Folks, according to Money Magazine, here are the best cities to live!
http://money.cnn.com/best/bplive/cities_table/
I always found their financial advice at best sophmoric ... now, seeing my hometown of San Diego/Del Mar not at the top of the list, I want to know if there is any one out there who actually pays for the subscription to this rag!
I have travelled extensively, including being at Plano, Texas, and Naperville, IL ... comparing these places to San Diego???
The point was the criteria was screwed up ... more millionaires, megamillionaires, and billionairs [Gates just bought a mansion here]live here, not in Plano, or Timbukto.
When financial constraints are brought into the picture, almost the only parameter that counts, are job related. Thus, the stupidity of the article ...
I know exactly what you mean. when I saw that article I thought...PLANO? Get the "F" out! Ocean view does have something to do with it, but Plano? Give me a break. Yes, back away before you say have you been there. Fly into Love Field and you go to Plano. FLAT, hotter than Hades in the summer time and lots of FAT people. They rank #3 behind Detroit and Houston. Point is that not everyone can afford to live here and most of us that own homes here in So Cal could sell out houses and buy a mansion in the Dallas area with the equity alone. Fact of the matter is that I wouldn't be caught dead moving back there so let them win the magazine articles. I gotta was my board and surf this week...late!
was the article for the wealthy, or the average household? Then it should have been stated as such. And the other posters mention an income of $45k-$75k, but realistically speaking, the wages would be closer to $26-$35k for most, or at least many.
Try living on THAT in San Diego!
My (own) opinions of living here have changed. I 'hated' living here when for 12 years I worked three jobs, around the clock, 363 days a year. Really, it was more 'hating' the situation, but the cost of living here WAS a factor OF the situation.
I hated living here when dealing with the traffic. Now, that I'm self employed, I can actually enjoy, for the first time, the beauty and the real 'draw' of living here.
Earlier 2003, I had my place for sale, and investigated where I wanted to go (hence my interest in the articles), and made Plans A-D. For the most part, I could just about buy a house out of state in full, with cash after selling here. I even considered out of the country (www.escapeartist.com), but one by one plans A-D fell through, and obviously, not meant to be just yet.
So..time will tell, and we go down different roads..
over the last five years, and believe it or not, CA cities aren't often even in the mention - at least SoCal. NorCal is mentioned.
Life is not all about weather, though we are geared to think it is. And Mr. SelfDestruct is right - it's not about the ocean view.
I think I kept last years article, from MSN, and none of the recommendations were in CA at all.
All that matters is that YOU are where you want to be and it sounds as though you are, but I've been told there are more people leaving CA than ever before in CA history as it is just not economically feasible anymore to stay.
And speaking of economics, then, your Money Mag, would be right on.
Well stated by both the Sedona and MrSelfDestruct...
One correction to the false notion of Cali's population shrinkage: There are indeed more people coming INTO CA than are leaving. Illegals are flowing in at a higher rate than those leaving, but there are indeed more "TAX PAYERS" leaving.... so hence the statistic. Always read between the lines. Of course, this puts CALI in a more precarious situation because these new arrivals are taking away from the system rather than contributing.
SoCal is among poorest places I have been to in all of the country..... San Diego is great for those making more than $120k, living in NC or for those who bought property before this mess.
What strikes me about SoCal are the 'third world' type of extremes in economic living standards... and this is not just the mescans living pretty meagerly, but white folk living on $7-$12/hour, with the exception that white folk generally MUST pay taxes (they have a much harder time getting away with 'under the table wages'); so their take home pay is almost half of that.
Just because one has an ocean view along Imperial Beach, Pacific Beach or Ocean Beach means nothing. The actual places these to live are pretty run down, and still overpriced. The marginally decent properties (along DelMar/LaJolla) are even more outrageously priced.
Take a long walk from central PB to OB, and you will not see a desirable place to live.... I took a five hour walk along the coast and could not believe the awful conditions... and wacky prices.
When the company I worked for opened up an office in SD, most of the people that came to check it out were very unimpressed, in fact, they all thought SD was on the dumpy side. The company ended up hiring locals instead.
When someone makes $45k-$70k/year, they like living in peace on their 1800-2200 square foot home on a 1/4 acre lot; they were not keen on having to stress about about renting the equivalent of a run down 'student apartment'. They do not like the constant thirld world crisis we always seem to have down here on a yearly basis. If its not the gas crisis (1998), or the electricity crisis (2000) or the grocery store crisis (now), or the immigrant crisis, or the recall crisis, or the fires.... what gives?
The condition of SoCal's economy has gone down significantly. More and more SDG&E resembles the Iraqi power company with constant outages, our city held hostage by a half-assed football team, and natural disasters occurring yearly, yet property values skyrocket without any relief in sight. For those who has been fortunate to get onto the merry-go-round before property values increased are lucky, however, those who have not now find themselves unable to buy into the great American dream. And wages, I have found that pay in San Diego is several clicks lower than those in L.A., but then again, many of us here would pay NOT to live in L.A.
All we seem to have on other cities is our climate. And unfortunately, other cities has the same advantage as we in that category.
Good post.....I noticed there were a lot of Orange County cities listed under the West region...on paper, Orange County is a beautiful area to live and the weather is great...but the traffic stinks and in a good portion of the county you have to put up with the people (separate topic all to itself)....I am very surprised San Diego is not listed--great climate, great beaches, urban center, not as congested as its neighbors to the north (at least, not yet) and laid back, mellow people. To each his or her own.
I have actually lived in more than one of the places in the West in the top five over 100,000 and in the number one place under 100,000 in the West. I think my happiness factor lies more inside of myself than where I live.
I get to travel to a lot of places in the US, both large and small, and I have found that places that I never thought I would like were great and places that were supposed to be great weren't "all that".
I feel that I live in the best place I have ever lived and am happy every time I come home from another trip. Could I find this in another place, maybe, but I'm happy where I'm at right now.
Money Magazine's criteria are based on economics, and the fact is, for the very wealthy, it is a HIGHLY desireable place to be. But, as ness states, it is nowhere near as nice for someone trying to support a family on $45K-75K per year. However, for someone who is single and pulls in 6-figures, or for anyone with a net worth in the millions, the place is an unmatched playground. Ocean views and beaches within walking distance are very nice. However, for the folks who compile these surveys, and lots of folks looking to move to an area, the availability of jobs that allow one to buy a house in the same neighborhood, the quality of the transit infrastructure, good public schools, and the crime rate are a heck of alot more significant issues. It would be very naive to think that Southern California scores well on any of THOSE issues. Now, don't get me wrong. I personally love the place, and I would never leave. But I'm single, earn well into 6 figures, and own 2 homes, 3 nice cars and am in the process of buying a boat big and powerful enough to do deep sea fishing and to live in for over a week at a time. But they don't write those articles for me.
Even for the wealthy, I do NOT see SD as that great of a place, especially considering the price.
For example, why would anyone pay $1.2 million for a fancy overrated tract house in North County, when for the same price you can buy a beautiful little villa or mansion in the mediterranean overlooking the ocean, and in really cool cities... and since those on this board have a propensity for sex (come on, let's not get self righteous here), there's nothing like Europe. Slender modelly women are plenty, very slutty, and much less expensive than here (if you have to pay). You also have access to many nice places to travel.. and if you ar the consumate hobbyiest, there is no place like eastern europe for some real hotties.
Europe has its problems, no doubt, but if your rich, you are isolated from them. I find ALL of the beaches along the mediterranean blow away anything we have here. Not because the water is any better (which it usually is anyway, ocean water is never as nice as lakes or sea water), but their cities are quaint, safe, picturesque, and beautiful babes everywhere.
Unfortunately, our beaches have been completely taken over by the overgrown 50 year beach bumb, bikers, and look rather slothful.
Just compare PB, OB, IB with Monaco, Nice, Rimini, the greek isles, Costa del Sol..... no comparison!
Even in the USA, the HI and FL beaches are nicer for much less!!
CA has overpriced itself. If prices were to be cut to nomial levels, then CA would be back in the favorites list.
We must guard ourselves from being too ethnocentric. If I learned anything in my days is that life, no matter where you are, is like a two-edged sword and it cuts both ways.
If you have been over to Europe lately, then you would have noticed the same degradation of the quality of life occurring over there as well. For example, those "slender young ladies" are not so slender anymore given the inroads of the fast-food companies in the dietary habits of most Europeans. Also, those places you mention are indeed lovely, but only are truly enjoyable if you happen to have lots of money, otherwise, you are out of luck and probably no better off than the service workers at the fancy places there. True, overall they do have better benefits & perks and do not work as hard as the average American, but their collective standard of living for the average person isn't what it is here in the States. We may have more "toys," but we also work longer hours. That is not even addressing another significant issue-- that is "opportunity to advance." Over there, your job promotions are not "what you make out of it" so easily as it is here.
These comment comes not from some casual tourist, but rather from one that had to live and work over there for quite a while. I will say that the higher income people in the U.S. are taxed much less than their contemporaries in most E.U. countries. In this regard, being a U.S. citizen was a major benefit I noted while there.
No matter where you are, making a living is a constant struggle! You just need to enjoy and make the best of it no matter where you are.
Your reference to "cities are quaint, safe, picturesque," I was amazed by the amount of graffiti I saw while there, even on some of the well noted monuments. It surpassed anything I have seen, even the amount up in L.A.
1) As a percentage of GDP, we pay about the same as europeans, 35%-40%. Our taxes are in smaller amounts but assessed in layers. Not only that, residents of CA, HI, NY, and NJ pay just as much as anyone living in England, Sweden, and France, "assuming" you own land, a car, and make between $45k-$60k. Just do the numbers and about 50%-65% of your income ends up being taxed by some govt. This of course, does NOT count the taxes your employer pays for you (employee training tax, SDI, Unemployment Insurance, Worker's Comp, matching Payroll taxes, other insurance, etc). If you add these to the tally, our taxation is closer to 75% per worker (for every dollar you take home, your employer paid out approx. $1.5-$1.75).
Of course, living in Montana, N/S Dakota, Tenessee are much less in terms of taxes, but so is living in the lower end EU nations (Ireland, Poland, Czek, Greece, etc). Taxes in Switzerland are pretty close to our midwestern states overall, but lower than living in CA, HI or NY/NJ. Taxes in Sweden and France are about 1%-2% higher overall than CA... I understand living in AL is super high as well - probably higher than Sweden (similar climates).
Please, do NOT limit your comparisons of taxation to the Federal Govt. only!! Add local and state Govts. AND mandatory insurance (which is nothing mroe than a tax).
2) The european model is not as layered (you pay more up front), and you do NOT have as high of capital gains taxes on LONG term investments.
For example, in Germany, if you own stock for over 10 years, NO gapital gains. And in between, your rates are lowered. In the USA, the mere taxation of capital gains is double taxation, because the company is paying you with taxed money...
3) There is NO question that the USA is MUCH better than Europe (or any where else for that matter) for professional, targeted or specialized opportunites. But the USA has completely lost its edge in tems of 'opportunities' for the average Joe from second world or decent countries. Some average, non-skilled worker from a decent South American country (Chile, Uruguay, Argentina) or Europe have NOTHING to gain coming here.
Someone in San Diego making $30k/year is NOT better off than someone making half that in France/Germany/Argentina. Of course, in France/Germany/Argentina they would not own anything particularly nice, but what can you do in SD with $30k?
I am not talking about poor third world aberrations like mesco, the rest of latin america, india, china, africa or SE asia.
I AM NOT SAYING THEIR SYSTEM IS BETTER, I am SAYING OUR SYSTEM IS ALMOST AS BAD as far as taxes/insurance go. I get sick to my stomach when I hear of Fed/State govts. irresponsibly endorsing new entitlement programs, want to open our borders,... which will lead to more taxation and chaos.
I thought about buying some property out of the country..
I've spent significant time in Monaco, Nice, & Cannes, and I can tell you that FOR SURE, the cost of living in La Jolla or Del Mar is lower, and the traffic is less. First of all, the tax rates in France are NOTICEABLY higher than they are in California. Monaco, which doesn't have the higher taxes, has STRATOSPHERIC pricing. A "quaint" two bedroom villa overlooking the ocean, but perhaps a kilometer from the shore, is several million dollars. That kind of cash puts you directly on the beach in California for the same size place. And the cost of food and fuel and other items is far more in Western Europe than it is here.
I will grant you that oceanfront in Hawaii and Florida are less. But our climate is ALOT better than that of Florida, and try getting a high-paying professional job in Hawaii if you're not in Hotel or Restaurant management.
I was just in south of France and though you are correct in saying some of their consumer prices are higher, not everything is higher. I saw some nice apartments along the beach for same or less than DelMar/LaJolla/PB (but without the trash).
I'd take Ibiza (the european drug paradise) any day over PB/OB!
But there are other places just as nice as Nice/Cannes/Monaco. Have you been to the spanish islands and coast? The greek islands and coast? the italian islands and coast?
I will venture to say that the Croatian coast is also amazing for a fraction of our cost!
Look, I am not saying they have it way better. I am only saying we do not have it as good as we think or as good as it once was. Our area is too overpriced for what it is or what it should be.
What you see in Europe is that the Mediterranean resorts in Western Europe that have had stable governments with strong economies are extremely expensive for what you get (with the exception of Spain, which still seems under-priced). There are also places like Greece, which has some economic and political instability that has kept it less costly.
However, the places that have recently come out of Communism are much more cost effective, such as the Czech republic - Prague is arguably as diverse and beautiful as Paris at a fraction of the cost. And, the most economical of all are the areas that have come out of Communism and then followed that with civil war, such as Croatia. Dubrovnik is probably as nice as anywhere on the French or Italian Riviera, at a tiny fraction of the cost. But there is a reason for this.
As an economist by training, I would have to say that this is merely a function of the markets pricing-down the perceived risk of the stability of the areas in question. However, PERCEIVED risk is one of those economic factors that is sticky. Perception lingers well beyond reality. Thus, gorgeous, cosmopolitan places like Prague and Dubrovnik are still bargains relative to places like Monaco, or San Diego.