If it weren't for escorts, I would still be a virgin. I never really excelled at romance. I've gotten a few women to go on more than one date with me, and that's the extent of my accomplishments. I mean, that's why I see escorts (which I guess is maybe a little unusual for a guy in his 20s).

I occasionally try and do the whole thing of meeting women, dating, etc., and after a few months of getting nowhere I renege and just see a provider to alleviate the growing sexual frustration and whatnot. But I wonder, is this a problem in itself? Does the idea that, at any point, I could just give up and see a professional to meet my carnal needs effect my mindset that inhibits me from having any success with women? Do guys ever actually successfully go from seeing professionals to, um, I guess we'll call them 'amateurs,' and have relationships and all that? And I don't mean regular guys; I mean the ones who see providers because  they could never get it any other way (like me)? Or is it just a crutch for those of us like that?

Perhaps I need to justify the premise of my post: pros are great and all, but I would not like to go my entire life without ever being with a woman who actually wants me, and isn't just being paid to act like she does. And you may say this question would be more appropriate for a dating forum, but I just don't want to hear the 'just love yourself and sunshine and rainbows and peppermint farts' bullshit that's all over those places.
Thanks!

I'm never really looking for a relationship, of course I'd date a woman that looks like any of the hookers I've ever fucked. My biggest problem with women is finding one that I feel is mature enough to have a relationship with, and the older I get the harder that seems to be

Paying for sex early on is neither a sin nor virtue.  Just let life roll forward...

keep hobbying even while you work on social dating. Don't let yourself get to the point of "sexual frustration and whatnot". There's a good chance that you will be most relaxed and successful approaching a civvie lady right after a hobby encounter when you still have the emotional feeling of success, intimacy, and you don't feel like the fate of your blue balls rests on whether or not the lady accepts an invitation to dinner in the next five minutes.

The "scent" of someone else's pussy "bombs" as well.

Hey Max. It really depends on where you live. The options that are available to you as far as where you live I suppose Im trying to say. It also depends on you. Are you an introvert/extrovert? What are your wants/desires in regards to a relationship? Do you want to settle down, get married or play the field sorta speak? How much avaialble time do you have to date? To explore the options around you. Are you looking for a lot out of a partner. Are you hard to impress I suppose? I disagree with you thinking you could never get it any other way Max. I don't know you but there is someone for everyone out there. There is more than someone, lol. There are few to many out there. A lot of single people around these days, looking to date with a nice person. Lookin to be swept away. Again, depends on where you live to start. One thing I would say, is don't make it a big deal. In your mind I'm saying. I don't mean for you to be callous and void of sensibility and sincerity and honesty but just free. Don't fear rejection and don't fear putting time in and it not going anywhere. Be free and adventurous with it all!!!

There's a whole lot of other points I can make but I have to run. Sorry if I misunderstood something in your message and was just a bore. Lol. Seriously. One thing too. I do believe one can become de-sensitized to the feelings and pointed attention needed in Civvie life if one dabbles in the "professional" realm too much. At the end of the day, it depends on what you want. 20s huh? Oh man. Your hormones are a big issue. Well, they wont always be that good and frankly dangerous Max. Lol. I say try to find the middle ground but don't waste this time worrying too much. If P4P is needed when the urge comes, get it Max. Get it!

Good Luck Max!

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Are you seeking out women as come dumpsters or are you wanting a real relationship?

Civvie women, want and need a little more than a guy who hangs around sniffing out pussy and throwing a few dinners in the hopes he can "hit that".  

If you go at dating just for the sex, believe me women can smell that a mile off.  We have no idea what you look like or how you interact with the opposite sex. Maybe you need to take a look at your approach, maybe look at yourself and make some changes if you want to be with a woman who actually wants to be with you minus an envelop.

Are your expectations too high...you unattractive but want a hottie? Some men just do not get the fact that women want something hot too and get all bent out of shape when they are rejected. Not saying you are going up to a super model type and getting butt hurt when she walks away. But you might have to be more realistic.  

Finally, like the women who just look at men as wallets, looking at women as a walking masturbation tools  does not maketh a relationship.  


-- Modified on 6/13/2015 6:23:59 AM

When I had a wife at home, I noticed that she often became more amorous after I would come home during a day when I got some P4P.

I think the pheromones had something to do with it

I did some hobbying while at the same time doing some (mostly unsuccessful) dating, but my dating skills needed professional help, which I got, then ended up married.  Note:  I did not live happily ever after.

In the meantime, the hobbying continued mostly unchecked, but in the background.

So, I would not despair that hobbying is hobbling your civie dating efforts, but I would suggest some therapy if you really want a close civie relationship and can't get it going.

Do be careful what you wish for.  You may just get it

just make lemonade.  Have you considered during an hour date with a provider.......using some of that time to get to the bottom of things?

Most providers I have been with (with just few exceptions) are quite insightful and accommodating.  Most of them are really good/honest people.  Have an open, heart to heart talk with one of them.........trying to find out all about them.  It is not what they tell you, that will matter, but the manner in which your exchange takes place.  And, of course, solicit open feedback from them.  They can tell you more about yourself than you could ever learn on your own.  Plus, what they tell you could be worth much more than your sexual encounter with them or whatever you are paying.

Chemistry and a real connection between two people is much more than how handsome you or your sexual prowess.  You are spending time with a pro.........why not take advantage of what they can teach you?

Don't expect too much at first........but am betting, little by little......you will find out what is preventing you from making the same connection with some of your "real world" dates.

Always enjoy your posts.........and your honesty.

Oh and be careful............you just may make some very close friends in the process.

Constant demand on your time which most people don’t have. You would think when people get to certain age they have some idea as to how the world works and adjust accordingly but it is not happening.

I am with Dani 100% on this one, nothing is a bigger turn off to a woman that desperation. Women want men that other women want. If you doubt me, just try going to a club with a hottie on your arm and see how many other women will be attracted to you as opposed to going to the same club stag.  

I would have to agree with the advice that the OP continue hobbying while working on his game. His chances of scoring go up a thousand percent by not having blue balls while trying to get a woman to simply go out to dinner with him.

I use myself as an example, I get laid almost everyday, and yes most of the time I pay for it, but do you really think I have the slightest bit of nerves when asking a civvie chick out for dinner? After all the women I have been with thanks to P4P, I can ask a perfect stranger for a blow job without getting a "case of nerves"

and guess what? I still get them, even without an envelope attached.

You don't need to be "tall rich and handsome" to get a hottie, even in the civvie world. Just how many hotties do you see on the arm of a guy that makes you immediately think "what in the fuck is she doing with HIM???!!!"

I seriously doubt the OP looks at women as "cum dumpsters" as a betting man, I would wager that he is simply "too nice" not too shallow or demanding. Women claim all the time that they want a "nice guy" but the truth is, "nice" most often means a doormat, and very few women are interested in a door mat, except as a customer of course.

Out of context that statement is a riot. Do not try this on a bus!

an attack of common sense is quite a different matter.

A word of what I am sure is unnecessary advice to the OP, do NOT ask a random woman for a blow job on the bus. lol A random woman in a bar perhaps under the right circumstances, but definitely not on the bus. lmao

I don't have to settle anymore, and perhaps I've gained some confidence from knowing that.  

I've never had any game, I never did well in a club environment, I only know how to be me, and the guys that do well in a club environment are putting on a show, being someone that they're not.

But no need for game anymore. I pay for it, and I'm happy to do so.

So my hobby has had an effect on my dating/sex life, a positive effect. I don't have to deal with anyone's bullshit to get laid, and the ladies I see don't have to deal with my bullshit.

If you need love, especially unconditional love, get a dog. Great companions, and they don't ask loaded questions like "do these jeans make my ass look fat"?

You couldn't have stated it any better.  This has been the biggest single challenge I've faced IRL world, never enough time.  I have a pretty set daily schedule, and it starts early and ends late.

So when I'm dating someone, and they mention it.  I'll ask them to join me in some of these activities.  Few will make an honest attempt.  

 

 

 

-- Modified on 6/13/2015 9:30:08 AM

Would they be honest? I had one provider do the whole "I can't believe you think you have to go on backpage for sex, you should have  no problem out there" shtick and much as I'd like to believe it, she doubtless knew I'd more likely call her again if she told me what I wanted to hear; maybe she was right since I did call her again.

I guess I'm 'up for anything' as they say. Relationship, sure, but I wouldn't turn down a one night stand, lol

I did consider that this may be the case. Certainly with respect to being more realized, less frustrated after seeing providers.

But here's the thing, with regard to confidence at least: seeing providers doesn't seem to help me in that respect; because it doesn't really "count." I mean, I'm paying them, so it's not like I actually got a woman to sleep with me. It's no accomplishment, it doesn't reflect positively on me at all. I could still be horridly unattractive in every way and they'd still sleep with me for the money. Even subconsciously I can't really bring myself to believe the lie anymore that it isn't just work for them. When one girl I've seen a couple times said something like "oh, I forgot how big you are" I had to keep myself from laughing. I was going to say "dear, I've done the measurements, I'm not that big" but thought it might spoil the mood.

If anything, the fact that other guys my age seem to have no trouble out there and here I am having to pay for it seems to make feel like a bit of a failure.

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Oh I didn't mean "more than", but "also". I had a friend who was a tall, beautiful, woman who only dated other woman. She was my favorite wing man, ur ... woman, and she was a blast to take to strip clubs. She made me immediately more desirable to other woman. However, the fragrance of 'oh du pussay' makes GFs angry if they think it's a monogamous relationship (Its good to be single) But I agree, the smell of desperation turns most women off and can be noticed by the female nose several feet away.

"Smelling another woman on you" might be a good thing where it comes to meeting new women, but not advisable where it comes to SO's lol

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"walking masturbation tool" I'm sooo stealing that. Thanks!

apologies but ... I can't help commenting on this one .. I'm pretty sure you don't mean that the hobby is bringing about or creating your dating/sex life, but that it is having an influence on it. If so, "affect" is what you're looking for, not "effect"

And some guys in real life that approach women they feel they deserve but are sadly lacking in pretty much all departments for the lady.

Just the other day it happened to me...and I said to this guy, I would go out with you for sure, BUT you need do a couple of things before I do, lose 60 pounds, tone up so that we have matching 6 packs and improve on your hygiene. Yeah he called me a bitch,  I just laughed at him and walked away. That is what we deal with.  

I used to be nice and get still called a bitch for rejecting civvie guys I would not fuck with some other woman's pussy. Now, I figure I may as well earn the title.

Don't know, don't care ... the last civi I dated took out a prank Craigslist ad on me that had my cell ringing at all hours. I had narrowed it down to three possible assholes when she shows up at my door the next friggin day with her best "What? Who me?" face on - dumb ass gave herself away since I hadn't seen her in two months. Oh well, my regular laughed about it when I told her

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As you know, I spend a lot of time in Costa Rica where the hobby is not only legal, but completely out in the open in many places.

Now I have no delusions that most of these women are after anything but my money, but I do have the experience that most women have, but most men find completely foreign of having women that I am NOT attracted to hitting on me constantly. I find myself blowing them off in a harsher and harsher manner as I get more and more tired of fat, ugly women thinking that they have a chance with me. Yes, it not a "normal" thing for guys other than rock stars and sports superstars to have to reject women on a regular basis, but being in the position on a regular basis does give me an idea what a hot woman in this country has to go through.

I think where I differ from the average mid fifties "non movie star" is that when I ask  a hottie out for dinner or whatever, I try to do so in a "non lecherous" manner. Asking a woman to "grad a bite sometime" is a far cry from some creeper asking out a woman thirty years his junior "out on a date"  I don't delude myself that I get dates with hotties because of my looks. I am just happy that I have enough game to charm my way into her pants and being "non repulsive" enough that as long as she is not a "shallow bitch" like you, she might just fuck me because she likes me. Fortunately (for me at least) not all women are as shallow as you and me, and looks aren't a prerequisite for them. Even so, it's getting rarer and rarer that I bed a twenty something on charm alone, but getting to first base is easy with my attitude. lol

and don't worry, some of us use "bitch" as a term of endearment.

Women claim all the time that they want a "nice guy" but the truth is, "nice" most often means a doormat, and very few women are interested in a door mat, except as a customer of course.  

I was a "nice guy" for most of my life, along with being a nerd, and let me tell you, nice guys finish dead last. When I did get a woman to date me it was always, "oh you're so nice, my last BF bounced me off the walls and I know you're not like that". Then inevitably they would go back to the ex BF, "oh he loves me". Yeah he loves you alright, that's why he bounces you off the walls because he loves you so much.

A freind of mine's GF explained the dynamic to me perfectly, she had been a stripper and she was with loser woman beaters for most of her life until she met my friend. She told me flat out that I'm boring to women. Made perfect sense to me. But what she meant and explained is that these women didn't want to be beat, but that it was a rush of excitement which guy was coming home that day, the guy who was going to beat her or the guy that was so sorry and loving because he beat her. I'd so much rather be boring, and respectful.

I guess my point is, I'll be the nice guy, and I'll pay to get laid. It's so much nicer not having to come home to drama. I do what I want, when I want, with whom I want, for as long as I want. Perhaps I'm just too damn jaded, but being in a relationship is too much damn work, it's too hard and I simply don't do well with drama.

So OP, there are worse things than getting intimacy from prostitutes. Yeah they're only there for the envelope, but they're there, they're experienced, they have your pleasure in mind and then they leave.

Again, if you need love, unconditional love, get a dog. Dogs are so much easier to make happy and they're always glad to see you.

I would really like to hear a provider's perspective on this. As both a "real life woman" and a provider, assuming they are different answers.

You don't have to settle, you know you can get laid when you want to. I have had so much more interest since I started my hobby, because I'm confident that I'll get laid pretty much whenever I want. So the OTHFB club members, or the women I'd have any chance to be with IRL no longer have the power any more. This gives me confidence, and confidence is sexy (not saying by any means that I'm sexy, but I'm certainly more attractive).

I can't figure out why you would want to look back, evidently you have the means to see beautiful sexy women who will fuck and suck you to contentment, and then leave. It just doesn't get any better than that.

and yes, I am still a "nice guy" in the sense that I am not going to beat a woman, or abuse her in any other manner, but I won't be a doormat, and I am never going to beg a woman to stay. Or jump through endless hoops in order to impress her enough to have sex with me.

I have no problems "making the first move" with a woman, but unlike many guys, if I am rebuffed don't expect to be asked again. There is just too much P4P pussy out there for me to be sucking up to women just to get my dick wet.  

One last thing, I don't have any problems simply beings "friends" with a woman, and that is definitely due to the hobby. There is just so little pressure in my life to get laid, I don't mind being in the "friend zone" but what is so funny is that women know when you don't care, and then THEY are the ones who start wondering what they are missing out on. lol

But your not alone.  

I don't really give a fuck about an occasional typo, misplaced comma, or other minor spelling or grammatical errors, BUT if you are going to correct others, I can't help but point out that it is "you're not alone" NOT "your not alone"

Sheesh, how many fucking Conan wannabes do we have to put up with here?

Perhaps rarely, and it's probably even more rare for a provider to go on a date with a man that has paid to spend time with her.

I often forget to put words in my posts too.

At your young age if you spend too much  time in this business, you'll never figure out how the real  "word" works.
   
1.  Never be in a rush finding your way with a woman you desire, unless she tells you she is hungry.  
 If that's the case find suitable food quick.

2.  If she talks about herself listen with interest. Don't interrupt her words with your thoughts unless you hear a definitive pause, then you may  interject.
 Be interested in her life experiences while not asking  personal questions.  

3. Never brag about your money, home, education, job, or your latest smart phone.
   
4. Don't complain about Gals you've dated, or any woman, especially your Mom.
     If you don't respect your Mom you might as well stick to Hookers.  

5. If she tells you a story describing how her sister was  a total jerk,  never
 tell her you agree her family is screwed up.  

6. When she asks you to tell her some stories of your life, don't  mention the wasted time you felt you spent, with Gals you dated for months.
   If you don't have any  interesting interactive human activities or mountain climbing avalanche adventures, talk about the time you saved your Dog from the Ocean's undertow.  
 If you don't know how to swim tell her about the fun times you've had  at the dog park .
Any Gal worth pursuing and keeping, loves Dogs.  

 
7. If you can make her laugh your journey is half way there. Be yourself.
 If you have the natural demeanor of Steven Seagal don't attempt imitating  Jim Carry.
    Even if you are the Pee Wee Herman type and can pull it off, don't imitate Jim Carey.

8. Learn to be friends with "any" woman, whether you are attracted to her or not.
 The more Plutonic Gal friends you have the more attractive you look, even when  the Gals are not Hot.  
  Contrary to popular belief, a guy with many  plutonic girl  friends is usually not Gay.
  A guy with the most guy friends is  often the least attractive to desirable women.
 
9 . If you are both  in excellent shape and you aren't attracted to larger women, don't use the loser's line and tell her at dinner, how you really feel about the Gal in line, Super sizing her fries .
 
  If you are not in excellent shape, a general rule, don't waste a lot of time pursuing athletic Gals.
  There are exceptions to every rule, though generally speaking. birds of a feather flock together.

10. Never notice a sexy Gal or one dressed provocatively when you are with a date, unless your date  points her out.  
   It's OK to nod your head in agreement to her comments.  No words or judgment required or appreciated.

11. Be honest with her, don't act like someone you are not. She'll see through that in a NY second

12. Don't talk about sex unless she brings it up. Even then tread very carefully  with  explicatory words, until you are in the bedroom naked with her.

13. Don't ever answer your phone when you're  with her until you've already had an ongoing  sexual relationship.
       If she accepted your invitation to dinner she expects your undivided attention.
   
14. Don't curse unless she's a drunken sailor.

16. Don't be afraid of lightly touching her hand when talking.  Pay attention to signs.
 Keep your eyes off her breasts even when they are staring at you, unless you've already had them in your mouth.
   Don't touch her legs under the table until you've already had sex.
 
17. Be polite and a Gentleman at all times. Chew slowly with your mouth closed . Don't rush anything.  
Patience is most often a necessary ingredient in the pursuit of exceptional women .

18. Take it extremely light with the cologne or skip it altogether unless she gave you a
 bottle of her favorite, if she did keep your dose  on the light side.  

19. Smile don't frown.  Brush minimum three times a day, Floss twice for adequate  results.

20. Don't tell her you can't stand anyone where you work or everyone in your town is a jerk,  
or she'll be thinking you must have sociable personality disorder.

21. Never text her for a dinner date even if you've been out five times.  
You make her feel like she's taken for granted one time, your number is done.

23. Never tell her you are  bored with your life, job or hobbies.  
  Women realize guys  easily bored are boring and too weak to do anything about it.

24.When you find your first sexual GF and you two break up, don't dwell on it.
   Break ups  usually happen to everyone for a variety of reasons.  

  If you play your cards right you will have Gals breaking up with you, because you weren't ready to get married and they were in a hurry .
  If you play your cards wrong you will be married and divorced in a few years.  
   Remember, Never be in a rush with a Woman you desire unless she is hungry !
   
25.. Be strong without acting macho.

26. If you carry yourself with confidence there is no single straight available Gal, unattainable for you.  

27. If you drink alcohol keep it to a minimum. Most attractive women in the real World are  
  not into drunks.  
Don't drink and drive, it is your responsibility to get her home safely.

 
 I have a few more but it's time to go,  I have a 7 pm first date tonight, with a beautiful Gal I met  at the grocery store a few days ago.
 If I was insecure I'd think she's out of my league.  
  With so many  guys believing they don't have a chance, is likely why she's available tonight.
   
   I would never have the bad manners and audacity to be late for a dinner date.  
 
   PM me tomorrow, I'll tell you how I asked for her phone number without coming off as arrogant.
 
   

which is what makes you TSTTT most of the time.

As a guy in my 20's, I have qualms about this too. It seems like a strange paradox.

The short answer: I do believe that simply knowing I have a back-up option for satisfaction does make me less motivated / less anxious about finding a long-term relationship. But as others in this thread have commented, that drop in desperation may be for the better.

 
The long answer: I personally think that seeing providers for comfort and companionship is a short-term solution for a long-term problem (one that we apparently both share). But at the same time, perhaps that's not a bad thing. We are certainly on the younger end of the spectrum, and we have time to spare. Maybe now's not necessarily a bad time to figure out what we like in our women and in bed. However, whether or not it's an issue -- an inhibitor as you put it -- ultimately lies at the root of your motivations for seeing a provider. Is it actually just to blow off some steam, or is it a reflection of a desire for something deeper? If it's the latter, then perhaps you're better off quitting the hobby since that's obviously never gonna happen.

when someone is telling us what we want to hear?  Most of the time, anyway?

I would as well. Any go on here any more?

you're

I can't use up all my sense on this board, it won't leave me any for RL.

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being with pros whom you are paying to be the sex goddess you want is never the same as a civvie woman. She desires her share of the orgasms and might not be all that eager to do some of the things a hooker is paid to do for you.  

Look at it like this...some hookers can get into a situation where actual dating can be tough. Here's why...we put up with a shit ton from guys that we would not in real life. It is not all bad but because we are being paid, the action is john centric and we often forgo our own needs  for a variety of reason but the bottom line is we do.

So when civvie guy comes along, we want what we want and we can make no bones about it. I will not put with any crap from a civvie. Yep I am way harder on them since doing this and I am afraid you might be too (on civvie ladies) if you use this situation long enough. I actually feel bad for the guys who try and be with me.  I actually hate giving it away for free now.  

I really will not date per se...hook up, short term but not bother with a steady relationship. I love my privacy, my alone time and do not want to be bothered by a guy with a hard on when I just want to sit and read.

-- Modified on 6/13/2015 7:36:29 PM

..." If you are not in excellent shape, a general rule, don't waste a lot of time pursuing athletic Gals.  
  There are exceptions to every rule, though generally speaking. birds of a feather flock together. ...

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pedantic?

Hopefully I never end up that far down the rabbit hole, where I actually expect "service" from every partner I get in bed with.

But your point is well-taken; thanks for the insight.

I'm still on the fence with Effect vs affect, but you ARE correct.

-- Modified on 6/14/2015 1:17:20 PM

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I am a bit warped now.  Sex on-demand with beautiful women can do that.  If I get frustrated with the civvie world, I can come back here, it's almost like a little drug for comfort.  I've "quit" a couple times, only to come back.  I'm on the verge of backing away from here again, as I'm putting more effort into finding someone.  How it will all turn out, who knows?

I have just stopped bothering because I am too hard to deal with. This job has had an effect on me and the way I look at men and sex. I too get frustrated and find it soooo hard to give it away for free. I keep thinking how much money I could be making and then bail.

My belief is that the hobby scene is often one form of keeping yourself mentally and physically healthy.    Once you are sexually strong and confident you can focus on what is important....career and general health.  If you are successful with your career, you will carry yourself in a confident manner and the civilian women you want will come to you.  Do not see it as, "It is not real unless you met the woman on your own at the bar".  Remember, the so called "normal" relationships have their cost as well.