WT definitively nailed it. Doing this type of photography is much different that what he described that he does for a living. Many skilled photographers know how to create the illusion and I don't mean photo shopping. It is about lighting and poses, as well as costumes, make up, hair styling. Many providers don't want to show their face or have the photos too provocative. Although some may use a hotel room a fully equipped studio is much more professional.

And yes he is letting the creepy and sleazy part of him out all the way!

Hooray for humanity

I also have services that I offer to the public.  Since providers are people, some of them have used those services.  I make a point of keeping these dealings separate.  There are ladies here that can substantiate this, although I certainly don't expect any of them to do so.

Fucking thank you!

My bro KJ and I went off on this douche in PM.

Trying to justify that 'time was time'. Fucking pisses me off!

Even went so far to say it was hypocritical what we do.

Know the alias won't get flipped, but hoped the lady's knew who it was and his business practice.

Wish I could say the mother-fucker doesn't choke on the wishbone next Thursday!

As usual, you are eminently reasonable and make a sound case.

The posting I saw as being unreasonable -- as surprising as it may be because I truly think VERY highly of her -- was that of Lauren Summerhill. The idea that anyone willing to barter is automatically not a professional is untenable.

I am blessed to be a professional in many fields -- all sorts of degrees, qualifications, licenses, certifications and credits in far-flung areas of expertise. And sometimes, yes, I barter. In fact, some of my skills are available ONLY for barter. Specifically, I accept payment only in gold. As gold is not currency or legal tender, anything I do for gold is bartered. I also, within my network of friends or closer acquaintances, will often barter a skill or product of mine in exchange for a skill or product of theirs. For some of my skills, my prices are so high that in order to make them available to people who otherwise couldn't afford them but are nevertheless deserving, I might work out alternative payments -- such as a cut of future profits or something like that. So I found Ms. Summerhill's assertion beyond ridiculous.

There were some others as well. Those that insisted that barter would always result in a big mess, for example, were predicating that conclusion on what is an unfortunate fact: that people seldom understand and appreciate the work of others as being as valuable as their own. As a result, barter of services particularly can go awry. Most people suspect that professionals who charge a fortune -- mechanics at dealerships for example -- are unjustly gouging them to start with. Whether they are *actually* being unjustly gouged doesn't matter -- that is how they see it. So in an exchange of legal services at $250/hr with a provider charging $250/hr; both parties will likely feel they got the short end of the stick because both would prefer to pay less because they feel they are getting gouged.

But this problem only exists because of people insufficiently valuing the skills and abilities of others relative to their own. It's a lack of valuation of our fellow person.

So those sorts of posts were really the subject of my post more than your own; but let me delve a bit into photography.

I don't consider myself a photographer and I don't usually offer my services as one. However, in the past six months 250k copies of a book containing about a hundred of my photographs (though photography was not the focal point of the book) have been sold. My experience with photography is a bit bizarre in that it started out in the surveillance field a couple of decades ago; but in the intervening time my photography has been featured in a number of books, websites, and magazines. Again, none of these publications were dedicated to photography as an artform. Nevertheless, though in a sense it is incidental, my photography is all over the place and certainly more widely published than that of many (though not all) people who do photoshoots for providers. I do not do sex-photography, but have done just about everything else. So I am pretty familiar with the field.

Given this background, I generally agree with you that skills do not translate well between subjects sans experience. Taking a picture of a peach is very different from a picture of a person, or a dog, or a house. And while there are certain commonalities of underlying principle that apply; some consideration and experience is needed to re-adapt skills to a new subject. Also, the photo editing skills required are radically different and nuances are more important when dealing with human subjects.

That having been said, we do not know, and cannot assume, that simply because this would be his first gig of that sort the results would be sub-standard or unworthy of a full fee. We'd have to see the work to know that. Some people are particularly gifted in this regard and can make switches that would be difficult for others without skipping a beat.

He is already a pro photographer and you are already a pro provider. He isn't used to a certain sort of photography. Pretend I have some sort of fetish -- something you've never done before and have zero experience with doing. (For fun we'll make it ridiculous like I get off by watching women stack wooden nickles with their tongue while standing on their head.)  When I come see you, do you charge me a lower rate because of your inexperience at that particular fetish, or do I pay your normal rate (and perhaps a bit more depending) and you give it your very best effort?

My argument is that since the guy promised her a free session -- that's what he owes her. Free. Even if it is the absolutely most amazing photography on earth and by employing it she becomes an overnight millionaire; he promised it for free and he should deliver on it for free. It was a crazy offer imho. People do NOT value what they get for free. They SHOULD, but they don't. But since he made the offer, he should adhere to it. Asking for barter after the fact is trying to change the deal. It is the equivalent of an upsell.

Outside of that, if he hadn't made such an offer -- look at the other posts I referenced. Barter is not a viable option either because some ladies don't RESPECT anyone who offers barter as a professional (hmmm ... I've bartered with my doctor. LOL) And others basically acknowledge that for services, people do not respect the value of another's time and skill thus leading to conflicts in fair valuation. Thus, I argue that such people should be dealt with for cold hard cash only.

I won't even get into the sexism of the "I only let females photograph me" post. Unfortunately, I am already out of pull-string Barbies with a "Math is hard" message. (*grin*) Some great engineers are women and some of the very best photographers of women are men.

One VERY viable option for this fellow in future attempts is to offer the shoot on contingency. That is, he will do ALL the work and retain ALL the rights. The lady gets to look at the work, and if she accepts it, she pays him and then gains the rights to the work as per usual. Either way, he only accepts cash.

So in summary, I wasn't being critical of you because ... well, there's nothing to criticize. LOL. Our disagreements are minor and cosmetic and we largely agree. My real complaint was with other posters, some of whom surprised me.