.. we are there.  It is costing us lives and $$$ and reputation.  We want to get out (Bush, Kerry, Ralph, ...).  Anybody think we are going to "win" if either man is elected??  Regardless of who is elected, no president will try a preemptive war again in our lifetimes.  They are clearly not politically viable.  

We are in the fucking briar patch:  the question is who is clever enough to get us out with minimal cuts and scrapes.  

My personal opinion is the Mr Bush and the GOP have WAY too much ego invested to to the job that is required.

Harry.