Be forewarned: I have been reading the abridged version of the Tales of Genji for 4 days straight. My mind is trapped in Heian Period Japan right now and I can't get out. T_T

I originally started a thread looking for a mentor, and prefaced it by comparing a the sugar baby lifestyle being similar of that to the Geisha lifestyle, vs being an escort being more like the lifestyle of an Oiran.

Then it kind of turned into the definition of geisha vs oiran, but sort of fizzled out (the newbie board isn't the place to debate that).

I just think that it's interesting to look at similarities and differences in the entertainment industry. A prostitute and a escort may dabble in similar work, but seem different to me. Geisha occasionally had sex with their long term patrons, but it was standard nor a part of their services. They were entertainers. Oiran were courtesans, meaning, they sold sex AND entertainment. Likewise, some providers calling themselves courtesans seems like presumptuousness to some, but it I'm genuinely starting to think there is more to it than marketing (a provider named "kelly" comes to mind when I say this). I'm not sure if I agree with the "whore is a whore is a whore" type of mentality. Linguistic anthropology actually has a purpose. Certain words have certain connotations. If i cultivate the art of pleasure and leisure, why am I not a courtesan?

Back story here:
http://www.theeroticreview.com/discussion_boards/viewall.asp?MessageID=107615&boardID=33&page=1#107615

Anyways, just my 5 a.m. musings.

ha we are all whores even in the role of girlfriend and wife, the number of girls/married women I know who withold sex until they are treated to something nice or kept in a certain style. We are all the same just dressed in different ribbons

In the end, it's all kinda the same to me.

It's pay for play.  It's an arrangement.  However you dress it up, that's how it is.

And there's nothing wrong with that.  But I find labels are really meaningless.  In substance, it is a paid arrangement, nothing more and nothing less.

Some marriages would fall into that category, as well.

what is it that you are willing to offer to the clients?

When I am looking to hire someone for an hour or two, I am primarily looking for physical activities (sex, BBBJ, DFK). I am a chatty person by nature, and love to talk about politics, sports etc, but that comes after my physical needs are met.. I am not paying upwards of $300 to talk with someone. I will just walk down across the street and sit at a bar and have chat with the hot bar tender...  

That being said..It seems that you are living in some kind of a fantasy, mystical world.. This world is not like that. Now there are ladies who do provide FBSM, but there is at least some physical contact..

You, in your post, are just throwing these words around. The way this hobby is in US, in 21st century, there is sex or at least FBSM invovled. Everything else is just a label.  Yes, there are different segments (i.e. Street Walkers, BP girls, Higher end providers, providers who think their shit doesn't stink)...but at the bottom there is at least FBSM or sex..

For me personally, and I have never dabbled into it, so I may not be 100% correct, in a SD/SB relationship there is still sex involved. Its just that the terms are slightly different. Most SD pay in advance and get discount. The advantage for the ladies is they are guaranteed certain amount of money, so they don't have to sweat to make ends meet.  

Don't know if that answers your question or not..

-- Modified on 11/26/2012 9:44:25 AM

If you want to be considered a Sugar Baby, TER is not the place to really cultivate patrons for that, though I have turned many an escort client into a long term sugar daddy after meeting them several times. "Kelly" as you suggest, is just being real, and you're not going to get many guys here agreeing that you're not a hooker just because you only have sex for money a few times a month, vs. a few times a day. Hell, I ONLY have sex a few times a month, but my website says I charge per date, not per month.

If it makes you feel better to label yourself a courtesan, geisha, etc. by all means do it, but don't expect anyone here not to introduce some cold hard reality to you. I know many ladies in the other side of this thing, and they are not deluded to thinking they are not in some form or another, a hooker.

You don't just wake up one morning and decide to 'become' a geisha. Those women are BORN and trained into that lifestyle, and they did not get their training from a fk board.

I can agree that there is a world of difference in the delivery though. Most true courtesans don't charge by the hour or even two...more like weekends and full on weeks, and they don't much care for reviews either. They are not over exposed and don't usually place too many ads on various review boards, and the clients are of course...like night and day.

I would try some of the sugar daddy sites, because what you're looking for might just be there, but be warned. Many guys there are nothing but escort clients trying to find naive girls for peanuts. Most clients in your realm are not even on the internet. They are in a network of other men and women, who don't much use the net to secure these relationships.

-- Modified on 11/26/2012 10:25:13 AM

Won't be apparent if anything involving sex immediately becomes sex work

Sex is a part of a SD/SB relationship, but it is not the primary focus.

In fact, if one were to "talk money" or sex on the first date, you would get a very very bad reputation. SD's are weary of anyone they think is an escort.

It's not "paying up front with a discount". Because that doesn't factor in the dates. Many of which DO NOT end in sex.

The sugar world and the hobby world are very different, just as the geisha and oiran world were very different.

My SD takes me out to dinner, blues dancing, poetry readings much more than we have sex. This all happens monthly for what one person could make in an overnight appt. But that's because the money isn't the primary focus. It's considered super tacky to bring it up, too. He and I meet twice a week....have sex maybe every other week? If he wanted sex with some occasional companionship, he would get an escort. But, he wants more of an LTR NSA thing. So he has an SB.

Most of my "compensation" from my SD comes in terms of the expensive dates and free Chinese tutoring.

Perhaps you do just want sex with a provider. But, that is why you hobby and aren't an SD. The needs are different. and SD isn't a client. A hobbyist is. Hence the comparison I was drawing.

I just chose to use historical Japan as the backdrop, because the similarity is so ridiculously interesting!!

It wasn't so much a question..as a topic of discussion. Maybe I will have better luck on the SA blog T_T

your mindview won't let you create a difference between a whore and a courtesan.. yes, they both deliver the same services, but the difference lies in the way the services are delivered.. much as there are differences in the way streetwalkers and high end call girls deliver services..

once you've reduced the transaction to a series of acrobatic acronyms, you probably would not recognize any value in a courtesan's offering...

I've booked more than one provider that labeled themselves as courtesans, but failed to live up to that label... when I first started dabbling in this sandbox a couple years ago, my bucket list goal was to hire a high end call girl.. I've found that there is no real "value" there.. so now I book GND types with reasonable rates and we engage in acrobatic acronyms...

doesn't mean I'm not still trying to find a courtesan..

What is the difference between a courtesan and a high end escort?

-- Modified on 11/26/2012 10:27:03 AM

It's not a board about "sugar babies" or "relationships" or "arrangements."  The whole value of TER is the review database.  The slogan TER used to use was, "Will she or won't she?"  In other words, does this girl deliver as she advertises?  Is she really the girl in the photo?  Does she perform specific acts?

Those are all things that this site is about.  If that's not what you are about, there are probably other sites for those things.

I agree with London.  You are splitting hairs and trying to make categorizations on a board which doesn't recognize those.  If you really want to be a geisha and some kind of long-term arrangement, there are places for that.  But it won't be here.

Your posts remind me of Tantra providers who advertise that they do Tantra and not full-body sensual massage ("FBSM").  I'm not sure what the difference is.  You both get naked, and she ends up giving you some bodywork and a release of some sort.  If one involves having breathing exercises and centering your chakras while the other is just a massage followed by handjob, they are still, in essence, the same.

And like I said, this isn't the board to really find that target audience.

Seems like what you want isn't on the same page as what this board discusses.

You can be a high end or expensive escort, and still not be a courtesan. You can also be high end, and deliver like a backpage girl. Courtesans in the true sense, were hooked up by a mentor, usually a mother sadly, or some older woman who raised them, not from the internet. It is a lost concept in the U.S. nowadays, but many project those labels to secure wealthy clients.

I am considered "expensive" for the area I live in, but not altogether elite. Well, maybe in New Orleans, but ONLY because of the level of 'service' I deliver. You can provide an elite level "service" such as having multiple incall locations, a driver service to pick clients up from the airport, serving only the best wine and food, etc. and still not be elite yourself...I am the perfect example. An elite companion would never post the crap I do on these boards...she would likely say what the crowd wants to hear, be soft spoken, never curse, or debate with emotion, but only logic.

There are just so many things that separate a courtesan from a high end girl...price is the only thing that makes one high end, but a courtesan is so much more.

You guys hang out and every once in a while have sex for change...  Its not even a BF/GF relationship...

This is a fuck board. Here everything revolves around sex.  I don't want to wake up in the morning to my escort quoting me Wordsworth.  I want to wake up to her going down on my taking care of Mr. "Woods"worth..



-- Modified on 11/26/2012 10:37:05 AM

more involved. They are not acronym focused or "how many pops am I going to get for x amount" focused if you will, but it is a real relationship in most cases. You spent countless hours with them, and your needs are met on different levels. My SD has NEVER dropped an envelope or handed me cash directly unless he was saying, "Here, go pay your electric bills."  

He takes care of things when I need them done, and we don't have a set sex schedule if you will, but I won't deny we fk every time we are together, because he is attractive to me. It is very hard not to WANT to have sex with someone you find appealing on so many levels, and that is another thing about the SD/SB relationship...you screen guys you are actually attracted to, and they do the same. You're not stuck spending countless hours with some ogre that you want to puke on like can happen in the escort world.

The woman also has to be very patient and understanding, because she is in fact meeting more than just a sexual need. You literally do become a type of therapist, friend, muse, etc. so if you can't get along with that person, it is not going to work. I never keep one around for more than a year, and even that is a stretch.

-- Modified on 11/26/2012 10:43:59 AM

the attitude may be different as its relatively long term engagement vs pop and dash...

But the focus is still SEX, right? I think the OP is saying that sex is secondary and companionship is primary. That is where I beg to differ...

For some men, it is in fact more about the companionship, because many cannot even perform to that level that you boys can anymore, then for some sex might be the end goal, but it is the leading up to it, that makes it more stimulating. They don't look at things the way most escort clients tend to look at it, but we are speaking in terms of a REAL sugar daddy, not some wanna be, 30 something kid who only has an extra grand a month to blow. Most of these men are from overseas, very wealthy, and simply alone. They do in fact want a companion for YEARS on end, and even pay to relocate the gal in most cases. Some are married and the girl becomes the mistress, whilst others are single and can devote their time to only the SB. I prefer the married ones lol.

normally I hate the term whore, but I completely get what you are saying. All women, not just providers get what they want because of what they give.

Good post

I know of several courtesans that offer 1 hour MSOG and that sure sounds like a high end escort to me. It's just words.

the more i read these posts..the more i am convinced this is Rasha's body double..

if we can't 'splain the difference between whore and hooker, how we gonna 'splain the difference between courtesan and high end call girl... my shot would be ambiance.. i'm influenced by the media, so I see a high end call girl as a "party girl"... dancing, drinking, eating. drugs 'n rock 'n roll.. a courtesan is more a medieval term.. an escape from the rat race, a nice quiet, candle lit place to go and be pampered.. fed peeled grapes, fine wine, and massaged while listening to elevator music

how's that ?

-- Modified on 11/26/2012 12:21:22 PM

we don't live in the medieval ages, the shit is one and the same.

As long as the girl has decent picture, affordable and has good reviews, I will see her. I don't give a shit if she calls herself a whore, courtesan, prostitute, hooker or whatever.....

These are just labels.. And sometimes used to get more money from us...

-- Modified on 11/26/2012 11:20:34 AM

Instead of taking time to understand, people like to trivialize words to something they easily understand, especially when it relates another culture. Then there is mine better than yours attitude. In eastern culture, Courtesans were common and are common today. It solves practical problem. Both men and women  amongst the affluent have lovers, courtesan, geisha, oiran, etc.

In the west and especially in the US it is frowned upon. Take Petraeus example of recent.

It's all about degrees, but the bottom line is that the SD wouldn't be there if not for the sex (in addition to companionship), and the SB would not be there if not for the money (or other valuable items or experiences).  

My blog gets me lots of business; it shows potential friends that I am articulate and well spoken, and it gives them an idea of my interests and hobbies.  Ever since I started it, I've gotten more requests for longer appointments and dinner dates because the guys feel like they will enjoy talking to me, in addition to other things.  But those 'other things' are in no way secondary to anything else.

Shades of grey.  But sex and money are the bottom line, no matter what the label or additional activities involved.

-- Modified on 11/26/2012 11:42:26 AM

as you describe it.

There are, instead many continuums (continuo?) in many different dimensions for the pay to play business, and on this particular dimension I know gals who are very reserved and cultured, and with whom I've enjoyed stimulating conversation about subjects ranging from science to politics to culture - as well as trips to museums and such.

I also see gals who want to spend the whole time in bed rocking and rolling.

I love them both as I am a man with varied interests, and I love variety.

By the way, I know you are likely on the west coast (damn the luck), but there is an exhibit at the Museum of Sex on Fifth Ave in NYC that is focused on the sex business in Japan throughout the last few centuries that you would find fascinating were you to be in NYC.

And if you were in NYC then......8o)

Dear Ms. Rayne:
I am just wondering when a courtesan who would be classified as being on the higher eschelon of adult companionship practitioners what would be a viable method of accruing new business? Would those on that level have an underground cunnilingus and social cooperative, where there is discussion for the purpose of determining if a prospective client is suitable for interaction? I am sure there is on some level because you would have to be in a certain circle of clients and providers to even be able to learn about who one would be. Therefore they still would be discreet and discriminating hoes with an emphasis on certain stipulations for selection and long term procurement of suitors. Almost akin to your preferred financial paramours that you would interact with.

Whatever anyone else chooses to call themselves is perfectly fine as far as I'm concerned!  LOL perhaps my wording comes off as being overly blunt at times.  It's not meant to offend - it's meant to challenge preconceived notions.  I enjoy the role of iconoclast.

Here's a short read which I highly recommend, courtesy of my friend Maggie McNeill - appropriately titled "Whorearchy".

cour·te·san   [kawr-tuh-zuhn, kohr-, kur-]
noun
a prostitute or paramour, especially one associating with noblemen or men of wealth.

call girl 
noun
1. a female prostitute with whom an appointment can be made by telephone, usually to meet at the client's address.
2. (formerly) a prostitute available to be called on at a brothel.

So it seems to me that, traditionally, the difference is the man, and not anything the woman does or doesn't do.....

You're misunderstanding,
I'm not labeling myself a courtesan. At all. Just making a distinction between geisha and courtesan and how it is *similar* to the distinction between SB's and Escorts.

I was and still am a Sugar Baby, not really "considered" one. I just now have my secret "escort" life that my SD's should not know about. I have two SD's currently, and basically the sugar world is all I know. That's how I can say with confidence these are different worlds. Yes, there are men who are just clients, but a real SB just stays away from them. Like a good SD stays away from a girl he thinks is an escort (unless he wants one...but then just get an escort).

If the men here want to think I'm just a hooker then they are free to do so. It was merely a historical discussion that has interesting similarities to present day entertainment. These men here will think what they will...doesn't make them correct.

Again, we are mixing the terms Geisha and courtesan here. Oiran = courtesan. Geisha = entertainer. That's not a fantasy, that is historical reality.

I never said that once becomes a courtesan training on a fk board. Nor does one become a geisha by reading the seeking arrangement blog. But that does not mean they are not out there.

I'm sorry Miss London, I think I have somehow grossly misrepresented myself here. I am simply a sugar baby who is trying to get into the hobby world, and musing upon the history of entertainment. I'm on a couple of sugar websites, but most of my SD's I met at conferences, or by accident (great stories...but for another time).

I'm not really "looking for anything" except discourse. But I suppose I have my answer. To the common person, a whore is a whore. And that is what it is.

P.S. I think you're a pretty classy lady. And you should check out Korean "kisaeng". They were elite compaanions, and just as fiery and passionate as yourself. My favorite was Hwang Jini. She even left the Kisaeng world at the height of her career to become a low level prostitute because she wanted to do thinkgs HER way"

P.S.S Geisha were not born into being Geisha. They were sold by their families to Hanamachi and apprenticed. Oiran were definitely not born into it, but sold to brothels buy poor families, but were taken on by other Oiran if they showed a propensity towards entertainment.

I so love East Asian history.....

Show me where Veronica Franco used TER to get clients lol.

This is so true. Words are given for a reason. I think, though, that many men who frequent this board will never have a need for a courtesan (nor could afford one)...so in their minds she is a fantasy that does not exist. The Geisha, being primarily non sexual, would not suit their needs, thus anyone who puts themselves in that category must be denigrated.

I meant another Kelly. I think her site is "kelly4u" or something. She's quite an older woman, but she seems just lovely.
I think I have a "provider crush" on her. (I don't really know what that could mean, but I'm bi so maybe I just want to have her as MY own companion). Oh god...I'm going to spend all my sugar allowance and escort profit on another provider!

But now I'm going to check your website too! (I love seeing what others do with theirs)

In the US, I would put Sugar Dating closer to the more traditional Geisha Experience, with high level escorting would be similar being an Oiran. I then put the most TOP TOP level escorts in my personal Tayuu (highest level of Oiran) rank.

I keep my entertainment world and outlook "old school" and I'm proud of it!

Oooh, that sounds like an interesting exhibit. I will be out on the east coast in March (College stuff, bot business), perhaps you would like to see it with me?

This is definitely what I mean. Because we have decided that whores are whores, and that words have no meaning and can be associated with anyone, people who may not be courtesans (but want to use the buzzword), take it and then give the word even less meaning.

As a scholar, I hold words sacred to my heart. And I while I know they evolve with cultural meaning over time, there is a way for cultural shifts to occur without the word loosing the root meaning. It's one of the reasons I don't engage in the use of the "N" word. Maybe it means "main kickin it homie" these days, but the root was a down trodden, enslaved black person who was ignorant. Can't change the root....

I'm on this board because I'm a new escort. I just also happen to be a Sugar Baby in my "personal life" and like analyzing the similarities between the two.

There is nothing wrong on a discussion on the history of the entertainment industry.

If you don't want to engage in the discussion, you are more than welcome not to. If you don't see a difference in different types of providers, no one is forcing you. It doesn't seem like you know too much about the historical background of "the world's oldest profession". Then find another thread that better suits your tastes.

"You are splitting hairs and trying to make categorizations on a board which doesn't recognize those"
Some responses say otherwise.

You may not make a distinction, but it should not bother you if others do.

For the record, I have never once contemplated creating the definitive hierarchy of strumpets.

Why is this thread ruffling so many feathers?

It was a simple comparison between two types of entertainers. Why did it become "this isn't a sugar website, if you're here you're a whore!"

It was simply a discussion on two types of providers. If someone believes that Sugar relationships are based on sex, they don't understand the sugar bowl.

Not all legitimate SD's are from overseas and relocate a girl. One of my SD's does not engage with me sexually at all. We both have a passion for tea. Tea houses, tea dates, trips to observe tea ceremonies. It's what he wants from me. We get to be obsessive together on something fascinating, irrelevant, and narrow.

Unless one has understanding of both worlds, or has lived in both...it doesn't really make sense to get upset.

The thread was not "Escort vs Geisha" "Courtesan vs Escort". it was SB vs Escort or....Geisha vs Oiran (in narrowly defined historical terms).

I am not trying to (god forbid) be anything more than an escort on this board. I simply wanted to muse on the contemporary and historical. The fact that a relationship involving money and occasionally sex, but not being primarily about sex seems to be an outrage here.

Emperor forbid that an entertainer may have a primary appeal as a companion, not for sex.

*sigh*


oooh, i remember dangerous beauty. The Korean Drama "Hwang Jin-i" is a good one to (The movie...eeeehhh not so much"

succinctly expounded my love..now we have to explain what a strumpet is..we do not have them with our afternoon tea..

you were not looking for anyone's opinion or approval here...you just wanted to discuss the differences between the two worlds, and they are vast. I think it is an excellent topic for discussion, but many here don't share those same views. Men here, rarely see or care about the differences because they just want to get laid lol. Granted, there are also vast differences between escort clients from blow and go guys, to guys who prefer overnights.

When I said the women were "born" into the trade, I did not mean from the womb, and yes I am aware of sex slavery in other cultures as you should be too. Being 'sold' into a family, is not exactly my idea of a woman making her own decision to do this, and I have zero respect for that.

Many of the courtesans in Italy however, were in fact born into it and trained by their own mothers who were also courtesans at one time. I find the discussion quite fascinating, but I doubt it will get many intelligent or informed responses right here. Lauren Summerhill shares much of your views, and is an avid researcher of this subject, but you won't find her here often.

I can now see, all you wanted was a simple discussion of the differences and how they might connect.

Lauren Summerhill...I will have to seek her out.

Your assesment is correct, I wasn't seeking validation. But since I'm still so new to the hobby world, I'm sure my views on the "modern courtesan" will be radically altered after I come to have more experience. We should discuss this again in two years!

I do highly suggest you watch Hwang Jin-i, it's really depressing (historical korean dramas usually are), but it gives such a candid look on what it would have been like to be a young, popular courtesan during a time when people truly believed in the difference. In all honesty, I don't think I have the disposition to be a courtesan.

Yes, sexual slavery should not be condoned. Period. But! Imagine if we were young girls abandoned by our families and sold into window brothels or flower villages, while become a courtesan or even just an entertainer wouldn't really be a "choice", at least it would give a way out from the lowly prostitute scene.
Nevertheless, the idea of being forced to do anything with ones body sounds depressing. Add in the underage affect and you fall into "abomination" land.

You did not offend at all. I'm still deciding how to work the "reply" button here, so when I really want to reply to the board as a whole, it looks like I'm replying to a person.

My first day here, I believe I "reported" more posts than I "replied" to. But in my defense, the buttons are really close together. >_>

In hindsight this was probably not the forum to discuss this on. But, what can I say? My fingers fly faster than my mind, and what seems like a good idea at 3 am doesn't usually translate after you have had sleep.

~Rose

I've only been an 'SD' for a few months, and I don't think I'm a traditional 'SD', but here's what I've learned:  First, there's some overlap between SBs & providers.  When I bed an 'SB' on the first date, I stop thinking of her as an 'SB'.  She's a provider.

Now let's talk about a 'true' SB.  She's not going to bed with you on a first date.  Second date? Not likely. Here's what's going on during those first few dates: that beautiful young woman who's sitting across the table is cooly appraising you.  She's in no rush and she has options.  She's not some desperate hooker who needs to get laid today in order to pay the rent.  Her clock is running slower than yours.  She's young, amazingly hot & probably casually dressed.  You dress well, SD.  She already has a boyfriend who wears jeans & hoodies.  You need to play the part of successful gentleman. Out-dress her, be generous, & don't get rattled.  Humor is a great icebreaker.  Be honest, modest, & articulate.  

My last arrangement was with a stunning 20 year old brunette.  We had four dinner dates with absolutely zero action. On the fifth date, she told me to book a room.  That day we went from zero to 60 mph at blazing speed.  Here's what followed: Great sex, no time limits, long lunches, trips to the mall. You give her an 'allowance'--I gave my SB $400 a week.  If her car breaks down, you pay for it.  If she needs a new phone, you buy her a phone. I'd only recommend this to guys who have an ATF & get off-the-clock time.  You're SD material.  The rest of you? Stay where you are.  --z  
 


-- Modified on 11/26/2012 3:54:40 PM

Most guys are not gonna be concerned with finding a girl who is eloquent, speaks several languages, etc.  What they want to know if whether you are the girl in the pics and what you do in session.  Do a search of the database to see the criteria, and that should answer your questions about what this site is about.

Realize that if your goal is only discussion, you may not find the audience that wants to discuss things as you do.  Most are here to find intel on and discuss issues with regard to escorting and finding escorts.

Look at the vast majority of responses.  Nearly all responses indicate that clients are paying for sex.  If sex is not your first priority, great.  But if you think guys are gonna girls to sit around and discuss things, you really don't understand the crux of this activity.  You can dress it up however you want, but in the end it is a paid transaction for sex.

I think discussion of anything is just fine and well.  I realize that's what you are trying to do on this thread.

Having said that, on another thread in another forum on TER, you basically ask for advice as to how to become an escort.  Perhaps people have seen both threads and are viewing this thread in context of your overall desire/inquisitiveness to become an escort.

Many hobbyists just want to know what an escort is all about when they are doing their research.  Beyond the obvious, "Does she do act A, act B and act C?" and "Is that really her in the pics?" what we are looking for is an idea of her personality.  That doesn't mean we really care about her political views or her ability to discuss some (what I refer to as) "arcane" topics, but whether she is fun in bed and easy to deal with in session.

That doesn't rule out or preclude the possibility that we might be interested in finding out more about them and getting to know them a little more personally, but that isn't our first inclination, and certainly for a provider who comes on here with no reviews, no history, etc.,...well, that just isn't what we are interested in.  We are more likely to be interested in what you look like, how you are in session, what you charge, etc.

Over time, as you build up your reviews and your credibility, your personality will come out and be embraced or rejected by the community here.  Rasha is a great example.  She has become a very well-respected voice on this board because her reviews tell us a lot about how she is in session and how she evolved.  And because of that, Rasha has built up some credibility so that her personality and her intellect has been embraced and appreciated.  In some sense, I think she is a great proxy or example for many providers on this board, especially for those providers wishing to find clients who value not only their beauty or sexual prowess, but also their intellect, personality, and insightfulness.

Hope this gives some more context as to the responses you have been seeing, especially my own.

disagree with the treatment aspect of that anyway. You may not be some 70 year old Hugh, but you certainly treat the sugar babies well, and that is all that really matters.

This has been one of the most fascinating and enjoyable  conversations I have read on her in a while.
Thank you all for your participation and your insight.
Have a beautiful day.

Lilly

I am not going to desist starting discussions on things that interest me just because I do not have a "presence".

If you are not interested in my thoughts because you do not know how I am in bed, that is fine. But that is your prerogative.

I've actually gotten quite a few emails from this, so some people don't seem to mind my personality already. It just makes them want to meet me.

You are not obligated to post on a thread I make. So if my "newcomer" status basically invalidates everything else to you, then why not just simply stay away? I have just as much a right to speak as someone with 100 reviews.

~Rose

Thank you. I enjoyed it as well.

You can discuss whatever you want on this board.  No one is stopping you.  For the umpteenth time, I am simply saying that you need to consider the audience on this board.  You really do.  Because if you are talking to a bunch of guys who are posting on a review database which exists primarily to find out whether a girl does this, that or the other...well, do you really expect them to be appreciative of cognizant of some fine distinction of label of someone who rents/sells her body out for money or compensation?

If you can't understand that...well, good luck to you.

If I weren't interested in your thoughts, I would not be engaging you on this thread.  Simple.  I would just ignore you, as I ignore many others on this board and as I ignore many threads.

You come off as a precocious, somewhat "I'm much more mature than my years" person.  That's great.  But many people aren't look at the bill of goods you are trying to sell and say, "Yeah, I'm interested in that."  Don't confuse the fact that I'm not interested in a 19-year-old Asian girl as a provider to spend my money on with the fact that I'm not interested in hearing what you have to say.  I do.

But it goes the other way around, too.  If you don't like what I have to say, then you can simply ignore it, too.  Because the board works both ways.  You can post what you want, and I can post what I want.

I do find you intriguing, but again, you don't understand that being a newcomer isn't something that I hold against you.  I'm just saying that the way things go...if you want to be taken seriously, that takes time.  I used Rasha as a good example, perhaps the best example, of someone on this board who is obviously very, very intelligent and who has been successful because she is not only sexy and beautiful and good in session (from the reviews I have read, not having ever seen her personally), but successful because she is intelligent and can converse truly on a lot of levels.

So far, honestly, I don't see you in the same light as Rasha.  And Rasha is a good benchmark to use, because she is a proven commodity, so to speak.  You are still nothing but a name.  No reviews, no internet presence other than some screenname, no nothing.  Of course, you're also "transitioning" from one area of sex work to another one...okay, whatever.

You show some degree of authenticity in your somewhat-intellectual posts and your dazzling dissertation of one type of sex worker vs. another type, but from where I am sitting, you're just one girl who likes to talk about one topic, and who seems to be knowledgeable in that one area.  I go back to Rasha, who seems to be able to converse on a high level in a variety of areas, and I would tell you to look at her as a good benchmark of someone who a client might want to see BECAUSE of her degree of intelligence as well as her sexiness.

I honestly don't think that intelligence and personality alone are gonna get you clientele.  Again, you said that you wanted to be an escort and transition into that.  If you don't know what that means...well, it means that intelligence and education isn't the primary selling point.  So if that's your selling point and not your physical appearance or how you are in bed...well, girlfriend, you're just gonna find out that like some other girls, you are gonna have mismatched expectations.

I know one NY/NJ-based provider who posts in the Ad sections often that has a similar platform.  And she constantly asks, "Why is girl X able to command $500/hour when I can't?  I have a college education, and I'm incredibly smart."  And my response is..."Well, you're kinda pudgy in your looks, and your body type and face just don't command $500/hour."  Sorry, but that's the way the cookie crumbles.

You can talk all you want about how intelligent and charming you are.  And honestly, you DO seem very, very intelligent.  But I gotta tell you...if you look like this (and this is OBVIOUSLY NOT YOU), well, you can be the smartest, most charming woman on the planet, but you won't be very successful as an escort:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/mindi0massages

Now...going back to your response here.  The board is free for all to comment.  I'm engaging you in discussion.  I've brought up a lot of points here for you to think about and respond to.  Will you address those?  Because you can do that...or you can "stay away," as you tried to advise me to do.

It's a two-way street, girlfriend.

I will respond to your paragraphs in order, for if I don't I will simply de-rail myself with ramblings.

I did not expect it of *anyone* I merely stated I believed there was a difference and wanted to discuss that. There were some males who responded here who thought similarly to myself. There were some that did not. The thread achieved its purpose, to discuss a thought I had early in the morning. I understand where you are coming from perfectly.

I am not Asian. I am a petite black princess (so, built like a small Asian woman). My handle is a reflection of speaking Chinese (Mandarin-Southwest dialect FTW!), and having lived much of my young life in rural China. Also, we don't know what bill of goods I am selling because my website has not been viewed yet (many reasons for that, but it is a separate issue). Side note: You might be 40+ or 50+, because gentleman in that age group are more likely to label me "precocious". That being said, many an older man have found me suitable to spend time with (albeit in a different setting). I can compete with a 45 year old woman any day! (Of course, since I am not reviewed nor do I have a presence, you will just have to take me at my word *chuckles*)

It's not that I dislike what you are saying. You repeatedly seem to miss why I say something, or what my motive is. You told me this was the wrong board for me (because you thought I was trying to be a sugar baby), when that was not what I was saying at all. I respond to your posts in an attempt to clarify where I am coming from.

Further, yes I am 19. It doesn't mean anything, except that I may be better at using technology than you because I grew up using it. A time before pagers is unknown to me (did you text by carrier pigeon?). To characterize someone by their age is silly, and assumptions can often be false. I'm not going to change you opinion on that, nor do I care to (if you make the choice not to be my client, then feel free. It could be a potential loss for us both).

If some choose not to take me seriously because, unlike Rasha I have not "proven" myself, then fine. But my inbox tells me otherwise. For those that don't, there shall be those that will and I choose to focus my energies there.

If I posted for your validation, then perhaps that would matter. That you do not see me in the same light as Rasha isn't my concern. If you need a review and backchannel conversation to tell you I am intelligent, then I don't know what to tell you. You say that as though I am trying to prove something. Simply because you do not know how I perform in bed, does not mean you should discount me on  board, in thread where my goal *is not intended to promote me to you*. If I wanted to promote myself I would link to my website. For those that care to see it, my personality comes through my limited posts. Again, those will be where I choose to focus my energies.

As for being knowledgeable in one area. I have made THREE threads. Of course it is not going to cover an array of topics because that is not what was on my mind on the time. Rasha being able to converse on a variety of topics because she has more posts. I don't need to prove myself to you. My "somewhat-intellectual" posts are simply meant to be my musings. No more, no less. I am not asking you to evaluate me as a person. If I wanted you to, I would ask you to meet me and review me. I am not.

Now, when have I *ever* said that being intelligent and charming would bring me clients? I have not gone on about how intelligent or charming I am. I have never said I was charming. This was not a thread on how I'm planning on attracting a john. "But I gotta tell you...if you look like this (and this is OBVIOUSLY NOT YOU), well, you can be the smartest, most charming woman on the planet, but you won't be very successful as an escort". This statement is irrelevant to anything I have been saying in this thread. I never once said that a john would patronize a woman who was unattractive simply because she is intelligent. None of this thread was about what a hobbyist will and will not spend money on. Nor did I ever say that I could command $500 an hour. Most of what I did say about myself was to lend back story as to WHY I was musing on the difference between entertainers.

You are making a lot of assumptions about who I am, and my thoughts on how I will sell myself, based on a thread about the historical differences between prostitutes and entertainers.

I don't know how successful I will be as an escort. I would not project that because I am too new. I am black, very tiny, and a submissive. I don't know what the market will yield on that, or how I look. *But*, that was never what this thread was meant to discuss. You seem more interested in telling me what a provider is and isn't, and "what's what" that you ignore what I am saying.

If an ugly smart girl cant make $500 an hour, good for her. That is irrelevant to the difference between A geisha and an oiran. If you have a desire to dissect me more, you can do like others have done and send me a private email. I can't read mail on here since I am a regular member.

While you draw uninformed conclusions about me on this thread, which I find annoying, I respond to your posts because I have enjoyed them in other threads that I have read. I feel as though, if we were to meet, I may enjoy you as a person. Not that you asked, nor care how I feel about it. Just FYI.

I also want to meet mrfisher and go to that exhibit in New York.

~Rose

You can't read PMs because you are not a VIP member.

On the thread you posted, I will address what you wrote in order, as well:

1.  Fine...we agree that this is just a discussion board, and the thread served its purpose.

2.  Great, I have a better idea of where you are coming from.

3.  Precocious is a relative term.  Most 19 year olds are in their freshman year at college, and really have very little life experience to draw upon, except high school and what they have read in books.

4.  It's not that this is the wrong board for you.  It's that you should understand who the readers of this board are.  If you are writing about geopolitical risk for Playboy magazine, you shouldn't expect to get a lot of intelligent responses from readers who are buying magazine to view Salma Hayek naked.

5.  "Proving yourself" is also a figure of speech.  No one needs to "prove" anything to anyone else, but someone who posts in another thread that she wants to be "elite"...well, like I said, if you have to ask whether you are elite, you probably aren't.

6.  Rasha is a good proxy because you mentioned you wanted to be "elite."  However you define that silly term, Rasha would be considered that.  She is known for her quick wit and intelligence, but the primary reason she gets booked is because she is first and foremost attractive and good in session.  Read her posts if you want a good proxy as to what an elite provider is like.  That is what you were asking, right?

7.  Your posts are all about geisha vs. whatever...I don't know that topic nor am I really that interested in the distinctions.  To me it's all variations on men paying for companionship.  And that companionship means sex at some point.  Whether it's the primary driver of the relationship is irrelevant.  No man is going to pay to have a woman around so he can have stimulating conversation, unless she is having that stimulating conversation with some sexual overtones or context (e.g. her talking about Chaucer while being naked).

8.  19-year-old petite black girls are not my wheelhouse, so to speak.  So, no, you wouldn't be able to convince me to meet you and review you.  To speak with you over a drink and dinner?  Perhaps.  But to book with you?  No.

9.  You never SAID that being intelligent and charming would bring you clients.  But you did ask how one becomes an elite provider, and you made frequent emphasis to your education and your intelligence.  You didn't mention anything about your body type or your appearance.

10.  Yes, I am making assumptions but that's what you have to do given that you have revealed little about yourself other than a few posts, including "How does one become an elite provider?"

11.  If you want to dispel untruths or false assumptions, then give me some more information to go on.  I can only go by what you said on this board.

12.  Other providers have met me in person that I have had zero interest in booking with, and we have had great dialogue.  I would welcome that, as long as it was understood that it was dinner or drinks but nothing else.  And that I wasn't paying you an hourly rate for your time.

Other people have emailed me, so I must have put it somewhere. But you only like to focus on the thread where I asked about being an elite provider. So you must have missed it.
It so much easier when we can bullet point like this:

I'm going to skip to....
3. That description does not fit my graduating class. Most of us either worked, or lived overseas for a period of time and have had many life experiences. We all did way more than read books and go to high school.

4. Again, I wasn't expecting anything. I posted what I wanted because I felt like it.

5. You keep referencing ONE thread I wrote. I didn't say I wanted to be elite. I just wondered what some would consider that. And there is nothing wrong with that question.

6. No, that is not what I was asking. But I'm tired of repeating myself about a question that is irrelevant to THIS thread.

7.Then why have I been paid just to spend non sexual time with an SD before? I mentioned that in a post. Just because you would not, does not mean others won't. But why does this even matter? I never said I had a problem with being paid for sex. So I don't know why you even made the statement. And if you do not care about the differences between the professions then why comment?

8.I never said I was you type. I never said I wanted to have you as a client either. Nor did I ever as you to pay for my time. I have no interest in you sexually or your money, so whether you like petite black girls does not matter to me.

9. no I did not mention what I looked like physically, because it was not pertinent to my question. And since you have no interest in me, my physical appearance is of no consequence to you.

10. Why are you so stuck on that one thread? It wasn't a thread looking for clients nor was this one. I still don't understand why you feel the need to make assumptions about someone. You take those assumptions and further extrapolate about what you think my views are, and what I expect. Or you could simply take my posts at face value like everyone else. They are nothing more, nor anything less.

11. Or, you could just stop formulating ideas about someone who doesn't matter to you. No one took my threads as far as you did. You made them about me personally, when they were not. You gave answers to questions I did not ask, and your answers were incorrect, at that. I will give as little or as much information about myself as I please. I'm not here for you. Why do you seem to think that? No one who has responded to let thus far has reacted the way you have. You feel a need to "school me". Again, why does it matter to you if I ask what people would consider a top provider? Why does it matter if I care about the difference in entertainment professions and their historical origins? Why does my age matter so much to you?

12 (im adding an extra). I don't care about Rasha (no offense to her). I don't care whether you find me attractive or not, nor if you won't spend money on me. If you want to know more about me (lord knows why), you don't have to make assumptions. You can simply ask. Also, there are enough people that have received me positively, that you taking issue with ONE thread, or how I decide to market myself as a provider, or who I am as a person, does not matter. It shouldn't.

my email is [email protected]

Please don't misunderstand that my discussion of these topics with you is me pigeonholing you.  Again, you just came on this board a few weeks ago, and so we are trying to get some sense of who you are.  The very anonymous nature of these boards makes it easy for you or anyone else to be anyone who you want, right?  So the fact that you represent yourself as a fairly unique individual (19 years old, have lots of life experiences, speak multiple languages, black in ethnicity, etc.) is, well, something that one hand is great because it's so different, but also something to be questioned and handled with some skepticism, because you have provided so little information about yourself other than that.

The truth of the matter with regard to this hobby/activity of ours is that it's a complex one, driven by mens' needs to feel something.  Most of the time that manifests itself in wanting to have sex with the other woman, but that sexual want and need could be the end game and the mission, or it could be the opening gambit for something that's more complex and interpersonal.

Some guys, like Charlie Sheen, are just about the convenience factor.  As Charlie says, "I don't pay them to come; I pay them to leave."  And then there are some people that are on this board that basically end up falling in love with them (names will go unmentioned, but there is one that I recently interacted with that played white knight to two providers because he mistook me for someone else--even after being corrected by the two providers in question).  And there are all shades in between.  That alone could be a great case study, because you can see all types.

As a guy who has had relationships with providers in the past, I can give you my own experiences on what that's like.  That's probably better via email.

If I only focus on the "elite provider" thread, it's because you haven't contributed much else on this board.  The only other substantative post you have put up here has been this one talking about some history lesson between one type of provider and another.  Which is fine, but honestly, to me...it's splitting hairs.  It really is.

The truth is that paid companions don't fit into nice little categorizations any more than we clients do.  There are always lines blurred between one definition and another.  One girl might say that an arrangement between one guy and a girl could be more of a sugar baby arrangement than a provider arrangement, if, for example, the provider gives six hours or an overnight for the same rate as an hour to another client.

To me, that's just all bullshit.  I could care less about the classification.  Call it "paid companionship" and you can draw your own conclusions about that.

The fact that you could have spent time with a SD that didn't result in sex is great.  Maybe you found the one outlier, because that doesn't really exist as a rule.  Anyone can find an exception, but if you wanna point to that and extrapolate from that...good luck.

I'm not here to school you or anyone else.  But you did come on this board asking for information--or what we call "color" in the capital markets world.  Given that I have over 20 years of experience here across two coasts, you might think that I know a thing or two about this.  Search my reviews, and you can see the types of girls I have seen.

I look forward to continuing this via PM.

...Those lables are specifically used to extract money on both ends of the spectrum!  the BP girls charge less knowing that you aint gettin nothing more than a rush-and-fuck!  the high-end/VIP/courtesan providers charge more knowing that they are going to try to provide that connected GFE experience.  Hence, you gotta pay me more for my efforts.