The ancients made an interesting distinction between the various “arts”.  The “liberal arts” --- literally, the arts of the free man --- were intended to develop the cognitive skills of people.  They were “free” because they did not involve any manual labor.  By contrast, the “artes serviles” were those skills that required physical effort or manual skills.  A third category of arts was made of the so-called “ars mechanicae”, being those tasks which involved simple non-intellectual acts such as drawing stereotyped figures for paintings or carving stone for statues.

While there is little evidence that universities have always focused on the liberal arts to the exclusion of the other arts, it is also true that the truly outstanding politician in our country’s history were formidably well educated in the “liberal arts” of their day; Thomas Jefferson, John Adams, James Monroe, and many of the so-called founding fathers were very well read in the thinking of the leading intellectuals of their time and of past centuries.  Few of our national ‘leaders” today show any sign of the kind of breadth of knowledge and intellectual preparation that our founders did.

A big part of the problem is the impossible mission assigned to our universities these days.  On the one hand, many social engineers feel that EVERYONE should have a college education these days, preferably in engineering or math or science or technology of some sort.  Furthermore, nobody should ever FAIL because it might injure their self-esteem.  The fact of the matter is that, to meet these two goals means that the curriculum must be reduced to the sort of pablum an earthworm could learn.  Just as you cannot have a tribe of Native Americans in which EVERYBODY is a chief, you cannot have a population in which everybody is in the top 10%.

A second factor making things worse is the fact that the rapid expansion of the college/university system in the last 20 years has left us with an oversupply of such institutions.  This (as any population biologist will tell you) will lead to increased competition and fewer resources (students) to enroll per school.  This has resulted in the unfortunate situation that enforcing much rigor tends to lead to decreased enrollments (read: financial starvation).

A third factor is the increasingly poor preparation exhibited by incoming students.  Schools that once had their largest enrollments in upper-level calculus classes now find the largest enrollments in their remedial math classes.  Having taught a few writing classes myself, I can tell you that all too many students can’t write a coherent sentence --- let alone a coherent paragraph or report.

Fourthly, in many cases faculty members are so busy building their own careers that they have little time or patience to deal with lowly undergrads.  In all too many cases beginning students in critical courses are “taught” by inexperienced, and often inept, teaching assistants.  This, of course, is a consequence of the almost maniacal focus of universities on acquiring research grants and the funds that go with them.  In most cases, the successful researcher has little or no motivation to do all that much to help students.  (I hasten to add that, in my experience, many faculty members DO try to help their students, but quite often they simply don’t have the time or resources to be that effective without compromising their research.  Or without getting in trouble with the administration because they are not being productive enough.)

Some, like BizzaroSuperdude, would totally trash the entire university/college system and try to rebuild it with recruits from industry.  This reminds me of the Spanish Inquisition’s penchant for torturing people and burning them at the stake for “the good of their souls”.  Society being what it is, and people being what they are, the end result of such an upheaval would almost certainly be MUCH worse than what we started with.  Few revolutions have accomplished what the revolutionaries said they wanted.

I think it would make more sense to design special curricula within today’s universities designed to create societal leaders, educating them thoroughly and rigorously in the humanities (including some of the classics, the Constitution, and the other foundation documents of this country and other countries in the world), teaching them in-depth literary analysis, argumentation, logic,  and history (for starters).  These students would then graduate with special certification based on their accomplishments, not only as students, but as individuals working in the real world and in their communities.  Such a program might take 6 or 7 years --- but the benefits to all concerned would be enormous.

I propose this as the beginning point of what I hope will be a meaningful discussion.

of being part of the problem, it has been proven that the neo-cons planned global warming so they can relocate 95% of the surviving American population to the midwest (missouri, nebraska, kansas and iowa).  In 2012, when another Bush will steal another election, the Wal-marts will have been converted to national distribution centers where you will have to be bio-scanned (the chip in your hand) befor picking up food rations and fuel credits.  The New World Order can no longer be stopped.  Every world leader is a freemason, just as george washington and most signers of the declaration of independence. If a leader rises that is not, he is killed (Saddam Hussein, Hitler, Koresh, soon-to-be-Castro) America was not a great experiment, it was the last step for global incarceration by the illuminati.  The pandemic of 2009 will kill 40% of the world's population and in amerika, only the vital transportation workers will be left in the port cities.  The transnational highway from mexico to canada is just more obvious truth and evidence of the national relocation of 95% of the population.  There is no stopping them now and Goerge Bush signed executive order #666 (ironically) to supercede the US constitution and transfer all public and private land to the UN.  Hurricane Katrina was a manufactured storm produced by a secret military atmospherical weapon in canada.  This was a test for fema for relocation and massive body disposal.  There were over 40,000 deaths in New Orleans that were mysteriously "unconfirmed".  Unquestionable proof is all over the internet, most people are just to lazy to find it or to brainwashed to understand it.

 My movie is the truth and I never lie, the election was stolen from me in 2000.  People make fun of me and this board is the only place where I have friends.  If there comes a day when I am convinced I am completely unelectable, I will finally show my true identity.  Go Green!! (burn your car)  Al G.

It simply doesn't make sense to have so much University education available when few students are able to benefit from them.  

We're having students attend Universities now to essentially receive high school educations.  Meanwhile, Universities overcharge them and load them with debt. University education does raise one's income, but not enough to make the debt worth it.    

You talk about competition, but the rising price of higher education does not suggest competition.    It's more suggestive of corruption and gouging: that no matter how high a price they charge, and how shoddy they do their work, they still get paid.  If theirs any standard on their work, besides certification-- which itself is lowered.  No wonder higher education has become a crowded field.  

But basically, the problem is that the Colleges and Universities have stopped taking the ill-prepared, under-educated, and lazy freshmen seriously.  For that, they can't be blamed too much, because it shouldn't be their problem.  

It makes little sense to over-build the universities with primary and secondary education in a shambles.

poor planning and mismanagement.  Want proof?  Examine their mission and compare it with the product of most BS or BA graduate programs.  Many of these "graduates" can neither provide you with a working knowledge of the constitution or the basic workings of their computer.... let alone the macro economics of a "global economy."  The ability to question the assertions provided as "pablum" by our "entertainews" has been lost.  In short, if it is on TV or if read on the internet, it must be true.  Dan Rather aside, how many of us spend the time to question the daily dose of predigested opinionspeak of the day?  Not enough.

That is the primary reason I question the university mindset... simply because they preach acceptance of what they believe rather than an impartial presentation of fact. They fail to teach critical thinking.  Oddly enough, I find that to be more the norm here in this discussion group than in any poli sci class on any university campus.

Another issue that I have with the academically inclined is their complete lack of accountability.  If they "get it wrong" there is no consequence to them.  That is why "the old boys club" continually provides tons of grant money to a select few... and in the meantime college tuitions skyrocket... and why should that be?  

In the analysis below of the increased cost of tuition, notably missing is the % of the operating budget of the universities that is contributed by tuitions.  One figure sets the % of the operating budget contributed by tuition as about 30% or so, and yet tuition takes the largest hit on annual increase.  Why?  If the academic process were geared to selecting the "Best Educators" perhaps this could be justified... however, it is not geared that way, it is geared to selecting those with the most grant dollars (and most number of publications, no matter how trite those pubs are).


So the quote "Some, like BizzaroSuperdude, would totally trash the entire university/college system and try to rebuild it with recruits from industry." is partially true, it is justified.  I should add that this would be unlike the "Spanish Inquisition’s penchant for torturing people and burning them at the stake for “the good of their souls”" rather I would liken it to the reformation.  And yes, that would result in an upheaval, but the end result would certainly  NOT be MUCH worse than what we started with.  

As for the statement "Few revolutions have accomplished what the revolutionaries said they wanted." I would point to the American Revolution - the French Revolution - the forcing of King John to sign the Magna Carta... All providing an upheaval that in time yielded improvements in the lot of the greater number of folk.

Change?  incremental changes in the university system is tried on many university campuses - I've been there and done that!  It only shifts the players around the table - but in the end, it is the same invite list.  

What I proposed is a structured educational system - with public service built into the equation.  That is - there is no free ride, but how you pay for what you get, is structured better than the system we now have.  Sorry, if you really look at the system we have you will come to the following conclusions:
1) it is an old boy's club
2) it is self serving and self promoting
3) it is obscenely overpriced
4) it is not accountable to anyone for the impact of its mistakes.
5) it does a poor job of providing equitable educational opportunities
6) it fails to meet its own standards (where you can find established standards)

If you truly want to move this (US) country into the future as a leader and contributor, you have to fix this issue first.  Once fixed, other issues and problems become less worrisome.


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I certainly agree that "primary and secondary education [is in] shambles".  That, sad to say, is one of the reasons that college degrees remain so valuable: the college grads are somewhat less poorly prepared than the high school graduates.  Hence a surprising number of employers are requiring a college degree, not because a college education is needed, but because a college grad is somewhat more likely to be acceptable than a high school-only grad.  I was dumfounded recently to find out that new exercise therapists are now required to have Ph.D.'s.  Certainly this is a sign of failure in the higher education system.

Another market force operating is the abundance of available foreign students to pay those high tuitions.  I know from my own experience that, often, the foreign graduate students are the backbone of graduate studies departments.  (Sadly, they also typically outperform American grad students.)

These requirements for college degrees are part of what allows colleges and universities to keep their prices up.  No one will notice that the emperor has no cloths if everybody has blindfolds on.

when I was a post-doc in a mythical tower of academic purity... there was a post-doc in the cubical next to me.  He was from India... and quite bright.  He and I would frequently talk about the differences in education... his lament was that in his country you could not leave your setup on the lab bench overnight.  For at night, the monkeys would come and make a terrible mess of your equipment.  I kid you not.

On the more serious side, he confided in me that he was sure, that were he to come to America, because of his work ethic, he would run rings around all the soft American "rich" kids.  When he arrived, he found that American students were just as likely to pull an all nighter or work around the clock to finish a project as was he.

So the difference was not one of tools or equipment, but desire to achieve.  Contrast that in a "fast forward mode" to about 10 or 15 years later when teaching in a relatively prestigious school, the grad students organized and demanded 4 weeks paid vacation and 9-5 hours!!! lol!!!

Something happened.  

Oh, and while on my post doc (circa 1976 or so...) a post doc down the hall - with a PhD. in theoretical physics was on his 2nd or 3rd post doc!  this time in molecular biology.... Why? because he could not secure a post in a university.  I inquired if he had applied for teaching high school!  He responded by showing me a letter of rejection from a high school.  It seems that he was one of about 10 or so applicants for teaching high school physics and math - all with PhD's.  Sadly, he did not get the post.

wrong with education?  yea, there is a lot wrong with education... and yet you question my desire to scratch the system and build anew.... go figure.

Cut cut cut cut cut-----eliminate all minority group studies departments, eliminate all womens studies departments, elimate 90% of all art history departments, eliminate 90% of all public administration/public policy departments, eliminate 90% of all urban planning departments, eliminate all  other off the wall departments like intercultural communication departments, etc. etc.

THINK OF ALL THE MILLIONS OF DOLLARS WE'LL BE SAVING AND I'M TALKING CLOSE TO A BILLION!!!!!!

Then get rid of tenor.  Fire all of the whacko professors that preach crazy commie hate america ideas. And that's gonna result in of 70% of all prof*cksors-- I mean professors getting the axe.  That would be awesome but it will never happen.  

YOu can trust me on that.  I read the Prof*cksors-- I mean the ProFessors by David Horowitz.    HE RIPS THEM GOOODD.

David Horowitz had 3 different books on the the NY times bestseller list.

Just think, all the dumbass students that  go into those dumbass majors would be going to more practical marketable majors like business or english w/a minor in business or something.  Plus, may of them might go to tech school and become skilled techies.

So we have to cut the fat and it is very evident in the USA college and university system.

and by the by, ever meet a provider you actually like?  sheese?

to get rid of all the blacks?

and soprano.

wouldn't be happy w/gettin rid of----   That's not being true to the right wing GOP republican principles

You sound like a VERY unintelligent version of BizzaroSuperdude.  At least HE knows something about what he is talking about.  You keep saying "we should trust you".  Frankly, sir, I wouldn't trust you to take out the garbage in the morning --- I'm afraid that, come noon, I'd find you at the garbage can playing with it.

...but the reason I did was because both you and GOPGeezer seem fixated on demolishing the current structure of academia.  As you well know, you and I have similar views about academia but we envision different ways of dealing with it.  GOPGeezer would turn all universities and colleges into business and/or techie schools.  THAT is INTELLIGENT?  Not to mention his misogynist and misanthropic views about everyone except macho WASP males.  C'mon, man; GOPGeezer is one of the true troglodytes on this board.

In case you haven't read my other recent post, IQ scores don't measure all that much useful about people.  If you REALLY think that it tells the WHOLE story, I'll share it with you.  Suffice it to say my score is well above normal.

Besides, intelligence IS as intelligence ACTS.  On that score, GOPGeezer leaves me totally underwhelmed.

rather how one performs on a specific test.  Again, back to the hippy dippy days where tests were to be abolished....  and the question that I had there was - ok, let's abolish tests - how are we to measure learning progress?  and the need for review of material that the student failed to gain mastery... When I taught I favored open book tests - with deadlines... I also favored oral exams... why?  Job interviews... with few exceptions (federal employment etc.) most job interviews involve a bit of an oral exam.  There just are very few ways to evaluate the "take" of educational material.

Don't get me wrong - industry has its faults as well with respect to accomplishment - and how it is measured and rewarded.... once with a major corp - I worked next to a guy - who for 10+ years had no publications, no patents, and no products on the market.  nice guy (to a point) but seriously not a scientist!  unless of course you consider comparing the flavor of various bourbons a scientific challenge.... anyway - he was promoted and praised.  while others... well, lets just say they were not rewarded.... go figure.  Lots of stories about that dude... perhaps over a beer....

And remember.... Asia Carrera is a member of Mensa... but she too, has fallen on hard times.... to bad that!  Once in a fit of admiration I e-mailed a buisiness proposition to her.... course I had a few drinks in me as well.... wisely she did not respond... but hey, it would have worked!  lol!!!

Troglodytes?   Yea, GOPG... seems not to get demographics... and the fact that they too - constantly change.

...WOW! Were "they" ever wrong, LMAO!

I'm not all that familar with the how-to of getting into "Mensa", but I recall being tapped at a young age by the UofM and the UofM-D for abnormal testing results... In 1976ish some gov organization bought me a TRS-80 computer on some grant, I was a 4th or 5th grader then, lol! (I've still got it, hahaha!)

Well, they've been proven true in the "abnormal department" with the early assessments of my "IQ", but I'm surely no fuckin' "nuclear physicist"... I guess I lacked that "special something" that Jimmy Carter had... BBBWWWWAAAAHHHHAAAAA!!!!  

(And that's ok by my, I'm happy with how I turned out, even though I don't exactly "measure up" to expectations...)   ;>

Were I Carter I could not live with myself.  

TRS-80?!  lol!  in 76 I was teaching and doing research as a young assistant Prof.  Fat, Dumb and Happy thinking that the movie "Paper Chase" was the way academic excellence occurred.... so sad that!  But my big crush was on Mary Tyler Moore... and how that hat was flung in the air...

Ben, I suspect that you would enjoy some of my stories... Injun fightin' (real) hard drinkin (beer mostly) and treks across the country  (twice).... and perhaps the best discovery of all.... some degree of freedom.

partaking in that..do tell where this would have occurred: Pine Ridge, Red Lake, Cass Lake??

Nez Perce... to be precise.  Dude wanted to pick a fight with me one night... Wisely the folks I was with helped me avoid a "confrontation"!  Later that evening, as we left the "saloon" we noted that said tribal member was over to the side under the watchful eye of the local constabulary... seems HE did get into a fight that evening.. just not actually with me.

yea, lots of stuff do happen in life.