TER General Board

A question for the guys.
CumToThinkofIt 5007 reads
posted

I have discovered that a great many things that I use to enjoy are no longer near as important as hobbying. To be quite honest even the hobby has lost some of it's luster due to me becoming more euducated and savvy to the "truths"(are you listening Cynicalman?). The hobby however remains my single major source of enjoyment, entertainment and sadly expense.
   How deeply has the hobby gotten under your skin gentlemen?
Has it replaced anything that you once called your avocation?
Is the thought of giving it up unthinkable?

Am I alone on this?

  CTToI


it has taken center stage. i worry about my attitudes toward civilians as a result. not surprisingly a female friend of mine told me that during a party some weeks ago i seemingly blew off a girl who was apparently flirting with me (frankly i don't even remember)

which means when you KNOW you can rent an Jaguar (or Aston-Martin) by the day, you wouldn't stop in at a Hyundai dealership to sign a 1-year lease on their latest model SUV

but (and here comes the dreaded YMMV part) some men will argue that sex isn't everything so those like me (and far worse) are missing a great deal out of life ... like fly fishing!  LOL

Happily Deluded3952 reads

I am going away with my ATF for a week.  I told her this was the time I was going to pay for her company.  I had to do something to break the cycle.  I saw other providers but never was quite as happy.  For those who have ATF's, I think we all fight with our ATF's and all the other things you would do with a civilian.  We make them out to be these wonderful women and for an hour or two, they are.  But long term, the money is with the civilians.  Most providers at some point or another are going to slow down, retire and become civilians becasue it's a fantasy life.
A very wise soul told me the classic battle between Hobbyist and ATF is this in so many words,
The hobbyist wants it for free to prove the provider cares about him,
The ATF wants to the hobbyist to pay the max to prove how much he really values you.

They say the problem with alcohol and drug abuse is it allows people to ignore a problem in their head and not deal with it.I wonder sometimes if that is what the hobby does for me, allow me to avoid trying to meet some girl at a party knowing with a phone call and some money I can have easy company

my .02 cents

For me, the hobby was first a revelation, then a distraction, but soon became a goal. I am not sure this final stage is healthy ... I don't know one way or the other. Let me tell you my story.

When I first actually completed the act with a provider, I was in my mid-twenties and a hormonally perpetually frustrated young man. Discovering that I could drive to the local stroll, pick on the basis of my own preferences and nothing else, and essentially get what I wanted with very little stress, I began to feel like life was again worth living. I remember screaming and yelling and whooping and high-fiving myself in the car after that first "date", downscale experience though it was. And soon there-after, I began to develop quite a cynical attitude toward your typical "civilian" girl and her machinations. Many men here will know what I'm referring to, so I won't go into it. Suffice it to say, I hadn't really "believed" they were all that manipulative toward me, I just knew it went on, but went on with someone else. (Kind of like venereal disease: "It can't happen to me. It always happens to someone else." LOL) I hadn't actually developed a misogynistic streak before I started getting off with providers, but then I began to have less hormone-induced blindness among civilian potential partners, and started to see through their ploys a lot more. And I got misogynistic damn quick.

But I maintained in my own mind the illusion that, if I worked the system right, I could somehow circumvent the game-playing for my own benefit and (this is the important part) for the benefit of the civilian partner involved. I could "take her away from all that" need for economic support, and social sanction. I was hampered in my quest, partly by being rather desirable -- I'm an attractive man (no self-congratulations, just a little brute fact or so), and at the time I also displayed large earning potential because of the state of my career. So I continued to chase after the hottest of hotties, in civilian life, and didn't get anywhere with them. They were playing some game I didn't even know the rules of. I realize now, they were expecting something other than a simple sexual liason, and that was BECAUSE I was desirable as a long-term committed partner, perhaps husband. The irony, no?

So, as one form of masturbation, I continued with providers. It was all about sexual gratification, which I couldn't get in my regular life. I wasn't hip to the double-reversals of the "game" yet, so providering was just about the only place where normalcy seemed to take place. I still resented the economic outflow, and clearly recognized the trade-off nature of the arrangement -- something negative here, something positive there, unfortunately adds up to a grand total sum of zero. I deluded myself that, if I kept trying harder and harder, some hottie from the civilian universe would eventually take pity upon me.

None did. But I began to learn the game and, little by little, win at it.

I discovered different tactics with the girls, including the "game" of honesty, and found that the thing that got me closest to ready quick fucks with really attractive civilian women, was being a loser and being aggressive. It's true. Nice guys finish last. I quit my graduate program, went into a life of dissolution and dependence on outside unearned income sources, started being bluntly honest with strangers I met in bars -- right down to "Nice shoes, want to fuck?" and found my life looking up. I found a few internet resources on "how to pick up women" and the like, discovered the supportive community of discussion groups about seduction and about hobbying, and started a longterm life change that leads from beta male to alpha male. Or, to put it differently, from responsibility to selfishness. All I had to do was NOT be the guy they wanted to hold hands with, and goodlooking and goodthinking civilian women WOULD want to fuck me.

Sick, yes? I don't think this would necessarily be the case if the people involved in the interaction weren't both expecting something way up in the desirability category -- if I were "settling" for civilians who were mere 7s or 4s physically, or if I myself could limit my aspirations to a "fair match" that would be a teammate BECAUSE she and I were of the same degree of desirability (each gender operating on its own priorities). But I can't. I'm driven (like most of us in the hobby community) to sexing only stunningly attractive women. 10s and 9s. I hate "close interpersonal" interactions with 7s, no matter how "meaningful." I started to see a few benefits to the new lifestyle, and got a few nibbles from civilian hotties.

I haven't quite gotten to where I can consistently pull super-hot women despite their manipulations. And, of course, interactions with women of that sort aren't really fulfilling either. Who wants to land as a girlfriend (or wife!?) some girl who is so misguided in her own life that she only intends to get intimate with a man in order to manipulate him or, as in my (new) case, because she hopes never to see him again? I still hold out (vain?) hope that I'll find some sweet hotties -- or "cause" them to be sweeter than the manipulative bitches I've so far met in my life. I know, bars aren't the most likely places to look ...

Most of the time, though, I think the "game" is hopelessly flawed. Either it's skewed ridiculously in favor of the female in all things except the bedroom (where she "has to put out" just to get her lifetime of economic support) -- and even there, it's not really fair to the male that he must "pay" for the "privilege" of stimulating his fingertips with her clitoris. Or, maybe it's skewed ridiculously in favor of the cynically self-interested, regardless of the gender -- something I've learned to become, and something most women whom I've met who are very very attractive seem to do quite naturally (and unapologetically, more's the annoyance), but something I wouldn't want for myself or my civilian partner. Two cynically self-interested manipulators becoming long-term partners ... hey, sounds like a President and First Lady I know of!

So, now, the hobby is a respite from all the angst-ridden psychological ramblings of a deranged dual personality. Am I a nice guy? Am I a cynic? Will I be ABLE, much less willing, to manipulate little Suzy into the sack? Should I? Does that count as taking life by the reins and driving it where I want, being a man who (like Suzy probably wants) knows what he wants and knows how to get it? Is it HELPING her to realize her potential as a woman? Or does it count as not thinking about other people's needs and just being a damned selfish bastard? I mean, I know I wanted her strictly because she had nice tits!

I don't know where I'm going with this. I haven't resolved anything, and the only real successes I've had are at the first stages of things. My first hobbyings. My first descents into a new city's vice scene. My first civilian seductions. My first visits to strip clubs. My first ... well now, what's next ... :)


-- Modified on 7/15/2003 6:39:27 PM


simple, you write a book about it. a man of such astute literary talent (and expertise in this topic) is depriving a (potentially) large readership of your unique (or perhaps not so unique) experience and hard-earned wisdom, were you to limit it to internet msg boards!

i know people at Doubleday, if that would help. but perhaps you already know many yourself.




I don't presume to think on your level, but your writing is inspiring. So I wanted to share my thoughts.
The hobby is addicting, but it doesn't get much accomplished in life. After years of bliss with the hobby, any of us could wind up with no family, a poor career, and regretting it all.
Creating a life that we can be happy with takes work (and judgment). Manipulators are out there in all forms of life and no one is immune. Creating a life requires developing the judgment to know when to turn away, when to tolerate and when to manipulate back. Learning this judgment is very gratifying. Teaching it to others, especially children, is even more gratifying.
The real gratification in life comes from accomplishments and relationships. The hobby and the civilian game can be a distracting addiction. The hobby can also be controlled and kept in perspective. There are psycho definitions of when a habit is addicting.
I measure others by what they are working to accomplish and how they work. Beautiful women are a GREAT fantacy, but what's between the ears is much more important. (Excuse the lowsy grammar and spelling.) Of course it is only natural that a woman is looking for a good provider for a mate.  Our society creates the shallow distractions of appearances and celebrity, which complicate the natural tendency.
Maybe you are just looking for love in all the wrong places. People who are working hard don't hang out a great deal. Personal ads might lead you to more serious women who don't have the time for social climbing. Of course, with a serious woman, you will have to deal with raising a family, which is one of the hardest jobs around. The strange thing about working with others to accomplish things is that it builds the best and most gratifying relationships.
Please excuse the use of the word 'you' in this message. I'm just to lazy to rewrite it.

CumToThinkofIt4006 reads

Serious is what I was looking for singleton...Thank You.
 Yes this hobby has also had a great effect on how I  view "civilians" I also would agree on why sign on the dotted line for a Hyundai when there is a Jag' with a short term lease just waiting for you.  Then we have to look at that fear of "dying alone"  and start re-evaluating.


-- Modified on 7/15/2003 10:14:34 PM

AnotherView3993 reads

I too noticed the "obsession" about a year ago.  I post here frequently under various aliases ( for some anonimity for the ladies when I say things like here: calling some "high end" and others not, but have been an active lurker for at least 3 years.  

I experienced the increasing high as I got into the hobby and booked the next and the next.  I found ways to make trips out of town so I could hobby.  I prefer long sessions and also not to play close to home (subconcious understanding that if is saw a local I'd get myself in trouble?).  

Two things happened.  I found my "ATF" and fell hard.  She is no longer in the biz thanks to the Florida bust.  I would no sooner get back from a weekend with her than I'd start intensly planning and anticipating the next.  Then, when she became unavailable to me, I started the replacement search.  I literally opened TER to the whole of the US and eventually found myself flying to the East Coast for a dinner date...nothing else, just to see a provider whose reviews I liked and who I thought looked like a potential ATF replacement!

I found that nobody can replace what I've built in my head.  I seem to have started to settle for exploring the kinky side and am not sure why.  I guess I'm looking around to see just what is out there on the edge and I really don't have near as much fun.  The "high end" provider got me hooked and I seem to be avoiding a return to that multi $ GFE infavor of...what?

The last two providers have call me after the date wanting to get together again.  One even suggested that she come to my place of work.  That is way too disconcerting.  Yet I didn't say no, I just didn't respond.  What am I headed for?

Who are they?....and what do they do....

They are those soft,sexy,mysterious,gorgeous,sultry women whom satisfy our erotic fantasies and sexual needs for 1,2,3,or even 24 hours(maybe longer)and then us hobbyist go back to REALITY.
Reality is defined differently for everone of us...and therein lies one's possible answer for obsession to this hobby.
I guess that's why there are shrinks in this world to figure out why one steps beyond that harried threshold into obsessive behavior....and if it gets too hard on anyone where it affects reality and creates tremendous personal anguish... by all means seek professional help.
In closing...leave the gun...take the cannoli!
...Okay...Let's make it three Godfather quotes for a quarter:
I can't WAIT to see my next provider...and just luv it when she "makes me an offer I can't refuse".
Cheers!

Rustproof3942 reads

As long as you keep it in perspective, you'll survive

Sales, youve got the money they want it. The good ones will say what you want to hear (many could be politicians) or (Hillary could be a topnotch pro) and know when to say it.

Listening, yes they can listen also and also know when to answer or offer advice. Much like a real barber.

Customer Service, this is the one that separates them, the ones that really have talent keep you coming back no matter if you want to or not, they get under your skin and throw you away when theyre sick of you.

So as long as you know that _all_ they are after is your money, you will survive.

Spending time with a wonderful women, dating, dining, talking, and having off the charts sex is the most enjoyable thing I ever do with my spare time, and I would say at this point, I am truly addicted to it.

The things I used to do in my spare time pale in comparison now, and, frankly, bore me.  And to the person who said none of the women really care about their dates, and it's all about the money, I don't agree.  I refuse to be that cynical.  With some, certainly that's true, but, I've had a handful of experiences that suggest otherwise.

Be REALLY good to the girls, and hobby on my friends,

Jacksonlips

nj23672 reads

I have thought about this as well. I'm single and no GF and a very busy person, which is why I got into this hobby. It satisfies my immediate needs for companionship with a single phone call. No worrying about relationships, picking somebody up, and that whole thing you go through with civilians. Too much hassle. This was the perfect solution.

Now I'm beginning to wonder--will I ever be able to give this up? When I settle down with a wife, will I ever see a provider? I sure hope I don't. I'm sorry but I don't want to be married with kids and doing this. I think it's a "loser" thing to do. I'm not saying I'm better than the married folks on this board, but that's just my opinion.

Q:   I have discovered that a great many things that I use to enjoy are no longer near as important as hobbying. To be quite honest even the hobby has lost some of it's luster due to me becoming more euducated and savvy to the "truths"(are you listening Cynicalman?). The hobby however remains my single major source of enjoyment, entertainment and sadly expense.
  How deeply has the hobby gotten under your skin gentlemen?
Has it replaced anything that you once called your avocation?
Is the thought of giving it up unthinkable?

You are not alone! I've only had one "real" experience with a provider and one RIP-OFF, and so far all I can think of is trying every provider with a positive review! I'm sure I'm still experiencing the provider "high" if you will, but will it get better or worst with the more providers I see? I'm willing to bet on the latter! I've never been a big fan of the whole club and bar scene, and being in my mid-twenties, that scene is what all of my friends are into, now I have this mentality of "why put up with all of this superficial bullshit" with girls who are more concerned about what kind of car the vallet brings you than who you really are (not all girls of course). I guess all we can do is hope that miss right is out there and that we will be lucky enough to meet her someday, in the meantime why not keep ourselves in good practice until the time comes! Just as long as you budget accordingly! (something I'm going to definitely have to learn!

-Taciturn


dude, unless you look like Andy Dick or Drew Carey you should be swimming with civilian babes. i'm in this cuz i'm a krusty kinda guy in my late-30s with too much going on work-wise to play with civilians. you guys in your 20s shouldn't have to restrict yourself to providers. i dunno, just doesn't seem right.

but then again, i did start around the same age. only to find the tentacles of civilian relationships tighten their mortal grip around my neck and start to sap my precious "essence" once again!

POE OEP EOP PEO OPE EOP

--

right "T"?  LOL


-Singleton

Andy Dick or Drew Carey huh...(lol) actually people say I look like the guy who played the lead role in La Bamba(Lou Diamond Phillips I think is his name) Not to toot my own horn, but I'm not trying out providers because of my inability to get laid by "civilian" babes...it has more to do with my intolerance of the games and other B.S. that comes along with them!

P.S. I seriously hope you don't consider your 30's the begining of the "krusty" stage as you so eloquently put it!

-Tac

"you guys in your 20s shouldn't have to restrict yourself to providers. i dunno, just doesn't seem right."

Sure, but it takes place. Everyone who isn't getting any thinks that his own circumstances bear some degree of relation to why he isn't getting any, and that people in different circumstances probably have it better off. But any given circumstance can be perceived as detrimental.

Young mid-20s males have to deal with mid-20s females, who are the worst manipulators of the lot, for example. So, he "should be" swimming in civilian partners, but, like me when I was his age, he isn't. Maybe it's because he's a nice guy. Maybe it's because he's troll-ugly. Maybe it's because he ain't got two nickels to rub together. Maybe it's because he's "krusty," like you say you are. Maybe it's because he's overweight, underweight, too charming, not charming enough, playing softball instead of football, unathletic, into computers instead of stocks, into stocks instead of computers, you name it ... women have a billion excuses for rejecting men, and none of them really make sense. The human female just says "no."

To learn to take confidence from your current status in life, REGARDLESS of what it is, rather than trying to find the status that you think women will approve of more, is a bigger more important lesson. I've been going through this thinking for a long time, and the one thing I can really seriously recommend is that you, mister "krusty," stop believing that you can't get civilian partners simply "because" you're in your thirties and krusty. You really want it, you need to learn how to get it, and then work at it. There are ways ... and the kicker is, NO, they are NOT the ways that women would have you believe would get them swooning. Roses, dates, lobster dinners, nice boxes of chocolates, being the sensitive listener -- reserve all of that for after you've fucked your civilian partner the first time. Before that, she's looking for ways to get out of fucking you, and if she can get what she wants without having to spread her legs, even if she knows that it would be on the basis of crass self-interest and manipulation, she will. So, don't give it away for free, make her buy it. And, gee what a surprise, she'll be happy you did, because, gee what a surprise, women actually like sexuality and sexual men, and they're desperate for an opportunity to stop having to play the girlie-girl games.


"Maybe it's because he's a nice guy. Maybe it's because he's troll-ugly. Maybe it's because he ain't got two nickels to rub together. Maybe it's because he's "krusty," like you say you are. Maybe it's because he's overweight, underweight, too charming, not charming enough, playing softball instead of football, unathletic, into computers instead of stocks, into stocks instead of computers," -- book_guy


NO ... it's most likely because he's a NICE GUY ... like i was (emphasis on was)

end of story ... End Of Message ... E.O.M.  ... EOM

--

T-boy! ... POE or EOM?  LOL




CumToThinkofIt2439 reads

Again this board has responded with sensitive and insightfull answers to help ALL of us on this journey.  I found myself "relating" to items in each and every thread.
I don't feel nearly as alone as I did this Am.

 Thank you

  CTToI

HPG - Mr. Chuckles, do you worry about how much time, money and angst you incur seeing providers and pursuing civilians?

M.C. - I want pussy!

HPG - Do you find yourself wanting to spend more time with providers than civilians.

M.C. - I want pussy!

HPG - Have you ever tried to get a freebie from a provider or played mind games with a civilian; or do you find that you are becoming obsessed with hobbying versus trying to "date?"

M.C. - Pussy, pussy, pussy

HPG - Have you ever felt like you cannot control yourself and have spent money on hobbying or dating when you should have been investing, paying bills or something else constructive to better your financial state?

M.C. - What part of pussy don't you understand?

HPG - OK look, I'm asking some serious questions here and you're just repeating the same thing over and over again. Surely you have room in your mind for other things?

M.C. - Listen you monkey! I'm a dick, that's it, get it! All I want is to press into as much pussy as I can get, and as often as I can get it. GET IT?

I don't have a brain, I don't have credit cards, relationships, conversations, soulmates or significant others. My world is pussy, pussy, pussy. That's it, that's all I want, that's all I crave, and I get it as often as I can. If that means driving you insane with lust, desire or a need to feel like you're romantic, then so be it.

You just don't get it do you? What a putz! I have one goal in life, and that is to dive in and pound away. You're the one with the brain, you're the one with the degree, you're the one with opposable thumbs (which I might add could use some hand lotion and a little more finesse)and you're the one in control of your life.

Don't try to put this off on me Buckeroo! You think you're so smart, but the first short skirt you see and SPROING, look who's in charge. Honestly, you're pathetic. You run your business, your family, your finances and to the world you seem like you're in control. Truth of the matter is, I'm a convenient excuse for falling out of control. I've heard it all, the little head controls the big head, she was a vision of loveliness, I just couldn't resist her charm. Ya da ya da ya da!

I know what I want, pussy plain and simple.

Question is son, what the hell do you want?

HPG - Thanks Mr. Chuckles for that enlightening interview!

M.C. - Blow it out your ass, are we gonna get some action tonight or what??


short for: Buckminster Singelton (the little)

Rick7772917 reads

I have been bit by the bug also.  I started the hobby a few months ago.  I was entoxicated by the experience and have spent a lot of money that I should not have on the hobby.  But sanity has returned.  I now see a low cost provider who I won't fall in love with.  Can I find prettier? Yes, but I wanted one that was pretty enough but not to much.  Someone who would appreciate me and enjoy our realtionship.  She takes care of me.  On the flip side I am now ready for civilian women.  I can date and if I meet someone nice great.  But I always have my backup.  All things in moderation.  Try seeing someone that is not addictive to you.

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