I have been a hobbyist now off and on for about 5 years and I have a question that poses a direct quesiton of morality and faith.  Im not speaking of religious faith, but of marital faith.  I have been married for two years and I have have a great marriage.  Yet when I get bored of my wife at home (as many have found out before me, after marriage, sex goes down the tubes in quality and quanitity, except for anniversaries and birthdays), I indulge myself in a provider or two every now and then.  As a result, I have kept myself satisfied in this marriage and the marriage is going strong two years in the running.

The first time that I saw a provider after I got married was a horrible experience.  The experieicne duruing the encounter was great, but afterwards is where it suffered.  The guilt was so great that I went to a catholic priest to confess and I vowed to never do it again.  Six months later, I was back at it again.  You see, what I came to realize after this second encounter was that seeing the provider made me feel refreshed and it improved my sex life at home.  I have been doing this ever since and now I pose the big morality question (which isnt as easy to answer as it may appear on the surface

Weighing the pros and cons of seeing providers within a marriage provides the usual grounds for argument :  The major pro, prolonged happiness and satisfaction at home and an improved sex life at home.  The major con :  The unwaivering guilt afterwards that gets less and less every time.  

Another question is, is it cheating if the cheating is physical with no emotinal strings attatched?  Because really, I have put some thought into this.   I would not mind it if my wife did the same thing I was doing (or would I?) as long as she remained happy with me and her encounters were not emotional.  My encounters with providers are richley physical gratifying encounters that satisfy my animalistic urges only.  

What do you guys think about this issue.  I am new to the website, but not new to the game and I just thought that i would immerse myself in it with this posting.

The short answer is that what is, and isn't, "cheating" is purely defined by the agreement(s) between the two people involved in the marriage.  Most people seem to feel that any physical sexual contact outside of the marriage is wrong.  Some feel otherwise, but it's not a question where an outsider's opinion really matters, now is it?

Personally, I believe the vast majority of vows of fidelity are doomed from the start, and only serve to hurt all the individuals involved.  Sex (or even love) is -not- a zero-sum game, you don't have a set amount of it to share, and sharing with one does not, in and of itself, take away from what is shared with another.  

However, I'm a big believer in being up front about it...my ex was familiar with my stance when we got married, although she wasn't thrilled with the idea.  I do believe her view changed when -she- was the first one to go outside the marriage bed, and was able to do so knowing that she wasn't going to have to sneak around or try to lie about it.

if there are no emotional ties? Not much question, you are definitely cheating on your wife. On the other hand, sex with a provider is a lot less dangerous than having an affair. The emotional involvement of an affair is a lot more likely to destroy your marriage. If you have decided that you can not remain monogamous, an occasional sexual encounter with a provider gives you a much better chance of remaining married.

My friend, you have a lot of company.

I've been happily married over 30 years and am still very sexually active with my wife. I see providers when I am out of state on business, roughly on a once a month basis. I have never felt guilty about it - I accept the fact that I want the sexual variety that this hobby provides. I think it is a much better alternative than "having an affair", in the sense that someone is bound to get hurt in that case (I've never had one, so I can't say for sure.)

Is it cheating if its only physical? I don't know the answer to that one, however, its rarely only physical.

Well morality never is, now is it?

I mean probably most of mainstream America would consider my occupation to be immoral. I do not. I do not suffer any guilt for what I do. I can't see anything immoral about making people happy, giving people pleasure, and making my SELF happy.

You on the other hand, are experiencing mega guilt over this. My question is, are you a masochist? I mean you've already determined that this is an immoral choice FOR YOU, hence your going to Catholic priests and confessing and seeking absolution. You don't need absolution for a moral choice. So if this is an immoral choice for you, why keep doing it? Is guilt a turn on for you???

I'm sorry, it's just illogical.. you've already answered your own question here... and it may be bad business for me to say so, but I really believe we each need to be honest with ourselves and make the choices that are right for each of us. Perhaps you need to look to yourself to solve your problems at home instead of looking elsewhere.

Hugs*
Nicole

You might want to check out a post by "loverofwomen" titled "Oh, ok, I understand the question now" in a thread a few threads down titled "Here's another one that could be a page long".  An excellent read......

Seeing a provider has less risks than having an ongoing affair, but it still has risks. Like all risks in life, you just have to ask yourself if the risk-reward ratio is........worth the risk, to not only your wife and kids (if you have any), but to your own emotional well-being.  

As to your question "Another question is, is it cheating if the cheating is physical with no emotinal strings attatched?"

The only one of ANY importance that can answer that question is your wife......

And the answer may very well lie in your ability or inability to ask her that question.

What % of Hobbyists are married......Post: "Approx. 80%.... I believe. Most single men, unless there is a problem meeting single women, they dislike the "Wine & Dine" thing, they're involved with a demanding career and working long hours, a lack of desire or inability to play the "Game"of the civilian world, or simply choosing variety, will for the most part, do the dating thing, more often than not.  While married men that hobby, are usually those that have either had scary extramarital(sp?)affairs with all the drama and baggage and don't want to risk them again, or they they've come to the point in their lives, where they realize there is so much more to life, than what they have been settling for. Most love their SO and don't want to risk losing that security, but they believe they've earned the right to have it all and by getting their needs met this way, it simply makes them a much nicer guy to be around. In actuality, this hobby, when kept in perspective, can be a great tool. It doesn't have to be a threat to their partner. In many other cultures, the women see this, as a way to liberate themselves, by deligating a chore that they either don't have time for,(due to work, children, etc.) or no longer have the desire for, to someone else, a bit like hiring a housecleaner, or Nanny. Many times, they will suggest a bordello, knowing full well, their husband will return, a much happier man. Sadly our culture, which is fairly young, in comparison to many others, hasn't come that far yet. When one can get past the selfishness of jealousy, we have, IMHO, the "unconditional love" we all crave, NO...? So how can that be wrong..??...."                                                       I believe now more than ever, after reading the posts in this thread, that I understand the reasoning behind this, but I still need to try and understand the apparent(sp?) need to "Beat Yourself Up" over something that provides so much pleasure. Hugs, Robyn        

you sound just like my married friends and the advice i give them all is this: you THINK too much and (despite the re-installed version of Catholic Guilt 2.0) you can overcome your moral/ethical/religious dilemma by just NOT thinking. it's that simple... really it is, trust me!

just be impulsive. after all, if it's not premeditated and totally spontaneous then technically speaking it's not "cheating" -- because that, almost by definition, requires forethought and planning, something which you can be completely free of if you hobby the "right" way (for a married man)

IMHO, when a _MARRIED_ man has finally honed his hobbying "craft" to purr-fection it should come as naturally and spontaneously as ordering a pizza! and similarly it should be devoid of all undue emotion, "love" and rationalization. above all, DO NOT intellectualize the underlying "transaction" (save  that kind of thinking for your wife/girlfriend or other non-providers, all of whom appreciate it more than the pizza-girl!

now to fend off the knee-jerk FLAMERS out there, i must hasten to add that if you are NOT married or in a relationship, then you can afford to play all manner of 'love games', fantasies, pampering the provider, showering her with gifts (treating her better than you would a girlfriend/wife, etc.) but only if it makes you (or you BOTH, but *not* just her alone) feel good.  where it gets prickly is when a married/committed man finds himself taking "liberties" with such games/indulgences. that's usually the start of trouble with a capital T!  ... JMHO

i myself don't suffer from these vexing problems, mainly because i'm a "singleton" and also because i'm an atheist.


PS. i was tempted to end this with a smart-alecky wisecrack like "now go in peace, my son" ... but i wouldn't want to insult your faith. so instead ... my best wishes to you.

I guess I'm confused by your post. It seems like you’re looking for someone to tell you you're not really cheating if you aren't emotionally tied to the women you're screwing outside of your marriage. Beeeeeeep, no  . . . I'm sorry, please play again.

You are cheating, literally and figuratively.

The issues of morality and faith you're opining are only as malleable as you're willing to let them be. In this case it seems to me that if you're getting bored with your wife after two years, your marriage isn't what you represent it to be. The question of faith and morality are subordinated to your boredom in the marriage and your lust.

Be clear that I am not making a value judgment, only observing your post and what I see as the message you are conveying. It seems to me what you’re saying is that your boredom with your wife and your sex-life is already high enough to drive you to find something better after an extremely short period of time being married. It’s like you’ve already decided that you like hobbying and are using the boredom story to justify it.

You also say that your angst about your dalliances outside the marriage was almost unbearable at first, but you go on to say that you expect the guilt to fade as you hobby more and more. Just from that particular assertion I would guess that you have already decided to keep hobbying until your guilt goes away, that is if you genuinely have feelings of guilt. By extension you say you will have prolonged happiness and satisfaction at home, and an improved sex life. Dude, where did you come up with that maxim?

What seems really strange to me is that you’re saying that you expect your sex-life with your wife to improve as a result.

Dude, are you conflicted or what?  Be that as it may, you’re ultimately answerable for your own life, happiness and bear the responsibility for your actions, wise or foolhardy. That’s the beauty of Freedom of Choice.

Best of luck to you and yours,

HPG

Cheating is cheating.  We may have very good reasons or excuses for cheating, but we all know what we're doing when we're doing it.  Some of us don't care, but a lot of us do.  Guilt is one of the consequences of cheating, though some of us feel it more keenly than others.  I know you feel conflicted, but that's just part of the package.  Nothing you can do about it but accept it and try not to dwell on it.  Either that, or give up cheating or trying to kid yourself that you're not "technically" doing it.  

So you're not perfect.  So what?  I'm glad I'm not religious, but for you guys who are, just remember that God will forgive you anyway, so don't sweat it.

morally wrong.  My advice to everyone, client and provider alike, is to never do anything that you think is morally wrong.

so I can't imagine it can ever be much fun for the ladies.  Just kind of a bad vibes/bad karma thing.

I realize this could be bad for business, but maybe it would be better if the only people who did this were the ones who don't feel that it is wrong.

Monogamy is most definitely not a natural state of affairs for humans, but I doubt if the guilt these people feel can be removed by logical evidence for this fact.  

I'm curious....
You are not the first to make the statement "...it improved my sex life at home."
I don't mean to come across sounding accusatory, but I fail to see how this can help your sex life at home unless you were the reason it needed help in the first place.
I know there are almost as many reasons to augment one's sexlife as there are hobbiests, but this one has always puzzled me.

Look, just because I feel guilty sometimes for cheating on my wife doesn't mean I don't enjoy seeing the ladies.  It's just part of the price I pay, along with the "donation".  I don't take it with me to the bedroom.  

We all have our imperfections, cheating is just one of mine.  I think in my case it's largely circumstancial, since I had no problem staying loyal to my former ATF for almost two years (a record for me).  But she took excellent care of me while my wife doesn't.  Justified or not, it's still cheating.  Who knows, maybe after enough time had passed, I would have cheated on my ATF too.

It's possible that some attached people really don't see it as wrong, and therefore have no personal issues with it.  I wasn't raised that way, so my interests are out of step with my standards.  So I have conflict.  Boo hoo, life ain't perfect.  On the plus side, having conflict helps me to be less judgemental of people who violate society's taboos.  Keeps me from being too smug and self-righteous.  Keeps me humble.  Well, sort of...

I thought about this a while and it appears to me that you're looking for some affirmation that what you're doing is ok.  To the question of whether you're cheating if there aren't any emotional strings attached?  IMHO,yes absolutely.  But a really good question is; how would your SO view it if she were to find out?

" I would not mind it if my wife did the same thing I was doing
(or would I?)as long as she remained happy with me and her encounters were not emotional"

 Put your money where your mouth is and start doing 3ways and/or 4ways with your wife & provider(s). That way EVERYTHING is out in the open, no more guilt(we hope!) and your home sex life can get back on track as satisfying and fun.

 Just my .02
  YKSY

Is telling the truth a moral issue?  Because no matter how you rationalize it, that is what it boils down to, doesn't it?  You say you wouldn't mind your wife doing the same, but do you really mean that - that you wouldn't mind if she had a whole section of her private life that involved sex with other men, that she never told you about?  Would it make you feel better if she said it helped her cope with your boring sex life?

Speaking of which, I don't usually like to give advice as such, but if you're that bored after only two years of marriage, (my theory, after extensive research, is that in any reasonably lustful relationship, boredom should be held at bay for at least three years,) I think the prognosis is not good.

-Anya

I'm wondering why I don't see this more often??? Probably because if you're already married, it would be hard to suddenly change the 'understanding', but I have known of couples who were so close to each other they could see something wasn't right and talked it out. Those couples have the best marriages, best trust in each other, best friendship, and definitely a great sex life! So, it can be done. I'm sorry, Stormsinger to see that yours in now an Ex, but that's another story, and more than likely you are up front in your current relationships.

I absolutely love the relationship I've had for almost three years and we are very open with each other. He's the one who encouraged me to be a Provider!

On a completely different note, and perhaps a new thread, was wondering how many Providers don't mind seeing married clients, but in their personal, 'real' lives absolutely would not!!

Take care,
Sedona

It's pretty simple.  Since whether you are "cheating" or not depends on whether you get caught or not, if your SO would define it as cheating, then it is.

Whether it's physical, emotional, or whatever, cheating it in the eyes of the person who catches you.

Nicole of DC said below that you answered your own question. I think you did; but not necessarily the way SHE thinks you did.  For me, and apparently for you, this is wrong from an ethical standpoint. You even questioned whether you would accept this activity from your wife. I know that I would not and here's why.  The only reason I hobby is because as you pointed out things change after marriage for MANY women.  No one knows why. Every girl you talk to swears it would NEVER happen with them.  Their appetite for sex would never change and they would only marry someone they loved to fuck.  My wife said that. Every girlfriend I can remember said that. I've met some of their husbands later on and just like my wife those girls lied too.  Every friend I have says their wives lied about it! So I justify my activities BECAUSE life in our bedroom has changed.  I still care for her. I love my children. I think she loves me. So instead of a divorce I find pleasure outside.  If in fact she returns to her old ways then I would stop hobbying. Hell I would have to - we were barely clothed long enough to attend enough classes to graduate college!

So yes, for you, me, and many others, this is wrong - we know it and we'll justify it until change occurs.  

Thinking through this has brought me to this conclusion: There are many wonderful ladies we could see. But with the rationale that I use to continue in this hobby and the risks that I am taking the reward HAS to be worth it.  

SCAMPR's corollary: That which is paid for MUST exceed greatly in beauty and skill that which is free at home!

Not everyone hobbys for the same reasons so this corollary is only mine for now. Now if I was looking for a new wife this theory wouldn't apply, I'd need all the things we want in a wife. But I'm just looking for a date like you. So I'm saving my pennies and I'm dating the ladies that are smokin hot. That way when my wife returns to her senses I won't be kicking myself for settling for cut-rate when I could have just waited for her...

I definitely hear what you are saying, and I guess coming from a single man, I understand your opinion.  Three years ago, I would have said the exact thing that you did.  By the way, all of you are awesome and I love this discussion board.  ITs not that Im bored with my wife or dont like having sex with her.  However, to be honest, my wife doesnt do all the things that I like in bed, and when she does, she complains about it or does it half assed.  And after awhile that gets a little bit old.  Thats what I mean.  And I really do believe that Hobbying improves my sex life with her because I am making love to her without all the strain and frustration that comes with the anticipation of what she wont do, or wont to well.  If you can understand that.

The reason why it improves sex at home is because for one :  There are a lot of things that I like in bed, some as simple as a bj, that my wife simply wont do, or when she does do it, she does it half assed, or complains about it.  Little things like the extract from the overall mood and it can have a huge effect on my performance.  After seeing a provider, I come back to the bedroom with a different attitude.  I am not able to make love to my wife without the frustratino that comes with knowing that she wont do this, or she will suck at it, and I can just relax and enjoy my wife.  She also likes the sex much better when I am in this kind of mook.  JMHO

I really appreciate all of your guys responses to this question and it really does help to just talk about stuff like this.  I look forward to many more candid discussions with all of you.

I suppose...
But "improving one's attitude" about a spouse's shortcomings is different than claiming "it improves our sexlife."
I understand exactly the situation you describe, been there - done that.  But, I can't see this as an "improvement of" your sexlife at home.  
I know there will be the "it's the big head that is the greatest sex organ" and "it's all about mood and attitude over physical contact" arguments.  However, I still can't buy into this claim.  
Don't get me wrong, I am not making a judgement about the morality of seeing providers.  I just think that claiming that it improves one's sexlife at home is a lie.  Save for the one case of lack of experience...  Where a hobbiest might be learning new things, trying them at home, and achieving success.  I doubt this is the case in many instances.
If your attitude about your spouse's shortcomings is the root problem, I would suggest you are rationalizing.
Respectfully
Jetter

I'm not ignorant of long term committed relationships. I've been in completely monogamous relationships with women for periods of 4, 5 and 7 years. One was with a former provider/PS.

We lived together, had mutual bank accounts, and went to family functions together; I even helped parent three children in the longest relationship. There is no doubt that in each one of these relationships there were times that I looked and even fantasized about other women. However, I never felt the need to act out those fantasies. While we never declared our commitment to one another in front of friends and family, our commitment to one another was absolute and we always communicated clearly what our feeling were in and throughout the term of our relationship.

There were things I wanted from each of the women sexually that they weren't initially prepared to practice with me, but over a period of time and communication I got what I wanted, and they also got what they wanted. It was an excellent process of communicating and moving toward each other's wants and needs in a series of little bitty baby steps. But even a baby step draws you closer to your mutual goals.

Because of the commitment we made to each other we were able to work things out over a period of time, however, ultimately none of the relationships ended up in marriage. I don't have any regrets or second thoughts about why they didn't, and I still burn a candle for each of the ladies.

Another thing that made a huge difference for me is that when it became apparent that we would move from dating to exclusivity, was stating up front and in no uncertain terms, that sex is absolutely pivotal to the relationship. The things we did sexually before we committed to one another had to be present after we committed to one another. I don't presently and have never bought into allowing the fire and frequency of sex in the relationship to lag after we moved in together and lived together.

Bear in mind this was not me trying to dictate or control sexual antics in the relationship, it was a simple fact of saying with no illusions that I was not interested in having a relationship with little or no sex. In other relationships I had no problem whatsoever in ending the relationship when the women began withholding sex in order to get their way.

Long way of saying that while I was never married, I have been in committed monogamous relationships, including one with three children. So while I am still single, I am not a stranger to being committed to one woman and staying committed to that woman over a period of time.  I also was willing to work toward getting what I wanted sexually and give what they wanted sexually (usually a long, slow, seduction with lots of romance and creativity and farm animals LOL). If I had been married the marriages would have ended in divorce, so this wasn’t an issue of just letting the relationship die because we weren’t married.

JMNSHO,

HPG

for both parties! For it to succeed there must be considerable effort on both sides.
IMHO, it is the lack of this effort (usually because of communication problems) which causes such things as "affairs", "hobbying" (male AND female) and whatever. Please believe that I am the last one to pass judgement, but I am concerned for you that such a short time has passed before what seems to be the end of your marriage
Somehow, this must be rectified, if you are both interested. (I do not claim to know the answers - especially at a distance)
Good luck to you.