TER is well established at this point. Rules do not need to be what they were in the beginning when TER was brand new.

First, I would start with John.Galt's "Suggestion that may help limit bogus reviews" further down this page, but I would go slightly further. As he suggests, I would grandfather in all existing VIP memberships, and new VIP memberships could be started only by purchasing a month's membership. VIP memberships could be maintained by writing reviews as at present. (Anyone seriously interested in this hobby can afford a one-time $20 fee for VIP membership.) I don't have strong feelings about lapsed memberships, but I would be inclined to require purchasing a month's membership to reinstate also -- in that regard I would go further than John. I would also only have two classes of membership as at present.

Personally, I think the "Juicy Details" section does more harm than good, but it is obvious that the community is seriously split on this subject. I also think that Staff sees the "Juicy Details" section as generating revenue and is very unlikely to consider removing this section. Therefore the real issue is to maximize the good and minimize the harm from this section. In other words, since we will never agree to eliminate the "Juicy Details" section are there changes to review policy that would improve the current situation while retaining this section?

I think that Staff in conjunction with dilligent readers is doing a good job of tracking down and eliminating false reviews. Clearly, they never can be completely eliminated. It is a job that requires vigilance on everyone's part. What is proper to say in the "Juicy Details" section and what should be left unsaid is also an issue that will generate endless discussion and I doubt that there is a solution that will satisfy everyone. I don't have anything to suggest that I think would help with these issues.

However, I think that providers should have full access to their own profile and reviews (including the VIP only information) and that there should be a "Provider's Comments" page attached to the profile. (This is not equivalent to a free VIP membership for providers since -- if technically possible -- it would give them access to only their own profile and reviews.) I think the rules for the "Provider's Comments" page should be about what they are for the discussion board (no outing of anyone's real identity, etc.) but within those rules the provider should be able to say what she wants about her profile and reviews. (This would be similar to a credit report, where if one can't get something removed one at least can state his or her side of the matter.) Like the "Juicy Details" you would have to have VIP membership to read the "Provider's Comments" page. This is a community of both clients and providers -- at least I hope it is -- and I think this would help maintain a balance. Also, a statement by the provider would certainly help tell us what she is like so I think clients benefit too.

Finally, I have a very real (and MAJOR) concern about the rejection of reviews because they are not explicit enough. There is a very real possibility of introducing a systematic bias into a provider's overall scores by doing this that cannot be compensated for by any amount of statistical analysis. I don't think it will hurt VIP membership sales if some reviews are not very "juicy". The people typing with one hand can search out the really juicy ones. I do think it is of the highest importance for TER to maintain an image of being objective and unbiased. Among serious hobbyists I think that is TER's most important asset. Lose that reputation and this board becomes another TBD. I think the widespread concern about rejection of insufficiently juicy reviews indicates a danger of this happening.

Just my 2¢ worth. I hope that both those who agree and those who disagree will present their opinions in a constructive manner. There are a lot of good minds who read these boards and perhaps between us we can reach some kind of consensus that Staff will be willing to consider that will reduce the diviseness this issue causes in the community.

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Interesting points Mathesar--your post has provoked a fair bit of thought on my part that I will need to sort through.  Off the top of my head, however, I will say that I'm not sure I'd agree that the Juicy Details in general cause more harm than good. I will reiterate that, as someone who types with both hands, I've read many reviews that told me more than I needed or wanted to know.  On the other hand I've also gleaned some useful information from some of them.  I will also say that your "provider's comments page" idea is a good one although I'd imagine it may be technically difficult to set up.

Clearly false reviews are a problem.  But it's usually the Juicy Details section that gives the fake reviews away.

As you can see I'm in two minds--I'll get back to you.

-- Modified on 2/19/2002 10:07:08 PM

I think you are wrong on the Juicy Details section. One of the main reasons to have it is of course revenue. Personally I hope Staff makes piles of money and keeps up the good work. Another reason to keep the Juicy Details is that it is the only way that we have of weeding out the fake reviews. The Juicy Details are what set this board apart from its contemporaries.

I don't get my jollies off on reading the reviews and could do without the more prosaic ones. However I do find it helpful to know what the reader actually thought of the session and his impressions. As we all know, the numeric rating system is and has been abused numerous times. The only way to know what went on in a session is to read the details. If the Juicy Details disappear from the reviews so will my membership as well as many others.

As for providers seeing their own reviews or getting free memberships, I don't understand this attitude. If it is okay for the hobbiests to dole out the money for a membership then the ladies can do so as well. They are the ones making a profit off this business not ourselves. Keep the ladies comments off the reviews. If they want to rebut a review then they are allowed to do so in any one of the discussion boards. If her complaints are justified, Staff can do as they see fit. Arguments and debate belong on the discussion boards, not on the review pages.

Cheridan's post on the gen'l discussion board (2/15 "Not Enough Juicy Details") generated a great many responses.  I pretty much stated my opinion & the reasons for them in my response then (2/17).  My feelings in that regard remain unchanged after reading what all others had to say.  It's redundant for me to repeat them again here (this is rather long anyway), & I'm sorry but I haven't the knowhow to provide a link.

Personally, I this is a subject where it would be impossible to make everyone happy.  Forgetting for a moment about any potential technical problems with the idea of a comments page, it's a compromise of a sort.  Compromise can be a good thing, but not always..& sometimes a compromise only leaves BOTH sides unhappy.

It's also potentially a Pandora's box.  While most of the ladies I've met have been wonderful & certainly wouldn't be like this, unfortunately there are those (that I will not name names) who would likely (IMHO)use the comment page to manipulate the reviews to their benefit.  I think there's been enough evidence in the past to suggest this would happen.  Also, would this create a subconscious influence on some reviewers?  And unless the review was removed or modified, what was originally said by the reviewer would still be there for all to see.  

Additionally, are the gals who responded to that post representative of the feelings of the majority of providers?  This might be a case where, as with a mulitude of other issues in life, those who are not happy are the most vocal.  I don't know...just raising the question for consideration.  And to any of the ladies reading what I just said, I mean absolutely no disrespect to you or your opinions.  While I can't place myself in your shoes, I believe I can emphasize with your position to a larger degree than you might think.      

And are the details being confused with the profile specifics regarding service?  In reading all the ladies' responses, I'm not really sure if it's the fact that they do this-or-that in the profile which they find objectionable, or if it's how graphically & in poor taste some of the details are written.  I go back to my statment in the original thread about the way things are said being of great importance.    

If it's the profile issue, then it needs to be compared to the details to insure that it's accurate.  But without the detail, how is that possible?  And that's not just up to the gals to do, it's mainly the job of us guys.  I know first-hand from having submitted about 2 dozen problem reports that TER is very responsive in this regard.  

Even thought some reviews are very tastefully, I do believe there's a problem with the written word, but I don't believe there's a real answer.  Yeah, some guys would appear to be canidates for a course in Remedial Written Expression...but who's going to teach it?  And those most in need wouldn't attend class anyway.  TER probably doesn't have the human resources to reject reviews until they are rewritten to not resemble something copied off the wall of the mensroom.  But IMHO, that would be the answer...even though it would be a monumental job of editing & likely still wouldn't make everyone happy.

There are always going to be some guys who are ass-holes, just as there are some gals who practice deception.  That's human nature & we're not going to change that no matter what we do.  But I think these are in the minority on TER, & I don't think those of us who are decent, honest people have much problem in identifying the others.  

It's been said before, but when a guy writes a review he IS revealing a lot about himself at the same time.  In a perfect world all reviews would be honest & with sufficient detail, but written in such a manner that was not demeaning.  I'd like to think that my reviews can be trusted by the guys, but also that if any gal were to read each & every one that she'd still be happy to see me....at least that's the way I attempt to write them.

I have no answers...just my opinions.

Some readers may feel its a waste of time to click on a review and not read what they like (explicitness). TER (I LOVE TER) seems to think that the answer is to make "EVERY" review explicit, this way readers are sure to get what they want. Sound thinking...but...

The "challenge" with this system is that non-explicit reviews dont get posted. Reviews are important to providers. One new review is often worth a 100 or so inquiries, most which result in appointments. If a girl is getting reviews but they are not getting posted because they are not explicit enough, that is not fair.

A guy may pass up a girl just because she ONLY has 5 or 6 reviews when in reality she has 10 or 12, the other 4 or 5 never got posted. By not posting non-explicit reviews you are penalizing the provider (and the reviewer).

I think..."THINK"...I have the answer to explicit reviews

A RATING SYSTEM!

RATE the reviews:
"G" = General Information with no explicitness
"PG" = A little more racy
"R" = Explicit
"XXX" = VERY Explicit

Put the rating on the same line where you would click to see the review. This way the reader "KNOWS" what the review contains (explicitness, general info, etc) before they click on it and begin to read and they wont be disappointed if its not what they like.

Movies have a rating system, even music has a rating system now, why not reviews?????

my 02. cents

ps. I actually agree with you that providers should NOT have access to our own reviews via a comment section. It would be too easy for providers to "skew" or "manipulate" reviews to their favor. THIS IS YOUR BOARD (The Hobbyist), with your reviews of us...we dont need any imput. Un-reputable providers would surely find a way to take advantage of it.

sable

Is it just me or is something rotten in Denmark? Making people pay won't eliminate bad reviews but it will sure help. It's real simple: everybody pays the same for regular and vip.
Thanks for the reviews; I'll try to watch out for the grifters.

I agree with Sable, it would be opening up a huge can of worms if STAFF let Providers have a comment page about each review.  WE all know that if a review was posted and it wasn't true, the provider emails STAFF and lets them know and the Providers also post on the Discussion boards also.  I have had a review pulled over a month ago because a member posted a review and he hadn't even seen me. But then again I didn't go off half cocked and post on the Discussion board about it either.

I like Sable's idea about the Rateing System.  There are a number of gentleman that I know that have had reviews denined because of not enough explicit details.  Its just not in them to write it.  Again Like Sable said, WE like these reviews posted explicit or non explicit.  WE want them all posted.  And yes some men emblish what they write and some are pretty damn honest.
But you gentleman are intelligent enough to read between the lines and know whats being said.  Am I right?
Just as Greywolf said: "There are always going to be some guys who are ass-holes, just as there are some gals who practice deception.  That's human nature & we're not going to change that no matter what we do.  But I think these are in the minority on TER, & I don't think those of us who are decent, honest people have much problem in identifying the others."  (I like the way this man writes)  

As I stated on that LA Board, I don't think TER should have free membership to Reviewers that post Reviews. I think alot of the fake reviews would be few and far between.  Incentives?  yes maybe, Free, inexchange for reviews NO.  As I and a few others have said, whats $50 a quarter, you all pay $$$ an hr.

IMHO,

RED







-- Modified on 2/20/2002 4:47:52 PM

Maybe someone can provide assistance, since I've never understood how to link to a message and when GND gave me the number of a post once I couldn't access it.  Is this another Mac thing?

-- Modified on 2/20/2002 5:53:28 PM

We are all grown-ups, we dont need to be "WARNED" about explicit content. The Rating would be to INFORM. There are clearly two sides to this issue...Guys/Gals who like Explicit Reviews and Guys/Gals who dont need explicitness and/or dont think its important to a review.

The point of a Rating System would be like the label on a can of soup. The label on a can of soup tells you what is IN the soup before you open it, a rating on the reviews would tell you what is IN the review before you click on it.

Explicitness is clearly important to a lot of readers, when they see an "R" or "XXX" rating they KNOW what they are about to read and dont waste their time reading something they are not interested in. Other ratings ("G" "PG" and "R") would allow readers who dont care either way to see reviews of ladies that would otherwise never be posted because they are not explicit enough.

I just think its unfair to the nice gentlemen who took the time to write a review (though not explicit) and the ladies who "make a name for themselves" with reviews, to have non-explicit reviews NOT posted. (boy, that was a wicked run on sentence wasnt it?) LOL!

my .02 cents

sable

Just a couple of thoughts.

VIP MEMBERSHIPS:  

The entire design of TER was to give useful information to the public for free.  A basic member can search, find if a provider is a rip-off, see how the guys rate her, participate on the message boards, text chats, etc for free.  I never want to force anyone to “pay” to be a part of our community.  This goes for the same for VIP membership for reviews.

The majority of the VIP members are by reviews, only a small percent pay.  The purpose of TER was never to “Get Rich.”  We really are here to help the community.  The membership fees we collect go to the bills and keeping the site running. As many of you know, your first VIP membership was by submitting reviews.  If we made you pay up front, you may have never joined us.  This does not help our community.  I really don’t want to change or restrict new people from joining our site by forcing them to pay.

VIEWING EXPLICT DETAILS
I absolutely do not agree that the explicit details are “not important”.   I had the programmers change the TER code so if you are a VIP member and don’t want to see the explicit details, we can turn them off on your account.  Any takers?  Everything else will work; just you wont see the explicit details.  Email me at [email protected] and I can make the change for you.  Just a note, the details page is viewed over 1 million times every day.  

THE ROOT OF THE PROBLEM.
Sweet sable hit the problem on the head.  When a review goes up, no matter how little is in the explicit details, the phone rings.   She stated, “One new review is often worth a 100 or so inquiries, most which result in appointments” Any smart provider would want every review approved.  That is of course, if it is a positive review.

WHAT DO WE LOOK FOR?
I think there is a HUGE misconception of what we look for in the explicit details.  We do not rate them by pornographic content.  We are looking for one thing:  Do the explicit details tell me what happened?   If they do not, then we reject it.  “Had a great time, would see again” does not cut it.  

EXPLICIT DETAILS HELP PREVENT FAKE REVIEWS
Every single review pulled from TER, by the provider contesting it, was pulled because of the explicit details.  Something they mentioned in those details gave clues to the provider that the review was fake.  The details from other review she has, support her claim.  Example: how can a provider contest “I saw he and it was a really horrible session.  I would never go back and don’t recommend anyone else does either.”   Can she prove she did not see this guy?  Can she discern who this guy is?  NO.

HOW BAD IS THE PROBLEM?
Sweetsable posted “A guy may pass up a girl just because she ONLY has 5 or 6 reviews when in reality she has 10 or 12, the other 4 or 5 never got posted”  This is completely untrue. In the entire history of TER, only 7.69% of the reviews are turned down for Explicit details.   Over 50% of those contained less than 80 characters in the explicit details section.  

IN FAIRNESS TO ALL
We give providers an opportunity to contest any review they do not believe is true.  We will also respond, to any provider, why a review of hers was turned down if she knows the reviewers name.  My email address is [email protected], if you have questions, ask.

If you are reading this post and have specific questions, email me and I will be happy to go over it with you.

-- Staff

If you don't want to see the Juicy Details, simply don't log in as a member. Non-members get the ratings system and contact info, just not the details.

Staff has enough to do already without rating the reviews. Also, does a G rated review count as much as a XXX review towards credit for membership? Too many rules will mess up this site.

Please just keep the Juicy Details as is. I would also like to see the elimination of the reviews for credits system, but that is a different argument.

Silly me didn't hit sent or refresh and I see STAFF posted before me. This is what happens when you do a million things at once.


My views have changed and bear with me as you see why:

First Mathesar, Yes, TER is well established at this point. But rules still do need to be what they are as in the beginning when TER was brand new. For the basic reason that there are new members everyday and we can't expect them to become seasoned right away as all you wonderful gentleman have. IT takes time to learn TER and understand how this all works. I know it took me a few months of sitting and reading before I understood a lot of it.  When you first came to TER you didn't join right away, some of you took advantage of the free membership in exchange for 2 reviews OR maybe some of you did join right away. But what kept you here was being able to use TER and have a free membership and after time most of you did join and are now VIP members.  IF it wasn't for the free membership you wouldn't be here now and paying VIP members..

We all have to weed out the good with the bad in everyday life why would TER be any different?  As you first came to TER it was the Juicy details that sparked your interest in the providers.  We can't control good reviews or bad ones, honest or embellished ones.  That’s why we have the boards so we the Providers can comment on them.  We don't need a special area in are profile to do that.  Even know there are a lot of very honest Providers there are some that would take advantage of that idea and just cause more harm then good.

About the Juicy Details: This is a way that you all pretty much can tell if the Provider sparks your interest and if you study reviews you know the consistency in all her reviews.  What you might not know is that this is a way also for STAFF to check out when there is a complaint if the Review is false.  STAFF goes through all the reviews and can pretty much tell if what she is saying is true or not.  So hence the explicit Details and they will stay.  If their weren’t explicit and a Reviewer just says: "She was good, went the extra mile and I will see her again” And they all looked like that how would STAFF be able to compare it if they all sounded the same? Whom do you believe?

What you all may not remember is how TER looked to you when you first joined.  All the rules are in place for a reason.  Sure we are old hands to TER now, but there are new members coming in everyday and if these rules aren't in place for them how do they become the wonderful members you all are now?

The only members that don’t get an offer of free membership are the Providers. But Gentleman, if we Providers didn’t have TER then we wouldn’t have work.  I do not mind paying my $50 a quarter.  

IMHO,

RED


-- Modified on 2/21/2002 3:55:02 PM

Changing the name of the section might help eliminate the "HUGE misconception" you refer to. "The Specific Details" might be even better than "The Explicit Details" (which can be read either way) but either would certainly be better than "The Juicy Details" given your explanation of what the section is all about.

I have become convinced that my idea of a "provider comments" page was a bad idea -- that it would simply amount to giving providers free advertising and that this site is not the place for providers to advertise. The objections that I heard (both posted on the board and privately) were pretty convincing. Well, discussion is what these boards are about and as long as we listen we can all learn from each other.

I would like to thank Staff for giving us the information that they shared in the response to my post. My major concern was that large numbers of reviews were not getting posted because they weren't "juicy" enough -- very different from being not "explicit" (or "specific")enough, I agree. To hear that only 7.69% have not been posted for this reason and over 50% of those contained less than 80 characters makes me feel a lot better.

Once again, I would like to say "Thank you" to Staff for listening and responding.

-- Modified on 2/21/2002 5:09:13 PM

Staff:

Thanks for your response.  While not everyone may be happy (an impossibilty) with your explanation or action you intend to take/not take as a result of the "controversy"...it seems from my POV as fair & even-handed as possible.

One other thing that might be worth a mention by you (& this might seem redundant to some) is to point out for the benefit of the ladies who haven't been able to get reviews posted, that all the guy has to do is complete the profile as he sees fit & then only mention those things in the details without the need to be overly graphic about it.  True, there might be some guys simply still wouldn't do it...but if they knew the lady would be comfortable with that there might be at least a percentage who would be willing.  I appreciate Sable's concern, & this might help some.  While it may seem a little unfair for the gal to have to go that far, it doesn't seem that much of a burden if the recency or number of reviews is important to her.  And "no"...in my mind that isn't manipulating anything.  JMHO & others may disagree.

Mathersar:  I think I like your suggestion..in fact, the more I think about it I'm sure I do.  So much of what we've been talking about with this issue seems to boil down to a simple choice of words...making that change might be less offensive to some--& every little bit helps.

Red:  Thanks for posting your opinion.  Your words seem well thought & come from a dispassionate view on a somewhat emotional issue.

I think you maybe missing her point. It's not to "protect" someone from reading an explicit review, it's so that someone will know ahead of time how explicit the details are. It's also to allow staff to approve reviews that currently would be rejected as "not enough explicit details". I for one have had reviews rejected for this reason when I told all that occurred during a session. I told what we did when we met, during foreplay, and during the intimacy. But I didn't get descriptive of what happened, I only told what happened/what positions. I left out things like "she moaned OMG repeatedly" and for this it was rejected. So now I just write the review, if it's accepted fine, if not fine. But that also means that nobody will learn from my experience with that provider.

If Staff wants to keep membership days as an incentive, perhaps they can post the reviews that are currently rejected as not explicit enough but give fewer days as credit.

pt

Take this stuff/hobby way to seriously.

Granted, I don't want to get ripped off either, but to spend so much time and effort on this seems frivolous to me.  This is supposed to be fun.

Just my $0.02.

Respectfully,


Talisman

Staff said:

HOW BAD IS THE PROBLEM?
"Sweetsable posted “A guy may pass up a girl just because she ONLY has 5 or 6 reviews when in reality she has 10 or 12, the other 4 or 5 never got posted”  This is completely untrue. In the entire history of TER, only 7.69% of the reviews are turned down for Explicit details.  Over 50% of those contained less than 80 characters in the explicit details section."  

Got it! :0)

I LOVE TER! This is the only board I participate on. THANK YOU TER for providing such a great forum for hobbyist and providers.
I HAD SO MUCH FUN "jumping in the fray" on this issue! :0)

sable