This is a link to an excerpt of a new book on Time Mag's websight. The CIA received Al Quaeda plans (through a mole) of a machine that could release poison gas with easily obtainable chemicals. The gas was very similar to the gas that the Nazis used at the camps. The CIA built the prototype and it did indeed work. The plot was called off 45 days prior to zero hour for unknown reasons.
We need to keep this in mind the next time someone (John Kerry in 2004) says that Bush is overstating the threat of terrorism. Remember this the next time the ACLU starts crying about domestic surveillence or Guantanamo Bay.
The most baffling thing to me is Bush critics state that Iraq is a diversion from the real threats. Yet these same critics don't want us to be aggressive on the domestic front either. Is there any more of a real threat than Americans being murdered on US soil?
-- Modified on 6/18/2006 8:07:58 AM
New York City's anti-terrorism budget cut 40% by Department of Homeland Security.
Homeland security cuts NYC's anti-terrorism budget by 40% while raising the budgets of other high-priority cities like Omaha, Louisville, Ky., and Charlotte, N.C.
According to the Department of Homeland Security, NYC has no landmarks or icons (if you ignore the Statue of Liberty, the Empire State Building, the Brooklyn Bridge, Times Square, etc.).
The decision was made by a "secret" panel of experts. Since no one besides the inner circle knows who is in that committee, we can't question their qualifications.
Part of the the reason given for the cut was that NYC filled out their application incorrectly. I guess Homeland Security believes in "paperwork before lives".
http://www.ny1.com/ny1/content/index.jsp?stid=8&aid=59907
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/06/15/AR2006061501345.html
http://www.forbes.com/technology/feeds/ap/2006/06/05/ap2795019.html
http://www.enidnews.com/opinion/local_story_162233933.html
-- Modified on 6/18/2006 7:50:51 PM
except being a Bush crony.
Rule 1: Don't look better than the boss. Given that the BIPARTISAN 9/11 commission thinks his administration ignored a system blinking red before 9/11, we should not be surprised that chasing down the 9/11 perps has been so incompetent.
I think that "rightwinger" et al. might have more credibility if they occasionally dissented from the 'party' line. I certainly have no problem saying that Hillary Clinton is full of it, when she goes off on flag-burning and/or violence in video games -- as in, is that all she has to worry about? Why is it so hard for "rightwinger" to admit that the above DHS cutbacks are a blunder?
Al Qaida made multiple bombing attempts against the World Trade Center, because it represents the economic might of the U.S. Similarly, Al Qaida successfully attacked the Pentagon in D.C. because it represents the nerve center of our military. Can't remember if the target of Flight 93 was the White House or Congress, but either one would have represented a major blow to our federal government.
One could argue that Al Qaida has successfully outmaneuvered the U.S. because they understand the value of 'symbols' more than Rove, Cheney etc.
Following that train of logic, in what bizzaro world would we cut antiterror expenditures in NY or DC, in favor of Omaha? If Al Qaida were to attack Nebraska, their world-wide base would think that they had gone off their rocker....much like our dear leader attacking Iraq...for no reason.
Interesting but seems unreal. All the lucky braks went our way? How does one read between the lines of this?
I suspect the Al Quaeda gents probably would have been mugged by NYC's tremendous population of indigenous terrorists before they managed to get their device up and running.
Mossad agents cleverly disguised as Chassidic diamond merchants captured and killed the al Qu-ai'da terrorists, who made the mistake of disguising themselves as the Dixie Chicks. The facial hair gave them away.
Either that, or it was just more bilge pumped out by the Bush/Cheney propaganda machine.
The success of the Aum Shinri Kyo doomsday cult in Tokyo's subways in 1995 proved that it can be done, with devastating results.
Truth be told, considering that it HASN'T happened in the NY subways already means SOMEONE is doing their job.
I kinda like my version though. It has more panache.
Yes, it certainly does.
But had it actually been the case, god only knows how many times we would already have been treated to the endless repitition of yet another triumph over Islamofascist terrorism due to the timely and invaluable assisatance of guess who.
And what part of
"yet another triumph over Islamofascist terrorism due to the timely and invaluable assisatance of guess who"
is distasteful to you?
voted overwelmingly for Kerry in 2004...They, along with 48% of the voters, did NOT buy the rights spin machine saying Kerry wouldn't fight terrorism; blah blah blah....
The right sure knew how to apply the politics of spin & fearmongering in the 2004 election...
TRy and connect 9/11 to Iraq
rightwinger mentions an Al Qaida plot then the start of his last paragraph he tries to connect in a sly way the Iraq War to 9/11.
rightwinger. even Bush now admits Iraq wasn't involved in 9/11 or Al Qaida. Why do you still push the idea it was?
Give me a break! That's just one of many threat's that go on all the time. The average US citizen is more likely to die on the road because of some moron running their mouth and not paying attention than any terrorist attack. When people live in fear of this kind of stuff they've won! There was no logical reason in hell to pull off of Osama Bin Laden to invade Iraq and Suddam Hussein. It's like having an active serial killer roaming around free but instead of going after him and making sure he's caught, you change your plan's and go after some clown who did some awful thing's 20 years ago. Not to mention the fact that Saddam could have been dealt with 13 years ago if he really needed to be. It's kind of funny to hear people saying that George W is rigth and know's what he's doing. His dad George H, who was involved in intelligence most of his life evidently realized what a fucked up mess it would be doing what we're doing now. Before you start throwing around the liberal this and liberal that bullshit, they're just as guilty. A large majority of them gave the buffoon in power now carte blanche to do whatever he wanted to do. So here we are, losing our freedom's everyday.
that silly Bill of Rights if you want to stay alive. Only I know the way to protect you.
it's just that he's no more competent at catching terrorists than he is at forming a coherent sentence.
That's what we should expect. After all, the Republicans have other priorities - other priorities than doing anything like service to their country, instead of lining their own pockets.
This story is bullshit. The threat of the USA getting hit again is bullshit. The documents they found in Iraq are bogus. If only Al Jazeera said it maybe you guys would believe it.
I guess the only way you can justify the "Do Nothing" strategy is to convince yourself that the only danger in the world is Bush. Neville Chamberlain is one of histroy's biggest cautionary tales. In his defense, he didn't have his example to learn from. What's your excuse? You guys are truly what Lenin had in mind when he coined the term "USEFUL IDIOTS".
I can't believe that America doesn't trust you with national security. Stupid slack jawed yokels! All 61,000,000 of them.
-- Modified on 6/18/2006 8:04:26 PM
You're right. Some people never learn.
You're good at calling people idiots and taking every tit-bit of information Chainy the torturer lets you suck on. I'd call you a useful idiot, but I'm not at all sure you're useful.
I don't see how a bad strategy that sets your country back 40 years is better than "do nothing," except the first might let you self-medicate, for a while.
I find it hard to believe that they intercepted a message, couldn't pin down the guys, had time to build a prototype, and then found out the plan was cancelled for "unknown reasons." If they had arrested these guys, I know the administration would boast about that. So like Osama, they got away, and they are still at large-- in our country.
After finding out all of this information, they didn't catch these guys, but the plan was just cancelled. It looks to me like the administration was almost as lethargic and stupid about this as they were about 911. That is, if the story were believable.
So, we have terrorists attacking us here. Why are we in Iraq?
All of the Al Quada's top officer's continue to get killed. Your response; "It's just one guy". "No big deal".
There have been no terrorist attacks on US soil since 9/11. Your response" "It's not because of Bush". "It's so unfair that he arrests people".
The press continues to shine the spotlight on EVERYTHING that doesn't go right (Imagine something not going right in a war. Wow!). Any time the press actually broadcasts something good happening, your response: "It's bullshit"!
Once again, Al Qaeda is now a loose decentralized group of thugs that are getting blown to shit on a daily basis. When OBL is killed, is the war over in your heads? Do you really think it works that way?
Lenin called all of the western intellectual apologists for communism "useful idiots". Is there anyone more useful to terrorism that you idiots? All of the documents (I know. Bogus.)we find show that the terrorist's moral is low. We are no longer the "paper tiger" (Remember Clinton)we once were. They are getting killed and making no progress. The only group that seems to believe they are winning and trying to raise their moral are you idiots!
Welcome to the fringe boys. Enjoy your stay.
you realize of course, that you are a perfect microcosm of whats wrong with this country.
Your blind partisanship and unwillingness to engage in constructive dialog with opposing viewpoints, prefering to hurl invective and epithets rather than engage in constructive discussion, is exactly whats wrong with this country.
Do you really believe what you are saying? Or has it just been ingrained into you by the steady barrage of fearmongering and Hatred spread out over the world like flies on shit by the Minions of Evil, so you don't have to think for yourself.
Its ok to be a conservative. Its ok to be a liberal. Differences of opinion among people of good conscience is what drives progress and constructive dialog.
you do not engage in dialog. you, like the plethora of right wing talk radio buffoons festering on our airwaves, merely throw out invective, hoping some of it will stick to the walls, covering up the truth of the matter.
Wheres the constructive dialog in that?
People should focus on facts, not ideology.
When a person or agency focuses on the interpretation of facts exclusively, ie., assuming that facts must conform to their perception, they've become confused, thinking they're running the universe. That's what makes an ideologue.
Unfortunately, these people can't be reasoned with. There is no sense trying to negotiate a person's faith; and of course the religious right is clearly the Republican's margin of victory. Those people have to go before politics can become a matter of different groups cooperating for the common good.
Forgot who first said it that we fall into 3 broad categories: The washington politicians who think they run the country, the Wall Street crowd who actually run the country and the rest who believe that Elvis is still alive and runs the country! If this dilemma is overcome, the facts can be addressed
Wait a minute! I've been to Graceland. you mean to tell me Elvis ISN'T running things???
Glenn Beck, Rush Limbaugh, & others aren't interested in meaningful dialogue at all..They merely engage in ultra mean-spirited name calling & cheap shots...But, there is a market for this - as they have alot of listeners (readers in Ann's case) who are as equally angry & hateful as these pundits....These listeners are the type that go on message boards & instead of trying to argue points; they'll say things like "John Kerry is a commie" - "Ted Kennedy is a fat liberal pig", etc. etc..There's no reasoning with these people, they can't formulate a good argument, they can only name-call & sling mud..
Don't put it in quotes and misquote me, please.
Quote me on this, it's an extreme violation of rights that he arrests people around the world, doesn't give them a trial, doesn't charge them, doesn't grant them POW status. There is no argument with this. This nation originated rights. That is the very things we put people on trial at Nuremberg and the very thing for which we despised of the Soviet Union.
It's far beyond unfair. It's criminal. So, I'll ask the loaded question: what do you have in common with Bolshevism and Nazism? I'm not saying you're either, but how do you justify agreeing with Chainy Dick and Bushwacker about police state tactics? Moreover, how do you get the government off people's backs with a policy like that?
I pointed out the fallacy in your thinking that Bush's police state and his Iraq policy had anything to do with stopping terror. No attacks since 9/11-- so Bush has prevented it: post hoc ergo proctor hoc. It is a formally recognized logical error, since before Latin was the dominant language.
Nevertheless, perhaps he has now, but I need better evidence of that than what you presented to start this thread. From what we're doing in Iraq, and the police state Bushwacker is erecting, I frankly don't see why anybody has to make an attack. We've totally alienated the Arabs-- except for our protectorate governments in Saudi Arabia and Egypt.
No, I hardly think capture of OBL will win the war. However, since Bush said he would leave no stone unturned to find him, and since OBL was responsible for 9/11, I feel obligated to remember that Bushwacker hasn't captured the criminal responsible, but has sunk us into Iraq instead. If OBL were neutralized now... have you heard the phrase too little too late?
Yes, there are people more useful to terrorist than me. People who turn 2 people into anti- American terrorists for every one that we kill or neutralize, and meanwhile deplete our armed forces. Just like we're doing in Iraq and Guantanemo, it seems. I will point out that there are a billion muslims in the world, and about 300 million people in the US. In theory, if we keep up on our Iraqi policy, keep putting people into detention under torture and without rights we can manufacture terrorists forever. We will lose.
That's not idiocy. Find the flaw in what I wrote. run the numbers yourself.
I'm surprised that you believe any "papers" found written by Zarqawi. Who was the high command he was reporting to? Was he looking for reinforcements? Was it a "Please send money, Osama" note?
Rightwinger, have you heard of agiprop? Do you think it's something that only other governments do? Or do you think it's something your government wouldn't do after it has otherwise shown an affinity for police state tactics? And has been caught in the act with agiprop, I will add.
-- Modified on 6/22/2006 12:06:10 AM
have become a conduit to disseminate this crap and become accomplices of the Bushy-Chainy-Rumsy-Rovey team intent to stay in power forever.....
You guys have all of a sudden become pious?? How many times have I benn cursed out on this board? How many times have I been told that I "am what is wrong with this country"? How many times have I been called an idiot?
Now you're taking the high ground? For those who do not know. "Useful Idiots" is an actual term used by Lenin. History has a way of repeating itself, or at least drawing parallels. I do think it bests describes what is happening today. There are many Americans that are invested our failure. Anything less would prove them wrong.
And for Mr. Moose and the others who complain about the "mean" Reuublican pundits. Do you ever listen to your own people? Has there ever been a more maligned president (maybe Reagan)? We don't hold a candle to you guys in the "mean" contest.
really took off w/the Morton Downey Jr. Show (in his case TV) in the late 1980's on WWOR....I was a teenager at that time, but remember that being the first time I saw such in your face talk...
Seriously, who on the left can match the far-right pundits in a "mean" contest?..Sure, sites like Democratic Underground can be mean, I'll give you that, but no left pundit has ever been as vile as Ann & the others...
As far as Reagan, back in the early-mid 80's, there wasn't much talk radio/TV & Carson ruled late night,(he was never mean to anyone), so not sure who would have bashed Reagan, certainly nothing like what Clinton went thru when FOX came around..
The newpapers ruled back in Reagan was Pres. NY Times writers said things like "He was too stupid to tie his own shoelaces". Back during Clinton's presidency there was no one more vicious than Carville and Bagala. Any woman that dare out Clinton became "Trailer Trash".
He's not clear when this prototype was made.
But I suspect that his source is some blog that even Coulter won't use, or we'd have heard about it.
Taking it as true, then, as you point out, these people are still running around loose. I'm sure that's so that Bush can claim that terrorists are threatening us, so we should bomb some Arabs. Or maybe Tehran. Korea would be close enough.
that since Saddam was not involved with 9/11, and he has no WMD, what we should do is go and knock him over, hoping al qaeda will come to us.
Well, some did. Some were also manufactured, and some of those insurgents had nothing to do with al qaeda, just wanted to kill the people who came into their country shooting.
Meanwhile, OBL is still running around loose, and so are the people who allegedly planned this subway operation.
The solution for these problems is obvious. Let's find the slackjawed sumbitch whose watch this happened on - you know, the fellow who doesn't see the parallels between Iraq and Vietnam because - well, because he never thought about it - or maybe he's just lying - take your pick - and let's make that stupid sumbitch President for Life, eh?
That sounds like a swell idea. The only better idea I can think of is just forget all this terrorist stuff, and plant a webcam in Condi's bedroom, and see who she's fucking.
" The only better idea I can think of is just forget all this terrorist stuff, and plant a webcam in Condi's bedroom, and see who she's fucking."
That was an image i could have done without.
you do have to admit it's a better idea than keeping Bush in office.
Since I'm old enough to remember the screw ups. The parallels between Iraq and Vietnam are real. The difference is they know how to handle the press a whole lot better. No pictures of dead people or coffins on the nightly news. The body count isn't posted like before. That would be truly un-Amercian. Cheney on Meet the Press said that our effort in Irag will be a sucesss because of our adept handling of affairs in El Salvador. That was our proving ground. Just ask John Marlan Poindexter the father of the Information Awareness Office precursor to the NSA wire taps.
Keep going, and we'll hit 58K soon enough.
Your comment is stupid as ever. The number of deaths is much less the point than the usefulness of their work - are these fellows actually doing anything that will benefit the nation? Or are they on a wild goose chase?
Nobody here from the right will discuss the issue. You obviously don't know what you're talking about.
And I admit, I get pissed when chickenhawks start talking about what a great idea it is for somebody else to go fight over something that is dubious at best. In fact, the whole nation should be pissed about this. Yellow ribbons don't cut it, pal. Get your ass into the field and do your part before you run your mouth, so that you learn some small part of what's at issue.
McNamara could claim ignorance. He really didn't know what the fuck he was doing, but the mistake was honest. But Nixon couldn't say that - he was wilful & reckless. His plan was to bang somebody else's head against the wall hoping something would change.
So what's Dubya's plan here to justify the cost? Why won't he share it with us?
I'll tell you why: the concept of forcing democracy down a nation's throat is absurd and self-defeating.
Here's a clue, dolt: soldiers are not cops, and they aren't social workers. They kill people and break things, period. They cannot change a political culture, and trying to do that is counterproductive, and bloody costly.
Politics is a matter of moral authority. A cop's gun is only for the .0001%. His moral authority and acceptance by the community is the ONLY reason he isn't killed. If he doesn't speak the language, and really isn't sure who the bad guys are, he's already dead.
Now extrapolate that to Iraq, fool.
Stop playing this "war hero" bullshit with me. It's boring. You sound like Murtha. The problem is I'm not Tim Russert and I won't give you a free pass.
So you really think (hope) we're going to lose 58,000 soldiers? Keep crossing those fingers.
So we're forcing Democracy? Funny how everybody goes out there and votes considering they don't want a democracy! They risk their lives and vote at a much higher percentage that we do in this country. That to you is self-defeating?
Now go and up those meds Rambo.
that you could be feeling guilty about talking tough without knowing anything about what you're talking about. And I grant, you should be feeling like a putz when you're so anxious for somebody else to do the dirty work, when you haven't thought it through.
I suppose, that next to you, I'm a fucking hero because I showed up and did my tour. Yeah, I know exactly where I was, and it wasn't working on my daddy's campaign, not working on my golf game, and I sure as hell wasn't getting drunk.
I suppose there is an issue of hypocrisy in the Republican position. The bigger issue, to me, is using your brains about what you're doing; ie, is the cure of going into Iraq and losing God knows what, and creating God knows what mess, worse than the disease of living with Saddam?
But you'd have no way of gauging any of that, would you? Because you don't begin to know what I'm talking about.
If you're bored, I suggest you sign up and find out what you've been beating your gums about.
Thank you for your service to the country.
Actually, I think I was lucky for the OJT in life.
I see your cheerleader Coulter thinks he's "the reason soldiers invented fragging" - like she would know.
Fragging was more a media event, man bites dog, than reality. But the most predictable way to piss off and scare the shit out of the troops was if they didn't think you knew what you were doing, and were going to get them into trouble, or killed needlessly. You know, people who didn't think things thru, who went off half-cocked. And ESPECIALLY the guys who always managed to stay in the rear with the gear, when they sent others off on fool's errands. They did not mind at all if somebody like that got a dose of his own medicine.
What can I say, except GW Bush? Coulter is just another ignorant Republican blowhard who doesn't know what the fuck she's talking about.
Coulter is the reason doctors invented late term abortion.
And the word for the day is, as always, Sign Up, Or Shut Up.
I remind you, South Vietnam had some equally successful elections.
No, I don't believe he hopes for defeat. I don't. When it's staring you in the face, it's not hope that makes you see it. It's "hope" that blinds you. Hope that makes you stupid.
The only defeat I hope for is of Republicans.
plan (to convert military force into political stability) has doomed this adventure from the beginning to be a fool's errand.
Plans rarely succeed unless you have one. Hanging out and hoping for the best is not a plan. Mirandizing locals after you break down their doors does not sell democracy. They have to do it themselves - we cannot do it for them.
Iraq is an artificial state in the midst of the scorpion's nest called the Mideast. There are so many vendettas there that it's impossible to calculate. IMHO, the most realistic occupation plan involves a Korean level of committment - ie a couple of armies for an indefinite time - but of course there will be endemic violence, and the best way to eliminate that would be to put Iraq on welfare. IOW, the cost is long term and very high, both in blood and money. Is that realistic? The inability to even estimate the cost - because it was and is impossible to guess the results over the decades it will take - is what makes me believe, from the beginning, that we need to define & circumscribe our goals. Killing Saddam's govt and leaving the place to the local wolves looks like a more realistic plan than we had.
Getting into that mess, when we're trying to decapitate al-qaeda, is likely to have been a fatal distraction. The belief that al-qaeda would come to us in Iraq, unless they knew they were on winning terms, was a pipe dream.
The govt is full of people who know this. They are not calling the shots. We are doing this despite the lack of a realistic plan to stabilize Iraqi politics because IT'S NOT ABOUT IRAQ. Iraq is collateral damage.
What it's about is serving the Republican constituency - maintaining the power of the Republican interests, and selling the Jesus people and trusting red staters on the idea that muslims = terrorists = war.
And it's close. The hard-core Dems are energized, but they're also pretty pathetic. What is hurting the GOP is their recurring snafus, like Plame, and the lack of progress in Iraq, that makes the steady mid-level managers, and people like Murtha, turn against them. You have to understand that a lot of American business and bureaucracy is managed by people who don't have Bush's problems articulating themselves, and have a hard time identifying with a person who does.
And while a lot of the US military has boundless faith in their ability to do anything (even move the civil service) they are also repulsed by people who found a way to be somewhere else when the dirty work had to be done.
No, they're not dumb, they're disingenuous.
I will spell it out for the lurkers. It's not about the number of deaths. It's about whether those lives are wasted. When you go in, do you know what you're doing? Is it likely that you're going to accomplish something that makes the risk worthwhile? Have you thought about what the likely result of your expedition is going to be? Well?
What's the plan here, buddy? Hang around and hope for the best? Hand out popsicles and money until everybody likes us? Stand in the kill zone until they start drafting chickenhawks?
Military force is NOT the solution for everything. Force canNOT make people like you, and when you turn your back, you should expect they will knife you. Leaders owe it to their people not to waste their lives - like you'd have any concept of this.
Classic Republican: Ann Coulter talking about fragging Murtha. As if she'd ever held a grenade.
No, this is about American politics. It's a cultural divide, with Coulter, Pat Robertson, et al behind the GOP, and the Democrats trying to organize everybody else - including people as disparate as Al Sharpton and Murtha. The reason Republicans can control the govt with a 2-1 regaistration against them is that they have money and Jesus freaks behind them, and they are disciplined, and unprincipled. They do believe, as Coulter expressed, that there is nothing too low to justify their power.
As you may have noticed, I asked Jack0 to look for differences as well as parallels. He could not find any (or chose not to). The best he could come up with was to tell me to STFU (and then complained that I didn't respond to him).
**sigh**
and they're doing an incredibly better job.
But they aren't the State Dept, nor the Cabinet. The military cannot conduct politics. They cannot make a nation want democracy, or teach them how to get along with each other. The ONLY thing they can do - and they do it frighteningly well - is blow things up. That only works to get bad guys out of the way. It does not turn bad guys into good ones, and it will not cure Mideast politics.
The fundamental problem is that you have politicians running the show who are concerned about one thing only, and that is their own power.
They have no experience or concern with pacification, and cannot imagine any sort of politics other than threatening people.