sdasians, or The Library.  Any preferences? Anything I should know? Thanks! aka BoC

comes to mind: http://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local/San-Diego-Man-Sentenced-for-Sex-Trafficking-Two-Women-378190801.html

Am I the only one who feels that way?? Am I an idiot for thinking that many young Asian girls in all of those parlors and apartments are in the same predicament as the ones mentioned in the article? I would much rather spend a little more and see any of the independent providers available in this town. At least you will have a clear conscience

I tend to think of the same thing. I prefer someone who is choosing this rather than risk someone being trapped.

They are there on their own free will.  They pay a small portion to the agency owner.  Nobody's forcing them.  

Prostitution is abolutely massive in Thailand.  However, their culture treats it much differently than ours does.  Many girls are open about their profession and don't feel the need to hide it like most girls here do.  It's more ingrained in their culture.  

So, what about these agencies in San Diego?  Well, the exchange rate, when compared to the Thai Bhat, is heavily in our favor.  Therefore, a girl in Thailand can work for $50 a night, which is about a week's salary to a normal Thai citizen, or come to the US and work for $250 an hour.  All they have to do is pay a small portion to the owner and they're flown out here and given a nice apartment to live in.  Not to mention IN THE UNITED STATES!  It's a better situation here for them than it is back home.  

BTW, many of these Thai girls are more intelligent than you guys may thinks.  Most of them speak English fairly well, but will act extra foreign to play out that role.  Talk to them a little if you get the chance.  Many of them are incredibly interesting and will really open up.  For example, one girl I met at The Library actually works independently on the side up in the OC, for slightly less than the agency, but only when she's not working for them.  Another girl really wants me to meet her in Thailand so she can be my tour guide.  One of these days I'll give into her offers.  

Don't play into the media, or even what a few girls here want you to believe.

Clearly know your stuff. I have dated a few if the touring San Diego Kgirls on the outside on their days off.  If they were coerced sex slaves they wouldn't be able to tell the agency owner that they want a certain day off for personal reasons. These girls in San Diego are independent entrepreneurs who use agencies to handle their bookings mainly due to their limited English skills. No exploitation going on here.

Exactly.  If they had the means to afford housing and could speak English well enough, most of them would work independently.  The agencies help them in this regard, not to mention protection.  

there by their own free will because they know the enormous amount of money they can make. I have known several over the decades and they drive foreign (Mercedes, BMW, Jags etc...) cars, own (paid for) a home in America and support their parents back in their home country. They are very good business women (some of who yearly make in the high six digits) and tour and work several AMPs around the country. They will vacation back in their home country for a month or more at a time.  

Yes, there are a small number of women who get tricked/coerced into working, by pimps and trafficking gangs, but the majority of them do this on their own free will. Their mamasan will always collect a "house fee" but the donation you gift them is all theirs. The main thing to remember is ALWAYS cover up; because you might be number 9 for that day.

Why do people on this board, both providers and hobbyists, feel the need to drop those subtle insults concerning how often they work?  Do you really think they're seeing more clients than the independent girls?  Welcome to the business.  If you can't stand the idea of being the tenth client of the day, find a different hobby.

I sure hope you are right, because I regularly see articles about AMP's being busted and working girls there saying that they were being held against their will and forced to have sex with clients. Just google it and you will see what I mean.

besides SDAG and Library?

SDAG for performance, hands down. Library has gotten some really pretty girls recently, performance nowhere near SDAG but it depends on what you're after.

Fear is a powerful motivator.
If word got out that one of the girls is telling clients she is a victim or trafficking what do you think will happen to her?  

Logic dictates they will tell you anything to keep you coming back.  

So trust it if you will but I for one would't want to contribute to the mama-san or papa-san's BMW payments on the back of their "willing" employees. Also, consider how many guys they are seeing per day. Are you number one of number five for the day?

 
I am not interested in an argument or discussion on my perspective.  
This is just my take and hope it could be considered as plausible even if someone reading disagrees.

I can tell you from being with an agency some days I would see 5 clients with only 30min breaks in between. If I was doing a double shift (9am - 9pm) I could even have up to 11 clients in a day though usually the max on those shifts was 9. Mind you this was for massage and only 100 less hourly than the average Asian agency rate. So me being so busy with a limited menu has me convinced these ladies see an average of 4-8 clients per day.

 
It's not a "subtle insult" as you call it.
It's a fact - sorry if it insults you, that's on you and how you choose to take things.

 
Some of us have a background experience and can tell you from first hand situations what time it is.
Maybe it's more pleasant to think these agencies only want their ladies seeing a few guys but they are more interested in profits so if someone wants to book but she has seen four that day already do you really think they will turn that business away when she is already at the location on shift?

Bic - As an avid traveler to BKK, Shanghai, Korea, Manila and HMC I can say you are 110% correct.  It is not the Asian agencies that try to make us believe anything, rather the bored / disgruntled (read washed-up) "provider" in the US who is constantly questioning and providing little tangible proof.  That's just my take but it comes from multiple years experience.

Birdie

Hi Gold - Did you work for an Asian agency because I believe that's what the OP was asking about.  Otherwise while your information mat be helpful, it is totally off topic.  Thanks for your wonderful insights and sharing though.  Birdie

I get what CDL and Bic are saying about Asian agencies, but based on the shear volume of BP ads, businesses changing names, and posts on other sites regarding rates and services, the AMPs seem to be a different story with a higher potential for abuse.

Goldie, for all we know you have a pimp.  You're the biggest fear monger on this board.  

Goldie, do people actually believe you when you tell them you only see one client per day?  Pussy makes some guys very gullible.

sorely misinformed.  Does human trafficking exist in the US?  Most definitely, but is concentrated mostly in the Chinese and Mexican (Hispanic) massage parlor / brothels, where NONE of the girls speak any English.  

I have never seen a Kgirl (or Thai) agency that was forcing girls to be sex workers.  I will offer some examples that shows the agency Kgirls are no different than you.  A current LA Kgirl, who has her own apartment and lives in Seattle, works in LA at an agency incall.  She works three or four weeks, and then takes a few weeks off.  Similarly, another Kgirl I am good friends with and who worked in San Diego a few years ago, has her own apartment in Ktown LA, and works in Seattle and Portland.  I have been a guest at her residence and when she is not working her life is not much different than yours or mine except for the cultural influence of living in Ktown. I'm not going to publish their names, but if you don't believe me, you can PM me, and I will give you both names and you can check them out for yourself.  Both work at Kgirl agencies with bookers, are totally independent, and are free to come and go as they please.  They make their own schedule and decide when and where they will work.  They pay a percentage of the donation they get to the agency owner for use of the fully stocked incall, and the services of the booker for scheduling and screening customers.  They get the money directly, and then pay their work expenses from there.  When was the last time you heard of a "sex slave" collecting the money herself?   I am only using these two as an example, but could name a dozen more that I am personally aware of.

Likewise, I currently have about six +82 (South Korea country code) phone numbers for Kgirls that come here to work periodically, usually for 90-120 days a year.  They earn enough to support themselves in a good lifestyle for the rest of the year in Korea.  I routinely stay in touch with these girls in between their US trips, and have introduced some to new bookers/agencies in other cities when they have asked me.  Two have invited me to visit them for a week in Korea when I had vacation time available, which I did.  It felt like being on vacation with any other civvie girl, not some oppressed sex slave.  

So why do you and many others have this perception that all of these girls are coerced?  Its because of the way LE treats the busts for the benefit of the news media.  When an AAMP is busted, LE looks pretty silly if there is no "victim", so they give the news media the story that these girls are victims and are being exploited.  If the girls don't dispute that, then they have no consequences from being arrested.  In a recent bust in Seattle, NONE of the girls faced any serious consequences for being providers.  However, the agency owners took the brunt of the heat and will serve jail time for "promoting prostitution".  I have another close Kgirl friend that was arrested in a bust in San Jose almost two years ago.  She acted like she didn't speak English very well.  The government treated her as a victim, and she was allowed to take a 20-hour "hooker" school (like traffic school) and have her record completely EXPUNGED.  The irony is that when she had to return to San Jose to attend the aversion classes on Tuesday and Thursday for three weeks, she was working at another agency incall on Monday, Wednesday and Friday.  She is a touring girl, and continues to work for different agencies on a circuit around the US that SHE SCHEDULES HERSELF, including Chicago, DC, Atlanta, SD, OC, LA and Seattle.  

So the bottom line is that for 99% of the Kgirls that work in your industry, they are more like you than they are the common perception of a coerced sex slave.  They are independent entrepreneurs and are no more a trafficked sex worker than you are.

AMP's and AAMP's.  You never hear of girls being forced to work at AAMP's.  The agency owner is not even on the premises, so the two girls working there can walk out at any time, and in fact, are free to do so, but CHOOSE not to leave because they are making so much money.  I had one Kgirl invite me to come a few hours before her shift started one day (I was going to be the first appointment) and go to the pool at the apartment complex for a swim before our session started.  Don't think an exploited sex worker would be allowed to do that.  

On the other hand, AMP's are sometmes fronts for human trafficking and the girls are not there of their own free will.  The owners are always there, and handle all the money.  Girls are lured here with advertisements that they can make good money giving massages (no sex), but once they are here, they are kept in virtual slavery and made to offer sex services in addition to massage services.  With that said, there are also many AMP's where the girls are here voluntarily and know what they are getting into when they come here to work.

... to ponder. Good points of view from each to be considered. Though, I wish GK had not been insulted for simply stating her opinion. Hers is just as valid as anyones.  

I do have first hand knowledge about human trafficing for the sex trade. It is most prevelant in San Diego within the AMP's. I am not calling. SDAG or the Library. I don't know about them. I do know they each require a huge amount of personel information for screening. How trustworthy are the guys/pimps doing the screening? Do you really want to risk your pers data with them or a computer hacker like with Ashley Madison?

The turn over at the AMP's is so high it raises flags for me. CDL and BIC could be absolutely right about them generally. And, if you want variety that could be your ticket. What if Goldie is right? I prefer to at least be reasonably sure of where my money is going and that it is not supporting trafficing, drug cartels or terrorism or even pimps. That is why I stay with indies and wish all of you woud too.  

By the way, I am not Goldies pimp. Haha. She sure as hell does not need one. Lol!

If you go online and start searching for statistics concerning the sex partners the average American male or female has during their lifetime, the numbers appear very low.  I guess you could say we are ALL high volume one way or another.
Are AA girls coerced?  Among the more reputable agencies I'd say the answer is no.  The providers are free to come and go, and do so.  Does your visit fund the mysterious booker's lifestyle?  Without a doubt.  Are AA girls seeing more clients than the average independent?  Yes, I'd say so.  Although I've known some independents to market themselves very aggressively when they had need of funds.  Is trafficking a reality.  Undoubtedly, but from what I've seen and heard, the leading AAs are not involved with that.

So the agencies are merely helping girls make big bucks for a small fee and providing protection as well.  And there's no exploitation there at all! Even the most gullible and naive would have a hard time believing this. It would be very funny if it wasn't so tragic.

From the looks of it, the same people that run AMP's also run agencies. Many Asian ads on BP for massages also repeat in the escorts section as well. Long time ago I called one and they wanted to know the same things as Library : race, age, employer etc. etc.

Once you're screened sdasians is a great go to. The girls are hotties, the incalls are clean, and the service is dependable. If the other concerns keep you away...there are plenty of other options here. I haven't seen anyone at the library, but I'm guessing the experience is about the same.

no insult intended. Just information from first hand knowledge. So why insult independent ladies? Been hobbying since the early 80s before it had a name, so not new to the business by any means. Not my problem, if you have sensitive feelings and can't handle the truth.  

-- Modified on 5/7/2016 11:34:07 PM

Say what you want, but at least I'm not ising an alias.

So, you're telling me the Thai girl from the Library, who asked me to take her out to dinner OTC, who I picked up, took to a restaurant downtown, then invited me back inside the agency's apartment for more OTC fun, is actually being forced?  Wow, her pimp must be a retarded businessman for allowing her to have sex for free when she could be making so much more fucking 24/7!  

Believe me, there is no forcing involved with this woman.  

Guys, providers here will say a lot to discourage you from seeing their competition.  Why do you think they always call me dirty for enjoying he bats in TJ?  Because the last thing they want is for you to realize that place exists.  

If you can't tell the difference between an AMP and one of the GFE Asian agencies, you don't belong in this hobby.  Just stop now because your not only on track to being arrested, but you're providing horrible information to this board.  Again, please stop

Perhaps not all K-agencies and Amp's are involved in trafficking and abuse their girls, but enough do to make me not want to take a chance. Especially since quite a few independent Asian providers are available. It seems Goldie was the only woman brave enough to offer her opinion here. Which is surprising to me because I thought there would be more camaraderie  among  the ladies on this subject. Would be nice to hear their perspective or even experience. Also,  this thread is a perfect example of the need to use an alias sometimes. Anyone saying anything against K-agencies becomes an instant enemy of those who frequent the places.

In fact, she even blocked me for saying I have met her lol. I have been to Tijuana once, but because of the language and the setup it's not for me.  There is another place,  though much farther away that is a true paradise on Earth for hobbying or just picking up young, gorgeous women. Anyone can experience being Hugh Hefner on the budget there. Went there last summer and going this year again. Odessa, Ukraine!

Just this morning there is new pretty bad review of a provider from the Library that sounds anything but gfe. Interestingly enough, in it the reviewer mentions how the girl drew back the curtains, looked in a window and complained that she hasn't been outside for a while..

Bic, you're much smarter than that. Nobody here believes ALL Asian woman here are working against their will.

The point is that there are asian, russian and other nationalities, even americans, working here against their will. The majority of them are asians. They may even have a lot of freedom to move about provided they share with their pimps and come home to the fold. Who knows what kind of leverage may be held over their heads here or back home.

The woman you saw OTC, obviously she is not in that category. Don't belittle those who express valid opinions, especially when they are open about it and not using an alias.

"Indy" means her pimp stays in the parking lot during the date.

Providers are independent as often their pictures are real.

She's probably busy making ten years worth of salary in one month for her family back home in Thailand to even want to go outside.  Don't you get that?  Do you know how far $200 gets you in Thailand?  

Or she was being forced to remain inside and raped all day by multiple men.  Who really knows?  

Believe what you want.  This board has gone to shit.   -- Modified on 5/8/2016 11:20:24 AM

your posts are well thought out and articulate, but that doesn't mean they are right.  I think your perception that you are an "enemy" is because you don't speak from experience on this topic.  You are speculating, as is Goldie.  In eight years, I have seen over 300 agency girls of various ethnicities, and developed some extraordinary friendships along the way.  You invite "comaraderie among the ladies" but I doubt any of them have been inside an AAMP either, so again, it would be speculation and heresay.  Consequently, your point that this is a good time to use an alias is not well taken.  If you showed your reviews, and had agency girls among them, you would have credibility when you give your opinion that others are naive if they believe they are not seeing trafficked girls.  

There are two main giveaways that you might be in a trafficking establishment.  The first is that there are more girls than available rooms.  If you enter a massage parlor with three or four rooms, and there are eight girls sitting in the waiting room, then they are most like being trafficked.  The second is the smell.  Trafficking establishments smell of body odor and sweat.  As I said earlier, you will mostly find this in the storefront massage parlors, not the upscale apartment incalls that most Kgirls work out of.  I have only encounted these two conditions in storefront operations, and when I did, I turned right around and walked back out.  For the last few years, I don't bother with storefronts at all.  If its not an agency with two girls working out of an upscale apartment complex, I simply would not go in.

END OF MESSAGE

.... well, for the same reasons CDL stated above. But, Bic, while I respect your opinions, I won't say the board is shit because you disagree with me. I think all the posts on this thread have valid points. It comes down to this: Sex trafficking is alive and well in San Diego County. Not all agencies, AMP's etc. are involved in trafficking. Some are. How do you tell the difference? I don't know but CDL pointed out some signs to look for. Those of us more concerned about slavery, stated our opinions and we choose to avoid the establishments for the reasons stated. Overall, this thread has had a very good exchange of information for all to think about and consider.

As for more providers contributing, well ... GK took some shit because she stated her view and I doubt very seriously it has anything to do with fear of competition. Seriously? Come on, guys, really? Goldie has no competition from Asian providers and they have no competition from her. It's like Pizza and steak. You go to one restaurant for one and another for the other. They get along great in the same complex. Get real.  

I want .... I would love to see more providers participate here. I think all us guys would like that. But if some are going to attack them when they do then they are not going to contribute. I think, and I could be wrong, the accusation of GK stating her opinion for competitive reasons made them think twice. That's sad.

Without input from the ladies on this site, well ... then Bic may be right. But, the board ain't dead yet.

Listen CDL,  I sure hope you're right and girls in some of these agencies can come and go as they please. What I want to know is why they all have such rigid routines with the clients? Mouthwash, shower, bbj preview in the shower, on to the bedroom and so on. Who came up with that and why? My efforts to mix things up were very unsuccessful. During the last visit, after exiting the shower I laid down on my back instead of my front. That apparently freaked the girl out and she seemed lost at what to do next. For the next several minutes she tried very hard to make me turn over....

hobbyists wrongly assume that all agency Asian girls offer BBFS.  They do not.  Some don't offer CIM either.  Oftentimes, customers will press for these and other off-menu services and be refused.  They retaliate by writing a bad review, a kind of hit-piece.  Many indie girls experience the same thing, except they are more savvy about how to get TER to remove the review. For that reason, you can't put much stock in a single review.  When a girl gets more then 10 reviews, then you look at the averages, and look for reviewers names that you know you can trust.  Draw your conclusions from that.  Even the best of the best will sometimes have outlier reviews that are low.  I saw one in LA where a girl has all 9-9's except for one 6-6.  I think we can assume the guy that wrote the 6-6 review has some kind of agenda, and just ignore that one in evaluating whether or not to see the girl.  

With that said, the reason they work ten hour days (which I agree gives the APPEARANCE that they are coerced) is because from the moment they step off the plane, the clock starts ticking on the expiration of their tourist visa, usually 90 days, so they want to make as much as they can while they are here, because they will live off of it for the other 9 months of the year, until they can get a new visa to return.

stick to the script on the first session with a new customer.  When you repeat, they will be more at ease and will go with the flow.  They start with the massage because many of the customers are  new to the hobby and a little freaked out by the whole experience.  By starting them on their stomach, there is no eye contact and the guys junk is not exposed.  Meanwhile she can begin skin to skin contact to get him relaxed and lower his heart rate so he can enjoy the rest of the session.  

The "routine" was developed in order to try to get through all of the activities and sexual positions in an hour so that every customer will get what they like most somewhere along the way.  I have had a few that were annoying myself in their rigidity.  Read my review of Heri in LA.  If you see veteran Kgirls with more than 20 reviews, they are more than willing to let you take the lead and skip the routine if you seem experienced, confident, and know what you are doing around the female body to give them a little pleasure.  

-- Modified on 5/8/2016 6:41:57 PM

In my experience, the outliers and bad reviews always turned out to be the most accurate ones. It's has been especially true with Asian agencies. Whenever a new girl is introduced by an AA, her first review or couple of reviews are always 10/9 or 10/10 and then they invariably go downhill from there. Often a long way down. Which make question the credibility of the first reviewer. Personally, I suspect it's just a shill working with the agencies to help new girls get started with good reviews. As to your suggestion to see a girl several times in order to break the routine. I tried, but every time the girls are gone already. Agencies shuttle them so often, it's impossible to make one into a regular.

"Agencies shuttle them so often, it's impossible to make one into a regular."

Exactly!  Isn't it great?  

This way they know my likes and dislikes and I know theirs. Seeing different providers every time is just not my thing.

As mentioned, GK has chimed in with her "speculation." Would piling on from other Indies be useful here?  

While I agree that there's really no direct competition between "highly reviewed" providers and K-girl agencies, do you expect a live and let live response?

Maybe if a former K-agency turned indy came forward, she'd have more than just speculation to share. Otherwise, this is one of those topics best discussed/debated between the hobbyists here that have either been customers of the agencies, visited storefront AMPs or have a curiosity about either. Nothing wrong with that, and it doesn't mean the San Diego ladies are boycotting this board.

I don't expect providers to chime in on every topic. Some are best left to the guys. My hope though, is the girls will participate more whenever they read a post they have an opinion on. On other boards I even see providers initiating threads. That is not too common here. I am aware that there are times a lady may be risking her business to post some opinions and I don't expect them to add their opinions when the topic is so tilted.

I don't know for sure, in the same way that I don't know for sure if the independent providers I see are not funneling funds to a boyfriend or pimp.  That having been said, I've visited sdag providers a few times.  Either they are completely brainwashed or they do seem to take pride in their work.  I've found that they regularly go above and beyond minimal service and they really seem to enjoy getting their clients off.  I've found they universally express disappointment when they get me to the edge and over early in a session and they can't get round two out if me.  Also even after the main event they want to continue with some therapeutic massage so I get my full time.  Part of this may be wishful thinking on my part, but they do seem to get into the session.  On top of that Ive had texting and phone conversations with fellow hobbyists and the booker that indicate that providers working for this and other AA's have a good deal of personal choice and are taken care of in terms of their medical needs.  I don't pretend to know the whole picture but I don't think these main agencies are involved in trafficking.  If anyone has proof to the contrary I readily listen.

three sessions a week, usually two 2-hour sessions with regulars, and then a one-hour session with someone new.  Out of the new girls, some will eventually become regulars.  Because of the nature of the way these girls come over for about 90 days at a time, I have overlapping regulars so that I am covered for a whole year.  A girl will be one of my regulars for 90 days, and then again for another 90 days next year.  Meanwhile the rest of the year is filled up with other "regulars" who are here when I need them.  Staying in touch while they are in Korea keeps the connection going so we can just pick up where we left off when they return.

Actually the provider's comment is one that I've heard more than once.  Their work conditions do involve being indoors and out of sight with the curtains drawn.  I've had them ask me what the weather was like outside and say they would love.to be enjoying the sun.  It's not coercion that they are complaining about but I guess you could say that the work protocols that the agency requires weigh on them sometimes.