Well, you really have to admire Rugburn's cohones for not only setting up an appointment with "TinaBGood", but actually showing up and living to tell the tale.

What Rugburn was doing is a 21st century update of what the Plains Indians called "counting coup".

From the website "Wilderness Way" by Oracle, ".... Coup is a French word, pronounced coo. In the Indian languages, "war count" was the definition. Coup could be counted by approaching an enemy close enough to strike him with something held in the hand. Coup could be counted without either killing or scalping. The greatest coup went to the warrior who, while counting coup, captured the enemy's horses, weapons, and religious vestments...."

Rugburn's full of it -- nobody would do something that dumb. No one would intentionally and deliberately place himself/herself in harms way for no good reason. Rugburn is clearly an experienced hobbiest with a myriad of reviews. He already knows that TinaBgood is not in any way, shape, or form kosher. Why even an inexperienced hobbiest can figure this out. Rugburn needs to stop mooching and pay TER for his membership.

Also, since he didn't provide enough info in the basic-member part of the review, he's doing a real disservice for the hobbiest who only has basic membership. Some unsuspecting hobbiest with only basic membership may see his name amongst the other reviewers and assume that TinaBgood is legit -- because, after all, Rugburn is a credible hobbiest (i.e., he has many reviews).  This poor sap may then adopt the YMMV phenomena, make an appointment to see TinBgood, and end up... well you know where. Not cool Rugburn. Oh well, I guess it is just another example of rationality.

The dude has some mammoth size stones to tempt fate like that. Counting coup is the perfect analogy.

Your posting (rant?) leaves me perplexed.

It's certainly true that very few of us would have dared to visit this "provider", given the recent discussions about her on this board. However, saying that "nobody would do something that dumb" is imputing motivations to someone you don't know. Maybe the best quote I've ever heard about this subject was in a Jack Vance novel: "How can I understand your motivations? I don't even understand my own."

And as to people not doing dumb, self destructive things. How does that square with the 300 Spartans who sacrificed themselves at Thermopylae to prevent the invasion of Greece by King Xerxes of Persia? Why did the men at the Alamo refuse to surrender to the Mexican Commander Santa Anna, and instead chose death, giving time for Sam Houston to regroup his Texas forces? And on a more mundane level, people smoke, speed in their cars, overeat etc. all the time. Actually, a better argument could be made that people are almost always self-destructive, in one way or another.

And as to Rugburn's contribution not being worthy or misleading hobbyists. Rugburn's numerical rating were "5" for appearance and "2" for performance. Basic members will not be mislead, as "2" for performance indicates "stay at home". Furthermore, if you subtract out rugburn's review, you are left with two positively glowing reviews that could entice both basic and vip members.

Hadn't we already established that "bonafidelover" and "NAGLAF" we both LE?

i respectfully disagree with u all!
rugburn did the right thing. there was a lot of talk on the chik in question. if rugburn took the dare... more power to him.
it proves that he is not a chicken for sure that he is confidant of his abilities to check 4 himself and verify. he has nothing to gain but to help his fellowmen in warning of his xperience.
in my book he is all right. u go rugburn!

Hate to jump on the "Third Party Bandwagon" (a la "Papi") - but Rugburn LOVES the arrogant slant it gives to Rugburn's opinions.
Rugburn never "mooches", Rugburn ALWAYS pays for membership - and ALWAYS tries to warn the "brethren" when danger lurks.

Maybe I should go back and re-read my posts...

-- Modified on 6/14/2003 7:46:36 PM

Yeah, just read Rugburn's review.  Seems to me he was just very confident that he wouldn't get pinched because he wouldn't allow himself to be baited.  He never incriminated himself.   Brass balls!

Having observed LE's increasingly numerous forays into "our world", the one thought that has been on my mind is "how dare they"!  When a free people cower before authority, blindly obeying laws written specifically to take our freedom - a dangerous precedent is set.  With the exception of some radical Islamic states, the U.S. is the only country in the world that attempts to govern the private lives of adults.  In most states, these laws are mainly a formality - but San Diego LE has decided to take full advantage, consistently crossing the line into entrapment - happy to violate their oath as officers of the court. Does anyone really believe LE is acting in the public interest here?  Who can argue the fact that their only real motivation is revenue (fines and increased budgets, the beaurocrat's reward for "success") and personal career advancement.

The public won't speak out, our conservative religious and "moral" climate prevents this.  I for one feel this is a key battleground, one we cannot afford to "avoid at all costs".  If LE's confidence is bolstered by a sense of success, what arena will be next?  Which of our rights will be considered worth violating in the interest of "The Law"?  

For those who consider my decision an act of stupidity, thank you.  I have made a career of being underestimated.  BTW, I had a witness in the parking lot, a tape recorder in my pocket - just in case.  I KNEW (90%?) "Tina" was BS, but I was enraged when I read the two prior reviews, which have certainly led to embarassment, jail, possibly ruin for some poor soul who could not have imagined our "public servants" capable of manufacturing, rather than preventing crime.

For those who understand my true motives, I also thank you.  We are, in a sense, the "resistence" movement in a battle for our rights. Until we send the message that we will NOT tolerate the trampling of our rights, or the abuse of power by those paid to protect our rights - we only risk encouraging more of the same.

Dude you have some big balls. I could never do what u did. Thanks for letting us know she is a trap....

whereas i applaud your guts, i don't share your dissatisfaction with our le, who r paid 2 do our ( legislature ) bidding.
the fight, if any, should be in the corridors of assembly and not with cops, who r more or less doing their job. remember the cops c us cruising in our luxurymobiles, flaunting greenbacks, violating laws, that they r sworn 2 uphold. what would u do if u were le?
as lawbreakers, onus is upon us to avoid capture. taking on the establishment is foolish, near sighted and destructive. self preservation is the key... not changing the laws, cop behaviour, or the world!!!
just my opinion.. and u know opinions r like a** holes, everyone is got one.   !!

 Your the man Rugburn,,,If you want to embarasse them a little more let me know and I'll get you on a good running program,,,so you can make your point then add salt in their wounds by making them chase you out the room,down the stairs,to hwy 8 where you put them away once and for all as they in a last ditch effort throw their Krispy's at you,,,,We'll call you the CopBurn from here on out,your classic!

Well, then... I apologize. You're certainly one brazen crusader! But why? For what reason? What exactly are you trying to accomplish/prove? We already know the legitimacy of the aforementioned, so what is the point. Do you feel like making attorneys and bondsmen rich? If you get caught up in one of these snares, even if you do not do anything incriminating, you will need to expend plenty of resources -- which could have been used for other things -- just to get yourself untangled. Is it really worth it? Must you go so far just to convince yourself.  What do your actions do for the hobbiest's side of the "battleground"? I really don't see your point here, unless you believe that there are many who are still uncertain about her legitimacy -- which I find really hard to believe -- and you're attempting to prevent them from falling prey to these ruthless scavengers. Your behavior just seems a bit odd --somewhat extreme and unnecessary, since the ad alone just screams LE.

You also write,
"We are, in a sense, the "resistence" movement in a battle for our rights. Until we send the message that we will NOT tolerate the trampling of our rights, or the abuse of power by those paid to protect our rights - we only risk encouraging more of the same."
I'm not sure how your actions send this message, or what you really mean here -- maybe you can you can clarify a bit.

Hobby safely,
Pecker

I doubt its a coincidence that every single one of "bonafidelover"'s reviews are the only review for every single one of the girls he's reviewed, and the other guy who did the Tina review has zero other reviews.  

Then again, im guessing, again, but ... Unless i see TWO OR MORE REVIEWS from someone who has SEEN A GIRL IVE SEEN, then I wont be believing the reviews any more.

Yeah and "onemorepecker" sounds exactly like the other jackasses who insult the guys who come here to warn people of potential LE stings.  

Its clear these guys are trying to confuse and convolute things so much that we dont know who to trust and will "stop".  In reality all they're doing is showing me how dishonest cops can really be.

Thanks for doing what you're doing.  That is my motivation too with this whole thing.  I actually *SUPPORT* the laws out there, and acknowledge that if I am speeding, I am breaking the law.  However, as an adult, I should be allowed to present myself in an unincriminating manner and not have the risk of being incriminated by "assumption" or "appearances" or whatever it is they did to that other guy.

The solution to this whole thing is really quite simple.  We all know where "Sumie" is, and we all know where "TinaBGood" are every single night.  Why don't we go ENTRAP them?  Bring a lawyer.  Record the conversation like they do with us.  They're obviously not the least bit concerned about being careful with what they say or do, so as to not entrap... so call it a public service and expose the deception.

Im not saying to justify prostitution.  All im saying is that this is a cat and mouse game here, and both the cat and the mouse have rules.

Regrettably, from my experience, the majority of cops (or the PC municipal bureaucrats that direct the police) are more or less similarly misguided throughout the nation.  After being robbed by some teenage mexican gangsters a couple of years ago, I angrily - but still civil - walked into the police station to file a report; they almost arrested me!!!.... they didn't even bother following up on the case.

Rugburn, your comments are mostly dead on, particularly on the "real" motivation of taxation... but I would disagree with the "conservative" or "moralistic" slant of the munies. Only a handful of the municipal politicos are "conservatives", but they are of the high profile variety, thus skewing the overall appearance. The mid and lower level municipal bureaucrats - those who decide to go after the easy targets (like us) for money - are surprisingly more on the PC side, and believe it or not, between 50%-55% are dems. What is even more surprising is the heavy lefty-socialist-PC slant in the DA's office.

only to do a little fu**ing and su**ing... not change the fu**ing world.
as rodney said can we all go along and get along.

if not now, when?  is that the question?  we take pride here at TER for compromising LE assets, and then we leave it at that.  The players at the forefront of each side see eachother as the enemy, it's the nature of the game.  We are all part of the same community:  the payers, the providers, services like TER, and of course, LE.  There are middle-level players, state/national-level ones too, and even global ones like larry flynt involved,  And it would be easy to see our next door neighbors as the ones responsible for denying us our pleasure.  our desire to pay to fuck freely.  So are we looking for true enemies now, after this victorious round of hunting?  Is what we do here a political freedom worth sacrificing for?  YES, it's a great heroic action that Rugburn took, (if the story is true), and it helps save a couple of our skins, literally, BUT if this is a political struggle worth investing valuable resources in, we should also include the providers, as any increased action "we" take will impact them.  And I say "we" to the anonymous strangers reading this, hoping that TER who tends to know who is LE or not, would also take a greater risk of involvement, because this really is a doomed fight.  doomed, doomed, doomed.  heroic and necessary, sure, I'd even accept stupid, as I think there's a greater chance of us TER folks negotiating a middle eastern peace accord than changing the hearts and minds of san diegans regarding the laws of prostitution.  In my mind, the greatest service Rugburn has provided is in sharing his story, exposing how LE plays their side of the game, and the ways for us payers to counter it.  From this, we can make wiser decisions, if any, wherever they may lead.

The whole "seen a girl I've seen" thing doesn't work.  Anyone, including an LE poser, can review a provider.  I do think its important for this group to "out" LE when they are discovered.

In the end, Rugburn's review of Tina just ads to the paranoia, already created by LE, and makes everyone just a little more paranoid.

No, I think Rugburn's review only benefited LE.  Sorry Rugburn your review of Tina won't do anything to stop what LE is doing either way.  Look at us now, were spending more time dealing with this issue than the postitive aspects of the hobby.

This has to be the most lame argument/excuse I've seen on the boards. There are hundreds of THOUSANDS of laws on the books that they're not making any effort, let alone a concerted effort to enforce.  

Just doing their jobs doesn't make it right, or make the laws right.  The revenuers were just doing their jobs when they busted up the stills.  The Nazi military were just doing their jobs when they were gathering up the jews. etc. etc. etc.

It's unfortunate that there aren't more guys with the intestinal fortitude to do what he did, so that we could be more informed of what is going on.  Too bad we can't get the radios to alert us to who and where these stings are going on, just like they do for traffic monitoring and DUI checkpoints. Driving while intoxicated is unlawful, and life threatening.  Yet how many holiday weekends go by without someone being killed due to driving intoxicated.  Or boating intoxicated....

Why is it that we can be notified of DUI checkpoints without the fear of "obstruction of justice", but getting photographs, phone numbers etc. for this is?

This has to be the most lame argument/excuse I've seen on the boards. There are hundreds of THOUSANDS of laws on the books that they're not making any effort, let alone a concerted effort to enforce.  

Just doing their jobs doesn't make it right, or make the laws right.  The revenuers were just doing their jobs when they busted up the stills.  The Nazi military were just doing their jobs when they were gathering up the jews. etc. etc. etc.

It's unfortunate that there aren't more guys with the intestinal fortitude to do what he did, so that we could be more informed of what is going on.  Too bad we can't get the radios to alert us to who and where these stings are going on, just like they do for traffic monitoring and DUI checkpoints. Driving while intoxicated is unlawful, and life threatening.  Yet how many holiday weekends go by without someone being killed due to driving intoxicated.  Or boating intoxicated....

Why is it that we can be notified of DUI checkpoints without the fear of "obstruction of justice", but getting photographs, phone numbers etc. for this is?

Actually, knowing this and being able to tell this community about it is a good thing.  I no longer have any paranoia about TinaBBULLSHIT.  It's not clear how you perceive that his information benefited LE though.

I just think that the next time he does this, the least he could do is bring them a box of jelly donuts as a "gift".

First off, we are talking about the vice section. Theses are usually plain clothes cops in unmarked cars. They do not work B&E's or sit at DUI stops while on tour in the vice section. Unfortunately, this hobby is an illegal vice. I would love to see that law overturned just as much as the next guy. But, until then, they are just doing the job assigned to them.
   Pleae do not compare vice cops to the nazi millitary. That just isn't right and I think you crossd the line on that one. Any person that has had any knowledge of how law enforcement work unserstands that the grunts of the department do as they are directed. It may not be pretty, but it's how it is done. It would not surprise me if most beat cops would prefer to see this hobby legalized. However, the PC police chiefs and politicians that need votes will always be vocally against it. That is how they get the votes and the appointments. It's life and I just prefer to live with it. So, take your chances with a new girl or do as is often suggested.....see a well reviewed provider.

Yes, I'm well aware they are Vice, and what their responsibilties are, and that they're handed down a job to do.  I'm not sure what "line" it is you think that has been crossed, but the "they're just doing their job" is the mindless drivel that has allowed people to railroad others or be railroaded as history has shown us.  And I find the tactics used by vice deplorable, and fully understand that they'll lie their asses off in front of a judge or court to make a bust stick.  So, tell me what separates them from what the Nazis did?

People should be careful when seeing anyone new, or even some of the well known ones.  As history on the boards has shown us, even some of the legitimate providers have been used against the hobbiest after getting themselves busted.

Defending LE, vice or otherwise, with the statement "they're just doing their jobs" is the issue I have with this whole thing.  That isn't a defense, it's just a complacent argument, and a phenominally dangerous mindset to allow ourselves as free thinking people to get into.

Didn't mean to ignite a firestorm here, but the response does confirm the seriousness of the LE issue.  I appreciate the comments, but my foray with "Tina" had nothing to do with "cojones" or a "death wish".  It's anger, pure and simple. I've seen our "public servants" at work first hand (Vice), and was shocked at their willingness to break the very laws they are sworn to uphold.  Now I understand why Vice is held in disdain by other departments of the same LE Agencies - lowlifes seem to gravitate there.

To obtain a conviction, I am convinced they need incriminating conversation on tape. The total absence of this makes for a difficult, maybe impossible case.  "Her word against yours" is much harder for a jury to swallow when all taped phone calls and live conversations are completely devoid of any criminal intent.
To be safe, I taped the initial call as well as the live contact.
I left when she pushed too hard for an incriminating statement from me.  The "boys" could have grabbed me if so inclined - but they had nothing to build a case on.  

"Steel Cojones"?  Nah, standard issue and density.  Just a bit of a stubborn streak.  I agree in part with the statement that LE is "just doing their job" - but I refuse to accept their "end justifies the means" mentality.  They are "Officers of the Court", and held to a higher standard - one that all of us have a right to expect them to adhere to.  The day we stop, the day we turn and run from such pathetic examples of authority - is the day we begin to allow the kind of government that too many of our brothers, fathers and friends have died fighting against.
This is a great country, I hope we can keep it that way.

They actually need more than just a taped agreement. They also need you to commit an "act in furtherance." After you have been taped agreeing to the forbiden exchage of money for sex, you will need to do something, like take money or a condom out from your pocket, that indicates your intention to move forward with the crime. Without an "act in furtherance," notwithhstanding your taped agreement, there is no case! For further details, take a peak at California Penal Code Section 647(B), which is where it is all written out.

Hobby Safely
Pecker

Let me see.....The nazis killed approximately 6 million Jewish people.I find there to be a big difference between genocide and giving citations for a law that(unfortunately) restricts us from practicing our hobby more freely.
   By the way, I think the line you were thinking of is, "...just doing as they were ordered". It was a popular defense at Nuremberg(sorry if I spelled that incorrectly).  

-- Modified on 6/18/2003 5:07:08 AM

I'm not criticizing TER.  I'm certain they had good reason.  But it seems a shame.

it is not a good idea to keep that around.  You can still access the review using Rugburn as the reviewer in Search by Reviewer.

Thanks.

Great, but they didn't do it all at one time, it was "just their job".  When it came time to be tried for it, then "I was ordered to do it".  Gee, come to think of it, isn't vice just following orders?

Any moron can pass laws.  If you need any evidence of that, just look at any local, state or federal laws.  They're rife with evidence that any moron can pass them.  If the officers ignore the enforcment of them, and the jury's fail to convict, the laws become moot.  Can you spell jury nullification?  We know that LE selectively overlooks the "enforcment" of laws.  Even though it's their duty to enforce it.

The primary issue I have with this is the statement "they're just doing their job".  It's lame, it's irresponsible, it's a DANGEROUS frame of mentality to get into for thinking people.  It's thinking for the mass of lemmings of our society.

*stepping off soapbox*