If you haven't watched the news recently,

1)A few Chinese who had illegally entered the country, were reported by the Mexican smuggler as “terrorists” to the authorities.  Apparently there was a financial dispute, not that these folks were terrorists

2)Some nutcase (with a Spanish surname),  in an attempt to commit suicide, derailed Southern California’s Metrolink trains, killing at least 10.

What does the above mean?

First of all, people of all stripes can still illegally enter the country, practically at will; and secondly, if a mental patient can wreak havoc and kill innocents,  it will be just as simple for the terrorists to do that here.  Asking for ID when you get on the train is no help.

Given the extremists in the Middle East who we have declared war against, unlike Hitler or the Soviet Union, have no capacity to take over our land or dominate our culture, why are we spending $30 B/year on Homeland Security, or $100 B/year, for the War in Iraq and Afghanistan, and $400 B/year for the DoD, when the above two events demonstrate these are not effective methods?

These cost about $5,000/year per household

The follow  up question is also why did we start these wars?  Does it server any purpose to see a few of our citizens getting killed EVERY day over there?

I think at some point, it would be helpful to explore the real reasons for these wars.

For example, you discuss "the extremists in the Middle East who we have declared war against...."  Well, here's a news flash: they declared, and committed, acts of war against the United States.

Furthermore, it is a non sequitor to assert that, because they "have no capacity to take over our land or dominate our culture," it is not worth it to fight that war or engage in protective measures.  Perhaps they cannot "take over our land or dominate our culture"; they can, nevertheless, lay waste to it with WMDs, if they get their hands on them, and destroy both our land and our culture.

It also does not follow that our efforts and expense are "not effective methods" simply because of the two events that you complain about.  One can argue legitimately about the effectiveness of those methods, and while we would doubtless disagree, the fact that we are not doing all that we can (for example, like controlling our borders, which might have prevented both of the cited events, if the latter was perpetrated by an illegal), is not a persuasive reason to decline to do them.

Most offensive, though, is the "question" "why did we start these wars?" since it is based upon a false premise.  We didn't "start" anything.  Afghanistan was a response to an attack upon Americans on U.S. soil; Iraq was a preemptive strike based upon a ruthless dictator's failure to obey UN mandates and the ceasefire which ended the 1991 Gulf War, as well as the growing threat (based apparently on faulty intelligence) that his WMD capability could be enlisted in the service of Islamofascism.

Of course, whatever the legitimate arguments which can be made about American strategy, it is highly unlikely that the author of the original post will stumble upon "the real reasons for these wars."

The guy made it up.

Those are great questions and the major reason why I've had reservations about the wars.  

IMHO, there are no easy answers to the terrorist threat.  The difficult list of unattractive choices might include things like:

1. rolling back our gloabl agenda (e.g., foreign aid, exports, culture proliferation) to be inoffensive to others;
2. substantially strengthening our borders/more closely monitoring the movements and actions of our own citizens;
3. making global efforts to kill all the terrorists and their leadership;
4. defusing terrorism by squelching "enablers" (financers, friendly governments) and enfranchising the disenfranchised.

None of these have the magic combination of being attractive and effective.  However, each, in its own way, at the margin, could work.  The alternative - doing nothing - is naive.

Maybe the reason I, in the final analysis, supported the war, was that I do see our "war agenda" as an incremental (if mis-targeted and poorly executed) attempt at #4, which I think is the only strategy with a chance at success.  I don't buy into the whole democracy bullshit, but I do believe that an open society with less secular education and free enterprise might have a chance at reducing the anti-west sentiment that fuels terrorism.

I questioned my choice of voting for Bush because of our problems with execution and Iraq as the target.  But, I voted for Bush essentially because I did believe that Kerry couldn't commit to one of the difficult choices above - and might just pursue the "do nothing" scenario.

So, where do I start?

You wrote:

[For example, you discuss "the extremists in the Middle East who we have declared war against...."  Well, here's a news flash: they declared, and committed, acts of war against the United States.]

I bet you don't even know the nationality of the Sep 11 criminals!
Not a single one was from Iraq or Afghanistan, which we declared war against.  Also, none came from Iran, which we are about to attack,  nor North Korea. But, these are the countries we want to go to war with.

Not Iraq, but Osama Bin Laden, by Sep 11th act, declared war on us. Bin Laden is from Saudi Arabia, and continues to get funding from those sources according to Mossad.

15 of the terrorists were from Saudi Arabia, the rest from Jordan, Egypt, and UAE. These countries are  our "allies", and none, on the list to be attacked.

Now, I taught you enough for tonight ... rather than using subterfuge, thoughtfully answer the questions posted.  

It is a very serious situation.

I love it Quiet American!!!! Your starting to get it...If we really were rampaging through the middle east to protect us, America, we would secure our borders. The fact that we leave our borders wide open, only shows were fighting in the middle east for the benefit of Israel. You should be mad, damn mad, that a few con artists have guided our country into a war that has killed 1400 american service personel, spiraled us into billions of dollars in debt, eroded our freedoms, all for the security of the jewish state of Israel...Not for America...

These clowns created a secret police agency to spy on and detain American citizens without legal council, they can just grab you and no one will ever know...This is meant for people like you, or me, who are questioning the motives behind the Iraq war, and ensuing wars...

First, I note the anti-Semitic codeword "neocon."  And if you knew me at all, you'd know that most peg me as a paleocon.

As for your "bet," most of the 9/11 terrorists were Saudi (with a few Egyptians, if memory serves) who TRAINED IN AFGHANISTAN.  And of course, their nationality was less important than the ideas driving them, as well as the nation harboring and/or supporting them.  In the modern world, nationalities and ancient animosities are usually less important than ideas and capabilities.  Fortunately, some of us learned the lessons of the 20th Century.  You still seem stuck in the Nineteenth, perhaps even the Eighteenth.

As for your "facts," you just provide more targets.  We declared war against neither Afghanistan or Iraq, even though we waged war in those nations.  In fact, we last "declared war" --- an act of Congress, constitutionally --- in late 1941, after Japan attacked us (the German declaration followed a day or two later, after Hitler declared war against us).

Soooo, you've "taught" me nothing, and it is you who needs to go back to school.  Emphasis on precision in the use of language would be something to focus upon.

As for your demand that I "thoughtfully answer the questions posted," I would submit that thoughtful answers will follow from thoughtful questions, and that you should perhaps remain "Quiet" until such time as you can interpose them.

when you see some of the people who agree with it?

good thing.  I'd like to see more of it.

-- Modified on 1/28/2005 3:20:04 PM

Never mind my post was 100% truthful..."delete the whole damn thread,,Funtime has made so much sense, no amount of racist, amti-semite comments can overcome it"!!!

America will awake, when they do, the treasonist israeli-firsters will have to answer...