Wow, some old geezers just aren't as krafty as they think they are.

 
Add this incident to the long list of reasons to never use a store-front AMP.

 
I'm guessing a 40/40 massage/happy ending is gonna end up costing at least $500k.

...and never will.

Or was it because he was recognizable?, which makes it even stupider.

I tried to post a link to a news article containing a link to the affidavit itself, but TER admin wouldn't allow it. I found it on a sports website called Ringer. Anyone interested in reading the details of how this case developed can do a web search on the name of that site + the name of the billionaire. And I'm sure other sites have picked up the same info by now.

I posted info earlier on how to find/read the details of how the case developed (assuming admin allowed that post).  With video inside/outside, easy enough to run the tags of arriving vehicles, get names of registered owners, and match to DL photos. The individuals seen outside would then be easily matched to those clients receiving "extra" services inside the rooms, which were also under surveillance.

They gave them their real images on the undercover video tapes.
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This was the result of a 6 month LE operation. At last 10 spas were under surveillance and the places were bugged. The news reports that LE claims to have video evidence of the alleged interactions. At least 172 clients have been arrested, or charged or soon to be charged. At least two of them are billionaires (a 77 year old $6.6B and a 77 yo $1.2B).  
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What are these poor old billionaires supposed to do, hang out at the noisy clubs and bars and try to pick up girls?
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LE is also claiming that girls were trafficked.  10 (or more?) spas x 6 months and the news reports said 4 trafficked girls were rescued. I don't know how things work in FL, but there must have been way more than 4 girls working at 10 spas during that time.  
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The news described girls living at the spas and not allowed to leave.  I don't know FL, but in other places, girls sign up for shifts at the AMPs and do, in fact, live there for 4-7 days. Then they take their earnings and go clubbing and shopping.  
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I also don'r know about LE obligations during these operations. If they thought it was a regular prostitution ring with consenting adults, they could sit back and gather evidence until letting the hammer down. If they truly thought that there was non-consensual sex trafficking, are they allowed to observe the trafficking victims for 6 months before taking action? Was this a Trumped up emergency? "It was an emergency to rescue trafficked sex workers ... but we waited 6 months to rescue them."
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(See my posts on P&R, too.)

fight the charge in open court.  
But that’s not likely to happen as they’ll be offered a chance for the charges to be dropped if they take a sex-ed class and pay a fine.  

Has there been any talk of charges against the AMP owner/manager?

-- Modified on 2/23/2019 10:06:36 PM

Old billionaires don't have to go clubbing to pick up girls, they just have to go to a sugar babe site and pick from the cornucopia of pussy on display.  Most sugar babes would jump at one or two grand a month for one or twice weekly behind closed doors. And it is all legal, especially if it is a monthly stipend and not a pay per session.

Blackmail, being outed if others catch wind, and that most virulent and pernicious evil of them all:

Falling in love.   (And believe me, I know what I'm talking about.  8o)

So, there's no 100% safe to go about this, and ironically those with the most money often end up with the biggest problems, thus leading to that age old saying?  Ain't life a bitch?

I wonder if some of the clients (at least 172; some accounts say over 200) caught up in this operation were accustomed to meeting providers the old way, by which I mean, pre-FOSTA-SESTA: TER reviews, verification sites, web sites or ad malls (some of them vetted).  No longer able to locate and meet established independent professionals, they ended up in a strip mall spa with no way of knowing that there were allegations of trafficking.
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Let me make some simplistic whining: LEGALIZE! or DECRIMINALIZE!  
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I could throw in regulate and tax, too.
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There is a reason why this is the world's oldest profession. You can't legislate it out of the gene pool. You can't medicate it out of normal human behavior. (Well, I guess you can, but it is rather extreme meds with harmful side effects.) There are many participants on both sides (clients and providers) who would be happy to be able to conduct their business privately, safely, productively and enjoyably.  
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It is the puritanical hypocrites who are creating situations that make it lucrative enough for real traffickers to prosper. Huge amounts of TIME and MONEY are wasted on these extensive LE investigations while more serious crime is ignored.  
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How many televangelists and Bible beaters have been caught up in sex scandals over the years? MANY! How many politicians have been caught up in sex scandals over the years? MANY! How many business leaders and celebs (Weinberg, Ailes, Lauer, O'Reilly, ...) have been caught up in sex scandals in the past few years? MANY! Legalization or decriminalization would put the real traffickers out of business for good.  
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EDIT: typos

-- Modified on 2/24/2019 10:02:47 AM

Net Worth more than $4 Billion
Have a chauffeur take you to seek “stress relief”
Go to a public massage parlor
Pay $79 or so dollars for the “massage”
WTF??
I know at least 3 ladies (huge Patriot fans) that would have gladly provided “stress relief”  for free or maybe a game ticket or jersey and they would sign an NDA.
Now the more entertaining question would be what would I/you do for “stress relief” if we had $4 Billion!
I would buy a “stress relief” island and permenantly employ a wide range of “stress relief” experts and you would never hear from me again.
Damn

Whether there is or not is another matter but in the news stories I read, few victims are actually rescued and few people are charged with trafficking.

that the majority of civilized countries do allow legal sex work in one way or another without any major social problems attendant, indeed, legalization would solve many of the problems.

But who has ever heard of logic in this day and age?

As mrfisher implied in his post, above, these billionaires can just hop a flight to any of many other safe, friendly, foreign countries where consenting adults may legally conduct personal business of this sort without threat of LE ruining their lives. They can even make it a multi-purpose excursion and include business meetings and vacation time as well as R&R.  
"So long, folks. I'm off to scout talent in Europe for a couple of weeks. ... What? Oh, yeah, thanks for reminding me. Soccer players, too."  
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Canada has some weird rules regarding advertising and who may approach whom to inquire or offer services, but I hope that someone can clarify that here or on another board.

prostitution is legal, but solicitation is illegal.  Like many countries, they want to avoid coercion and they want to keep all of this hidden from public view.  They don't care what two consenting adults do.  

This entire episode is a great example of the difference between being rich and famous versus being merely rich. A wealthy man can indulge in almost any luxury this world has to offer, but a man who is rich and famous has to be much more careful because there is a big payoff in exposing him. If you could earn $50K to $1MM from the National Enquirer for information about someone acting scandalously, then there is a price on your head every time you unzip your pants (unless it's with your wife).  

Think of Donald Sterling, the former L.A. Clippers owner, whose girlfriend recorded him making racist statements and then sold the tapes to TMZ. Sterling was forced to sell his team.  

Think of Gary Hart, who was literally leading in the polls for the Democratic nomination for President of the United States in '84 when a picture of Donna Rice sitting on his lap destroyed his campaign (and his career).  

Being rich and famous means that pussy grows on trees for you, but once you have something to lose, that pussy will frequently try to take it away from you.  

Much better to be rich and anonymous!

The other day I went to a MP here in L.A. after not being able to connect with any of my cheap apt. girls. It was past 9 PM.
Anyways $40 entrance and $100 for the girls is too much for me. That's the reason I'm not a fan of them. Not because I'm afraid. But what are the dangers? What can they get from me?

Excepting minor differences (or mistakes or typos) in many news accounts, LE has IDed 173 (or more) clients ranging in age from 20s to 84. I have only seen the names of three famous clients (all very wealthy) in the news stories.  
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You might not be famous enough to earn a headline or TV coverage, but I'm sure your boss, your family, your friends, and others will be happy to pile on once your name shows in tiny 8 pt type in a long list of clients on an inside page of a gossip column.  
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LEGALIZE NOW!

will be famous now, at least with their friends, families, neighbors and co-workers.  Lol

Actually this is just more proof that in this country, with things so biased in favor of the wealthy/big business, it is possible to become obscenely rich while also being an idiot. As someone who for a time used to work part-time at CVS, I already knew this -- I could tell of stupidity and wastefulness of a degree most brainwashed (by the "American Dream" myth) people wouldn't believe. For example, it literally took them years to fix a bug that put ridiculous unit prices on many sale signs -- like 99001.99/each or -445.-45/ounce. Years to write a program that can divide two number correctly! And that's just one example of many.

Something is dirty here. Lets go "Back to the future" 1984. "Gull wing"  hotshot John DeLorean  was acquitted of all drug charges using  entrapment for his defense. A not so lucky victim in the early 80`s was then Camden Mayor Angelo Errichetti who among others was set up and busted in the notorious Abscam stings. I can easily relate this to the Kraft et al  set up. Sure does smell fishy doesn`t it?
I haven`t been over here in  quite sometime and it sure feels good to reply to a good post like before.

Not that I like what happened, but I disagree with the comparison. The DeLorean and Erichetti cases involved willing participants (DeLorean, Erichetti) and LE setting up and playing roles in a scheme to gather enough evidence and gain a conviction. In the FL sting, LE appear to be uninvolved outside observers only. They got warrants and installed surveillance equipment. They didn't do anything to promote or encourage anyone to specific actions.  
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IMO, the LE malpractice was allowing all of these girls they believed to be trafficked to continue to be exploited for 6 months without rescuing them right away. IF LE truly thought that the girls were victims, then I think that there are many historical comparisons to be made. My conclusion: LE didn't truly believe that this was a trafficking case but that it was a prostitution case.

But if you have no friends or the friends you have don't care or never find out because they don't read the papers or anything. You have no close family members or they don't care either or unlikely to find out. You don't really know who your neighbors are. Maybe just some of the ones living in front or on the side of you and you might say hello once in a while. If you always changing jobs or you're unemployed or work delivering pizza or something.

I really don't care if I were caught. Unless they give me a ticket or something. Even if the faces of the "criminals" were posted on a billboard. It's all an induced shame. I would induce myself to feel proud.  

When I was a kid, a brother of my mom's friend and friend of all of us, got caught with a sw girl. Not much was made of it. What I remember the most is my mom saying something like, "well, isn't he a man?''  
But still I feel MP's are too expensive.

Which is based on the belief that those who pay for sex are by definition oppressing those who sell it.  So, the providers are more or less safe, at least from LE, but the hobbyists are still considered criminals.

More like the Marxist model, "work is exploitation."

Sure arrests have been made but reports show authorities are walking back calling this a huge trafficking bust. A lot of the cops were blowing a lot of hot air that just hasn't panned out.  SMH...

Popped in after not logging in in a long time.  

Steph XO

We always can use some fresh air.  

What galls me the most about this affair is the pecksniffery (took 5 tries before auto correct would let that stand) that is coming out of this sordid mess.  
End demand, yeah right. Look out, I think they’re going to start adding saltpeter to the water supply.  
Oh why, oh why did Bob Kraft have to be such a fucking cheapskate

Mr. Chairman, ... Mr. Chairman, I would like to comment on statements made by my honorable colleague, mrfisher ... Sorry, I've been watching too many recaps of the Cohen testimony.
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You can not legislate nor medicate away the powerful driving forces in our DNA that established prostitution as the world's oldest profession and maintain it today and will sustain it into the future.
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I am thinking that the exposure that BK's involvement brings to this may be a GOOD thing and that it is not his fault.  The undercover LE investigation goes back to at least October 2018 which means that they were probably investigating complaints prior to that in order to get the court orders. The two dates of BK's reported visits were in January 2019.  So the investigation is not BK's fault.  He was just caught up in it in Jan 2019.
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Then, I speculated that BK and perhaps even many others among the 172+ might have previously availed themselves of mutually (provider and client) safer arrangements by using TER, verification services, trusted websites (personal websites or trusted advertising venues (not BP or CL (voluntarily shut down years ago) or similar sites), and so on. When the safer, trusted options have basically been destroyed by FOSTA SESTA interdiction, all that's left for many are random opportunities that present themselves while driving down the street (actual street walkers; roadside spas; etc.) that are risky for many reasons: personal safety, health safety, and so on. (Studies have shown that it is now less safe for providers in San Francisco. Aid groups now complain that it is now MORE difficult to track REAL trafficking as purveyors have abandoned BP for murkier venues.)
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From various reports, I don't think that BK has too much exposure to legal consequences: unlawful warrants and surveillance may nullify that evidence; he was a PASSENGER in the car that was pulled over without cause but LE asked the passenger (BK) for ID - not a legal stop or ID request. In the worst case, it's a first time misdemeanor offense, he can agree to community service, take a class, ... and get the charges totally dropped.  
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Right now, I think that BK's biggest problem is that the NFL that can penalize him far beyond the law. Even if he fought and won the LE charges, the NFL can nail him bigly for tarnishing their angelic, pristine image.  
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Except for the NFL problem vastly overshadowing the LE problem, I would have hoped that BK and the other billionaires would use this opportunity to challenge existing laws regarding sexual relations between consenting adults and bring about meaningful, sensible change.  
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The "cheapskate" aspect of my esteemed colleague's comment hails back to my wonderment that they (the rich guys) couldn't just hop a flight to any of many other safe, US friendly countries where adults can conduct consensual private business that is mutually beneficial and harms no others and do not have to worry about interference by LE.  
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BK: I'm off to Europe for 2 weeks to scout the talent! Hold down the office while I'm away.
Underling: Good idea, BK! The Pats can use a back up kicker. And the Revolution can use a striker and a sweeper.  
BK: Oh, yeah! Good idea! I guess I'll scout the soccer talent, too.  
 
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EDIT: Typos

-- Modified on 3/2/2019 1:10:11 PM

I read the affidavit again and what jumps out at me is how easy it was to classify this as a "trafficking" investigation. I only saw two (flimsy) items mentioned in support. First, the Jupiter, FL detective mentions that he was told by a nearby LE agency that THEY were investigating trafficking in THEIR jurisdiction and wanted to give a heads-up that a similar business was located in Jupiter. Second, the business inspector noted sleeping areas inside the spa, as well as storage for clothes and other indications that some women were living in the business.

Trafficking, as I understand how it works, needs to involve some degree of force, or intimidation, or use of minors who can't legally give consent. Even if real trafficking was happening nearby, there's no justification for leaping to the conclusion that a "similar" business must also be engaged in trafficking. And what constitutes a similar business? Any massage establishment owned or operated by Asians? What about non-Asian places, eh? How racist is that! About living in the spa, that's certainly a code violation, but trafficking? How many Asian women on the East Coast travel from their homes, in places like NYC, to work in these spas? Since their goal is to make and save as much money as possible, it's understandable if they stay in the spa, or with the spa manager, to avoid having to rent an apt or hotel room. But the most important point is that that's a completely rational explanation which involves no force or intimidation whatsoever. My favorite, and totally legit, AMP has an area where therapists can sleep when things are slow.

The bottom-line is that all LEO currently needs to do is label something as Trafficking and they pretty much have a blank check to do whatever they want. Any AMP, even legit ones, could be targeted. Asian crapshoot places, agencies, and arrangements where several women work together from the same apt are all fair game.

And, as the Jupiter incident shows, trafficking may end up not being proven, or even charged. But lives will be ruined just the same because nobody; not judges, and certainly not politicians, wants to be seen as being on the "wrong" side of this issue

as they have to often pull double shifts.  Even larger airliners have tiny cubicles for pilots and attendants to catch sleep on those 15 hours flights to Asia or other far-flung areas.

So, if that is going to be the definition of trafficking, then why not go after them as well?

Oh, I get it, it's the sex thing, right?

Cotton Mather, here we go.

I wonder if I can make a case for being trafficked too? lol

 
Well meaning, but STUPID (and racist) white people seem to think that no one would willingly sleep on a mat or a massage table if they weren't being forced to, or that sleeping six or eight women to a room is some kind of hardship and is proof of sex slavery. I still remember one of my first AMP gf's, she had a very nice apartment about twenty minutes from work, but she still slept at the spa most nights because she worked such long hours and she got at least an extra hour of sleep each night by sleeping at the spa. Ironically she didn't have either a couch or a bed at her apartment until her and I started dating because SHE had no use for either. She only furnished her apartment by western standards for my benefit after we had been dating a few months.  

 
What's even more ironic, most of these so called "sex slaves" sleeping at the spas at night are making a LOT more than these interns and residents you speak of, and they work shorter shifts too. lol

We can call it the Trafficked AMP gal experience.

The US govt provides incentives for trafficking victims to cooperate with LE. U and T visas can lead to green cards and citizenship. While that may be an admirable program for true trafficking victims it also provides a perverse incentive for women who were working voluntarily to claim intimidation once their spa/operation has been busted. It also gives LE a carrot to dangle (Certification of Helpfulness) in exchange for evidence/ testimony against owners/managers. Since intimidation is highly subjective, if workers say they "felt pressured or coerced" it'd be hard to prove otherwise. Again, there doesn't seem to be any requirement for actual trafficking to be proven or charged, which means this tool can be used (or misused) pretty much at LE's discretion. And it's not much of a stretch to see how this could be used against agencies, apartment-based operations, etc. As the Jupiter incident demonstrates, trafficking investigations are easily initiated and cast a wide net. Privacy-intrusive investigative methods, such as surveillance, traffic stops for the flimsiest (or non-existent) reasons, also put clients at risk, especially if their info has been recorded and saved by the operation. None of the 170+ clients in FL are being charged with trafficking, but their lives will still be hugely impacted and perhaps ruined for some.

I knew someone who was trafficked from place to place on a daily basis, sometimes to places 300 or more miles apart. They usually had to sleep in a little cubby space behind their actual work area. Although they were not technically a prisoner, if they wanted to go out to eat or to sleep someplace outside of their work place or sleeping cubby, they had to pay for everything out of their own pocket. Despite those working conditions, they always returned to work a few hours later. I guess it was voluntary servitude.
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And they had to pay for their own diesel out of their earnings.

You say "how this COULD be used" against agencies etc.

 
I have direct experience in how it's already been used time after time where there wasn't even a hint of trafficking.  Aside from that I agree with you completely.

As I'm more of an indie vs agency guy, I absolutely defer to your personal experience. History has repeatedly demonstrated how LE tends to take tools/authorities given for legitimate reasons and push them to the extreme edge of the envelope (and beyond) unless/until curtailed by the courts or public outrage. One prime example of this is asset forfeiture. By labeling things as trafficking that used to be garden-variety violations (mainly misdemeanors) LE has been given license to use a shotgun to take out a flea. And, as your experiences shows, it's already happening more often than is reflected in the news headlines. One other noteworthy consideration is this - while LE's tendencies are nothing new, what is new is the technological capability to do more, and be more intrusive, than ever before. A government that can monitor and data-mine nearly everything is a government that can also control nearly everything. The only thing standing in the way is the informed citizen.

are by local and state LE, not Federal (unless its a multi-state agency as was a recent Thai agency with locations in both SoCal and Minnesota.  Excluding these few instances where the feds are involved, local LE's standard procedure is to bust an agency, and THEN see if there is evidence to support their claim of trafficking that they made in the application to the court for the warrant.  (Not unlike the rhetoric of some in the Washington establishment where they CONCLUDE there is a crime by someone and then go fishing to see if there is evidence to support that conclusion.)  

 
Once they have busted the place and find there are zero girls being trafficked and that the girls can come and go as they please, they have considerable egg on their faces.  Plan B is to then convince some of the girls to give them a statement that they were being forced to work by the org owners, this in exchange for their own CATCH AND RELEASE.  No reporting to immigration, and no charges on the girl's record.  Of course, the girl's are told they must testify at the trial of the org owners if said owners don't agree to plead out, but the vast majority of girls just go work in another state under a new name and LE doesn't have the resources to worry about extraditing mere "witnesses" for a pimping trial.  After the Seattle bust of January 2015, the girls involved scattered to many other states and none have ever been arrested or convicted for their participation.  Meanwhile, LE keeps selling the fiction through the news media that they busted a trafficking operation and saved many young women from a life of sexual slavery.  Complete bullshit!!!   What they really did was prevent some young female entrepreneurs from covering the rent on their upscale Ktown apartments for a few months.  lol

I wondered how LE was able to plant cameras in the massage parlor. It turns out the police told the amp there was a bomb threat. They to had leave the building, while LE search it to protect their safety. so is that an ethical way to carry out a search warrant?

END OF MESSAGE

whether LE duped the people in the MP while they conducted their "investigation", but rather whether they had a warrant to place the cameras in the first place.  If not then there's a chance the evidence will be tossed out.  Of course that doesn't help people whose reputations and careers are down the tubes.   I think that's really what LE wants in the first place, that is, that people will be so afraid to go to AMPS, that their business will suffer.  Time will tell if that is the case or not.

LE is allowed to lie as much as they want, which is the only way that they can conduct undercover operations.

In any case, once this information gets out, it will lead to other not wanting to cooperate with LE in the event of a real terrorist situation.   That is not such a good thing, and is another piece of rotten fruit from this whole SESTA tree.

And here's another issue that MIGHT come up regarding the legitimacy of the surveillance. LE has been peeping in on the massage sessions for 6 months. There were 10 spas under surveillance. The spas are open 7 days per week. I'll estimate 2 tables (maybe more?) per spa.  How many customers per table per day? I'll go with 5 per table or 10 customers total per day, which I think is low. (Some estimate that each masseuse has to see 10 customers per day to make a profit. 2 tables x 10 customers each = 20 customers or more per day.)
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But I'll just run with those numbers
6 months x 30 days/mo x 10 spas x 2 tables x 5 customers per table per day =  
180 x 10 x 2 x 5 = 1800 x 2 x 5 = 3600 x 5 = 18,000 massage transactions, total.  
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Some customers are probably repeat customers or regulars. (BK went twice in two days and once before the AFC championship game but zero for most of the other days = once every 2 months.)  The next question is, 18,000 massage transactions represents how many unique customers? I'll say that EVERY customer is a regular and visits twice per month. 18,000 massage transactions is now 9000 unique customers.  ("EVERY customer is a regular" must be high. "...every 2 weeks" might be low for hardcore regulars who go once per week or more often. These are just estimates.)  
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LE has evidence to pursue 173 (or thereabouts) unique customers. That leaves around (9000 - 173 = 8827) unique customers who were being recorded without their knowledge and for no legitimate purpose and a HUGE presumption of guilt ("EVERY customer is looking for more than a massage").  
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173 / 9000 = 1.9 percent of the customers were ultimately named by LE for charging purposes.  The remaining 8800 were being recorded for shits and giggles?  When I use an ATM, I am being recorded. I don't like it but I'm OK with it. Walking through the mall or supermarket or just down the street (and in the elevator - don't "do it" in the elevator!!), I am on thousands of videorecorders.  But I've got my clothes on and I am "dressed for the occasion." I am probably being recorded while trying on shoes at the shoe store. I don't care if the camera sees my almost naked feet. But I think I have the right to expect some privacy in the bathroom, locker room, hotel room, etc.. Unless I sign a waiver of some sort (e.g., a 2257 release) I also expect some privacy in a massage room when I am down to my skivvies, gut hanging out, and trying to feel relaxed, not under surveillance.  
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I wonder how that point will play out in the legalities?  I can almost see someone charged demanding access to all of the footage to see if they can find evidence of selective arrests. ("Client 6666 is the Mayor. Her hand is pretty close to you know what. How come you didn't arrest him? Oh! Client 2468 is Father Smith from the local parish. You can hear him praying "Oh my god! Oh my god!" but you didn't arrest him, either.")

How many times does that trick work? There were 10 spas under surveillance. They don't talk to each other? ... about the mysterious series of bomb threats, once to each place and never at the same time of day or on the same day? I guess it's more credible than "lead paint inspector" or "gas company, checking for leaks."

I've come to check the knobs on your chest.

 
But it hasn't worked since the 4th grade.  8o)~

According to this account of the investigation  
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2019/03/08/how-massage-parlors-sex-trafficking-case-florida-solved/3048361002/
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"Three detectives – one of which was always a female officer – constantly monitored the screens during the spas’ business hours, from 9 a.m. to about 11 p.m., he said. They clicked off the monitors if a female client entered the massage rooms, focusing solely on male clients, who are more likely to engage in prostitution, Snyder said."
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I think that Lopaw could tell them a thing or two about female clients, such as, "There are female clients!" Another one of the things Lopaw could probably tell them is that many times, a masseuse will say "No" if she isn't comfortable with something.  (There are probably fewer "No"s when accommodating male clients because hetero sex is more mainstream and almost everyone knows how to do it.  F-F extras are not known to all masseuses.)  

Of course, like Andy Warhol said "Everybody gets 15 mins etc. etc.

I thought it was $70 for 30 mins. You can leave after 15 mins if you want, but you still pay the full $70.  
No Andy Warhol Discount at the spa!

Lol! I guess LE's naiveté and stupidity works well in favor of us lady mongers!  
But to their credit they did say "more likely" rather than "exclusively".

Need to see more details but it doesn't seem like this is a slam-dunk ruling against LEO. If future warrants successfully address the issues raised by the judge then maybe they'll be allowed, at least in Florida. On the bright side (pun intended) there's an interesting part in the article discussing the effect of turning off the room lights.