This was sent to me this morning and was so beautifully written that I just had to share it. I read every word. ~ Sedona


Note:  This message originated with Keith A Fournier.  He is a constitutional lawyer and a graduate of the John Paul II Institute of the Lateran University, Franciscan University and the University of Pittsburgh.  He holds degrees in Philosophy, theology and law. He has been a champion of religious liberty and appeared as co-counsel in major cases at the United States Supreme Court.  He is the author of seven books and, along with his law practice, serves as  the president of both the "Your Catholic Voice Foundation" and  "Common Good."

"The Passion" I really did not know what to expect.  I was thrilled to have been invited  to a private viewing of Mel Gibson's film "The Passion" but I had also read all the cautious articles and spin.

I grew up in a Jewish town and owe much of my own faith journey to the influence. I have a life long, deeply held aversion to anything that might even indirectly encourage any form of anti-Semitic thought, language or
actions.   I arrived at the private viewing for "The Passion", held in
Washington D.C. and greeted some familiar faces.  The environment was typically Washingtonian, with people greeting you with a smile but seeming to look beyond you, having an agenda beyond the words.

I moved out of Northern Virginia over three years ago and realized at that moment that I did not miss this kind of approach at all.  I live in southeastern Virginia now, among people who are  neither geographically nor constitutionally close to "the beltway" mindset or manner.  The film was very briefly introduced, without fanfare, and then the room darkened.

From the gripping opening scene in the Garden of Gethsemane, to the very human and tender portrayal of the earthly ministry of Jesus, through the betrayal, the arrest, the scourging, the way of the cross, the encounter with the thieves, the surrender on the Cross, until the final scene in the empty tomb, this was not simply a movie; it was an encounter, unlike anything I have ever experienced.  In addition to being a masterpiece of film making and an artistic triumph, "The Passion" evoked more deep reflection, sorrow and emotional reaction within me than anything since my wedding, my ordination or the birth of my children.  Frankly, I will never be the same.

When the film concluded, this "invitation only" gathering of  "movers and shakers" in Washington, D.C. were shaking indeed, but this time from sobbing.  I am not sure there was a dry eye in the place.  The crowd that had been glad-handing before the film was now eerily silent. No one could speak because words were woefully inadequate.  We had experienced a kind of art that is a rarity in life, the kind that makes heaven touch earth.

One scene in the film has now been forever etched in my mind.  A brutalized, wounded Jesus was soon to fall again under the weight of the cross.  His mother had made her way along the Via Dolorosa . As she ran to him, she flashed back to a memory of Jesus as a child, falling in the dirt road out side of their home.  Just as she reached to protect him from the fall, she was now reaching to touch his wounded adult face.

Jesus looked at her with intensely probing and passionately loving eyes (and at all of us through the screen) and said, "Behold I make all things
new."   These are words taken from the last Book of the New Testament,
the
Book of Revelations.  Suddenly, the purpose of the pain was so clear and the wounds, that earlier in the film had been so difficult to see in His face, His back, indeed all over His body, became intensely beautiful.  They had been borne voluntarily for love.

At the end of the film, after we had all had a chance to recover, a question and answer period ensued. The unanimous praise for the film, from a rather diverse crowd, was as astounding as the compliments were effusive. The questions included the one question that seems to follow this film, even though it has not yet even been released.  "Why is this film considered by some to be "anti-Semitic?"

Frankly, having now experienced (you do not "view" this film) "the Passion" it is a question that is impossible to answer.  A law professor whom I admire sat in front of me.  He raised his hand and responded, "After watching this film, I do not understand how anyone can insinuate that it even remotely presents that the Jews killed Jesus.
It
doesn't."   He continued, "It made me realize that my sins killed
Jesus."

I agree.  There is not a scintilla of anti-Semitism to be found anywhere in this powerful film.  If there were, I would be among the first to decry it.  It faithfully tells the Gospel story in a dramatically beautiful, sensitive and profoundly engaging way.  Those who are alleging otherwise have either not seen the film or have another agenda behind their protestations.

This is not a "Christian" film, in the sense that it will appeal only to those who identify themselves as followers of Jesus Christ.  It is a deeply human, beautiful story that will deeply touch all men and women.

It is a profound work of art. Yes, its producer is a Catholic Christian and thankfully has remained faithful to the Gospel text; if that is no longer acceptable behavior than we are all in trouble.  History demands that we remain faithful to the story and Christians have the right to tell it. all, we believe that it is the greatest story ever told and that its message is for all men and women.  The greatest right is the right to hear the truth.

We would all be well advised to remember that the Gospel narratives to which "The Passion" is so faithful were written by Jewish men who followed a Jewish Rabbi whose life and teaching have forever changed the history of the world.

The problem is not the message but those who have distorted it and used it for hate rather than love.  The solution is not to censor the message, but rather to promote the kind of gift of love that is Mel Gibson's
filmmaking masterpiece, "The Passion".   It should be seen by as many
people as possible.  I intend to do everything I can to make sure that is the case.

I am passionate about "the Passion."  You will be as well. Don't miss it!
 _____  



-- Modified on 10/6/2003 5:59:26 PM

Thank you. What an eloquent review. I have heard a great deal about the film, principally that it was anti-semitic, inaccurate, etc. I'm glad you posted this very well written and thoughtful piece.

I hope this nobility of thought, that is sensitive to portrayal of a particular minority group in a movie, would expand to all groups.  Whether the work is applied to non-fictional or fictional work ...  

Unfortunately, I have rarely seen this being exercised ...

There's no argument that the Romans guided by the Jewish priesthood were responsible for the Crucifixion of Jesus.  I find the Anti Defamation League's concern somewhat laughable in the face of the historic facts.  I can't envision non-educated bigots swarming to see a movie that they have to read.

There is cause for concern when these Passion Plays are "played out", no matter what the venue, although I suppose people might not understand what it is they're getting themselves into when buying a ticket to a Saturday night movie. (More on that in a moment.)

The Roman's offered an "out" on the eve of passover, and the Jews opted to spare Barrabas (sp?) instead of Jesus.

Why the need for an extremely violent (probably close to the New Testament) version of a "Passion Play" on screen?  And in dead languages with English subtitle?  

I suppose because normal Passion Plays are so awful.

Here's what should be considered and has already been argued.  People of today ARE calling this movie anti-semetic.  JEWISH people. Who else counts?

And an argument on that side is that rather than the viewer feeling like one of the people that crucified Jesus... THE HUGE MAJORITY... The VIEWER is put in the position of feeling FOR JESUS and Mary MAGDELENE... a position of TWO?  Maybe FOURTEEN or TWENTY people felt at the time of crucifixion at most?

For if MOST people felt the way the viewer ends up feeling, the sadness and grief of Jesus, the heartfelt thanks that "he died for the sins of all" or "that my sins killed Jesus" AT THE TIME... well, then would he not have been spared by that foresight?

Maybe most of the people at this viewing that was written about thought Jesus was crucified with normal nails, not spikes almost an inch thick and a foot long.  Maybe they didn't know his legs were broken.  Maybe they didn't know the crown of thorns were made of a vine in which the thorns were about two inches long and that thing was shoved onto his head. Maybe they didn't know the cross weighed over a hundred pounds. Maybe they hadn't been described what a crucifixion really was all about... that Jesus probably couldn't take in a breath due to his body weight hanging off of his arms... Maybe they thought it wasn't so violent and that's why they couldn't speak after SEEING it on screen.

They're moved by violence?  Hooray.  

I can see why a Jewish person would be offended at the claims that this was the son of God~~the only way to get to Heaven.

It's the definition of Christianity to proselytize, God by no other name, than Jesus.

Religion and Politics, not topics that engender harmony.

Don't forget to vote.

Elise [email protected]



-- Modified on 10/6/2003 8:54:43 PM

No one can accuse you of not being willing to express your views, that's for sure.

I am not as versed as you seemingly are in religious history, but I will say, from a moviegoers viewpoint, that I am a bit skeptical about a review from someone who would be as favorably biased as I feel this reviewer was.  It would be like Jeff Spicoli reviewing "Endless Summer 2".

I will wait and see what established reviewers have to say before I decide on whether I see this one or not.

And thanks for the bit about voting...would be nice to see a significant majority take part in an election for a change...especially this one.

Why in the world would I strive to be deep when commenting on a laughable "review" of a violent albeit truthful depiction of the crucifixion of Jesus?

It was merely my description of why this movie should be THOUGHT about in a different light than the reviewers lighthearted and "lovely" viewpoint.

I save my "depth" for other venues.

Love ya bunches, Ness!  Hatred and fear will give ya cancer!

Elise [email protected]

I go all out in everything I do!!

I don't stop at the first orgasm, either, Yours, or MINE. HEHEHE!!  OOOOPS... that doesn't matter any longer. TEASE!

Anyway, it's probably the principle reason I'm ME!!

I get in all sorts of trouble, too!

Love me or leave me, but never question where I'm coming from!! *grin*  Don't you hate opinionated women? *giggle*

Now, come on and get spanked, Sparker.... *Big Smiles*

Elise [email protected]

and express yourself articulately.

my .02

 The Historical revisionist have long been a primary plaque of the Jewish people.why?Because they want to remove the Holocaust from ever happening and any mention of them being persecuted.Simply put,the truth is written in stone, and those who have in modern times tried to rewrite history[revisionist]because of their hatred of Jews in general is equally appaling.So as most of you know that is not only unbelievably  alarming to the Jewish people but to the overall wave of humanity that is concerned about any future genocides.That being said,"History" needs to stand and left alone.Which means you cant borrow from history when it supports your lifes interest,or race,or whatever,and then turn your back on an event that indicts your responsibilty and your role in history.
    Personally, I find it quite compeling that anyone who stands to gain from keeping history recorded as is would want to bite the hands of history that has fueled a virtual wave of human love and empathy.And like Pilate said "what I have written I have written,"

Honey, re read my post.  I think you just enjoy disagreeing with me, Ness. Cool if it's based in anything other than disagreement.  I don't think you even understood or read my post.

I merely stated that his review was laughable~as far as his statements regarding anti-semetism.

His backround is clearly outlined, it was based in christian (Franciscan would be more towards what we know as Catholic) philosophy. U of Pitt is probably where he got his law degree.  He's not Jewish.

How about we let Jews and Israelis have this debate?

I happen to think Jesus was cool and that the movie is probably an accurate version of the Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John.  I've read the Bible backwards and forwards in a dozen different versions.

Jesus happens to have been a pretty cool dude in my estimation.  He stopped the stoning of a prostitute by saying "He that is without sin cast the first stone."  

That woman was his disciple without being counted as one, without being able to write her own accounting as to what occurred when she was with him.  She was arguably his most loyal follower.

The Torah, The Koran, The Bible.. They are very much more similar than they are different.

So are we.  Does that scare you?

Elise [email protected]



-- Modified on 10/7/2003 11:15:00 PM

I do hope that you don't take personal offense that I read more into the review than what you did.

I have this desire to critically think, and educate, especially where religion and culture is introduced.

I can honestly say at different periods in my life the people who I've called my best friends have presented in the humanity of African American Agnostic, African American Christian, American White Catholic, American Black Catholic, Somali Islamic, and Israeli Jew and an assorted mix of unannounced.

Every one of them had a heart and tolerated Crazy ME!  I've been very blessed in my travels and associations.

Elise [email protected]

I don't understand.  The reviewer said he wasn't Jewish, but that he grew up in a Jewish part of town.  Also, why do you say that Jews and Israelis should debate this?  What does that mean?  Should Jews debate with Israelis (American Jews vs. Israeli Jews?  Also, it is a well documented fact that "passion plays" throughout history have been the cause, or impetus, of major pogroms where thousands of Jews have been killed; in fact, wasn't it just recently that the current pope stated offically that Jews were not responsible for the death of Jesus.  I haven't seen Mel Gibson's movie so I can't comment on it, I am only commenting on ElegantElise's remarks.

went to Utah did the tourist thing, got the lectures at the temple.

In High School I attended some of the early morning Mormon classes with a girlfriend to kill time before school.

I have a hard angle on that entire topic since they didn't allow blacks into their fold until quite recently. Actually considered them a "mark" or something akin?  Meaning that Blacks weren't allowed into the special parts of the church and therefore not allowed into the kingdom of Heaven.

So, I find people that are taught/educated in a manner that is exclusive of others to be somewhat tainted hard to swallow.

But I'm open if you are, Ness

If I read your book, what book are you going to read for me?
How about:  "The Culture of Make Believe" by Derrick Jensen

Elise [email protected]

You insinuate that you have a problem with Mormons because of your understanding (although incomplete) about their position on blacks (I have Mormon friends and worked in Utah a few years in the early 90s)....

Now, do you have the same problem with any other religion that specifically singles out ethnicity as a criteria to admit full "membership"....like certain sects of judaism? According to my jewish contacts, their sacred books are quite harsh against gentiles, and even go so far as to write that we "gentiles" are to be treated as an "issue of horse".

I have never heard of "sacred texts" like that; actually that's not true ultra-orthodox Jews consider wine not Kosher for Passover if a non jew touches it (rediculous).But concerning the Mormons view of Blacks; that's not analagous because the Black people are memebers of the Church who are being discriminated against (not being able to serve the Church - I think) wheras the ultra-orthodox have a ridiculous view towards outsiders, not their own people.

and even posted a question mark about my understanding about their policies on blacks.

Then, I stated by way of explanation on why I haven't educated myself on Mormon Theology, However I was certainly open to reading the book that you suggested, even though I've got my reservations about the Mormon culture.

But asked if you would be open to reading a book suggestion of mine in return.

I AGREE WITH YOU that in every religion there are SECTS that go full out and WRECK HAVOC with their takes on the Holy Books.  I'm not sure what that has to do with anything.

Do you want to argue Jim Jone's philosophy on Christianity? It's rather a moot point.

That's what non-theological religious studies teaches.

It's why i thinke we could all benefit from a higher education class in religious studies, to learn that Islam isn't Sadam Husseim, Osama Bin Laden, Al Qaeda, nor is it any one sect, there are dozens of sects under the two main splits shiite and sunni....

Again, I offered to gladly read the book that you brought up.  I'm OPEN to other people's opinion, whether I feel that the SECT they were brought up in is exclusive (not a good strike for a religion in my opinion) or not.

Are you game to read the book that I suggested?  Or did you want to just throw in a criticism so that you wouldn't have to do your work, too? (Not that I might not pick up the book you suggested on my weekly trip to the public library in any case~~you choosing not to be educated outside your comfort zone won't hamper me~it was merely a challenge.)

Elise [email protected]

American Jews and Israeli Jews ~Jews of whatever nation are the only people in my opinion that have the right to say what is anti-semetic or not.

Growing up in a Jewish part of town, may make you sensitive to this or that, but I don't believe that it gives a person the right to speak for a group that heor she isn't part of.

Which is why I say it's a debate for Jews.

Sorry to be confusing on that, My best girlfriend is Israeli and I sometimes just assume think of her and she's a Jew, but I forget that there are Arab Israelis etc....

My Bad.  Thanks for calling me on that confusing piece of writing.

I lived in a Latino part of town, but I would NEVER assume to be able to speak on what was anti-Latino.  That's for the Latinos to decide.

Also, It's been called to my attention by a scholar on these topics that Jesus did not have his legs broken.  Again, My bad.


Elise [email protected]

In a nutshell, Mormons always had blacks join its church (even before slavery was abolished) and take part in all of its ceremonies. However, because the leadership roles and responsabilities within the church (from bottom to top) are under the men's stewardship along with its ceremonial duties, black men were only given partial authority/responsability and therefore could only perform a limited role. In the late 60s, these barriers were completely removed and the Mormon church has since been color blind. In fact, there are black mormon authorities in the higher ups of its leadership in SLC......

I will check out your suggested book. As for Talmage's book, it is VERY VERY VERY long. The first few chapters are boring, dry, and deal with Mormon doctrine. However, when he gets into Christ's life, you will be fascinated by its all around detail. I understand that it is used as a reference by several denominations for its incredible account of His life.

I understand that Mel Gibson consulted many clergymen from various Christian denominations for his movie. I really wonder if he consulted Talmage's book in any way or form... I sure hope so.

HOwever that you state ahead of time that it is BORING doesn't bode well.

The book that I suggested for you isn't boring, however it is also about 700 pages.  Should be a quick read since the topic is interesting and doesn't get bogged down in alot of drudge.

I'll get back to you when I'm done.  UGGH.  Just what I wanted..
To read a book written about another exclusive group.  Hope it's all you promised about Jesus.  Like I've said,  I've read Matthew Mark Luke and John as well as the letters of the Epistles about a billion times.  Don't know what John Smith (is that the guy's name?) and his followers could present that would interest me at this point.

I will be interested to find out where I got that mistaken information about the mormons believing that the skin color of blacks was a mark by God that didn't allow them into Heaven.

I was really lead astray somewhere along there.. I will be doing some research on that when I stop by to pick up my copy of the talmage book.

I would hate to villefy a group that doesn't deserve it, although their continual dismissal of women as leaders in their church is pretty um... well it speaks for itself.

BUT I'M OPEN...

UGGH  Review to follow.

Elise [email protected]

Just don't get discouraged with the first few chapters. The detail of his life, down to every nuance, is pretty striking.

Now, in some way, your conception about skin color being a "curse" in the minds of Mormons (and all judeochristian faiths for that matter) is somewhat correct in a way, but NOT in the hateful racist tone a la "jessejackson/chavez/bustamante/aclu", and there certainly wasn't the notion that blacks were "like an issue of horse".... whatever the reasons, blacks have NO barriers within the Mormon church and are quite progressive.

Joseph Smith: he was no dumby. He was frightfully accurate in regards to predicting many things that have indeed came to reality this century... if it really was prophesy or not, I certainly do NOT know, nor do I wish to engage in any debate on the topic.

I've never heard of another church, JudeoChristian or otherwise other than Mormons (and I've admitted I may have misinformation) DIRECTLY not allowing black members because of the belief that GOD had MARKED their skin and thereby shown to all people that they were NOT ALLOWED into the glorious kingdom of Heaven and also not allowed to worship in the MORMON faith.

I know that today blacks are allowed into the church, however I don't know that a black men, for instance would be allowed as high of service as a white man.

I don't care about prophesies... I'm a very precient person myself.  It's merely instincts.  We've ALL got the ability if we allow ourselves time to sit and think quietly and ponder what is happening around us instead of being self centered.

I'll go research that the RACE issue on my own and I'll get back to you with a correct, educated discussion.

Other than American Society's disenfrachisement of black's in all walk and manner of life, (Jim CROW) I can't imagine what you're thinking when you are talking about other religions.

It has been said that Sunday noon is the most segregated hour of the week, YET I can't think of any religion that has stated rules DISALLOWING people based on race.

My belief was that the MORMON CHURCH had to VOTE to get blacks accepted.

I don't know of any other religion that needed to do this.

Disallowing members because of their beliefs or their practise is one thing, but Disallowing members based on the color of their skin? RACIST.

Again, I could be totally misinformed.  I'll be getting informed rather quickly.  I visit the library on a regular basis. I've got a book by Talmage to go check out. *wink*

Elise [email protected]

I know little about the Mormon Church, but a quick Google search reveals that your understanding about the Mormon church and Blacks is apparently correct.

Here's a bit more detail on the whys and wherefores regarding blacks and Mormonism, from a May 1998 Washington Post article.  The issue seems to be that, while most Protestant religions formally gave up the black spiritual inferiority viewpoint many decades ago, LDS hung on until 1978.

Black Mormons Resist Apology Talk

By Bill Broadway
Washington Post Staff Writer
Saturday, May 30, 1998; Page B09

"...The legacy, recounted in a 45-minute presentation at the association's annual meeting, was a onetime belief that blacks were spiritually inferior to whites and should be excluded from priesthood, a position achieved by most Mormon men. Mormonism has no paid clergy and relies on a laity with broad-based powers to lead worship and perform such sacraments as baptisms, ordinations and infant blessings...

Like other denominations, Mormonism -- organized in 1830 -- once taught that blacks were descendants of Cain, Adam and Eve's son who was banished after murdering his brother Abel, and of Ham, Noah's son who broke a taboo when he looked at the nude body of his drunken father. In what became known as the 'curse of Ham,' Noah condemned to slavery the descendants of Ham's son Canaan.

Mormon theology added the belief that blacks embodied spirits that had fought on God's side in a celestial battle of Good vs. Evil but had performed 'less valiantly.'

Powell said that the church, which has about 48,000 Washington area members, rejected its earlier teachings on race two decades ago, when leaders proclaimed that 'all worthy male members of the Church may be ordained to the priesthood without regard for race or color.'"

http://www.lds-mormon.com/lds_race.shtml

NO backpeddling, but your selective notions that Mormons had a monopoly on racism is a bit misguided, and it does not seem that anything written here would change your mind.... you have made up your mind that Mormons are the ONLY religious group that is racist.

Before making the statements you make Mormons, perhaps you could read up on the history of judaism (there is NO more ethnocentric group on the planet, go to isreal as a gentile and you will REALLY feel like you are being looked down on), baptist/protestants (the slavs weren't exactly endeared by their Lutheran brethren...), and catholics (ask the indians and arabs about their treatment by the catholic priests)..... plenty of bad behaviour to go around.

I've been on a rather extended stay in Israel.  Toured the entire country, although my hosts wouldn't let me close to Gaza, nor would they allow me to hang out with any Bedouins.  I stayed in a Kibbutz as well as spent a weekend in the high end tourist town of Eilat and got to scuba dive with Dolphins.

Pretty much saw every place that Jesus "walked" or as I sometimes say .. every placed that he likely peed. (He did that, didn't he?)

Lived in my best girlfriend's family home's bomb shelter with my daughter about three blocks from the Mediterreanean in the town of Herziliya.  Named for Joseph Herzil, You'll find He's an interesting guy as well.

My best friend is an Israeli Jew.

Yeah, the racial tension there is palpable, HOWEVER, the issues there are a bit more serious than either you or I can pretend to be able to understand or have solution for.

I didn't feel any racism directed at ME.  There is just general FEAR of strangers.  Imagine New York 9/11/2001 happening time and time again.  People are WARY.

I will point out that CULTURE and RELIGION aren't separate in the Middle East the way they are here in AMERICA.

I will also point out that there isn't probably any other culture than the Jews that has been so persecuted in so many different periods of history.

So again, I find your analogy falls a bit short.

Nowhere did I state that MORMONS hold a monopoly on racism, I did state that I'll educate myself further and other than the period of JIM CROW era of racial separatism, I'm not familiar with any  American religious group that held as a case of its written tennants dimissal of a group on the basis of skin color. (Which I may have been mistaken about. I didn't want to google such important information.)  Please do educate me on another American Societal Religious Group Practicing recognized religion that would prove your point.
You know, other than the Knights of the Ku Klux Klan.

I'm no religious scholar.  I just happen to be a rather voracious reader, blessed with a better than spotty memory.

How about we get to our reading assignments? This is growing rather tiresome.

You still game?

Elise [email protected]

Oh really?? I always thought it was the simple issue of the IRS purported withdrawl of the Mormon Church's tax exempt status for not allowing blacks to reach the higher levels (i.e., discrimination??) which eventually "resulted" in the Mormon Prophet's "revelation" that blacks were now welcomed into the higher ranks. I always thought it was rather ironic, myself. But then again, maybe it's just me.

Thanks for that little tidbit of information, Sparker!!

I'm really going to have to work out a way to get in some mutual Spank time....

Elise [email protected]

The IRS had targeted MANY groups, and the Mormon church was just one of many on the list.  The Mormon church (like many Christian groups) is a constant target of the IRS. The sad thing about this list is that it was mainly Christian organizations they seem to always persecute. Interestingly, groups like aclu and rainbow coalition were absent from this list, as were other far left political action groups.

There is a major IRS center in Ogden, UT (it used to be one of only three IRS centers in the USA); the Mormon church (like any organization) has its zealout haters who will do anything to get at them.

This is no different than the federal black judge in Alabama who had a personal vendetta against judge Moore......... or the black judge here in San Diego that rebuked the boy scouts (the rebuking should be up to the plainfiffs/aclu, NOT the judge) for "free" rent, despite the fact that the land was donated to the city by a citizen who conditionally turned it over to the city *IF* it were used for good public deads...... or like when Babbitt (former AZ governor and Clinton cabinet member) who hates Mormons had the federal government force UT to set aside a good chunk of desert land for "conservation" (Mormons were hi smain foes in AZ).... and so on.

There are many examples of the Feds being selective in who they persecute. Go ask Willy Nelson.

when a citizen donates land to a city *IF* it were to be used for good public deeds, and then later on, we find out that and entire portion of the community is excluded from participating in these good public deeds based on their sexual orientation~~

Well, Joe Citizen that donated the land deserved to have his initial wants protected.

Kudos to the Judge (why did it matter that he was BLACK, NESS?) for rebuking the Scouts.  They've got the Mormons behind them to bankroll them.  The Mormons aren't hurting for cash...I'm sure they can find a little spot around a temple or I bet they can rent some buildings appropriate for use if they want to exclude and entire segment of society.

BTW, its the JOB of an entire section of the IRS to look after groups that call themselves tax exempt under the guise that they are churches.  That's to all of our benefit.

Irie! Anybody know if the Rastafarian Church is recognized?

Elise [email protected]

Guess you didn't know I already went there and I didn't feel looked down on, did you.

Guess you don't know much about me at all.

Are you going to read the book I suggested or not?

Elise [email protected]

I've come to the conclusion that a discussion with NESS is like trying to peel open a coconut with a potato peeler.

No amount of fact backed up by source is going to take off his rose colored glasses.

I've gotten no response from him in the positive that he would read the book that I suggested.

I've got better things to do with my time than study Mormon history, study more race relations, or even to post more on this topic.

I'll be glad to suggest readings on topics or steer you towards where to find reading on topics on everything from Gothic Style in architecture to the Slave Chronicles to some great fiction.

I'm a library fiend.

xoxoxo
Elise [email protected]

I will look at it, but you are too far off and playing devil's advocate without any real substantive vision of the overall problem. You say kudos to the black federal judge for rebuking the boy scouts of excluding a "portion" of our population... what abou the mesican hate group "la raza"... you could NEVER become a member of it, so how is it that their exclusionary policy is exempt from a black federal judge's inappropriate rebuke, and what about your selective omission of "la raza".... you are a lost cause.

and no, I have no real interest in learning more about you. Too predicatable and superficial.

I am done with this topic.

You're just a poor sport.  You were the one that made it personal by making a statement and I just surprised you when you found out I'm internationally travelled.

You can't seem to tolerate that I'm intelligent and beautiful and have a wide frame of reference, Ness.

It's ok.  I still love YOU.  And I'll never give up.  As long as you live and take in breath you'll never be a lost cause.  You're heart may soften somewhere along the way.

If you can come up with a RELIGION such as the Mormons that denied equal access on the basis of skin color here in America, I'm still here.  (not one that used skin color to rationalize slavery or separatism~one that denied equal access as a rule of it's tennants.)

Elise [email protected]  

And, you can have the last word, NOW.  I give you my permission.