to come over to your house and do the cleaning for an hourly rate.  And of course if you catch me stealing money out of your wallet I am sure that you will pay me for the cleaning.  I just will not get a tip.  I am sure that will be a strong deterrent to that type of behavior in the future.

BTW the girl and agency are probably in it together.  It is probably not the first time she has stolen from someone and it has been reported to the agency.  The guy at the agency was just probably pissed that she was stupid enough to get caught.

Sorry for the sarcasm.

My first reaction to this was, screw them, don't give either the girl or the agency any money.  I have worked hard for everything I have and it really pisses me off when someone tries to rip me off or take advantage of me.  I tend to feel the same anger when I hear it happening to providers, hobbyists or other people.  But after cooling off and reviewing the situation a little more, I've decided to modify my post.

If this was a restaurant and you had a very upsetting incident happen after you had finished your dinner, no one would expect you to pay for the meal.  In fact a good restaurant manager would be offering you a free meal to try to keep your business.  However, there is what is expected of you and, as Frankie wisely pointed out, there's the right thing to do.  Unfortunately, most people don't expect us to do the right thing anymore.  You had the session, so you really owe both the girl and the agency the payment.  Just because she did something wrong afterwards doesn't make it right for you to do something wrong to her and the agency.  As Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. said, "An eye for an eye leaves everybody blind."

Since it's easy to play Monday morning quarterback, I would have paid the full amount for the session and complained to the agency guy afterwards.  If the agency guy is any good at all and wants to keep your business, he would have offered you a discount on a future session (and probably taken it out of the first girl's cut).  The agencies I use have given me this offer when I had a valid complaint about a session.  But now that the opportunity has passed, I wouldn't put myself in a dangerous situation just to give back the money.  I don't know this agency so I couldn't tell you how much to trust this guy.  You said you've used them before and they were pretty fair.  Maybe you could suggest bringing the money to your next session.

I recommend that you write a review on this girl with everything that happened to warn other guys to avoid her and perhaps be a little cautious about the agency too.


-- Modified on 9/17/2004 7:59:04 PM

I missed on this one bigtime.  I totally agree with you, the person that posted this basically stole from the provider because he caught her trying to steal from him.  He should have taken the extra money that she was lifting back then allow her to leave with her donation.  He could have then written a review detailing what happened.
    Again, good catch Frankie.

...the agency did its job-- they deserve thier fee. Just not handed over in person; mailed or wired, since this guy is a total nut job. They(he) shouldnt be stiffed though, they themselves did not steal.

My only issue with stiffing the girl is her agnecy no doubt will penalize her for stealing, and shes even more outed that way for not getting any money and then having to pay out money or possibly be fired (if this isnt her first offense)...

But thats called consequences and reprocutions, thats life-- when you do something bad there is going to be some kind of bad return on it, its called Kharma. Very simple rule-- do unto others as you would have done to yourself!!! Bad life and business dealings get dealt with just the same, its tacky to steal period, but when your already getting money from someone, and you choose to take more thats even worse-- thats greed! I think this is a very reasonable backlash-- and a very good lesson for furture reference! Maybe this slap in the face will wake her up that greed leads to nothing in the end; take and get taken from...

Punish her!!!

Dani...

These agency girls always rip off jons. Trying to jack the price up. Your not her first victim. Good job. Reviews never get up without pics

...people dont remember the golden rule? She stole-- she doesnt deserve the money she worked for because she was being greedy, and she deserves exactly what she did to him, no matter the denomination difference!

DO UNTO OTHERS AS YOU WOULD HAVE DONE TO YOURSELF!

I have no real symapthy for girls who steal... they give the rest of us a bad name.... I have been on too many "double dates" where the girls stole and I didnt know it-- and it came back on me because I was with her and I lost good clients because of it...

I just feel bad for her because she may be fired or have to pay the agency a penalty-- if this is infact an agency and not her pimp...

Dani

Reon't give either of them a penny.... You have a point about the resturant thing!

Im sorry Im replying so much, but I really hate when girls steal...

I know for a fact that when in a resturant, as in any proffesional setting, if the waiter was caught shortchanging you then he is reprimanded and your meal is on the house, no? I know that is what I have always seen when that happens...

Same scenario-- she was caught stealing-- your time with her should be free...

...on top of the golden rule about doing unto others-- this is the golden business rule as I stated in my first reply-- the sutomer comes 1st!!!

Dani-Banani

from her.  You are so fast to quote golden rules, how about this one.  "Sow the wind and reap the whirlwind".  What he did comes close to being illegal (other than the hobbying itself).  He should have taken the money that she was pinching back, left her donation and walked out.  He could have subsequently wrote an accurate review to detail what happened and properly deal with her and the agency.
    As things now stand, he may end up at the mercy of at least the agency owner.  One thing that strikes me as strange is how obsessed the agency owner is with the money.  Was it $250, $300, $400?  The agency should be able to cover several times that in a day.  Obsessive people never let issues come to a resting point and are generally capable of fairly extreme acts.
    BTW.  Your "do unto others" quote basically says that if you do not want to get stolen from, then you should not steal.

I would of done the same if I were in the situation.

I suppose this is a lesson learned. I try not to carry my wallet during a session, only my drivers license. And If i do have my wallet, I try not to have extra cash in it.

thats why I myself dont-- but I have no pity for those that do, and no she doesnt deserve anything for her greed... yes she reaps what she sow-- she gets basically stolen from for stealing. Now if your asking me do I think his Kharma will be bad for actually physically inflicting her bad kharma upon her himslef rather than letting it take its course and come back to bite her in the ass some other way, Im not sure--  but I know that she does not deaserve anything from him....

please refer back to my resturant response about when someone short changes you (which is basically stealing) and they get caught, they get in trouble and you rmeal is free...

Dani

He took back the fee and so we blame him for screwing the girl (literally, lol) and agency but in reality the girl tried to screw him. WTF kind of Twlight Zone episode is this?!

I agree with what he did and I would have done the same. IMHO

you safty is more in portain THANK GOD you ok at this point. Unless this is NV the LE dont help providers collect funds. IF they dont show up at look for you forget it. If they are nothing happen Lie call the LE. Most of the time the provider does some type drugs (I know use to babby sit of some with my X-GF). and they go thought so many guys you are long forrgen about unless you make a big deal of it or they goy you adress.
Never use the agancy and/or the provider again.

I just want to say something on behalf of the ladies.  In all of the time I have been hobbying I have only once had a lady rip me off in the manner you describe.  It was actually the first time I ever saw a provider and I was a young kid on vacation travelling through Las Vegas.  Maybe I have been lucky.  In other words I think this is a relatively rare situation based upon my experience.  While it might be a good precaution to not have a lot of money in your wallet I do not think this is an issue I would spend a lot of time worrying about.

I don't think there is anything amoral about refusing to pay someone who tried to rob you.  

Whenever we enter into any service agreement, there are implicit parts of the agreement that don't need to be mentioned.  "I won't rob you." is one of those.

Despite the fact that they had sex, she didn't give him the service as promised because she violated that implicit promise.  As such he was under no obligation to pay her.  She could just have easily have tried to stab him and take his money.  If he had fended off that attack do you still think he'd be obligated to pay her for the sex beforehand?

He could have taken back the money that she had fingered from his wallet and left things at that until the review was written.  Whether you are willing to admit it or not, he had sex with her and she was expecting a fee for the activity.  He took back the fee after the service was rendered, such an activity is dangerously close to rape.  Now do you get it?  Oh well, why would I ask such a question? It never penetrates a brick wall anyway.

Guess I was wrong, after my poor initial reading of your thread, to state that you are a piece of s..t for doing what you did as far as the earned donation was concerned.  Glad someone with such a powerful and global view of right and wrong weighed in.

You shouldn't have taken the fee back for two reasons.

#1. Services were rendered, she was entitled to compensation for it.

BUT, MOST IMPORTANTLY..........
#2..you don't want to fu*k with an agency owner/pimp kind of person.  These people aren't usually the church going pillars of the community if you know what I mean. I don't mean to generalize, some very nice and decent people, but there are definately your share of seedy characters in the mix.  Now this guy could have an axe to grind with you.  Maybe he'll do nothing about it...maybe he'll send his gorilla to break your knee caps, you just don't know. It has potential to be a can of worms that nobody wants to deal with.

You should have just walked away, called the agency guy to inform him, and wrote a review to inform the hobby community of this girls actions.


I speak from personal experience.  I wrote responded to some posts on a message board about a particular provider. She used look a like pics on her web site and stretched the truth on her stats. She wasn't a rip off or anything, but still she was a bit decieving in her ad.  So I responded accordingly, and I had written a review that included this information as well as the other goods and bads of my experience with her.

Her booking agent somehow figures out it was me behind the screen name. He calls my cell phone and leaves 25 minutes worth of voice messages calling me every name in the book, saying if I hurt her income he'll do the same to me by calling my boss at work. He told me how her clients were high ranking people in LE, politics, and even the mob, and he could have me fu*ked up in no time flat.  

I was 100% truthful in everything I wrote, good and bad, so I was ready to call the guy back and give him a piece of my mind. But I realized that it was better to just walk away......you just never know what your getting into, walking away is the best way to deal with it.

...it should be treated thus-- in any other situation he would have gotten a freebie for his trouble I believe he is entitled to one here as well. The agency is the one who should not be outed...

stop pitying the unworthy...

Dani

....is agaisnt someones will--she willingly (keyword willingly) went and had sex, he didnt force her, and she went into this knowing that she was going to perhaps steal from him; risking her self; she thereby forefiets her fee when she gets caught if she takes herself as a serious business woman. NO ONE IN THIER RIGHT MIND AND BUSINESS MIND WOULD STILL ASK FOR MONEY AFTER TRYING TO FUCK SOMEONE OVER. Notice he didnt really note any objection on her part in the retelling fo the events-- thats because she knew she was wrong! Thats business, you please your customer, and no matter if "services were rendered", she was caught stealing money from him-- she needs to apologize-- the best way is to just do the right thing, humble herself and hand him the money back...

Every one I have ever known that had gotten robbed by a provider and caught them always took the money back, they are not entitled to it!ITS NOT PROPER BUSINESS ETTIQUETE... GO TO THE SCHOOL AND ASK A BUSINESS TEACHER...

OR GO TO A RESTURANT AND ASK THEM WHAT IS THE PENALTY IS SOMEONE IS CAUGHT SHORTCHANGING A PATRON... THE MEAL IS FREE... STOP TREATING IT ANY DIFFERENT CAUSE ITS SEX...

Just cause its a girl and not a plate of food doesnt make is nay different and if you would stop thikning of it that way you could see so...

And because Im now curious if youre the only one who thinks so adamantly that she ought to keep the money, I will take a poll on the local boards and see...

IM NOT TRYING TO START A WAR HERE JUST PROVING A POINT....

Rape... thats ridiculous,

how about her raping his wallet... how about that?

Dani

Can someone explain to me how paying the girl after catching her stealing from you will give her ANY motivation to stop stealing from any of her future customers?

The way I see it...if she gets away with it...she does it again and again or if she gets caught and STILL gets everything she was owed and is only out the money she wasn't supposed to have in the first place so she does it over and over again...why not?

It's not like you can call the cops yourself and while writing a review SOUNDS good but what if she has no online presence or no reviews on TER in the first place?  At best a review would hurt her for just as long as it would take her to change her name

As for the "poor" agency/pimp...it is more than likely she has done this many times before and they knew about it...they do not care in the slightest UNLESS it impacts THEIR profits...they have plausible deniability....you think calling them and telling them what happened means squat to them?  Not a bit...at least until the girl gets so careless that more than a few men begin outing the girl online

I've never had a girl out and out steal from me but a quick check of my reviews shows I have run into a professional upseller...I called the agency to complain and they told me pretty much "Aw too bad"...it wasn't until I put up the review and followed up on many other sites that the girl was transfered to another town(STILL with that agency though)...I even found out later that the agency knew what she was doing because I wasn't the first man to complain about her

I'd be willing to bet that she still upsells...why not?

In YOUR view of things...what does she(or the agency) have to lose?  At worst either or both of them would have to change their names...big deal

BUT if she comes back with nothing to show for it enough times and either the agency will fire her or make certain(one way or another) she stops stealing from her clients

BTW I'm open to suggestions on another way to stop her from stealing...that would really work anyway

I was going to end this here but one last thing...I think many of us at TER are kind of spoiled...we pick and choice from among ladies with for the most part many reviews...ladies who would NEVER even think of ripping their clients off...ladies who provide exactly what they say they will and at the price they say they'll charge

To them a bad review would genuinely hurt them...they know this and do their very best to make every encounter as pleasant as you hope it will be but apart from the reviews I really believe most of the Ladies who have a long list of good reviews would behave just as consciencely when dealing with their clients if there was no such place as TER...they are professionals and proud of it

You have to remember not all providers are like this...some don't care about reviews...some will do as little as they can get away with and still take your money...if that means stealing...so be it

For these women the only thing you can do is make it unprofitable for them to steal from you and that's why I don't condemn the OP in this thread for what he did

I hope your are not an attorney because if you are you must be a horrible one. It is not even close to rape. She willingly did the act. If anything it is classified as a "theft of services" because he was provided a service and did not pay for it. But being the fact that prostitution is illegal it would be difficult to pursue charges against the individual. Because if she wanted to press charges against him for not paying she would then have to admit that she was a prostitute therefore she would subject herself to the police and the ADA pressing charges on her and on him.

So you had the session, then she stole twenty dollars and you took the entire session fee back? Is that what happened? I am sorry if you got ripped off & I am glad she got caught but why not get just the twenty back and just leave then if the session was already over?

Sara

Reon't pay a robber.

You are forgetting this is not a legitimate business...if you pay for the service and complain to the agency, very likely it will land on deaf ears and the behavior continues.  In this case, the girl is punished and if the agency doesn't accept a reduce fee then they are punished too for supporting their own unethical behavior.  Services were not rendered as promised as you should not be robbed during a session, and the girl was using her "charm" to perpetrate a criminal acts.

Being out a few hundred bucks isn't motivation to stop.  When a cop takes a kids bag of dope from him does the kid suddenly stop smoking dope? No he just is glad he got off that easy and he'll be out buying another bag of dope in no time flat. Same as this girl, she'll be trying to steal from the next guy to get her $300 back. My post is refering more to the possible can of worms he could open towards himself and the potential sleeze bags he could be dealing with.

Let's face it, this guy isn't going to single handedly change her pattern of stealing by taking back the appt fee. The only way to really hurt her business is to make the client base she serves aware of what she does. That way she'll get far less bookings.