Okay, I admit I am posting this under an alias, but I am not a newbie and I am not looking for anyone's "secrets" but I do have a serious question.  I know many of you ladies want "references" before you will see someone the first time.  What if the "customer" has no references??  Like me, for example.  I don't do this with much regularity or frequency and when I do see someone, it usually turns out to be quite some time before I see the same lady again.  I am realistic enough to know I don't necessarily leave a "lasting impression" either positive or negative and chances of being remembered after a time are very small.  And I'd be uncomfortable using someone as a "reference" without advance approval.  I understand the ladies need some sort of screening and security, but what's a guy like me to do??  On top of all that, for my own security, I don't often use the same name when making an appointment either.  Am I screwed up or what??

If you use many alias, then the person screening you is not screening you very good.  I don't see how one person can say I'm XXX but I used another name with this lady as "XYZ".  I for one will not see you.  That just lets me know that you aren't who you say you are.  I've had several people that say that they will give me their "real" info but went by another name with this other lady and just ask her about me and she will remember me.  After I read that email about what info they gave this other lady, I won't even bother responding back.  Discretion is a big issue in the hobby but if you use a lot of different alias then it makes me wonder about who you REALLY are.  References are good to have but many ladies here do not give references to others.  As for me, references are for me to see you who you had the pleasure of visiting with.  Many have been burned very bad by just relying on a "reference" and nothing else.  Happy hobbying because it can be very fun when it's done right.  
xoxo,
Ashley

I hear ya, man!  I, too, am not a newbie, but have taken a bit of a sabbatical from mongering with providers in the SD area.  The "atmosphere" for mongering in SD has, in my opinion, taken a turn for the worse in the last couple of years.  Providers with attitudes or personal baggage that they bring to the sessions, LE stings, overinflated values coupled with overinflated opinions of their performances, and requirements for "references" have limited my choices, options and, quite frankly, desire to continue the pursuit.

 Basically, like you, I probably don't return to a particular provider for long periods of time or, maybe, not return at all.  I'm an average guy who probably makes an average impression.  I don't feel comfortable asking a provider if I can use her for a reference with someone else.  Also, I go by various aliases to keep the anonymity intact.  Therefore, I tend to ignore the providers who have that requirement.  

 From time to time, I take extended leaves as demands on my time from work or personal endeavors interfere with my ability to monger.  I'll go to TJ every once in awhile or make it up to the Asian establishments in the LA area (Why don't they have those options here?  I asked a Papasan once and he said it's all about demand and police interest).  References are not needed with these providers and I wind up having better GFEs in these sectors of our hobbidom.  But, overall, I've experienced a bit of "burn out" and would like to find an ATF or more GFEs (don't we all?) in SD, at a reasonable value, but maybe I'm deluding myself that it exists here.  Too few choices, not enough time, money or inclination to invest in the search, and other options (personal and career) to consider.

 Enough rambling for now.  Catch you at the next break!

I think you have been seeing the wrong women in San Diego.

Better luck to you.

Hmmmm, interesting thoughts here.  This topic is very important, and it is talked about it alot.  I have been thinking and talking to my women friends more and more about the importance of screening.

I got in trouble due to not knowing who I was meeting once.  This was not the most horrible thing that could happen at all really.  It did put into perspective however that I had been so careless that I ended up in the room with someone I knew absolutely nothing about, I hadn't told anyone where I was, or who I was meeting which is usually the case as I am a very solo person for the most part.  With that in mind, I realized, I could just as easily placed myself in an isolated situation with someone that could easily overcome me and do extreme harm if they wanted to.  I would much rather meet some of those hotties that gave me a ride down to the pokie for sure.  Yea, a couple of them were pretty cute I have to admit, lol.  That was a stroll in the park compared to what can, has and will again occur somewhere to a lone woman who is taking risks by dating as an escort.  I know a woman who's nipple was bitten of by a hostile.  She was lucky to escape that guy.

I don't use references unless it is from a very few ladies I know and trust.  But that is the last thing that I rely on.  I have to know who I am meeting.  I want to know who they are, or you could also say, who they are not.  The concept alone of what us ladies try to do, be attractive, be healthy, be sexy, be on time, try to make YOU feel safe and comfortable when we meet, always trying to let you know we will try very hard to meet your expectations.  At the same time we all have the very same challenges, anxieties from pressures of all the things we all have to deal with every day, and try to be good at those things too.  I personally try to put on my very best face, and sometimes I am in a vice of things that need to be met while I try to arrive to meet you with a great attitude that will hopefully take your minds off of those very same pressures you don't want to think about for a few minutes.  I notice how many of you guys exhale as soon as you walk in the door when you come to visit me.  While doing this, we deserve to feel safe.  We deserve to know we are not meeting someone who is going to do serious damage.  So for those of you who like to try to get by me by giving false names, and phoney information, well, I say I would like YOU to take the risks we do, while trying to deliver a confident, happy encounter.  

The gentlemen who don't play those games make my dating experience fun.  I love those guys.  Every damn one of them.  Even those of you who consider yourselves to be "average", we do need reminders, but it is always easy for me to remember the real gentlemen who let me know they want me to feel safe.

Kisses to you guys........you know who you are........  

Jenni

-- Modified on 7/2/2004 11:27:09 PM

Iamme and fogy,

You both know that this hobby is a risky hobby.  The providers have to do anything they can to protect themselves from LE as well from harm people.  As a client, you also want to protect yourself from LE.  You don't want to walk in the door and found out that it was a setup by LE.  How is that feel??? Before you decide to see a provider, you did your research to ensure that she is what she is by using this forum or TER reviews.  Well, the providers don't know who you are and because they can have many clients want to schedule with them so they have to have some kind of measure in place to screen theirs clients.  To me, it is a fair way to ensure that we both have a same interest. In your case, you use alias to protect yourself when writing the thread, hummmm I wonder why??

...such a perceptive awareness and clever expression of just how keen an observer of human nature you really are Jenni.

I sometimes wonder if those guys who try to circumvent the screening process, try to be deceptive in an attempt to put their own interests first without the slightest regard for the woman's need to feel safe and secure, realize just how much they contribute to the problem rather than the solution to a confident, happy encounter.

As disconcerting and personally damaging as an encouter with LE would be you quite rightly point out that much worse could happen.
A lone woman in the presence of a psychotic misogynist is far more frightening a thought to consider.

If a guy would truly think about how far more at risk a woman can be in this activity I think that he would see that reasonable screening information is not too much to ask. It helps to establish a sense of trust that puts her at ease.
When she trusts you to be who you say you are she is far more likely to make it VERY, VERY NICE for you.

You are quite articulate Jenni. That alone is so damn sexy.

You have offered a necessary reminder of how important it is for a woman to feel safe and secure in order to make for a very enjoyable encounter.

I for one know that you and your "sisters" deserve to feel safe and secure.

Knowing that giving you that sense of safety will make it so very nice for me when I walk through the door and just melt into your arms, leaving the rat race and all my troubles behind while I'm in your presence, is all the motivation I need.

Thanks for being your self. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

P.S. Your comment about being caught in a vice of life's trials and tribulations of your own while trying to be at your best for your "date" is something of a balancing act that we guys sometimes fail to recognize and appreciate.

-- Modified on 7/3/2004 6:07:55 AM

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-- Modified on 7/3/2004 7:23:21 AM

And, Jenni - right on!

This thread is going a bit off topic, but what the hell, it won't be the first time.  While I am leaving myself open to charges of pandering, I am man enough to take the heat.

Jenni, I have a tremendous amount of respect for you and women like you who go out of their way to make us average guys feel as if we are special.  It still boggles my mind that certain women really understand what men need and can deliver irrespective of the level of their own attraction to a particular client.  I know I couldn't do it.  

It pains and disgusts me that you have to live with a certain level of fear of physical harm every time you go out your door to meet someone new.  Although from time to time I have heard about some horrible things, I've never really personalized the fact that someone I have not met before must be concerned about that with respect to ME.  Thanks for bringing the thought home.  

If I wore a hat, I would take it off to you and your sisters.  Thank you for adding a little something to my life.  It is not an easy thing you do.

Excellent feedback from all of you.  However, you ALL seem to have missed the main point of my original post.  It is not a question at all of deception -- when asked for screening information, I ALWAYS give true and accurate information.  The problem is that part of the true and accurate information is that I can offer no "references" for the reasons I listed in my original post.  I don't like to give my real name and phone number, but I do it anyway when asked.  And I've several times been put in embarrassing situations with my wife when receiving a call from someone long after a date -- just wanting to know if I want to see her again soon.  I'd venture that very few of you ladies who want this kind of real information will give your real names to any of us.  It doesn't matter, we're addicted anyway.

First of all, well said Jenni...but...I can see both sides of the issue.  I tried to set up something with one of our very popular regular "visitor" providers last week but to no avail.  

I don't know about you other guys, but I've been burned twice by providers to whom I gave my work number.  One 'lady' called me several times over a two or three week period.  The other, I called on Friday night and she called me back during a meeting the following Thursday.  Because of these I don't give out my work number to ANYONE I haven't met.  

I'm not saying that all the ladies are like that, in fact extremely few are.  But having been burned, I for one am very gun shy now about what personal information I give out.  I can understand the ladies need for protection, but they also need to understand our needs as well.

I would very much like to see the lady I mentioned above but I guess I'll miss out.    I know she's always booked when she comes into tow, so not seeing me won't affect her business at all.  Also, because I do respect her (and most of our ladies around here) I won't mention her name.  I do hope we can set something up some day, though.

...to be sure as to how to deal with the screening process.
Providers set their own standards for this process in order
to insure their own safety and security.

Although I understand what you are saying about having been burned, I don't think you can expect other providers who do require reasonable screening to grant you an EXCEPTION because you had a bad experience in this process. You don't seem to be saying that directly, but rather indirectly, by suggesting that you'll miss out on the lady mentioned in your post because you are no longer willing to give out your work number for verification.

You state that because of what happened "I don't give out my work number to ANYONE I haven't met." What's the point of giving out your work number AFTER you have met her if you do NOT want her contacting you at work to follow-up?

I give out my work number so that she can call to verify that I work there, and so that she can be assured that I am who I say I am. That is the sole purpose for giving out my work number. I make it quite clear that any follow-up contact is to be to my personal cell phone number. The well established, well reviewed providers understand this explicitly and act accordingly.
I'm not saying that there would never be a mishap in communication but if you do your homework you significantly reduce the chances of that happening. As with most anything in life reducing risks to the zero level is virtually impossible so
you use common sense, assess the risk you are willing to take, and make a judgement call as to how to proceed.

I think that the good providers do understand the need for discretion but that does NOT mean that they should relax their reasonable standards for insuring their own safety because a potential client had a bad experience with some other provider.

I too would be miffed if I was burned in the way you described in your post but I would consider that a learning experience and make some adjustments in how I approach the process of selecting a provider. I would not place the burden on another provider to make exceptions for me that may put her at potential risk because
of what someone else did.

It comes down to what the two parties are willing to accept as reasonable. If you cannot reach a meeting of the minds on what is reasonable then you just move on. I certainly would not pressure a provider to relax her reasonable standards for verification.

The issue of references is another matter. I personally do not like to ask a provider to give me a reference but in a previous thread a few stated that they were more than willing to give references. If a reference is required and I don't feel comfortable with that then I just move on to someone else.

Women are far more at risk for their personal/physical safety in this activity and in society at large. Not something that we men always keep in mind.




-- Modified on 7/4/2004 7:22:01 AM

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-- Modified on 7/4/2004 2:44:00 PM

It is a judgment call which is why I do not encourage hobbyists to provide more information than they feel comfortable in providing or for providers to accept less information than they feel necessary to feel safe.  Also as a hobbyist even if I felt her demands for information were unreasonable I would not debate it with her but just move on to the next lady.

I agree with you that it is not reasonable for a hobbyist to expect a provider to adjust her screening because he has had bad experiences with other providers.  However it is probably not reasonable to expect a hobbyist to keep giving out information to providers that has created problems in the past.

Your premise seems to be that if you stick with “well established, well reviewed providers” that you should not have many problems and that these providers “understand the need for discretion. In mathematics that type of thinking is called inductive reasoning.  It’s a conclusion inferred, rather than deduced from specific evidence.  In engineering it is called a WAG (wild-ass guess).  We all know that the TER reviews are just fictional accounts for our own enjoyment but based upon your logic if a lady looks pretty, gives a great BBBJ and has been doing them for some time she is discrete, trustworthy, etc.  The reviews tell us what they tell us, certainly no more, but sometimes much less than we think.  

In just the last month I have had 2 incidents involving well reviewed ladies that would tend to shoot holes in your premise regarding discretion and I don’t see that many ladies in a month’s time.  Am I losing any sleep over it ? No, but then I am not concerned with my employer or an SO finding out about my hobby.  

Personally I don’t have problems giving much of the information requested by providers but then if she calls my business or home phone and leaves a message I am the only person who is going to get the message.  I do understand the concerns that guys have with people at work or the SO at home finding out what they are doing and that is why I am responding to your post.    

A definition:  Judge/Judgement--To think, consider, suppose.
The ability to to perceive and distinguish relationships or alternatives, discernment. The capacity to make REASONABLE decisions.

I don't recall suggesting/implying some sort of fool proof formula that rises to the level of absolute certainty with respect to the issues of discretion/trust based on how pretty a provider is or that she gives a great BBBJ and is well reviewed.
I also do not recall suggesting that it is reasonable to continue to give out information to those providers who have been a problem in the past.

I do recall saying: "As with most anything in life reducing risks to the zero level is virtually impossible so you use common sense, assess the risk you are willing to take, and make a judgement call as to how to proceed."

With all due respect to the field of engineering I would suggest that with the proper approach, decisions/activity in the hobby can very well rise above the level of a "wild ass guess". This isn't simply about reading reviews. There is generally some level of communication that takes place. Sometimes you have to rely, in part, on your gut level feelings based on that communication.

The consequences of "incidents" with respect to mishaps in communication between client/provider are not likely to even approach the consequences of a structural design flaw in the World Trade Center towers or the space shuttle. Of course depending on the outcome of such an incident I suppose there may be someone out there that might dispute that.

The gist of my post dealt with reasonable screening, and in particular, giving a work phone number for the purpose of verification.

If you think that the two "incidents" you experienced serve as evidence that my "premise" is riddled with holes then of course you are free to make your view known.

My greater concern was with the tendency by some to use "accounts" of such incidents to either directly or indirectly justify putting pressure on providers to relax REASONABLE screening standards and thus perhaps put themselves at risk.

I am still of the viewpoint that women are far more at risk for their personal/physical safety in this activity and in society at large.



-- Modified on 7/5/2004 9:11:56 AM

-- Modified on 7/5/2004 11:14:15 AM

how does knowing the hobbyist works where he says he works make a lady feel safer? I think references  ought to work better but then we're back to the question -- what about the guy with no references?

We actually agree more than we disagree.  Our major difference is that I am not trying to convince a hobbyist to give out information that he does not want to release.  

You mention "reasonable screening" in your post.  Reasonable screening varies from provider to provider.  Some will not see you without provider references, some will not see you without a work phone number and some want both. Some providers want the above information plus other information.

You mentioned that you have concerns about asking for references.  Iamme has concerns about giving out his work number.  Both of you should just find providers who are comfortable with the information you are willing to provide.

BTW over the years I have seen a lot more than two incidents of lack of discretion and I have seen issues arise with work telephone numbers and with provider references so neither of your fears is totally unfounded.

You made a comment regarding putting pressure on providers to relax their screening standards.  If you want to see a provider that has very strict screening standards that you are not comfortable with then you have 3 basic choices.  You can pass on the provider, you can give her all the information she wants becasue the little head is telling the big head that you have to have her or you can try to give her enough information to make her feel comfortable without giving her everything that she originally asked for.  When the provider receives your email she can absolutely insist on having every piece of information on her contact form and just throw your request in the trash, decide she really has enough information to be comfortable or request that you send her additional information.  If you are not willing to provide all of the information then she has to weigh the risks against the $$ and other values of having a new client.  Nobody has a gun pointed at anybody's head in this entire process.

I agree with you that I personally would tend to pass on a provider that asked for more information than I was willing to provide and not bother her.  If I was willing to give her almost all of the information she requested then I might talk to her and try to provide alternative verification.

As far as iamme is concerned I suspect that most of the ladies he has seen do virtually no screening or else he would never have been able to book dates using phony names.

With the current LE persecution going on in San Diego I am certainly not suggesting that Providers should relax their screening procedures to accomodate new business unless they can get alternative verification that makes them feel secure.  In fact when I look through the posters on this thread I see one that I suspect may be LE.  I am not going to try to persuade ladies to relax their screening when the smell of bacon is in the air.

-- Modified on 7/5/2004 9:33:28 PM

...that we agree more than disagree. Furthermore I would commend you on some of your recent posts. One that comes to mind was  your post to the thread originated by visitorsfriend:  "Suggestion for new San Diego board". I'm specifically refering to your post in that thread: "Re:Common Sense or Lack of It - (Long Rant)" That was well reasoned.

"Our major difference is that I am not trying to convince a hobbyist to give out information that he does not want to release."

With respect to the above I actually think that it is not so much that I am trying to convince a hobbyist to give out more information than he is comfortable with, but suggesting that he move on to someone else without whining if he's not comfortable with supplying the screening information the provider requires. I think there is a bit of a substantive difference although some might view it more as semantics. The written word is not always perceived as precisely as the spoken word.


With respect to references, I do simply move on if I feel uncomfortable with providing a reference. The lack of comfort stems more from asking a provider to provide such a reference when it could infringe on her time, and just seems like potentially too much of an imposition. Perhaps that is a bit of over statement on my part given that a few providers have stated that they have no problem with giving out references.

The half life of a thread on this board is about a day and a half or so and this thread is approaching the end of its useful life.
Given that I'll choose not to elaborate further but simply thank you for your positive comments over the past several days.
 

-- Modified on 7/5/2004 10:35:04 PM

I totally agree with you Jenni! You know how hard I tried and took quite long time, lol!

Well it's a fairly simple concept. If she calls the main number at your work place, the number that identifies the name of the business or organization, and then is able to actually reach you at that place of business then that is reassurance that you actually work there. In other words she is less likely to be dealing with someone who is a more unknown entity or perhaps even LE.

Someone can tell a provider whatever he wants with respect to where he works but unless she is able to independently verify that, it is of little use to her in trying to insure that she is meeting with someone who is trustworthy, and is who he says he is.

-- Modified on 7/6/2004 4:33:05 PM

if I'm some kind of psycho or not... What I'm afraid of (maybe others are too) is that IF somehow some freaky misunderstanding happens, people at work might get know about it... You guys tell me -- is this paranoia?

...to your point would be that NOT knowing where you work would  prove equally unuseful, if not more so, in determining whether the prospective client is a psycho.

Someone who is a psycho is probably going to try to maintain as much anonymity as possible. From that standpoint alone it probably improves the provider's chances of avoiding someone like that if she is able to verify employment. Like anything in life there are virtually no absolute guarantees.

Simply put, we each have to find our own "comfort level" in this process.

I had such butterflies in my first experience in the hobby that, to use a running analogy, I never crossed the finish line. I was, in marathon terminology,  a "DNF" (did not finish). There was such a high level of anxiety on my part, that stemmed in part from going through the screening, that I was never quite able to put myself at ease in the allotted time. I have since learned to put more trust in this process, particularly when  I have a resource such as TER and I do my homework.



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-- Modified on 7/7/2004 9:21:26 PM

I appreciate all your feedback, but one of the ladies I was tlaking about was a very well known and respected provider.  I did give the lady I'd like to see three well known and respected local providers I've seen here locally but she chose not to accept these.  So it is my choice and my loss that I don't get to see As her.  We still have some wonderful ladies that I have not seen yet and whom I will definitely see in the near future, so though disappointed, I'm not devasted.