This was written by a U.S. senator and former Marine.

What if today's reporters had covered the Marines landing on Iwo Jima, a small island in the far away Pacific Ocean, in the same way they're covering the war in Iraq? Here's how it might have looked:

DAY 1

With the aid of satellite technology, Cutie Cudley interviews Marine Pfc. John Doe, who earlier came ashore with 30,000 other Marines.

Cutie: "John, we have been told by the administration that this island has great strategic importance because if you're successful, it could become a fueling stop for our bombers on the way to Japan. But, as you know, we can't be sure this is the truth. What do you think?"

Pfc. Doe: "Well, I've been pinned down by enemy fire almost ever since I got here and have had a couple of buddies killed right beside me. I'm a Marine and I go where they send me. One thing's for sure, they are putting up a fight not to give up this island."

Cutie: "Our military analysts tell us that the Japanese are holed up in caves and miles of connecting tunnels they've built over the years. How will you ever get them out?"

Pfc. Doe: "With flame throwers, ma'am."

Cutie (incredulously): "Flame throwers? You'll burn them alive?"

Pfc. Doe: "Yes ma'am, we'll fry their asses. Excuse me, I shouldn't have said that on TV."

Cutie (audible gasp): "How horrible!"

Pfc. Doe (obviously wanting to move on): "We're at war ma'am."

(A Marine sergeant watching nearby yells, "Ask her what does she want us to do — sing to them, 'Come out, come out, wherever you are. Pretty please.' "

Cutie: "Pfc. Doe, what's that mountain in the background? Is that the one they say is impregnable?"

Pfc. Doe: "I don't know what that word means, ma'am, but that's Mt. Suribachi, and we're going to put a flag right up on top of it just as soon as we can. I gotta go."

Cutie to camera: "No one has yet really confirmed why this particular battle in this particular place is even being waged. Already, on the first day, at least 500 Marines have been killed and a thousand wounded. For this? (Camera pans to a map with a speck of an island in the Pacific. Then a close up of nothing but black volcanic ash). For this? For this?" (Cutie's sweet voice becomes more strident as it fades out.)


DAY 2

At 7 a.m., Cutie's morning show opens with a shot of hundreds of dead bodies bobbing in the water's edge. Others are piled on top of each other on shore. After a few seconds, one can see Marines digging graves to bury the dead.

Cutie: "There is no way the Marines could have expected this. Someone got it all wrong. No one predicted this. This has been a horrible 24 hours for our country. This is a slaughterhouse. After all this fighting, Marines control only about a mile and a half of beach and the casualties are now over 3,500 and rising rapidly. We'd like to know what you think. Call the number on the bottom of the screen. Give us your opinions on these three questions:

1. Were the Marines properly trained?
2. Is this nothing of an island worth all these lives?
3. Has the president once again misled the American people?

"After the break, we'll ask our own Democratic and Republican analysts, both shouting at the same time, of course, what they have to yell about all this. It should make for a very shrill, provocative morning.

"But before we leave this horrible — some will say needless — scene, let us give you one more look at this Godforsaken place where these young Americans are dying. Volcanic ash, cold, wet miserable Marines just thankful to be alive. And still no flag that we had been promised on that mountain. Things have gone from bad to worse in this obviously misguided military operation. One thing is certain, there should be and there will be a high-partisan — make that bi-partisan — congressional inquiry into this."


DAY 3

Cutie: "Marines continue to be locked in a life-or-death struggle over this worthless piece of real estate in the middle of the Pacific. The word 'quagmire' is being used in the U.S. Senate, a body very familiar with quagmires. Senator Blowhard has called it 'a colossal military blunder.' And Senator Bombast maintains it was a fraudulent scheme hatched while the president was on his sixth vacation at the Little White House in Georgia.

"The recently organized Senate Squeakers Group may ask for the president to resign. They maintain that politics should not stop at the waters edge in times of war, calling that tradition an old-fashioned idea that has no place in the new century of dysfunctional government. Over forty special interest groups concurred and all issued identical news releases."

"We now turn to our politicalanalyst,James Crankville."

(James):"Cutie,the overnight poll numbers have hit this president right between the eyes. Nationwide, an overwhelming 98 percent said that if possible, they would like to see this country fight a war without a single American casualty. That is nearly the same percentage we saw three days ago when the American public said they would be in favor of going to war if we could win without firing a shot. So, you can see there is a trend developing here that spells trouble for this administration."

"That this president is going ahead with this war is just unbelievable. The witty New York Times columnist, Myscream Loud, wrote in her inimitable fashion that 'The president's policy is as crippled as his legs.' (giggle) Last week she said he had reached the point where no one will 'Fala' him. F-A-L-A, his dog, get it (more giggles)? Has that woman got a way with words! Go girl."


DAY 4

Cutie (holds up front page of the New York Times): "This morning, the New York Times had this photo on the front page. As you can see, the Marines have finally raised a flag on Mt. Suribachi on Iwo Jima. The fighting is still going on but it looks like this battle is over. We tried to find Pfc. Doe, the young Marine I interviewed that terrible first day, but he was unavailable. Here is Corporal Smith though. (With girlish enthusiasm). "Well, we see that flag flying. It's pretty much over isn't it?"

Cpl. Smith: "Oh, no ma'am, it's not over by any means. We've got weeks of fighting and dying to go yet. This place is a long ways from being secured. But we did get that flag up there and it sure makes us all proud."

Cutie: "I can't tell much from the photo. Their faces are not even visible, making it impossible for us to descend upon any of their families. Corporal Smith, do you know any of the flag raisers? And do you know who ordered it put up there? Did the order come directly from the president for political reasons?"

Cpl. Smith: "All I know is that I heard some colonel put the word out that he wanted 'a flag put up there where every son of a bitch on this island could see it.' Excuse me, ma'am."

Cutie: "We know you've been in the heat of battle so,..."

Cpl. Smith: "Still am, ma'am."

Cutie: "Yes, of course, but it's all over. (Nervous giggle). Except here on Capitol Hill, of course. Corporal Smith, I wonder if you know the gender, race and ethnicity of the group that put the flag up. In other words, did that group 'look like America?' "

Corporal Smith: "Look like America? They are Americans, ma'am. United States Marines."

Cutie: "Any females?"

Cpl. Smith: "No, ma'am."

Cutie: "Any African Americans?"

Cpl. Smith: "I don't know, ma'am. But there is an Indian in Easy Company."

Cutie: "You mean Native American?"

Cpl. Smith: "Whatever, ma'am, I've got to cut out. My outfit is moving on and we've got a lot to do."

Cutie: "And we've got a lot to do here too. Spring training has started and the sun is shining brightly in Florida. But first this word from our sponsors."

at a parody is that no soldiers in Iraq have been treated like this by any reporters. Soldiers in the field have been treated with the utmost respect. Also, Marines tend to be rather professional and do not make a habit of talking like bloodthirsty, murderous morons.
As well, FDR never used words like "cakewalk" or "greeted as liberators" when discussing WWII. He called for sacrifice from all Americans and made sure to communicate the challenges ahead with regularity. All I can say is that this is an insult to the brave men and women in our military and an even greater insult to the people who defended this nation in WWII, and if this is what he thinks they really are as people, he owes them an apology. Reading crap like this convinces me more and more that Republicans must hate America even more than Al Qaeda. I am so proud that America has finally gotten tired of this crap and started throwing these cretins on the junkpile of history.

it's complete imaginary bullshit.

So it's complete imaginary bullshit - we all need to vent, to entertain ourselves.  This fellow has the same right to entertain himself - although if it were me, I'd rather use my hand.

The problem comes when we're led by people who believe that there's no real objective truth.  It's not ordnance that causes the problem, it's reporters talking about ordnance that causes the problem.  The logic is inescapable - if nobody is in the forest to hear the tree fall, they're sure not going to complain about it.  If we just leave the bodies where they fall, then nobody's upset, are they?   Obviously, it's reporters who undermine the USA.

contradict me when you went on to just agree with what I said, so maybe we should just agree to agree that the guy who wrote that was an asshole.

actually, I was hoping to draw Jimbo into some sort of response.

Maybe he's not a complete asshole, just an unthinking feelie fellow, venting some BS.

I think identifying the specific mode of BS is important.  There are pros and cons in most arguments.  

This fellow seems to mean that the reporters are causing the problem, and IMHO that needs serious mockery, at least here.

NCJimbo, that is your error:  reporting a problem does not create the problem - even where the reporter is a brainless twit.

If we don't hear from you, I think we can fairly assume you're defaulting, concede the error of your ways, and next time we hear this shit, we'll just link to this post.

You wrote:
…the guy who wrote that was an asshole.

How classless. The person that wrote that was a former Marine.

You should thank him for serving this country and allowing us our freedom of speech. Especially, today being Veteran’s Day.

I stand behind the article I posted.  I think he was making a point that with our present day news media, it is make it more difficult to win a war. Remember perception is reality. Part of our news media is against the war. I could post an article on how a major network would not allow positive news to be air from Iraq.

BTW… the reporter is a NOT a brainless twit. Another classless comment.

Wish I could respond more, but I am very busy.

Best regards,
Jimmy

I've seen Marines pick their noses on duty.   I've *been* on duty when one Marine (soon to be a brig rat then civilian) robbed another.

Class doesn't include hiding behind a label.  Stupid is as stupid does, ya know?

were perfect. Although that in-the-closet, Republican fetishism of extreme masculinity does explain your response. Marine or no, he has disdain for the Constitution and the American people. Remember Timothy McVeigh was a veteran too.

which is a fictional morality play, with a vague moral.  It's much easier if you just state your point, without the BS, venting, etc.

I always appreciated people who would mindlessly do as I told them without bitching.  It works great in combat.  Not so great in civil life.  But  MY end of the responsibility was (and remains) to make GODDAMNED sure I wasn't wasting their loyalty, or getting them needlessly hurt.

Lots of things make wars harder to win, including eg reluctance to use WMDs.  We tie our hands behind our backs, not because we want to make things more difficult, but because discipline is necessary to preserve our goal.  What is the sense in fighting if we use eg WMDs that destroy the goal?  If we want to rape their women, we can't vaporize them 1st, and I ain't a necrophiliac, either.

No, pereception is not reality.  If a tree falls in the forest, it's down even if you don't hear it, or even know about it.  The idea that perception is reality is straight out of Hollywood, and politics, and snake-charming religion; and it's gotten plenty of people killed.  That doesn't work well if rape is your goal - unless you're a necrophiliac.  

What you are saying here is not that perception is reality; but that we should act that way, accept faith and feelings, because they feel better, and make our life worth living.  That's OK if you want to live drunk or parasitized; but it does not work at all if any of your major goals include responsibility for other humans.  YMMV, you know?

yeah, reporters are often something else.   The ones you described work for all your moms, and tell her the things she wants to hear, ie that everything is OK, which is of course making perception reality, and it's bullshit.  And yes, that one would get in the way, but that is the CGs responsibility, and you know it wouldn't happen.  

What you're really saying is that you resent reporters asking Rumsfeld, Bush & the RNC questions, and these are precisely the people who keep govt honest.  Do you think the RNC has been competent and honest about it the last 6 years?  Because Bush is changing his tune weekly, as we should have expected from a fellow whose memory was so leaky to begin with.

Do you think it'd be better to model our press on the Mexicans, or Chinese, or Soviets?  IMHO, what we're doing is better than any alternatives *I* see, but I'm perfectly open to your suggestions.

Class is making it home with most major body parts, without the need of a bag to hold your sad ass together.   The army isn't an insurer, but it's not a movie script, either.

so reporters bumble in where they don't know shit and get in the way.

Exactly how would that be different from *any* REMF?

Like say somebody that sent you charging into a kill zone without thinking WTF he was doing, because he can't remember WTF he was when he was supposed to muster for drills?  Or had "other priorities" than getting dirty, or figuring out how this here gear actually works?

Trust is fine is you're the PFC.   Trust is NOT fine if you're responsible for the PFC.

no former Marine senator writes so poorly.  

Any NCO would tell you that its not about resting on your laurels, or claiming your rank or ribbons entitle you to shit.  It's about what you're doing RIGHT NOW is the best in the field.  

it's nothing to do with or about perfection or masculinity, it's about willpower and persistence.   It's about human determination.    

People who use it as a political symbol - Republicans who hide behind this without understanding it, and Democrats who fear and detest it without understanding it - are equally ignorant.

I don't see a constitutional issue in limiting press access to military operations.  The constitutional issue comes up in limiting press access to govt generally.

McVeigh was a veteran, but he wasn't a Marine.  OTOH, Ted Williams, Sam Peckinpah & Capt Kangaroo all were.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_famous_U.S._Marines

is so garbled that I have no idea what your point is. I do gather, though, that you have a problem with regular army. That's a shame because their sacrifice is just as great as any Marine.

it's somebody's imagination used to pitch a bitch.  Actually, several vague bitches.

So a major network won't allow positive news from Iraq.  I'm guessing that's a secret, too.   That's why you can't tell us anything about it.

Perception is not reality.  If a man dies, he's dead regardless of whether the fact is reported.
If it's not reported, it's basically impossible for anybody else to learn from his experience.

So, if the reporter is not a brainless twit, why would you describe her that way?

And why are you so concerned about class, as compared to say getting the job done, and as cheaply as possible?

Both of you are claiming the USMC stands for a political symbol.  Jimbo thinks it should be mindlessly revered, and you think it should be mindlessly detested, and that can only be, because neither of you were ever involved long enough to understand it has nothing to do with any political ideal.

It's about trying to teach people to do the best they can right now, under any circumstances, and never give up or falter, because there are other people depending on you; and if you give a shit about anything, that's what it should be.

Obviously, some people learn from that, and some don't.  And different people learn different things from it, but you 2 have a couple of the most perverse interpretations of these values that I've seen.

The reason the USMC has this reputation is because they have managed to build and maintain a culture that pushes people to do their best, and not just do their time; and Americans react well to that because we are more of a hopeful than cynical nation.   We have been trying to do our best as a nation for 200 odd years, and we'd rather talk about how we can keep it up, than why the job is too hard these days.

It's not about sacrifices; sacrifices are in the past.  It's what are we going to make of sacrifices, and whether we're going to do our best to build on the sacrifices that have been laid down.

In my initial response on this thread I said that Marines are "professional" and would not talk the way Jimbo described. You seem to take issue that I said that because someone is a Marine does not make them perfect. If you consider that "mindlessly detesting" them then you have issues that cannot be resolved on an Internet discussion board. You need to stop listening to those voices in your head and just respond to things that I have actually said. Peace.

First of all, do you realize that the actual photo of the flag being raised at Iwo Jima was staged after the battle?  It's not like Marines to get guys wasted in the middle of a pitched battle putting up a stupid flag under fire when they should have been fighting.  It actually sounds like something the Japanese would have done, which is why we beat them.  

Iwo Jima was not Iraq, fantasies notwithstanding.  It was also a "real war" declared by act of Congress, on a power that attacked us.  It wasn't some in-between phony police action, passed by sorta kinda permission to the president.  A real war wouldn't leave it open to the absurdities you cite.

Third, the press wasn't chain-owned then, and so wasn't homogenized. Perhaps we should dust off a few anti-trust laws and do some un-conservative things?  

Otherwise, I suggest that we just close down the press, which never seems to write anything that makes anybody happy, conservatives or liberals.  

The photo of the flag being raised at Iwo Jima was NOT staged. Read the book or see the movie "Flags of Our Fathers."

You wrote: Reading crap like this convinces me more and more that Republicans must hate America even more than Al Qaeda.

It was a Democratic U.S. senator from Georgia and former Marine that wrote that article.

As I recall, he spoke at the Republican Convention endorsing Bush. He is yours now. At least you prove the fact that all Marines are not perfect--in fact at least one former Marine is bugfuck insane.

-- Modified on 11/14/2006 5:54:44 PM

it seems that it was staged in the sense that the local bn cmdr got wind that the SecNav wanted the flag, and he staged the 2nd raising - complete with the excuse of a larger flag - to pre-empt Forrestal.  I've heard that elsewhere as well.

But you're right, it wasn't staged for Rosenthal, and in fact, Rosenthal almost missed the shot.  And it was on the 4th day of a 35 day campaign.  Securing Suribachi denied them observation, but since they were all underground, didn't allow us much in the way of observation advantages.

and tell us who this alleged Senator is.

Because ya know what?   Senators don't write like that.   They have staffs to keep them from sounding like complete idiots, even when they are.   That's where all the English Lit majors go, into making politicians sound like they're not complete fucking idiots.

I saw the article on the Flags of our Fathers web site. Glad you agree with me on the second flag was not stage. Maybe replace would be a better word.

Jimbo, anybody who needs to be told that the USMC doesn't endorse excuses for any sort of shit wasn't there long enough to learn shit.

A movie web site is not reality, Jimbo.  Even reality shows are not reality.  What you copied was not an article; it's somebody playing to his base by imitating a Georgia cracker venting about anchor-girls and the press.  You know that doesn't happen; what happens is that field grade get annoyed by having to answer dumb questions.  The non-rates actually have fun scaring the reporters.

Yes, some things get misrepresented, even by BBC.  But there is far less harm in that, than in letting an ignorant draft-dodging REMF run the show without oversight.

If you hadn't noticed, the strength of the military - that they follow orders without question - is also their weakness.  They don't stand up for themselves against incompetent politicians who would run them all off to be killed for nothing.

The press is their families' voice.

Miller has been a Georgia politician for 20 odd years after what, about 3 years USMC?

My calculations have him owing about 40 years in purgatory, before he can be considered to ascension to anything.

Aren't the Joint Chiefs of Staff suppose to stick up for the boots? Damn Politicans.