Dig Ricks' comment in the last graph. He's sure learned his lesson, as have who knows how many others?
No matter that he's discussing speculation, and clearly describes it as such, if it's prejudicial to Israel, it's verboten.
What if it went this way? : IDF sources suggest that many reports of Lebanese casualities are exaggerated and ginned up, when not actually false, to allow Hezbollah to portray the Israelis in the most negative light possible and to advantage themselves in the propaganda struggle for world opinion.
Oh, wait, I think that possibility was already broached. But no chastisements and public reprimands for those who gave voice to those interpretations.
Free speech, free press -- ya' just gotta love it! Except when Israel tells you not to.
imagining that any soldier would leave ammo for his enemies to use against him shows that you're all so deep in imagining girlie conspiracies that you can't imagine what soldiers do.
I find it inherently incredible that any soldier would leave ammo knowing it could later be used against him.
your right, ricks is repeating speculation (NOw that's what I call evidence!!)
whereas there is photographic proof Cheezbola is ginning up the death count (kinda gross, dontcha think?)
repeating speculation is only okay of your doing it about bush, got it?
I don't see how your hypothetical fits, but I'd guess the reason the Post editor jumped on Ricks was because he probably realized Ricks made up the part about being told that info by military analysts. Downie knew the military analysts were make believe. If Ricks had said, "Is it possible that.." there would not have been a problem. But to think the Post (or CNN/NYT/etc) does Israel's bidding is laughable.
Excepting from The Sun news article :
On the August 6 episode of CNN's Reliable Sources, Mr. Ricks said that "one of the things that is going on, according to some U.S. military analysts, is that Israel purposely has left pockets of Hezbollah rockets in Lebanon, because as long as they're being rocketed, they can continue to have a sort of moral equivalency in their operations in Lebanon."
When CNN's Howard Kurtz asked if Mr. Ricks was "suggesting that Israel has deliberately allowed Hezbollah to retain some of its firepower, essentially for PR purposes, because having Israeli civilians killed helps them in the public relations war here," Mr. Ricks agreed that he had heard that from "military analysts."
Well, I don't see or read anything there that tells me that Ricks MADE UP the part about being told info re his military sources. Nor do I see how Leonard Downie could have figured that out on the basis of what's presented in the news article -- but I'm SO not going to be surprised if several heavily abusive and borderline threatening communications with AIPAC were somehow involved. But maybe I'm just have unresolved trust issues.
The US based media obviously DOES NOT do the bidding of Israel, much to great and obvious dispair of Israel, but US-based media types do live in abject terror [figuratively speaking] of running afoul or being on the wrong side of, even momentarily, some spin or interpretation demanded by the never-ending changes in the exegencies of Israel's dy-to-day PR needs. [And it's funny you mention that, as I did not. Hmmm].
Geez, guys, the real point I think isn't the factual truth of the charge -- Jack is right on that point as far as he goes -- but the "lesson" to be learned by Ricks' journalistic mugging, inspired in part by that excerable creature Ed Koch [back from the obsurity to which was relegaed and so richly deserves, he's one fellow whose absence does not make my heart grow fonder].
So, Ricks having been chastised for broaching an interpretation deemed undesirable by the Israelis, how many other similar interpretations now WILL NOT be voiced by journalists of something less that a stout-hearted natures? Just asking rhetorically, of course, as there is no real way to answer that. But I suspect the answer is quite a few.
And that's the point.
Bonus inflamatory interpretation -- Israel could not possibly find all the missiles, obviously, but raher than admit to an understanable "failure"
they choose to kill a messager with possibly a garbled message.
That's sure gonna make me trust the Israelis a lot more than I do at present. But that's just me. Maybe it's the meds.
-- Modified on 8/20/2006 7:57:54 AM
setting their families up to get killed so they can go kill other families.
Wait!! I thought the Jews were all cowards. Where does this fit in? Killing their own sons & daughters, so they can kill others? Did the rockets have guidance systems to home only on children? I knew it, the devious little fuckers!!
Any person who is that cold doesn't need a rationalization to kill. This line of thought is inherently incredible, and says more about the people who believe it than the Jews.
Jack, I think DoctorGonzo has hacked into your computer and is posting under your name.
Better check it out.
As much as I hate to reference this fellow, maybe you ought to see Riem's various mentions of Churchill and Coventry during WWII [which he usually invokes, mantra-like, when i mention the USS Liberty]. I DO NOT believe that this is anything like Coventry, but it's food for thought now that you've forced me to consider it.
At the pain of repetative redunancy, the main point I tried to make is the "chilling effect" Ricks' chastisement might have on future expressions of opinion not 1000% favorable to the cause of Israel, not the factual truth of the charge itself re the missiles. In one of the posts I wrote that you are correct as far as you go re the missiles, but let me repeat that that is not the main point of the post.
Yep, I guess Ricks has learned his lesson. The rest of us are still in class it seems.
the accuracy of the information is my point. It seems inherently incredible, for the reasons I pointed out.
Can we talk about the message 1st, not so much the messenger?
You're going to have to be more direct about exactly what you mean in your 3rd para.
One of the things that tickles me to no end is how sensitive people are to other people saying things they don't like. Free press, free speech cuts both ways. If ya can't live with words, then you'll have to use sticks & stones. Having done both, words are much cheaper.
I imagine Ricks cares about himself, at the very least. He must feel like I used to feel back in grammar school when the miserable old hag nuns unfairly and wrongly singled me out for punitive verbal abuse. Any attemptby Ricks to defend himself only gets him in deeper, but silence allows the original chastisement to stand as true when Ricks refrains from defending himself. He's in a lose-lose situation. AND I'M SURE THIS LESSON WAS LOST ON EXACTLY NO ONE.
Re 3rd paragraph : it's been contended that Churchill "allowed" the Luftwaffe to bomb Coventry, despite the fact that the Bletchley Park code guys had broken the relevant German military code[s] and having advance knowledge of German intentions. To evacuate or defend Coventry more heavily than "normal" would alert the Germans that something was seriously amiss.
Likewise, the IDF [and remember, this is "speculation" neither proved nor disproved] "might" allow the Hezzies to hang on to a few missile caches rather than disarm the Hezzies totally, because doing so allows them [the Hezzies] the potential to launch a few scatter-shot,harassing, nuisance raids at Israeli towns, which, of course, generates the greatest sympathy deep in the heart of the world's remaining superpower and the dolts who mislead it so badly.
In each case, civvies are put "at risk" to an extent slighly greater than they would have been otherwise, in pursuit of a larger objective -- in WWII, not tipping off the Germans that some of their codes had ben compromised, in The Endless Middle Eastern War, to keep Israel's lifeline to the deep pockets and vast armory of the US in tip-top shape.
It may be BS on stilts, but it's BS on stilts with some plausibility [spelling?] if only by analogy.
if people have their feelings hurt by words, the solution is obvious - they should get away from people who talk.
Kids know that sticks & stones break your bones, but words can never hurt you. Adults complaining about hurt feelings is pure manipulation in an attempt to get their way by silencing dissent. Of course this tends to increase stupid decisions, which is the reason it's bad for the community as a whole.
Yes, there's a time to shut up and act, but by & large, talking and thinking is one hell of a lot cheaper than acting, and especially if you're any good at thinking.
For Republicans, who failed to pay attention in school and now complain that teachers failed them because they didn't beat them hard enough, I understand the need to learn the hard way. But your problems are YOUR problems, just don't drag the rest of us along, OK?
it's those devious Jews again, hacking away to twist our thoughts!!
Despite the Jews, I'm having a Tourette's moment, saying what I think rather than asking what others think they're saying.
I find it nothing short of incredible to claim that the IDF didn't know the Liberty was a US vessel. The logical explanation was that they wanted to keep the US from hearing something, probably movement in the Golan Heights. Might have been simpler to stick with electronic countermeasures, but they didn't.
There should never have been any doubts that Israel and the USA are separate entities with separate interests. Hell, the same is true of Alabama (or any other state) and the USA, let alone foreign countries. Foreign affairs ain't pretty, and things like this often happen - not to say that we might not have legitimately made the same sort of 'mistake', and riddled the airfields involved. As I have pointed out, the Japs were our firm allies within 10 years of Pearl Harbor and Hiroshima.
But what's a few rockets between friends? That was then, and this is now. That is, we should look at larger objectives in deciding what we're gonna do. Pouting doesn't work too well in matters of state, and if you don't see problems in bedding down with all these various sand-dwellers, it's because you're not very alert.
Yes, I would advocate more bicycles. Firms up girls' asses nicely.
And the solution for immigration problems is for honkie babes to spread more, and make more babies. Bicycles & babies, that's my platform for President. Tight butts and bambinos.
Better check again X-man... last time I checked, I don't always agree with jack.
But he does state his position with clarity and no obfuscation, which makes it easy for me to respect his opinion, agree or not.
Which brings me to you.
Never mind, i'm too busy sharpening my horns and fluffing my tail. I do this while waiting for my Hizbullah baby stew to finish cooking. Did you know Arab baby meat is particularly tasty when served up with Hamas, or is it with hummous. i forget, so many conspiracies to conceal.
AIPAC AIPAC AIPAC RAH!
KILL THEM ARABS SIS BOOM BAH!
THIS I SAY SO AS NOT TO AVOID
XIAOMING LOVERS SHADENFREUDE!
AIPAC AIPAC AIPAC RAH!
KILL THEM ARABS SIS BOOM BAH!
THE WORLDS IN HELL BLAME IT ON WHO?
OH COME ON WE ALL KNOW ITS THE JEW!
AIPAC AIPAC AIPAC RAH!
KILL THEM ARABS SIS BOOM BAH!
EXISTENCE OF JEWS, ARABS WONT ALLOW
THATS CUZ JEWS DONT HAVE NAMES LIKE XIAO
AIPAC AIPAC AIPAC RAH!
KILL THEM ARABS SIS BOOM BAH!
Ahh the meds have kicked in.
No, really, kudos and congrats for this. It really made me chuckle. To think I inspire this effort! Am I your muse? They were all women as I remember, so don't get any funny ideas! I think you need to work on meter, but for something composed I'm guessing on the fly, not a bad effort at all. You really ought to do more of this. I'll have a response soon enough, just need to go in for the scheduled electroshocks and i'll be rarin' to compose.
Hey, that reminds MOI : a few weeks ago I posted a little bit of derivative psuedo-poetry, I called it AIPAC Doggerel. Allow me to repeat myself :
Whatever happens,
We have got.
The world's only superpower in our hip pocket,
And they have not.
You may recognize this as a blatant ripoff of a well-known bit of political doggerel from the Age Of Imperialism. So here's my challenge:
1. name the original author, and get 1 [ONE] Xiaoming-free day on the Board ;
2. reproduce the origianl and get 1 {ONE] Xiaoming-free day on the Board:
3. DO BOTH and get 3 [THREE] Xiaoming-free days on the Board. I am a lenient judge, if you're anywhere close I'll give it to you. Disputes to TMT if he's willing.
This is open to all Board members, and the winner can pick the day[s] s/he wishes me to vacate the Board.
I've got a post i've been holding back for awhile -- just to tease you, it's a perusal of another shelf in the Xiaoming Library. The previous one, as I'm sure you painfully remember, dealt with Israeli self-help/motivational/inspirational books. The next one deals with Israeli travel guides to the Middle East and related areas. It's AT LEAST AS GOOD as the previous one -- and you remember how rip-roaring, side-splitting, knee-slapping, snot running-funny that was.
Doc, you're caught me in a rare moment of contentment, so i want to keep things as light as possible and avoid acrimony and contention for awhile. [But with us, I think, it's inevitable. I'm sure there are some defenselss Pallys you can beat up on, if only rhetorically, for awhile]. A number of favorable things have recently been accomplished by yours truly [remember, this is relative -- you really don't know the shabby and narrowly circumscribed and Hobbesian parameters of my ill-begotten existence]. To wit :
1. represented myself in a competency hearing ;
2. successfully installed DSL on the 1st attempt [and with no assistance from a child either] ;
3. got a hand-written letter of rejection from the fiction editor at The Atlantic [usually I get form letters of sublime indifference];
4. am "povisionally scheduled" as a "standby" contributor to a startup British humor publication sometime between now and the start of 2008 [not a regular contributor, this is a one-shot] [assuming financing occurs, and you know how that goes, this does sound terribly iffy] ;
5. broke down and posted a review [composed seriously under the influence, I felt like I was Mel Gibson w/o the car, the number of typos is ungodly] and it was accepted on the first attempt and posted in appx 5 hours. [I guess they felt sorry for me and figured, "maybe we can get this nutcase to spend less time on the Board and more time hobbying and reviewing if he receives some immediate positive reinforcement. At the very least we might delay the moment when TMT ultimately decides to ban this guy"].
Well, Doc, you've got a challenge, a kinda warning, and a kinda compliment, and I still forgive you for all your misguided and misdirected anger at MOI.
Hey! Here's a new signoff, as long as we're being poetic : Ciao From Xiao !!!
PS. If you really want to read funny [IMHO] read the postabout the Garotas in Brazil from a few days earlier.
I was referring ONLY to the specific inflamatory heading he choose to adopt, and Jack has used a variation of it on several occasions. [Personally, I don't think Jack agrees with much of anything posted by anyone, which makes him one of my favorite contributors to the Board, but he did give me kudos for a post last week -- at least that's how i interpreted it].
Doc, go ahead and do the ritual killing prep work -- by now it's become a very bad joke and even your fans I'm sure tire of it.
[Believe it or not I have a side gig as a comedy writer. If you want to PM me at your leisure we can work out some new material. It's just exercise for me].
But i'm still n kindly chap and I will still forgive you. Especially your occasional, but increasingly frequent, lapses into unoriginal self-parody.
Was this ever sensible or viable? Will it ever be sensible or viable?
I'll add, the failure in this war was not that Israel didn't bomb the Lebanese into the stone age. It was that Israel didn't want to take casualties, at least not at the rate it would have to in order to destroy Hamas. I'm afraid this is an absolutely fatal flaw for Israel. It can't survive where it is with that posture.
Israel has become middle-class, and fat with success. I'm afraid that if things get rough, that middle-class will emigrate, mostly to the US. Then you'll be left with only the most Fundamentalist people to defend it. That will fail.
The IDF doesn't have a lot of resources that it can afford to take casualties. You have a point, that's not a good position in modern war.
I think you overlook their solution. All the Jews in the Ukraine and every other SSR, and anybody who ever dated any of them, goes to Israel.
Now THERE are a LOT of desperate & crazy fuckers. THEY will kill the Arabs. THEN they will immigrate to the USA. Or maybe they will petition for statehood or something, after they've annexed all the oil.
Pretty good plan, hunh? Thought it up all by myself.
Jack,despite what the armchair critics think the IDF's basic tenet has always been the "indirect approach" to minimize casualties by exploiting the opponents's particular weaknesses and its own particular strength.In the '48 war nightime operations combined with surprise proved to be a decisive factor that balanced the numerical disparity. In the '67 war surprise was the decisive element combined with the strategy of unbalancing the air arm of the opponent that exposed his ground forces to the IDF's armor and intact air force. In the '73 war,though initially the IDF took severe losses the reaction to cross the suez and attack the missile defene from behind proved decisive. As to Lebanon, the IDF knew that Hizbollah was gaining strength but were surprised by the extent they encountered-especially the deep communication tunnels and the anti-tank missiles. But,you can bet that the IDF is already at work on "lessons learned" and seeking new solutions as it has always done!It ain't over yet by any means and as I said earlier the next confrontation may be much more violent!
the incidental observation of limited IDF resources is nothing but lead-in to a (sort of) a joke.
Yes, the Israeli general staff is a bunch of very astute motherfuckers. OTOH, politics and privates are very unpredictable, like throwing dice.
While the IDF has kept Israel alive so far, there is really not a lot of room for mistakes. The latest Lebanon invasion seems to have put them in a costly and indecisive clearing operation, rather than the manuever strategy they have excelled at.
It could be, contrary to X's POV, that the USA is their worst enemy, in enlarging the battlefield beyond the possibility of control, and changing the conflict from conventional manuever to a guerrilla war.
Protracted war is often ultimately a political issue, and maybe recruiting Ukrainian (Jews) isn't as much of a joke as it looks.
Whatever happens
Israel has got,
The USA in it's hip pocket,
And the Pallys do not !!!!
Seriously, we could ask whether any country should exist or not, but the problem is we're already here.
Another [better?] question might be to ask what purpose was Zionism intended to serve, what pupose does it serve, and does the State of Israel actually accomplish the purpose of Zionism?
But, ya' known, this subject is touchy as hell.
Militarily, Israel cannot survive a war of attrition with the Pallys/Arabs/Moslems. Until the Lebanon invasion of 1982, Israel's "genius" seemed to be [IMHO] the ability always to outthink their foes, and deliver superior force at critical points at the appropriate moments. Perhaps the nature of their foes has changed, perhaps the nature of the problem has changed, but it seems like they no longer try or no longer are able to do this effectively.
Inflamatory speculation ahead : or maybe, just maybe, they got spoiled clubbing elderly women with rifle butts and shooting Pally kids in the back during the First Intifada. Hey, the pickins' were easy, and it's hard to go back to the warrior ethic and "Purity Of Arms" [right, Doc?] once you've done something like that.