So I'm driving around Vegas thinking well, there still seem to be quite a few people at the casinos. I check the boards and I see providers are still traveling and posting. Life goes on. Or does it?

Heather's weekly update...2 cell phones, 1 office phone, all silent. It's Thanksgiving, people are bracing for the impending Christmas shopping season so they are really being careful with money so indeed I shouldn't take the economy personally. They are cooking turkeys, visiting relatives and counting their blessings.

This is business relationship. We are there for our gentlemen friends when they need us. Moments notice, no problem. No clock watching, no problem. A dinner or lunch here and there with regulars with no charging, no problem. We get paid for a service. We are a business. That's the way some guys view this. Some view it as friendship. But is it really friendship? When we providers need something, even something small, a tiny favor, an errand or well, anything pressing, we can't call our clients. When we having financial trouble or need a male friend, it doesn't work both ways...for discretion purposes, I generally take calls. I don't make them unless the client sets that door open, very open, because I respect people's privacy and I let all my male friends know they can call me any time just to say hi or to let me know what might be up in there lives and often they do. Many are married so the relationship is defined and I'm pretty happy with that.

Now, take this scenario. Your favorite provider is doing well because the economy is kicking. You and her have a great relationship and you see her when your schedule permits. Then, you cut back or maybe stop seeing providers entirely for economic reasons. Your regular girl has always put your needs as a priority and is always there for you when need be. Now, you stop calling her. You think to yourself, I'll call her when I'm good and ready, when I have the money and when I can see her.

Poof, in the time you were dealing with your own issues and perhaps looking for a job, your favorite girl became destitute and moved away, not by her own chosing but because there was no more income to pay bills and savings became depleted within a few months because business just wasn't there.

Now you try your girl back, things are improving and you find she doesn't exist. Your favorite provider is gone. Poof. Well, you say to yourself, I guess she made good for herself and got out or I guess, she chose to quit. I'm being real direct here so I hope to gosh you don't get angry with me, but today I was just brainstorming this one way street that exists. We get paid when we get paid so we are not on the short end but I can but think that if this is business, it doesn't hurt. If it is friendship, then I guess it does smart a bit. The phone must ring. We cannot make it ring. We cannot dial. We just well, chill and stare at it. Maybe if we look at it the right way, it will start ringing. LOL

I guess there will always be many fresh new faces that will crop up to meet the need should it exist. I guess everything cycles and needs are met from both sides by the grace of God, sheer luck and well, horniness.

I do think most of us ladies are spoiled rotten when things are swinging economically and I'll be the first to say that but I'll also be the first to say that that's the way you want us, looking good, well traveled, intelligent and well, above par in all ways and that takes money. Hair, nails, tan (for the guy that wanted me tan LOL), clothing, trips, books, music, wine, cheese, gas, nice car, laundry, dry cleaning, and the list goes on...We do work our asses off and if you check the classifieds, you will see that most good people also work hard in regular jobs, whether they pay $7 an hour, work on commission or 6 figures.

I'm probably the first and only provider who will admit on this board that she is looking to supplement her formerly busty inc   with a $7 an hour job or in fact, two of them. Guys that fork over hundreds to chill with us, sometimes donate an entire week's pay. To some guys, that's a day's pay. Some used to make that in minutes in the stock market.

So, one day's worth of ponderings...dinner at Arbys and a newspaper of jobs.

Luv,

HB

EOM

Heather, you’re right, your honesty is unusual. During slow times it seems not uncommon for providers to openly post about how busy they are and how the holidays are the busiest time of year while they privately email once regular clients practically begging for appointments.

I cant say that similar thoughts to those you posted haven’t crossed my mind. Yes, I know we are paid, and that does in a way define the relationship, and our clients certainly have no obligation to us other than to compensate us for the time they choose to spend with us.

But now that I have had several regular clients contact me to tell me that they need to save for other things and I won’t be seeing them over the holidays and for maybe for a couple of months into the new year. They still want to call and talk about troubles or ideas they’d like to discuss, something I don’t mind, but is it forgotten that as much as I like to lend an ear to clients who are my friends, that I have to remain financially in tact over the holidays as well? Some have said they still want to be a friend until they have that extra cash on hand, they still want to talk, some even want to hang out. They want to save money, but still have the pleasure of my company until they can afford to pay me again.  I don’t think they are trying to take advantage, and I believe they have every intention of making appointments when the holidays are over. But how can it be so forgotten that we are not independently wealthy, and we need them to even financially make it past the holidays?

No they don’t owe us anything. That’s not what I’m saying. But as you said Heather, when you tell your favorite girl, “I want to save my cash for right now, I still want your company, but I’ll see you after the holidays” keep in mind that you may not be seeing us after the holidays.  We may have moved on out of necessity.


-- Modified on 11/20/2001 7:18:20 PM

Heather:  I am a discreet provider who has been a big part of TER; however, only in the background.  I require discretion for several reasons; and trust me, it's not because of LE.  I am an older provider with her own clientele...who I truly love. I take this time now, darling, to commend you on your openness, honesty, and for being forthright... you describe the feelings and emotions of many providers... and please know we support you...I hope YOU have a beautiful Thanksgiving!!!!!! Much support and love, Leather and Lace

Thanks for your candid post Kitana. I've had good months and bad months but God somehow seems to provide by month end. I'm not sure where he is this month...I think tending to the families of those who were killed in the bombing and that is where he should be. Clients who want to ensure that their favorite provider is around come January might want to visit her sooner. Otherwise I'll be writing a script about "The Day All the Providers Disappeared". This film would of course include a scene with Straightman saying to his wife "You are the most beautiful woman I have ever seen. I have never and would never cheat. Now, would it be conducive to get some head darling?" Next, you guys might be rating your wifes on this site. I can see it now...Pluver: "I showed up at the door but she said that since we have been married I haven't brought flowers so that I first need to join Oprah's Book of the Month Club and secondly pay her rates of $500 hourly so I joined and paid...I am much more in touch with my feminine side but nightly I wake up in a hot sweat screaming Felicia, Felecia...and I remember the days when there were "entertainers".  Them were the good ol' days..."

hb

ok, i'll go eight-fifty an hour, but i gotta warn you....i'm a pretty demanding boss, long hours - nights, weekends, holidays. insert your own bending-over-backwards yuk here...(WEG)

that is why I caution guys to look at our friendships with providers cautiously. You are "friends", but for the most part, only so long as we pay. Honey, I'm not putting you down for this, it is completely understandable and acceptable. It is not you, it is the guys who lose sight of reality and the true nature of our (business) relationship. Wake up guys, love the illusion, but don't forget to know what's true.

First let me say that I am deeply sympathetic to all of the folks that are impacted by the current financial climate. I am fortunate to still be working but throughout my life I have had utilities shut off, been unable to put gas in my car, or even  to pay rent at times.

There is a recurring theme that I want to touch on however. I have noticed many discussions over "extras" that some providers offer and whether they should be considered "business" or "friendly" services. Some things mentioned (not just on this thread but on many others) include: not clock watching, short notice appointments, occasional lunch for a regular etc...

It seems that some providers complain of customers viewing the relationship as that of "friendship" and of expecting too much. I have no doubt the in this very personal business, that some customers may get confused and this would lead to problems and have to be resolved. But isn't it simply good business to offer these extras? Lets put things in perspective...

As HB mentioned, some gents are spending a full weeks pay for a visit with a lady while others are spending a day's pay or less. This is a premium price for a couple hours of fun. Compare escort services to other professional services such as a medical doctor, financial advisor, massage therapist, plummer, houskeeper etc... All of these professions get paid for their time and the price is based on supply and demand.

How does the average price of the TER ladies stack up against these? If I spend hundreds of dollars on a regular basis (a few times a month)on any person providing a professional service,  and I spend a couple of hours directly interacting with them each time, two things might happen.

1) I would expect the person to go the extra mile to keep my business.

2) I would likely develop a casual friendship with the person and may invite them to join me for a cup of coffee or a bite to eat if it seemed appropriate.

I don't think one affects the other. If I invite my stock broker to have a cup of coffee or I call or e-mail with a funny joke, am I invading the business relationship? I guess it depends on the individuals involved and sometimes the answer might be yes but more frequently I suspect that it would be no.

In my experience, a healthy business relationship is also a friendly one but there is still a separation regarding business issues. If my cashflow drops and I am no longer making stock trades, should my broker's feelings be hurt? If I still invite him out for coffee, should he base his decision on whether I have been trading recently? Just because someone is paid for their time does not have to mean that every moment spent communicating with a client is a business chore.

It seems to me that some providors would view an invite to coffe as something that should be charged for and if they don't charge, they may feel it is a business investment and that they are "comping" the person instead of genuinly seeking enjoyment from a casual, social activity with someone who also happens to be a client.

If I develop a casual friendship with someone providing a professional service I do not expect any business related items from them for free. If someone providing a service goes the extra mile. takes a little extra time or does something special, I certainly appreciate it but that does not mean that I confuse it with friendship, instead I would view it as part of the excellent service I am paying for.

I'm not trying to attack anyone here, I just want to bring this up as something that I have noticed and see if anyone else has noticed the same... I do recognize that the escort business is pretty unique but when we all discus ethical business practices and appropriate customer behavior, shouldn't we put this topic in context with other professional services that individuals pay for?

Best of luck to everyone, the financial tide is churning but not fast enough...

-Satori-

the difference is that the service we provide involves us being paid for the quality of our companionship. Similarly, would you continually call your stockbroker for trading advice, yet tell him you have no intentions of using him as your broker any time soon, especially if you knew that the current financial climate may not be the best for stockbrokers? Would you call your therapist to casually seek advice on a troubling situation, yet tell him that you have no intention of meeting him for a paid session any time soon?

IMHO that perspective puts it more in context with other professional services that people pay for

-- Modified on 11/22/2001 12:43:13 AM

-- Modified on 11/22/2001 12:49:22 AM

A friendship with your stockbroker or dentist (or even your lawyer) is possible because there is little or no confusion between their professional services and the friendship. Of course, some people may try to take advantage of the friendship to get free professional services but that is clearly not ethical. (On the other hand, my wife had a lawyer once that she had to be brief with over the telephone because he loved to chat -- and then he billed her for the time spent in idle conversation.)

Friendship with a provider is much more difficult to establish because, as you point out, her business is providing companionship -- not just in providing sex.

The matter may be difficult, but I don't think it is impossible. I believe that I have developed a real friendship with a provider. I saw her as a client for some time. Currently I am not seeing her as a client but I may (or may not) do so again. We e-mail each other and we talk on the telephone.

My rule is quite simple. I do not impose. I gave her my office telephone number and told her that it was OK to call me. I do not call her unless specifically invited to do so. I do send her unsolicited e-mail. I don't feel that is an imposition (at least not a major one). I haven't seen her in person since I stopped being a client. I did tell her that since I only play on Monday evenings that if she tells me she wants to see me on Monday that means she wants to see me as a client and if she should tell me that she wants to see me on another evening that means that she wants to see me as a friend. She may never do that and that is OK. I am married so the friendship has limits and I am happy to let her set the bounds. I do very much enjoy it when she calls -- she is a very intelligent lady and a delight to talk with. Is she providing companionship? Yes, I think she is, but how much and when is her choice.

Basically, you can offer a provider your friendship, but because her job is providing companionship you can't pursue her without seeming to be trying to take advantage of her good nature and therefore driving her away. All you can do is let her come to you, if she wants to.

Just my $0.02 worth.







-- Modified on 11/21/2001 12:56:35 AM

Ok, Ok, I do sympathize to a certain degree due to the special nature of this business, but does it really make sense to take on a $7/hr job when simply dropping your rates to say $250 or even (gasp)$200 an hour might just do the trick (pardon the pun)?  Come on, do the math.  Full time at $7 an hour is $280 a week, BEFORE TAXES.  So lets see...40 hours working at, undoubtedly a service job, not really known for great benefits, and if you're really good, after a year they might raise you to $7.50!  Or, you could drop your rates that are slightly more in line with the current economic reality, and still command an hourly salary greater than that of roughly 95% of the population.  I completely understand that this business requires a certain amount of preparation and image, but tell me an industry that pays really well that doesn't.  And the grooming, the clothes, the nice car (etc.) are pretty much things everybody wants regardless of whether or not the people we come in contact with on a business or social level "expect" it.  You are right, these things do take money, but consider, for example, another profession that historically has a high hourly salary, attorneys.  7 years minimum higher education, the potential of $100,000 or more in student loans when completed, yes, the expectation that one look presentable, which involves $80 haircuts, $1600 suits, the nice car, etc., and even an hourly rate of $350 hour comes out to about $100 an hour or less once overhead (office space, salaries to staff, income taxes, and yes, taking clients or prospective clients to sporting events or dinner without billing (its called "marketing")) is taken into account.  This same analogy can be transferred to any number of other professions and vocations as well.

The point has been made that with dropping rates leads to higher volume, but if the choice is between some volume and no volume at all, well, that's a choice that needs to be made by each individual.  And 5 hours a week at $200/hr. is $1000 in tax free income, $52,000/year, which puts an individual at roughly 40% higher than the national median after-tax income, and everybody else had to work 40 hours + that week, spend extra time to look good and try to have a life with the remaining hours of their week.

Once again, I'm not unsympathetic, but in trying economic times everybody takes a hit, and I have as much sympathy for those who can no longer afford to see providers if they so desire as I do for those who provide.  There's hurt around for everybody.  I just think providers do have a certain amount of flexibility if they're willing to admit it.  The illusion that some seem to have that dropping rates will not make a difference is IMHO simply not so.

Well said Mathesar, you've described a framework for the friendship to work. I'm sure this is a frustrating topic for many people because it seems like a catch-22 for both providers and clients.

-Satori-

I think you and G2 make good points about prices. I also think that prices have been over inflated similar to the stock market. Prices are based on what people are willing to pay - this has nothing to do with the value of the service.

(now ladies, please don't take this as a slieght, I'm not saying that any individual providers are not worth every penny they charge, I'm just talking about the economics of it all)

When the economy was booming, there were many people that would not think twice about buying a thousand shares of the latest hot stock, buy a new S.U.V., drop a few $$$$ for an hour of fun, etc.... The "booming" economy of the "dot com" era was based on false principles that made alot of people rich for a short time but the structure had to crumble.

Now that the economy is returning to a more realistic (and long term maintainable) state, people are having to adjust their lifestyles and services accordingly. Just as it was very painful for the stock market to adjust (massive lay-offs, business closures etc...) I think we are also seeing a similar adjustment taking place in the escort market.

I understand all the reasons providers want to maintain the premium prices but doing so when the prices are based on an unrealistic economic situation seems like a straight path to a new career. I've heard providers suggest that reduced prices has not made the phone ring, but in general, I have not seen reduced prices in this industry. There's a very good change that we will never see the (fals) economic boom that we did over the past few years. If providers are expecting to return to this type of scene, I think they are being unrealistic.

(IMHO) The providers that want to stay in business will be lowering prices and finding creative ways to "add value" to their service (see my suggestions on adding value a few message topics below). I can't speak for other consumers but I do know that lower prices really would make me a more active hobiest. I can find a comfortable price now but it is for providers that are below my standard of preference.

Think about it, if us gents could see the top of the line ladies for the same prices of the "imported" ladies that have super high volume, who do you think we would choose? Why do you think these imports have such high volume? It's due to the prices. It's because we have our urges and can't always afford the a-list prices!

We will continue to pay for service, even when money is tight, but we as consumers are making more realistic choices based on our financial situation. The high end providers have an opportunity to decide whether we drop our dollars on them or someone else. If they choose to leave the business instead of adapt, I certainly understand but I have little sympathy. I would simply look forward to the top of the line providers that will move in to take their place and offer more reasonable prices.

-Satori-

In my experience dropping rates does not boost business, but does decrease the quality of client, as much as I hate to say it. And yes I have tried it.  Cutting rates also seems to breed an environment where clients will expect to be able to push you to do things that you are not comfortable with, or allow them to severely over-extend their welcome because as one client told me, “I thought you’d do what you gotta do when you’re obviously desperate for money.” I will NEVER forget that statement. That’s what provider’s dropping of rates seems like to a certain number of clients, not a good business measure as they’d view it with other businesses, but a person who is desperate who has suddenly given away all the balance of power in a sexual relationship in terms of deciding what she will and will not do.  This environment makes it a little different for us than for Ford and Chrysler.

This is not about price related  pride, or dignity, or ego, G2. But I have noticed a frightening trend when I’ve cut rates in the past for whatever reason. A larger number of clients than you might think take it as an “Oh, she’s desperate. Now the previous rules don’t apply. Now I have the upper hand and can get her to do this, or that, or something else. She’s desperate, I’m calling the shots.” Attitudes like that are where my patience runs out. And, that would be what would cause me to leave this business, not because my pride won’t let me cut my rates, but because under those circumstances, I simply won’t enjoy this anymore, and at that point I can’t stick around. I’ve been there, I’ve seen it, and if you can tell me how to prevent it, I’d be more than willing to cut my rates. But I sure can’t figure it out.

Okay, so let's say I drive from Vegas to LA and book a room at a nice hotel for a client. The room cost me $150 plus tax because it's in a prime neighborhood, the one you'd actually leave your BMW in. I buy wine, some snacks, a candle or two and add on $40 worth of round trip gas for driving to LA from Vegas and I'm looking at an investment of about $230 at least. If I charge $400, I make $170, drive back to Vegas and pay some bills. If I charge $200, I'm $30 in the hole. Now, I used to be able to see you at my place and cut down that $230 considerably but since the economy forced a move because you didn't come see me for 2 months, my overhead goes up. There is no point in renting a place on the hope of bookings in a bad economy. You see how the food chain works? You stop visiting period, we make adjustments. How would you like to drive back and forth between cities to try to make a living...I've done the same thing with SF absorbing $280 hotel rooms because that is what the client/s wanted...close to his work, prime area. Go on the argument that incall would save us quite a bit but if you stop coming, the rent doesn't get paid and we have to move. Then you want to come visit again and we have to work 5x as hard to make the same thing work that used to be cake.

The lack of spending overall will have a terrible effect on the economy. I have a favorite waitress at a local breakfast dive. She is a glorious person with a kindheart. I am hurting financially but I have not stopped frequenting her table. My $2 tip a day is a stable for her and many more like it and her rent gets paid. I have tried not to cut back on things that would hurt an individual person. Cutting back on getting my nails done at a high volume nail salon that still is very busy isn't that significant but cutting back on tipping the guy who washes my car after an oil change is not something I am going to do. I'm still going to tip him like I always have. I may even give him another buck if I know he's not getting the business he used to. It doesn't hurt me that much in the long run and it helps him stay afloat.

HB

Talking about money, it comes and it goes but I think the most important thing is that you are happy with what you do. Hell, if women would pay me to have sex with them I'd be wearing a permanent smile on my face....
I myself can't say that I enjoy doing what I do but if it pays the bills...

I do sympathize over your situation.  Yes, times are tough for everyone and all a hobbyist can do is hope his favorites will still be around when things pick up.  G2 had the best take on the situation (he always does IMHO).

Being college educated in Journalism, and a "pre-adult industry" career background in banking, trading, hotel management, marketing, why limit yourself to $7/hr jobs?  Is the market so soft that even job offerings for those positions have dried up, even for someone with experience? A quick search on monster.com comes up with some good matches.  I could see you in a better job working same or better hours than you would be in two shifts at 7/hr.  Don't sell yourself short, dear.  My regards, with luck and love for the future.

Heather your post is enlightening, interesting and insightful. The economy powers your industry. When there is more disposable income we play more. As the econmy tightens the extra cash evaporates faster than ether on a warm table (don't ask me how I know ether evaporates fast...). No matter what I need a roof over my head, utilities, clothes, transportation, insurance, board and a hair cut now and again. Then there are familial obligations. Recreational spending comes last and is first to be cut. This is where cost comes into play.

Let's say I had $1200 a month to play with. Now it's like $500. Before I would see about one lady a week. I still see about one lady a week.... Different ladies though.... Sadly. I don't like to bargain with a person to perform service for less than what they ask. I got hammered once for being a cheap bastard. I'm not and it hurt. So I quit seeing that person but I learned that if I ws hurt over it, imagine how she felt when I bit on her. So I can rarely see the women I really like. But rather than hurt their feelings by asking for a lower rate I stop calling. Because i can't afford to see her. My problem. I thought. I see now that as more of use have have cash flow problems, it becomse your problem as well. Bummer. "Survival of the fittest" is a tough deal all 'round.

I've always been one to offer support to anyone who asks. Especially open to friends I've made here. Look, if a woman lets me feel special, I owe her a little more than payment for service rendered. Let's say a lady needed a ride somehere or saw stuck and needed dry cleaning picked up and she called to aske me for a favor, I'm going to jump at that.

I feel it adds to my already amazing experience. I do not call my friends (in this business) too much, always concious that time I consume is precious time. I also don't call when I'm needy. Mano, you give more than you get already. I do welcome calls from my friends. Dry cleaning? Sure! Down and want to go shopping? You bet... say 1/2 hour? McFlurry or Jamba Juice crave? I'm on the way. I sincerely feel that if I were to ask for these favors from a lady I feel is my friend, she would reciprocate. That feeling is what makes it okay to ask.

For whatever reason, people are attractded to one another beyond the matter of business. Reasons I stopped calling are many. Mostly I'm embarrised I can't afford to see you and I don't what to consume the one resource that is irreplaceable for you: Time.

Were you working then? Recessions tend to scrape the bottom first and then begin to cut into the old fat and new meat; in the last recession of 1990 through 1994-95 business cut to the bone. I pray this one isn't as bad, but I think California is going to take a heavy hit. Just like last time, California is a hard and expensive place to do busines. Couple that with a drop in tourism and watch out.

The problem Kitana talks about is real to a certain extent. If you have a rep for a certain price and dramatically reduce price, the dumb schub who couldn't afford you suddenly gets a dream shot and feels he has more power than before. It's his "one shot" and he is going to make the most of it. The difference we will all see shortly is that this schlub is going to be unemployed soon (if not already) and therefore totally out of your market.

There are also ass*oles in every walk of life and I'm sorry you've come into contact with more than your share. Guys are stupid when it comes to communicating with a woman. Every damn one of us. Sorry.

This thread resonates with me not only because of my interest in this hobby but how it closely approximates my job in the hospitality industry.  The airline pricing model is not about discounting, it is about charging higher prices where demand allows it.  Similarly for hotels, the last thing hotel owners want to do is reduce rates.  It can take hotels 2+ years to make up for room rate cuts.  As mentioned in Kitana's posts, when a business lowers its rates it typically attracts a different customer.  This recession that people speak of, has been affecting the hospitality industry since October/November of 2000.  The events of Sept 11th merely accelerated the "crash."  

Prior to Sept. 11th, most hospitality businesses were attempting to avoid discounting by increasing the value offered for the same - or even higher rate.  This appeals to the same customer, hopefully encourages them to continue spending money and to a certain regard helps build a better relationship with those customers.  This could be applied to providers by offering a package deal - perhaps 90 minutes vs. 60 mins, or incall in a different environment, or something along those lines which give more value to the same customer you were previously seeking.

Now post-Sept. 11th, many businesses are desparate and need whatever cash they can generate to pay the bank or make payroll.  This is when they discount in an attempt to find any business they can and accept the consequences of this new customer and the future difficulties of trying to raise rates again in the future.  

Sorry for this rambling overly simplistic explanation, but the topic certainly struck a chord with me.  These are extremely difficult times for both of our industries - the good news is that the best operators/providers will always survive and even thrive in the long run.

fast approaching...  Thanks HBXXX, Kitana, Mathesar, Satori, G2 and everyone else bringing this plight to light...  Hope we can all make it through the season okay... Lets all try to be kindler and gentler to each other knowing we are all hurting/suffering inside one way or another... Lets be good to each other... Take care and a happy holiday to you all.

-- Modified on 11/22/2001 12:50:39 AM

I consider price to be a filter that separates those who cruise the streets from those who look for a safer, in-call situation.  If a provider lowered her rate from $400 to $200, I would worry about who was seeing her, just as Kitana would worry.

The funny thing is, I have been trying to get call-backs from several providers and my phone isn't ringing either.  they don't know me, so it must be because they are too busy.  Go figure.

First I must wonder why you think you must be the only one who has existed in a white collar environment with a real job, or has a degree from a real university. Believe it or not, there are actually providers who have chosen this, enjoy this, and actually might qualify as having some real worth, even by your apparent standards. I'm not using this hobby to rise out of the trailer from which I came, and neither is Heather, from what I understand. Your position that pretty much says "wait until you grow up and get out into the real world, little girl" is entirely misplaced, based on some assumption of the alleged collective dismal background of the ladies in this hobby, and franky, it's a bit insulting.

I don't think I've ever seen a series of posts of yours that have not only been incredibly angry, but also full of false assumptions and missing the point, intent on attacking someone else's ideas instead of trying to understand them. In fact I'm about ready to yell foul and complain that someone else has stolen your username because you seem to have thrown out your intuitive, intelligent and understanding manner and suddenly traded it for the persona of a complete a__hole!!!!

Let me clarify though G2. As I said I have no problem lowering my rates for established clients. This is something I have done before under certain circumstances. When I say  GIVE AWAY ALL THE POWER IN A SEXUAL RELATIONSHIP and spoke of my client's comment, I was talking about clients interpreting a drop in rates as an opportunity to push someone into doing things of a sexual nature that that person does not feel comfortable with and has previously disallowed. When he thought I should "do what I gotta do" although I am not going into detail,HE WASN'T TALKING ABOUT A BUSINESS DECISION TO CUT MY RATES, OK????? THAT IS NOT MY ISSUE, WAS NOT MY ISSUE, AM I COMMUNICATING HERE NOW? And this is coming from my perspective, someone who doesn't have a large list of no's.

THIS is the attitude I've encountered. The good hearted regular client can suddenly turn into Mr I now have the power to take her to Greece or anywhere else I want to go, safe or not, because she must be desparate now. I can book her for an hour,go in there and pound her 20 times in 4 hours if I want, she'll take it, she obviously needs my money. In his mind, he holds the power now, not just as a consumer, not just according to supply and demand, but because he thinks my rate cut signifies a desparate finacial need that gives him the power to decide what acts he expects for his $$$,  regardless of if he knows that I feel uncomfortable performing them. You really find out how inherently good hearted some people are when they think you must be hurting for cash and you now need them. And this issue has not just happened with one established client when I offered a cut rate, oh no, to varying degrees of course. Just because YOU may not feel that way and interpret a rate drop that way, please believe me that it's much more prevalent than you may think. I really like to think the best of people, but my experiences in this issue have showed me a definite trend. And no, I'm not saying that they are physically forceful or anything like that--but they suddenly become very, very pushy. And that is where I do dig in my heels, forgive me if I'm wrong for doing so in a declining economy!

Cutting my rates is not a problem. I've said that, I guess you don't believe me. But, doing so successfully without the other issues I discussed would involve moving to a different city.

But please whatever's going on with you lately, can you bring the old you back? I used to like reading your posts a lot. But lately I've been reading them and saying who is this guy?













-- Modified on 11/21/2001 4:56:54 PM

I wouldn't have even been legal in 1990! lol Not every damn one of you is stupid in communicating with women, and even then, bad communication skills are something I can handle. The problem is that it is a funny human trait though, or so it seems, that more people than I'd like to think really change when they seem to think that a drop in rates means a situation to take advantage of and to be able to force other people to bend their rules and cross over the line of their personal comfort level, not just a good business decision to benefit both parties.

In my case cathartic would be more like it at this point lol

-- Modified on 3/30/2002 7:02:14 PM

or just completely out of my friggin' head!

-- Modified on 11/22/2001 12:52:20 AM

Kitana, Nosc, you are not alone re the effect of lowered prices in a nondiscriminating way.  

I have always respected G2's input. Here is my point, G2, and I think NOSC and even Kitana said it also...the human factor in a good client-provider relationship which you apparently do not see evident per current outward, advertised pricing DOES STILL exist, Just quietly and selectively.  Privately, as probably did exist with the providers you knew.  (My guess.)

I feel that we ladies need not shout "discount" as a blanket statement.  Some of us are extremely selective in volume and clientele, so we must be also in our discounts, not advertising a come one come all blue light special.  our service would certainly suffer and cease to be what it is known and expected to be...(not to say that everyone wants FF, either).
I have experienced what Kitana has stated, and what Nosc has.  No,  I DO NOT want more volume (always preferred lower volume), so I do not advertise lower prices; in fact, I never advertise prices.  

There are clients who I dearly treasure, and I have lowered for them, in fact, always have done it, according to their individual circumstances.  These men never ever put me down for my rates, only when I sensed something wrong,  we talked. These men already had built a relationship and somehow enhanced my well being as a person to the p oint where I wanted to keep them as the  quality people in my life that they are and I will always know them to be. God forbid if they are having a financial struggle, they are the type of people, well, like you described yourself, G2.

I suspect, no I know, that many of the ladies here do give the guys a break, unbegrudgingly.  But  we are not florence nightingales (sorry, Nosc, lol) or mother teresas with endless resources.

Before this recession hit, I never stopped seeing posts about how high prices are.  Jeez when I did charge 150, people were trying to price me down.  it never stopped.  then  the men who did get my price down, would either not show up, or else would stay for 2 hours for the 1 that they contracted (and, uncoerced, uninvited). And yes  I was flattered that they wanted to be around me, but flattery does not take care of my needs: rent, sleep, personal time that I will never get back.  

It just makes me wonder ... dont both sides contribute to a situation:  wish we could all weed out the ripoffs on both sides, interesting to see where we could progress.

If all clients were like certain gents on this board, and all providers were like certain ladies, we could actually effect a transformation...heh.   Well, yes  recognizing is half the battle,  and yes, water does seek its own level, eventually.

I am never ceasing to be amazed though, at how much courtesy and kindness go a long way in both directions.

Anybody, it's not Easter yet, but let's hunt for the good?  It may look bleak but there is beyond what is manifest.  Or dare I speak?

xoxo

ff













-- Modified on 11/21/2001 9:32:06 PM

To me this thread is no challenge as to who can form the best argument or some silly game of tactics, and I don't view the things that I experienced to be so trivial as to qualify as a simple exercise in debate. I'm sorry you see it that way. I was trying to explain something to you that I thought might shed some light on the fact that there are more issues at work here than just someone complaining that her ego is too big to drop her rates. I was trying to share some things that I really experienced that I thought might add something to this thread and show you that these changes aren't necessarily about being spoiled or egotistical. It seemed to me like you were interpreting my words to mean I was talking about ego, when I wasn't.
I thought that from some of your previous posts that you might actually want some clarification as to what I really meant or what my perspective and the basis for it is, but you don't. Forgive my bad judgement in this area. But since you've strangely and suddenly become such an angry person, I'll save you the irritation of adding any of my thoughts or experiences to anything that you've written on this board. I'm sorry if my addition to this thread made you even more angry than you already are. Just forget I ever mentioned anything that contradicted what you obviously feel so furvently is the right way to look at things. You're right. Forget it.

Emotionalism meet irrationality.

-- Modified on 11/22/2001 1:04:25 AM

and still add to a discussion thoughts that may be different than yours? I'm not being condescending and patronizing to you G2. I said that I've always respected your intellect and opinions for as long as I've read this board. But your mind is made up about things and that's fine. I don't expect to change your mind about anything. At this point I don't even expect you to take the time to even mentally process anything that I've shared on this topic or to even try to understand how my experiences have shaped a different perspective. I said, just forget it.

But the only thing really wrapped up here is you in your own hostility. There is no hidden meaning behind what I've written here G2.  Why can't you just accept some things at face value sometimes, especially when thats how things were meant.

Thanks for summarizing everything in such a succinct and positive way. We needed that

-- Modified on 11/21/2001 9:14:34 PM

eom

You make an excellent point.

The woman I see regularly has just recently offered to cut her rates when I explained to her that due to a combination of my travel schedule and some immediate financial concerns, I would not be seeing her for a bit.  This is somebody who I've known for a while, who I feel very comfortable with, and who I believe is trying to keep clients, rather than having to go out and find new ones.

I took her offer as willingness to share my financial reality (and I presume that of other regular clients as well) while keeping the relationship going.  Definitely a welcome gesture, and one that will tend to ensure that I stick around when times are better.

MisterG

I think this explains a trend I've seen in the business.  Many high quality women just leave when business takes a downturn.  That's somewhat understandable in a business where "going downscale" has huge potential consequences for one's health and safety.

But the fact is, when the "easy money" goes away, those who are only interested in the "easy money" kind of work will be forced go away too.  When the "easy money" comes back, they'll be elsewhere and a new generation will come along to claim it.

I've seen this before, in downturns much more temporary than this one.

MisterG

Your message just serves to point out that we're still somewhat in a bubble, and while it continues to deflate unevenly, things are going to be tough for many of us who are still being forced to pay last years prices, while getting only this year's incomes.  Eventually, all those costs you speak of:  The hotel, the food, the other amenities, even the rent on the incall place, will drop down to reflect the realities of the business world, not the endless hopes of the past 4 years.

That's already happenning in San Francisco, where I recently stayed at a top hotel for under $100.  Two years ago the cheapest room would have been close to $300.

Slowly, and painfully, prices will adjust downward.  The ones we pay and the ones we are paid.  Until then there will be a world of hurt for lots of people.

MisterG

Some of us predicted some months ago what the gist of this thread discusses: hard time and after reality sets in the disapearance of some providers and some issues (discounts, and reductions in some cases).  It's a fundamental enconomic response.

Things are probably going to get worse and they may last for quite some time - especially in California, a state ruled by one-party with some liberal members that are absolutely hostile to business interests (except the disastorous tech industry and "Hollywood".  They'll attempt to solve every problem on the backs of business and we'll see a very sluggish recovery.

Moreover, we'll be paying for 9-11 in many subtle ways for a very long time which add a significant drag on economic growth; the long lines at airports and using the automobile as a substitute is a drag on producitivity.  So is everything related to homeland security.  Let's say this means a 1/2% decline in the productivity growth we'd otherwise realize.  Well, factor that into the pricing model of the stock market and that mean the projected growth of the S & P index might be 20 or 30% lower than what was touted just a year ago.

It won't be pretty.  The providers with long standing relationships (or those who work to form them in the future) that hang on to them (and, if necessary, on a selective basis offer extra time or reduce rates a bit) will survive more readily than high volume, rapid turnover types.

Those that can connect with a "regular" (or more than one) that is there 2 days a week ought to be willing to cut a lot of slack.  In the 1991-1993 recession (that was the worst here in LA we went "in" in 90,stabilized in 94 and began moving out in 95)I saw the most attractive provider I've ever been involved with 2 a week for 2 years at 30% below her "market" or "stated" price because I was an absolute source of steady income.  Shoot she never would have raised her prices for me as we came out of the recession, so I raised them myself.  Some of us do care a whole lot about the welfare of the ladies with whom we form all kinds of different relationships.

But a caution to the ladies about today's economy:

It ain't gonna get better fast.  It's going to be real tough for a while.  Develope "clients" and keep them - there won't be nearly enough "customers" - and learn to understand the difference and how you must behave to benefit by it.

Times like these cause a lot of us to think of alternatives to this business when before there is no way I would have wanted to slow up on what I have enjoyed immensely. I think most ladies would agree that we are greatful for the men that have chosen to entrust us with their time and funding. You guys may not see the affect that your contributions and emotional support have on we ladies. Do ladies share that with you?

From a $ standpoint, since I began this biz, I managed to pay off some sizable debt of my own, pay off my ex's to protect my credit, move my family to CA, feed, cloth and house 4 children AND my parents, get a divorce, put money down on a minivan, payoff a set of tits, 2 computers and invest in things that would help me learn acquire new skills to make me more marketable in the workforce should a slowing in this biz occur. The funny thing is: I actually enjoy doing this and I wasn't ready to slow down now. I wanted to continue earning for the family and put myself thru my last 2 years of college to complete my bachelors. That is entirely possible eventually but the recent economic downturn will definitely mean a lot of us have to put plans on hold. But so is life. I'm going to continue shuttling back and forth between LA and Vegas because most of my business is in LA.

From an other than $ standpoint, I definitely learned a lot through being a companion and I had the opportunity to break some inhibitions and explore my fantasies one on one. If business doesn't pickup, I'm going to explode. Pity the poor men that do continue to see us ladies. We've got 'em penciled on the calendar in permanent ink and we're panting at the mouth as they come up the walkway.

LOL

HB

I am sorry that people are hurting as a result of the economic downturn.  In following this discussion a number of interesting points have been raised by all parties.  It is unfortunate that G2's comments have been removed from the discussion.  I just have a few comments related to specific statements made throughout this thread.  

Most financial planners tell us the best way to survive tough times is to live a little below our means and put away at least six months living expenses as insurance against job loss, economic downturns, emergencies, etc.  I believe Carlspackler was alluding to this in his post.  Sometimes the saving is easier said than done.

Another area that needs a little bit of defining is what is a quality client.  Most of the times I've heard this term it seems to be defined as someone willing and able to pay my rate on a frequent basis without being difficult to please.  I hope there is a little more to it.

I can appreciate the dilemma over the fallout from cutting rates and do not have an easy solution to the problem.  I am not surprised by the behavior of some of "the good hearted regular" clients especially if the provider's rates are much higher than average.  Some of the people who are in the position of making enough money to pay for higher priced escorts on a regular basis did not get to that position by being nice guys.  Since in business weakness is a signal for them to attack, the same reaction gets carried over to other areas of their life.  This is probably more indicative of their true nature than the more pleasant person you had seen before.  I have seen variations of this theme many times both as an employee and a self-employed consultant to a number of companies.  

The idea of getting a low paying hourly or salaried job does not seem like a solution in the current environment.  When companies lay off employees It does not mean that all of the work that the laid off people performed has disappeared.  What usually happens is that the person making an annual salary of $30,000 a year and who used to work 45 hours per week must now work 60 hours per week for the same salary.  That is a 25% cut in hourly rate.

Hopefully if some of you do decide to change rates in an effort to attract new customers TER will help minimize some of the problems you have experienced in the past.  I do not think that most of the men who read the reviews in TER expect that if 15 reviews of a provider indicate that she only performs CBJ that they will be the one to get a BBBJ.

This is just my 2 cents worth.

I am writing this at 115 in the morning, so I may sound a bit off, but here goes.  Guys and dolls, after reading through the whole discussion, from top to bottom, I came to several conclusions.  There are guys here who would do what they can to help out their favorite providers, and providers who would be willing to give her gentleman a break on pricing.  HB, I understand where you are coming from, if you drop your price, will will landlord drop his?  Probably not, inflation is part of this economy, if not, where's the nickle for a can of soda?  
In this down economic conditions of ours, there are still money in the banks, in Money Market accounts just waiting to jump back into the market when things turn positive, hence the wild swings in the market, up 200, down 150.  
True things will get worse before it gets better, but the light at the end of the tunnel is getting brighter, the rate cuts by the All-mighty, Fed. Chairman is starting to coarse through the economy.  
Somebody here will still get a nice gift from me this year, with a little surprise in an envelope at Christmas.  No I am not looking to curry any kind of favors, but truth be told, I do not want to see her move away on account of a decrease in business. Good thing I did my shopping early, I shopped the day after X-mas last year for my gifts this year.  Call me what you want, but I plan ahead.  

So here is to the HB, FF, and NOSC out there, we are here to support you, need anything, just ask and we will do the best we can to help.

Neutrogena

Stumpy, I deleted my posts because I felt they were being accidently misinterpreted by some, and deliberately misinterpreted by others to serve their own purposes.

Since my intention wasn't to touch a nerve or cause anybody anguish, I chose to delete them from the discussion.  

It's easy for people unaffected by tough times to be glib or condescending, but the reality is that there are a lot of otherwise good people hurting right now.  They're not low lifes, or people you wouldn't want to see as clients if you were a provider.  In many cases they're just regular, quality people whose circumstances have changed by forces beyond their control.  For example, the Boeing engineer laid off because his company didn't get the contract for the Joint Strike Fighter didn't just become a pariah.  But he did just lose his financial security and faces an uncertain future and perhaps a future of diminishing options and expectations.

While I don't claim to understand their reasons, I find the insensitivity by some on this board regarding this issue to be extremely distasteful.  Perhaps a sign of immaturity, or maybe just a disregard for the plight of others as long as they're doing OK.  In any case, I find it a very unattractive phenomenon.

However, like you, I believe the seeds for the recovery are already in place, but there is usually a lag of many months, or even a year, before the economic benefits filter down to everybody that had been adversely affected.  In the meantime, a little compassion for our fellow man can go a long way toward helping everybody through this difficult period.  Especially since you never know when, or if, it could be you that finds yourself in financial distress.

-- Modified on 11/25/2001 2:18:25 AM