Is anyone else as shocked as I am!  I thought the survey would result in no more than 5%.

It's actually quite alarming if the numbers (40%) are correct for Bare Back FULL SERVICE and not BBBJ.  

-- Modified on 4/28/2003 9:08:43 PM

I'm as shocked.  I would've never expected nearly half those surveyed went unprotected.  At the price of a decent handgun, wouldn't it be easier and cheaper just to shoot oneself?  At least that way, one doesn't risk one's friends' and loved ones' health.  Unless, of course, they touch the blood on the wall behind one's head.

I hope the survey has a large statistical error.  I suspect it does.  Things may not be as bad as they seem.

Alot of guys probaly did this back in the 70"s before aids . As a long time hobbist B4 ADIS it was very common practice. Once adis came on the scence No one I have ever been with does that.
A gentelman never even ask for it...

MrLic

Consider that many hobbyists here have been doing this for some time, and were "hobbying" in the pre-AIDS days when bbfs was the norm. Actually, I wouldn't be surprised to see 50+%, since if you do this enough it WILL be offered, and it can be hard to resist.

I'll go ahead and be bluntly honest to see if I can get this discussion going in a useful and informative way: since I started "hobbying" in 1994, I have had bbfs with eight providers... two were one time only, the other six were girls who I had seen many multiples of times, and included a gogo girl in Bangkok (a virtual death wish) 8 years ago. I do test often, and am "fine" at the moment, but I conceed the stupidity of it. That said, it will likely happen again at some point, and I even know the "cause":

In many cases, especially in the case of AMPs, the provider only brings one condom; but if the chemistry is there, and it is the heat of the moment, and the desire for "pop 2" outweighs reason, it is very common I suspect for bbfs to occur: this has been the main trigger in my case. Then, if you see the girl again, both the provider and client are inclined to have a "special" relationship without protection.

In the case of the Thai gogo dancer, the condom was too small, she was too incredible, and ... there you are.

I think it is rare for bbfs to be assumed at the outset; it is more likely an undisciplined reaction to running out of condoms, or a "progression" from "customer" to "temporary boyfriend".

I did have one case in an AMP where I DATYd the girl, she came hard, and just wanted it in her "now"... afterwards, she was mad and said I "made her crazy" and I should have not allowed her; but, thereafter she assumed bbfs since we had done it already.

I guess I last had bbfs about 9 months ago (yes, the same provider who wants to visit me on her vacation I discussed to considerable flaming a week or so ago), so I can't say it was the folly of youth or anything.

Oddly, some providers become very "close" after bbfs, especially the AMP girls... its as though they are touched that you trust them anough: maybe it is their version of a "BFE", and so that lends an added attraction. Certainly both the physical and psychological sense of intimacy is extreme in bbfs, and maybe the danger adds a thrill. I am an extreme thrill seeker anyway, and have subjected myself to quite a few deadly hazards (vertical rock climbing, street racing.)

I can distinctly remember taking off that too-tight condom in Bangkok, the puzzled look of the girl and then her surprise as I entered her... at the time I could actually hear my thoughts telling me I was probably going to die, but I didn't care. The girl came hard, and we really bonded, so I just kept doing it (I spent about a month with her) and the combination of danger and intimacy was irresistable.

I am not stupid... ironically my first scientific paper was a study of glycoprotein inhibition in HIV, my early expertise back in my biophysics days. Maybe I am the craziest person here, but I suspect not. I hope some of the other 40% will analyze their motivations.

More likely I will just be napalmed like crazy. Well, my asbestos suit is ready.

O.

Actually, I'm not as shocked as I thought I would be.  I did a quick tally of my own experiences and found that about 25% of the providers I've met either made a move toward mounting me, or let me make a move toward mounting them without a condom in sight.  In each case, I've requested one and have never once had a provider even hesitate in producing one.

I guess I'm surprised at how many have gone ahead with it more than how often it's been made available.

Comparing bbfs to shooting oneself is frankly hysterical, and not helpful.

Realistically, even in the Southeast (the region with the highest incidence of HIV infection) in Georgia, the incidence is 20.8 per 100,000 population, or one in 5000. Combine this with the fact that HIV is very non-virile (even direct serum inoculatuion results in infection in fewer than 0.5% of cases) then even non-protected anal would produce infection much fewer than once in one million cases.

You are far more likely to die in a car crash on the way to see a provider than you are from bbfs/anal from her.

The REAL concerns are less lethal, more virulent infections and especially passing infections on to others. That is where the health risk lies.

Is bbfs a bad, bad thing? Yes. But shrieking like a Victorian woman about how lethal bbfs is just silly.

O.

As mrlicker pointed out the keyword is ever.  As such I am not surprised at 40%.  The last time for me was back in the mid 80's and I caught the clap...lesson learned.  Recently a provider presented herself in a way that I knew bare back was on the menu and I promptly found a condom!  Oh...and there was the time the damn condom broke.  Even then, although likely too late, I found another before continuing...and promptly got myself tested, and again 6 months later.  Tempting as it may be in the heat of the moment being mindful of safety is of paramount importance.  But I must wonder...if things were to get serious with a provider, what I might do!!!

People are responding as if it's one primary cause (ie. question asks if EVER having BB with provider vs. it being offered today).  It's both.  I'm relatively new here, and it's been offered.  Didn't accept (primarily cause I was speechless).

I wasn't sure whether to say yes or no.  I haven't intentionally go on in bare, but on 3 occasions with 2 providers the condom came off or broke.

The first one was with a well known, very active provider who actually had a review some months after mine that mentioned that the guy was offered bareback.  In my case she was going CG and litterally sucked the thing off.  In another review a gent mentioned that that was one of her skills. She was nuts, wanted it so bad she didn't want to quit the action, but I did. Yet again in a review I read that she was such a nympho that once she started CG there was no stopping for anything until she came.  Frightening experience.

The other times were with my ATF.  She tried a new brand on me and it lasted about 3 strokes and there we were face-to-face so to speak.  We quit then and there and cleaned up and found the old favorite brand. The other time was very passionate heavily involved CG and neither one of us knew until I had popped and gone limp that the condom was off.  We tested and hit the morining after pill bar.

So, did I do bareback FS or not?  I voted No, because of intent.

I should point out too that I do see an extraordinary number of providers, so taken as a percentage "8" could well correspond to many hobbyist's one or none...

I do tend to stick with a favorite for a while when I find her, and then "prospect" maniacally between favorites, currently I am in a prospecting phase, for example, and have seen 8 different girls in the past three weeks... on average, I may have 150-200 appointments annually, with 50-60 different girls.

When I was living in Asia (Thailand and Phillipines) it was not unusual to see multiple girls per day, maybe 2-3 on free days... over a two year period, easily 1500 sessions with probably 500+ different girls (factoring in prospecting and favorites).

Add that to perhaps 1200 or so appointments with 400 different girls stateside, and you have nearly 1000 different girls over a 9 year period.

So it may be the high volume client who is checking "yes" on bbfs... it may be possible to become complacent with frequency.

I know the first time I tagged an AMP girl I wouldn't even do DATY because I was leery of contamination... and I certainly have no problems with it now.

Vigilance does wane.

O.

-- Modified on 4/28/2003 11:31:07 PM

who have fallen in love with a provider (38%), the ones that has been heart broken by a provider (32%) and the one who would marry an active provider (44%), the current result of the survey is not surprising at all.

Many hobbyists over the years have turned a casual sex encounter with a lady into full blown relationships or friendships.  Some of them even married ladies.  I guess in most of those relationships, condoms are not used as in the case of BF-GF.

I would be interested in checking the result of a follow up survey question - Have you ever had a serious relationship with a provider?

Only then would a more completed picture be shown.

Boy... don't I just stir the pot... LOL

-- Staff

1994 is not "pre-aids days"

I first started this thing of ours in 1977 and even in that prehistoric time I realized that getting a STD was not a pleasant experience and didn't want to compromise the safety of the fine women I saw.

... that 1994 is not "pre-AIDS".

I said many of the respondees probably could be explained by their age.

I first learned about AIDS in 1984... when I was 15 and a little too young to hobby.

O.

In my experience, I'd guess 10% seek BBFS.  The rest aren't seeking BBFS.

I can usually tell by a hobbyists actions whether he's seeking it or not.

He usually DATY's then heads for a kiss hoping his lover feels the same intimacy or tries to take it off while a provider is on her knees doggy style (asshole move).  

Most experienced providers help guide you in to ensure everything is safe.  In lover boy's attempt at full frontal love making, a quick slip of the hand over my privates gives the hint.

Last but not least: doggy style asshole move #3 is to pop the rubber AFTER she's guided winky in.  If I hear a pop, the date is over and he's leaving.  

I feel it's a providers job to keep things sane.

Frankly I could care less what you or anyone else do with someone else. The bottom line is that it is my responsibility to protect myself while I am with *you*.  And yours, vice versa. If we all sit here all day long and worry about what "everyone else" has done we'll drive ourselves crazy. The entire POINT of protection is so that that becomes a MOOT POINT.

Sincerely,
Nicole

I must say that in light of the post about TS's and their "hunt for the bug" and bareback sex below, this is a REALLY interesting post Oz!

Before I break out the napalm blowtorch, I'll say that I really do appreciate your honesty! And your post also makes me so grateful that I have been doing my best to ensure that *I* am protected regardless of what you guys do.

Especially in light of the post reaming TS's below, it's... well it's not NICE to see you being unsafe, but it certainly proves my point.  A Thai go go girl! WOW!!!!! What's the HIV rate in Thailand again???

Now, that said... I will say personally that I have no desire to "bond" with anyone by having bareback sex. Good lord. Isn't it convenient that the odds I will catch something from that far outweigh the odds that you'll catch something from me in that particular activity???? Happy days for you guys who don't bother to play it safe, I suppose.

I have, a few times, had a condom either break (and please, spare me the "I didn't notice" when the condom is a shredded ring around the base of your cock. You didn't notice! Right!) or, more often I think, slip off. This would be, in the past almost two years... maybe 4 or 5 times total.... which to me, is not an excuse to then start having bareback sex with the person, it means FIND CONDOMS THAT WORK FOR THIS PERSON.  Different people have different needs and the bag of supplies I usually carry, Oz, would cover your large, your small, your extra large, your HORSE sized, and your in between. If nothing else, I'll make you happy another way, before I venture into BBFS.

Now I'll add that in a recent thread most of the posters claimed to bring their own condoms, "just in case." I'm wondering, Oz, if your post puts lie to that. If you're HOPING the girl will only have one so that you can get BBFS for your second go round? I mean... if that happened to you once and you took that level of risk upon yourself, why wouldn't you have a small emergency stash in your wallet... just in case? Even if you stop at 7-11 en route, buy some, and then toss them afterwards so the Mrs. doesn't find out. There's just no excuse for that behavior when spending an extra three or four dollars per session can make the difference.

But you knew I would say that and I really hate playing into your hands this way Oz!!!!!

Sincerely,
Nicole

-- Modified on 5/1/2003 1:43:44 AM

200 providers a year!  You spend between $20-$40K a year on the hobby!

A recent experience with a well known provider gave me some insight into why this might be true.  We were fooling around, DFK, and pretty well into it.  She gets up briefly to go to the john, comes back, and starts rubbing up against my cock with her pussy.  As we kissed, I could swear she was trying to get me to enter her bareback.  She was rubbing her pussy lips with my cock and teasing me just at the point of entry, saying "why don't we just do it this way".  At this point, I pull back and tell her I prefer doggy.  She looks disappointed, puts on the cover and we finish that way.  But I wonder how many hobbiests/providers "just do it that way"?

with HIV and other STD's as prevalent as they are the condom manufacturing industry of the world would be fighting off a multitude of class action lawsuits for defective products.

I concede that the occasional condom is defective but not to the extent that people are portraying here. I mean hey accidents do happen, supposedly my own Mother was the result of a defective condom.

I am no Don Juan , but I have used my share in my lifetime, and never had  a problem.

I mean hey Navy Seals and other US Armed Forces use them to cover the muzzles of their weapons. Why?,  for the same purpose we muzzle our weapons, to keep undesirable things out.

Finally, I too have had BBFS but like most it was 20 years ago before I became educated about how one can and can not contract HIV.

Where did this 40% figure come from?

Who did the study and when?

Links?

i had to think awhile before i answered that poll.  if you throw in the providers from overseas i have seen over the last 15 yrs, then you can guess my response.  good thing for govt health care i receive.

That's one of the failings of e-mail and boards:  The reader is unable to clearly read the tone in the mind of the writer.  I'm sorry you took my posting to be hysterics.  It was actually an attempt at hyperbole to illustrate my surprize at such a sobering statistic.  My intent wasn't to directly correlate a BBFS with taking one's own life with a handgun, but to draw a parallel between two foolish acts.  You might also recall that toward the end of my posting, I questioned the validity of the survey.  

Incidentally, I never shriek.  I yell.  I holler.  Once, I ever screamed (that was when my son handed me a $1500 phone bill).  But I never shriek.

... a good golf membership costs more than that, and isn't nearly as much fun.

It really is my primary form of exercise... several hours a week of intense aerobic activity, plus a good amount of lifting.

O.

Regarding bareback sex with a provider.

The most memorable session I have had in my life ( I have seen about 30-40 providers) was with a young provider somewhere in Ohio. This was back in 1997. She did not have a website. She just had a couple of lines in a newspaper under escorts and I called her.

She was 19, just got out of the army she said. I was her 2nd or 3rd client because she just barely started. She was really innocent, had the most beautiful natural breasts I have ever seen, her face was really cute.

Anyway, after giving me a BBBJ that she completed part in her mouth and part letting it dribble to her chin--we rested and moved on to part II. What was really mindblowing is that she said she didn't have any condoms--it was OK to have sex but she wanted me to promise her I would pull out since she wasn't on the pill. She was really THAT innocent.

The bottome line--I declined. I got dressed, drove like a mad man to the nearest Target store, and bought a six pack of Trojans. I went back to her hotel room and procceded to have sex with her multiple times--I extended my session to 2 1/2 hours. She was so sweet and innocent and if I wasn't married, I probably would tried to get to know her on a more personal basis. She is that elusive young innocent escort that you will meet once in your lifetime and forever gauge and compare the other escorts against.

The last 1/2 hour with her was not sex but a real meaningful talk and discussion--about her safety and for others. I really talked to her at length about NEVER, EVER, FOREVER to offer bareback sex again. I don't know how long she stayed in the profession but I hope she listened to me.

I saw her again about 2 weeks later--she was carrying many condoms then. After that, I never saw her again.

That was the closest I have had as far as BB FS. Never did, never will.....

It was really the mid 90s before the whole population caught on that AIDS wasn't just a disease of gay men and needle junkies.  I remember BBFS being fairly common in the late 80s, especially if you were regular with a girl.  

Of course there were always the other STDs, but most are curable and many of us were willing to the risk.  And we felt the risk was minimal with the high end girls, which may or may not have been true.

Since that time we've all learned a lot and frankly I've never heard of a provider here in SD who would permit BBFS.  Maybe some spaced out street girls, but I don't deal with that scene and they're not the ones who get reviewd on TER.

As for the guys on this thread talking about how easy it is to get today, well, many of these are the same guys who make every provider they're with cum 3 times if you get my drift.

It's funny to me when I think back to all of the girls I happily bbf'd while in SE Asia...Phillipines, Thailand, Okinawa, Vietnam...without a care in the world, and I wouldn't even consider it with a provider now!  Come to think about it, I'm just happy to still have a stick to play with after all that!

Holy Shit!  A Bangkok go-go dancer?!  You need to drop to your knees and thank God for keeping you alive, then you need to laminate your cock and balls.

Whoa, calm down there.

Bangkok go-go dancer, bbfs: bad idea? oh yes...

But a little bit on the "fine structure" of HIV in Thailand:

There are two main levels of girls in the Thai sex industry - brothel girls, who service Thais generally (and in some rural areas, who are indentured) and who have HIV infection rates in the double digits; and "bar girls", or go-go girls, who mainly work the tourist clubs and service tourists... they also have a high infection rate, though far below that of brothel girls.

Also, it is Chiang Mai (in heroin territory) where the numbers are suicidally high... maybe 50%+ infection rate in prostitutes; Bangkok is considerably lower.

Now "Miao" (my particular girl) worked for the Kings Group, the "premier" group of go-go clubs in Bangkok, famous for model-quality girls and relative safety for tourists. The Kings Group clubs have actual amenities for the girls, such as an on-site hairdresser, makeup artist, and the like... comparable to an "upscale" strip club here. Among the rules the girls must follow: they are REQUIRED by the club to use condoms (the club provides them) and they are STD tested very often (at least biweekly... the club claims daily but I doubt that) and must have a current test to go on the floor. Violation of the condom rule is a termination offense... the club does NOT want patrons catching something.

I was aware of these policies when I elected to have bbfs, and I am sure I felt "safer" as a result.

O.

...Look on [your] works, ye mighty, and despair...

your friend Miao was required to use condoms so you felt safe. But of course she made an exception JUST for you?

... to this discussion.

But thanks for trying to contribute.

O.

I am very sure others engaged in bbfs with her. I am simply saying that it gave me a (probably illusory) sense of safety.

O.

-- Modified on 5/1/2003 7:54:00 PM

"Broke my ribs laughing - call for help"