-- Modified on 2/25/2006 6:13:53 PM

-- Modified on 3/5/2006 12:28:05 PM

just a cheap antagonist?

As far as I have to to make the point.
If Arab newspapers can print cartoons showing Jews as Demons, blood-libel Babykillers, and the offspring of monkeys, I can show a modified cartoon of Mohammed their Prophet as a FAT PINK PIG.
Cheap antagonism? To coin a phrase, "Baby, you aint seen NUTHIN yet!"

BTW Crash, why are you using an alias? Afraid to use your login userid for some reason?

The Arabs have set themselves up for what ever they get. If an evangelical proselytizer of Christian fundamentalism is found getting a hummer by a SW his public defaming is wide spread and openly accepted. These fanatical followers to Allah try to say they practice a religion of love, peace and understanding while they print anti Jewish propaganda/likenesses, riot, murder, bomb innocents and make warring threats to other nations for an innocuous cartoon image.  

   Doc’; next time have Allah being “tea-bagged” by a camel  

non-userID posters here withwhich you agree.

Exactly how many hypocritical double standards do you hold anyhow????

""""Cheap antagonism? To coin a phrase, "Baby, you aint seen NUTHIN yet!"""""

So, you've decided to sanction their poison? I guess your outrage was a ruse all along...

and in those situations that do not cross the law, only taste, then I'd suggest it's up to the offended party (and sometimes that includes me) to leave.

Free speech is most important when it's obnoxious.  It's not just about politics, it's about having a community strong and open enough to consider ideas on their merit.   That is precisely where other societies start falling behind.  I am a firm believer that once a society starts artificially restricting ideas, it is only a matter of time until they fall behind and become 3rd worlders.  

How much are Europeans hobbled by the damage of WW2, and communism, and other authoritarian practices?   I rest my case.

Indeed. how many of our own liberties here in the US have been curtailed since the anointing of the Boy Emperor.
Reporters being chided about speaking out against the government.
Students being shut out of classrooms because their teachers speak out against the government.
Elected government officials proclaiming themselves to not be answerable to the people who elected them.
Sounds like we are already on that same slippery slope down the path to 3rd World status.

For the record, some years ago when I was still in college and on the Student Council, we were petitioned to allow an openly anti-Semitic group (They were a neo-Nazi offshoot of the KKK) to hold a "rally" in the student center. Despite my loathing of their message, I voted in favor of allowing them to hold their rally, specifically because of my belief in the sanctity of the First Amendment. Imagine the surprise and consternation on the faces of the group when they found out the only person on the student council who voted in favor of their rally was one of the most militant Jews on campus.

If the Arabs wish to portray Jews as monsters, so be it. I will portray them as animals.
Allah being tea-bagged by a camel. Thats a good one.

if it's about economics, yeah, definitely blame it on the Jews.  I never heard anybody else talk about money unless they were coerced or tools of the Jews.

So, mom, how many copies can we print before you lecture us?

Does it ever occur to you that claiming to be offended could be the last resort of the most wrong?   I KNOW you've never heard anything about sticks or stones, what strikes me as most wrong is supporting the idea that being offended can become an excuse for burning embassies, driving planes into buildings, etc.  

I know, I've never had a period, and can't know what it's like, but it does seem like a good argument that these people should not be telling us what to do...

(and, you, you pointy-headed hairy-assed camel-fucker, wait until I get you outside, you're going to beg for death...)

[[I do believe in respecting others religious beliefs and don't see any merit in cartoons that would depict any religious figure such as Mohammed or Jesus in any offensive fashion as having any real merit in freedom of speech. Allowable? Yes. Tasteless? Yes.]]

that people are entitled to freedom of speech, they just better not exercise it?

Right on, baby.

Perhaps you need a hanky?

-- Modified on 2/26/2006 9:14:51 PM

But I'm having trouble with the translation.
The words read "Tayarut Hamileniyum"
It translates as "Tourist of the millenium $"
surely it must mean something far more nefarious?
I mean after all, it shows a Jew hammering some poor fat schmuck, probably a Jew, onto a cross.
So tell me, Shickelgruber, how exactly am I supposed to take offense at something which makes no sense even to people who can read?
Jeez, and here I thought you'd provide me at least a semblance of a challenge.

the 1st amoebas to crawl out of the muck were irrational.  The rational ones stayed in the muck.  "The reasonable man adapts to his circumstances; the unreasonable man adapts his circumstances to him.  Therefore, all progress depends on unreasonable men." (Shaw)

Is freedom of speech worth bloodshed?  Well, for me it is.  Remember, I'm half human.  

There's a distinction between law and policy.  As a matter of law, I would (and have) fought for the  Bill of Rights.  As a matter of policy, I might not assert it every time.

However, I don't think it's a swell idea to have our policies dictated by the most ignorant and superstitious of the world.  Better that the most abrasive would dictate policy.

BTW, agitator's is possessive; agitators is plural.  You probably meant the plural.

if you're going to deal with the question?

When I was still known as Master Zed, I posted a comment using the alias doctor gonzo. An extraordinarily strong condemnation about "hiding behind an alias" prompted me to come out from behind my "mask", and, eventually, I officially became DoctorGonzo as far as TER was concerned. I accepted the premise of the argument, acknowledged my shortcoming, and I no longer post under an "alias", I do not hide who I am, what I am about, or even where I can be found.
I stand behind my words, and my perspectives. Prove me wrong, present an acceptably logical argument in opposition, and I am man enough to acknowledge error.
From where I sit, it seems to me that if someone wants to be taken seriously, they should have the courtesy to come out from behind their mask.

If you wish to continue to hide behind a "mask" or alias, especially an alias obviously chosen to make an "in your face" incendiary effort at raising my ire, then by all means, its a free country. But frankly, you'd be better off trying to present a cohesive argument, rather than try to get my goat. It aint so, Joe. Aint gonna happen.

Sticks and stones and a terrorist attack couldn't kill me. Your flaccid attempts to insult me by using the name of nazi scum only serves to denigrate yourself.

as any poker player can tell you.

Our (me and the voices in my head) concern is that we would abandon key freedoms and principles to people who were simply being the greater asshole.

We suspect that people who cannot cope with knowing some people have questions about their faith, are going to force a fight sooner or later.  And for our money, it may as well be sooner.

OTOH, we do not owe enemies notice.   We would just as soon bushwhack them in a dark alley, because, you see, we are veterans, and we like coming home to mama.

It may be wisest to let these assholes destroy their own neighborhoods, and forget trying to talk to them - we can resort to PGM diplomacy.   It is in no way wise to avoid thinking unpleasant thoughts, or bringing up unpleasant subjects.

but, OTOH, perhaps you should or could be less sure somebody is trying to insult you [w]

I don't give a flying fuck if you are trying to insult me or not. Anyone using the name of a Nazi is beneath contempt anyway.
I shall not waste any more time with you. I've already dignified you far more than you deserve.

of free expression, even if we don't know what it is.  

How about Hans Schmidt?  I'll be that's a good Nazi name.

works for you.

so, spare us the sanctamony..

It says you're a piece of shit, and you're not even worthy enough to suck my dick!

that's pretty mean.

you ignorant piece of shit. Are you that dumb that you couldn't figure that out?  Is your little, demented mind capable of understanding this now?  Sit on your finger and rotate!!

-- Modified on 2/28/2006 9:11:58 AM

Better pissed off than pissed on, I guess.

Whatever do they put in the Texas water that makes all you folks into such pathetic assholes?

what I think of you so that there is no misunderstanding.  BTW, it's quite obvious you know a lot about pathetic assholes, having been one for a very long time.

and so clever, too.

over and over and over again.   Who knows, maybe you love your own cleverness, or maybe you need to check the spelling...

Just keep it up, buddy.  Keep walking, Captain Voyager.

just keep talking you fucking idiot.

tired of vomiting on yourself every time you look in a mirror!

we want to see how clever you Texan assholes are...

a hell of a lot smarter!  Can't you come up with anything better than "asshole," you dumb fuck!

start a rock collection!

so how long did it take for you to learn that "head/rock collection" schtick?  Couple months?

so I can respond to them and make fun of your unbelieveable stupidity!

I'm stopping this nonsense right now so that these posts don't extend beyond the page and force people to constantly scrawl over and read them.  That is, the few people who are reading mine and (maybe) the one person who is bothering to read yours.  So, you can have the last word, which will assuredly be something incredibly dumb!

-- Modified on 2/28/2006 6:19:15 PM

Who's dumb enough to get excited about somebody's alias?    Only a Texan.

who got excited by an alias!  You are one dumbass motherfucker!!!

Just keep following my orders to run your mouth, shithead.

I see you've been taking spelling lessons from the nazi's. It's spelled "sanctimony", Dummy.

i could say something here but i won't.

i'd like to remain elevated in my conduct above yours and the cartoon whackos.

have a nice day

...for just jumping right in here.  But I was wondering if this sort of off-topic, school-yardish, mean-spirited flame war is typical around here.  Perhaps the involved parties could exercise their freedom to move this "speech" onto a back-channel?  Or am I the only one here who finds this annoying and wants to get back to the topic?

OK, since I'm already sticking my neck out, I have a few thoughts about the cartoon debacle.  

First, just a picky thing, but it bugs me.  In some of the above posts about the cartoons it seems that "Arab" and "Muslim" are being used interchangeably, when of course they are not at all the same thing. One is an ethnic/linguistic group and one is a religion.  There are many millions of non-Arab Muslims out there, most notably in Indonesia (the most populous Muslim country in the world), Iran, Afghanistan and Pakistan.  None of those folks are Arabs.   I mention this because people too often get painted with an overly broad brush, especially in paranoid post-9/11 America where all Arabs are considered terrorist suspects.  

Another thing you hear a lot nowadays is the idea that somehow Arabs or Muslims are inherently more violent, irrational, and fanatical than other people, and that the religion of Islam promotes violence more than do other religions.  I don’t buy it.  There are too many examples throughout history of people from all kinds of ethnic and religious backgrounds committing all kinds of atrocities in the name of their creed.  

Let me be clear about a few things:  I am not an apologist for terrorism, and I abhor fundamentalism/fanaticism of all kinds.  (In fact, I’m not that fond of religion as a social institution in general, given that it is constantly misused by ignorant people to justify all kinds of bad behavior and stupid ideas.)  I am disgusted by the rioting and violence in response to the Danish cartoons, and horrified by the fatwa calling for the death of the cartoonist.  I am a staunch supporter of free speech and I despise censorship.  

But I do think it’s important to try to understand why people do what they do.  IMO, the extreme violence that has characterized political and social unrest in the Middle East for the past 50+ years must be understood in the context of political and economic oppression by their national leaders (aided and abetted by the West) and a history of meddling and exploitation by various world powers and superpowers.  

It’s too easy to dismiss radical Muslims as “whackos” who “hate our freedom” (gag), because then everything is simple and we (the West) can continue to pretend that we're morally superior, and justify our (often disastrous) foreign policies.  People fight and struggle using the resources that are available to them.  For example, Christian fundamentalists in America enjoy political clout and access to material resources, and so they fight mainly through trying to affect national policies through elections, legislation, etc.  To be sure, there are the truly lunatic fringe who bomb abortion clinics or follow the “Rev.” Fred Phelps, but these are a small minority of even the most fundamentalist Christians.  But in the Middle East, so many of the people engaged in the fighting are poor.  So they use stones and homemade bombs.  They are desperate enough and feel they have so little to lose that they are willing to blow themselves up in crowded buses and markets.  

Until we recognize the multiple and complex reasons why things happen as they do, we will continue to blunder our way through history repeating past mistakes and creating needless suffering.

OK, that’s enough long-winded, preachy, know-it-all ranting for one post, especially my first.  I look forward to getting to know folks in the TER community.  (Hopefully after this rant you will still want to get to know me.)

Regards,
Dr. DeFranco