I see it as the middle-class losing, with the upper-class winning at their expense. And, with both the middle and the upper class consisting of liberals and conservatives. The real question is, how long can this country continue to be number one in the world, at the expensive of having our middle-class continuing to lose to the upper-class, and having it's numbers diminish.
...it's called The Fourth Turning. What is happening now is cyclical. The last time we were in this period, it was right after the Great Depression, which gave us the New Deal. That is what the wealthy have in store for them in the next 25 years. Massive wealth redistribution creating a better society.
The reality is that the wealthy used to have it better off then they do today. When you factor in inflation, Carnegie had something in the magnitude of 300 billion. The Rothschild family had by some estimates what today would be a net worth as high as a trillion. Today, the richest guy in the world (the last I looked it up) was Bill Gates at 50-some billion. Surprise, surprise, the world didn't end.
As to your points, you're plainly wrong. Corporate taxes used to be higher (some 50% during the 50's and 60's), and yet Americans had more disposable income.
Top marginal income taxes are already at a near all time low, and the wealthy are already offshoring their wealth, along with American jobs. If that was the gun they were holding against our heads, then you're a little late Snow, they pulled that trigger some 15 years ago. If they want to leave, then as far as I'm concerned, good riddens to bad rubbish. They can say goodbye to their protection rachet and compete in the real world, where executives are sometimes set on fire.
The reality is that the existence of a middle class has been a very rare thing in all of human history. 99% of all human history has been the wealthy hoarding their power and greed and enslaving everyone else. That was the relationship between King and Serf, between the plantation owner and the slave, between the dictator and his people, and it's the relationship between the worker and the boss.
See, the bitter pill for you to swallow here Snow, is that the human race is slowly, but surely civilizing itself. And that pace is not slowing down, but speeding up. And no nation that is civilized tolerates vast levels of inequality.
Hundreds of years ago, kings and emperiors ruled over everyone. Today, such people are left to gamble on Wall Street in a vain hope of gaining a fraction of the power royalty once had. And in that process, that wealth was transferred from a single individual to an entire class of people. This redistribution of wealth, and indeed of power, created the strongest economy the world had ever seen.
Wealthy people don't like this. We have tools like democracy that prevent them from becoming kings, and so they go elsewhere where there is no democracy, so they can more easily continue their plunder. But the sad fact of the matter is that now democracy has spread far and wide to every continent on earth, and the last hold outs are undergoing a democratic revolution as we speak.
You see, the real bitch here Snow, is that the wealthy, and their commissars like yourself are running out of room to hide. And what all these revolts indicate is that the time is coming real soon to pay the piper.
well thought out...
A few flaws in your stance I would point out you missed...
1) There are more wealthy people today in the United States than ever before in human history. I do attribute this to the fact that our system has matured and given more people the chance to succeed. Instead of the few "super wealthy", we now have more people who are millionaires. This is beacuse many huge monopolies must now compete more for business. The small business owner has come into their own.
2) You make the mistake of trying to use a strictly US economy for your basis of argument. You talk about the economy from back in the Great Depression. Problem is, we are a global economy now. There is no turning back the clock no matter how much many on the left would like to try. The wealthy use to be very limited in their mobility, especially back to the days you speak of, but not anymore. It is in fact not too difficult of a task for them to move assets and jobs elsewhere. Isn't jobs moving overseas one of the main Union complaints? I think that makes my point.
3) Personal income may have been much more available because the personal income taxes on the wealthy were much lower, did you ever consider that? Also in the 50's and 60's, the American market did not have to compete with foreign manufacturers.
4) You say the redistribution of wealth has created the strongest economy in the world, but wasn't our economy founded back in the late 1800s and early 1900s, those periods you descibe as so evil? We reached our peak in the 50s and 60s right after the war, but as Corporate Taxes rose and Personal Income Taxes rose, we have watch out economy decline over the last 50 years. We are now in danger of losing out #1 status as the world's top economy as a direct result of the redistribution of wealth policies you cite. It is no coincidence the push of these policies in the 60s and 70s coincides with what was the beginning of our economic decline.
5) It is not inequality that civilized nations don't tolerate, it is when people are not even given a chance to complete. There was a time when you were born privaledged ot poor, and could never change your status. NOT SO TODAY!! As I pointed out, there are more millionaires today than ever before. We have a system where individuals can change their status through hard work and self-improvment and get two vote in elections every two years. Bottom line is, people who cry about being in the middle class are out of excuses. Time to BUCK UP OR SHUT UP.
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-- Modified on 3/7/2011 5:02:07 AM
"There are more wealthy people today in the United States than ever before in human history."
This is true. But if the Rothschilds would have to settle for what is wealthy today, they'd blow their heads off. This reality is that we have a system that has created a redistribution of wealth from the few to the many.
"Problem is, we are a global economy now. There is no turning back the clock no matter how much many on the left would like to try."
We can't turn back the clock, but we certainly can get rid of free trade.
"The wealthy use to be very limited in their mobility, especially back to the days you speak of, but not anymore."
And soon, it won't matter where they go. They can move jobs wherever they like, but it doesn't matter of they offshore to the moon if we get rid of free trade.
"You say the redistribution of wealth has created the strongest economy in the world, but wasn't our economy founded back in the late 1800s and early 1900s, those periods you descibe as so evil?"
I'd say that modern capitalism was born with the industrial revolution. It's no secret that it was a horrible time for the vast majority of the US populace. It was even worse in Western Europe.
"We reached our peak in the 50s and 60s right after the war, but as Corporate Taxes rose and Personal Income Taxes rose, we have watch out economy decline over the last 50 years."
I'm going to have to show you another one of those graphs, aren't I Snow?
http://i53.tinypic.com/2va13zs.jpg
"We are now in danger of losing out #1 status as the world's top economy as a direct result of the redistribution of wealth policies you cite."
Looky at graphy.
"It is no coincidence the push of these policies in the 60s and 70s coincides with what was the beginning of our economic decline."
The 60's were a fabu time for the USA. We had the highest average GDP rates of any other decade of the 20th century. The 70's were fairly good too, but paying off the Vietnam War, and two oil embargos didn't help anything. The real decline started in the 1980's.
"It is not inequality that civilized nations don't tolerate, it is when people are not even given a chance to complete. There was a time when you were born privaledged ot poor, and could never change your status. NOT SO TODAY!!"
I assume you mean compete. If free market competition created greater equality, then I'm sure it would be embraced. So far, it hasn't been. I would also note that class mobility is the lowest in the United States then in any other industrialized nation on earth.
"We have a system where individuals can change their status through hard work and self-improvment"
I have heard this propaganda my whole life, and I gotta tell ya, I keep wondering why coal miners aren't millionaires. We have a CAPITAList economy, not a LABORist economy. The reality is that in this economy capital is FAR more efficient in creating wealth than labor could ever hope to. The reality is that this line is nothing more than bullshit spewed by the wealthy to create obedient workers. And workers are already figuring this out.
"Bottom line is, people who cry about being in the middle class are out of excuses. Time to BUCK UP OR SHUT UP."
Let's see, Wall Street just lost this country 20% of it's wealth, and you say the middle class are out of excuses. I agree that somebody is out of excuses, but it ain't the middle class. But they are bucking up....seen Madison lately? 
So you are liberal when it comes to US citizens, but when it comes to the rest of world, you would send out a BIG FU??
Finally got a job in China? FU!!!
Finally got a job in Mexico? FU!!!
Finally got a job in a developing European County? FU!!!
Not what I expected from a liberal? So you want to protect the Union workers at the expense of others who are arguably in a wose situation the the US middle class?
BTW, I earlier posts still holds. You will only hurt the middle class. The cost of goods would soar, and wages would not keep up.
Again, the capitalists as you like to call them, can still afford it. The Middle Class is screwed!!
Here is another sad fact I should clue you in on. These things I talk abotu people doing, breaking out of the mold, pursuing further education, bettering themselves. Many are not wired like that. They do not have enough faith in themselves or their own abilities and lack the courage to try to do better.
You can generally cite these people by the Union Shirts they wear...
I defintely get this from reading your op.
See, IF you have so much $, WHY are you so continually defensive about liberal philosophies on a hooker/john discussion board ? Why do you feel so "threatened" ? Shouldn't your abundant bucks make you feel more secure ? Could it be that you're lying about your "wealth" ? Hell, self-aggrandizement rules on the net; every guy on the web is 6' tall & over & is "rich"-------LMAO !
There are some guys here ( GaG & St Croix for instance ) who I DO believe have the big $; however, Snow ( or should I say Baron Munchausen ) I don't believe you for a second.
Lastly, I believe you meant "TO vote"; better get some of that "education" you're advocating for others------
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One thing I have noticed about non-Liberals, whether they are conservatives, libertarians, independents, etc is they tend to see all of this kind of "discussion" for what it is: masturbation. Liberals on the other hand, take it very seriously as if they are somehow making a difference. True, that makes the masturbation more satisfying for the rest of us and therefore more addictive. But it also explains why a person's liberalism tends to wane over time. I think those who grow old with their liberal views, or those that become politicians with these liberal views as pros, know the score but have settled into something that is comfortable and/or profitable, albeit a bit masochistic. Again, more to stoke to for everybody else. So lets not discourage them from the lap dance of politics. Tuck 'em a buck every once in while and cop a feel when you can. Many of them are not going to change, not should they. Love your liberals. They are the bottom feeders in this aquarium of life, and by bottom feeders, I like to think rimjob, instead of snail. But snail works good best when discussing organized labor. So when you see them emote with an icon's smiling open mouth...well, you know. Hope that helps.
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