Politics and Religion

100 percent mathematical/scientific proof: Republicans stole the election.
zinaval 7 Reviews 3735 reads
posted


And big time.  The evidence is in, and there's now no doubt.

In summary:

Here's the overwhelming mathematical fact: 9 states showed a discrepency of 8 percent or more, comparing the exit polls to the tabulated vote results.  These discrepencies all were in favor of Republicans.  

Since modern exit polling methods have been adopted, there has never been one state, in any election, that had a discrepency in exit polling that high.  Never.  It happened in 9 states the election, and all in Bush's favor.

(And with all that, his operatives could still only give him a "51 percent" landslide.)

At 5 p.m. election day, Vegas oddsmakers showed 2-1 odds that Kerry would win, based on exit polls.  Look that up.  

Bush stole the election.  In the wrongest way, he is the US's first Latin American president. For this the deserves a new title: Generalissimo.  

Fits well with his war president campaign, I think.

See the webpage, follow the links, and read the scientific papers.

I am not a conspiracy kinda guy.  Even with politicians I disliked, save Nixon, I presumed basically decent intent and more-or-less fair play. And over time, I mellowed with him.  

The real question is, how do we interpret data, how much do we let our assumptions and feelings drive our conclusions? It's easy to poo-poo your thrust if you're a Bush guy, and easy to get on-board if you dislike him as much as you and I do.  

Slowly my distaste for Bush is becoming more jaded - is the man honest, or is his agenda as surreptitous as so many allege?  I have to keep telling myself that the repetition of opinions is not the same as the truth, even if I want to believe it.  I do think the press is utterly cowered by red-fevor - but at least there is dialogue about this. (of course, in multi-national corp media, this dialogue is akin to peeing upwind)  Thus, the enviornment is ripe for something like your analysis to create even deeper contempt.

What organizations are looking into this?  Should your conclusions be confirmed (I doubt there is any way), then all hell would break loose.

I for one hope you're wrong.  But as they say in the movies, I've got a bad feeling about this.

-- Modified on 5/26/2005 8:04:23 AM

Doctor Gonzo10089 reads

And as thorough and sound as the math and statistics are from the article zinaval refers to, the fact is, the supporters of Bush & the GOP will denigrate it and wither it down till it is accepted by the public as just so many sour grapes by "liberal media and whiney Democrats."

And even if it IS true, the bigger question becomes, "What can we do about it when those to whom we must make our case, are the ones we must make our case about? Or do you really think that little cocksucker in the Oval Office is going to call for a special hearing into the fraudulence of the 2004 Presidential Elections?
I'm getting started early today, this shit is giving me a headache.

Sam Adams and a burger should fix that right up. L8r

Gonz, my boy, I just was in the deep South and drove considerably - listening as is my habit to local talk radio.  Good God, is that some scary stuff being touted at the local level.  I was stunned at the rhetoric, especially at the uniformity of thought and the deep integration of GB with religous sentiment that has no more connection to God than the aliens' anal probe does to whether your favorite lady provides Greek (had to work to get that one out).

I do think, assuming the press can wake its ass up and stap on a pair of balls, that the pendulum is pretty well shifted about as right as it can go, media demagogues or no media demagogues. Of course, the judicial fallout will rain for a long time.  

But one has to respect the power of tying right-wing religion and its emotional power with its people, large corporate agendas with their economic power and a media base that can keep people stirred up with a mix of name-calling, humor and very effective labeling.  

And Gonz, you can't get fucked up enough to lose the critical thinking skills sufficiently to follow that red bouncing ball with a smile on your face.

Hell, that's why I quit!

the lunatic fringe.  I was particularly impressed by one poster's comment that there's no way for Conservatives to discredit this claim.

You mean, besides the actual election results?

You Lefties keep it up.  Your continued marginalization is now not only due to your ideas, but to your arrogant, sanctimonious, and fanciful attitudes.  THAT's the biggest danger of the country falling into GOP one-party rule: people will become embarrassed even to associate with Demoncrats.


As for your strutting your conformity with the macho term "mainstream," it's better to be in the pack than to be in the herd.  

You care to answer any of my posts, now that we've reached the crux of the arguments again, or are you just going to leave them and pretend to be victorious?

gunnarcade2909 reads

"These simulation results do not definitively rule out "uniform" bias, but they suggest that uniform bias alone cannot explain these data."  "We rmain concerned that massive electoral mistabulation may gave occurred in 2004"  The reports own authors would not say that the election was stolen, all they say is that some mistabulation may have occured.  Hardly 100 percent mathematical scientific proof.

The scientists, yes, are cautious with their words.  A scientist setting himself directly against a politician will always lose.  They let the stats speak louder.

What they don't say is, that the odds of coming up with this degree of deviation from exit polls with no cheating, at least as far as Pennsylvania goes, is 1 in 250 million.  Now, take that with similar odds in other states and the fact that they all happened in the same election.  What you have when you do that is on the order of 1 in 10^81 power.  Odds like this are called an impossibility.  This is a rough estimate, but it would still be an impossibility if it's just 1 in 10^30.  Or even 1 in 10^20.  In fact, 1 in 250 million is also called an impossibility.

As for the CNN story, what the hell else can the pollsters say now?   Somehow, in 1988, exit polls began to show a bias for democrats.  Exit polls are used in every country to judge election results and the fairness of elections. There's a reason they say within 3 percent.  The odds of it being above that are infintesimal.  And it happened 9 times.  None of them have had that descrepency, in **any** other country.  Why is this bias phenomenon, using the same techniques, only happening in the US.

Interesting coincidence that they started this bias just when George the First was getting into office.  

So a "democratic bias" is always expressed by exaggerating democratic votes at election time?  I'll just say the press may be one thing, but pollsters and statisticians are not known to be liberal guys.  However, attorney generals, election commissioners and county clerks have been getting obviously more conservative.  Significantly voting  machine  manufacturers are known for their support of conservatives too.  See Laurenalaseattle's post below.  So, is it likely that a democratic conspiracy or confluence that we can't see has infiltrated the pollsters where they will be ineffective, or it is more likely that such a Republican creature that we can see has infiltrated the voting process?        

Also see the link below.  This is the paper that started this.

-- Modified on 5/29/2005 9:26:09 AM

About your recent source-Buzzflash.com

"Buzzflash.com is the first daily Democratic news portal, modeled as a progressive alternative to the Drudge Report."
http://archive.democrats.com/display.cfm?id=153

Personally, I've always felt that Drudge was too far out there, but apparently you think that a Drudge type collection of one-sided media is perfectly acceptable as a primary source of news information.


I live in a Republican county in a swing state.  Six precincts here  somehow had a greater number of votes counted then there were registered voters in the precinct.  Not one, six.  

Let me quote the last paragraph of this paper for those of you who might not want to read for yourself and instead take Zin`s word for it. The real truth is this.........

 "Systematic fraud or mistabulation is a premature conclusion, but the election`s unexplained exit poll discrepancies make it an unavoidable hypothesis, one that is the responsibility of the media, academia, polling agencies, and the public to investigate".

 This is hardly 100%, absolute proof of anything Zin and for you to claim it as such is an out and out misrepresentation of the facts as stated by the publisher of the paper.

 Take the authors advice and go investigate. When you have real proof show it to the world. Until then it`s just what he claims it to be...a hypothesis.

LaurenalaSeattle3800 reads

20 Amazing Facts About Voting in the USA
     Did you know....
     1.80% of all votes in America are counted by only two companies: Diebold and ES&S.
     http://www.onlinejournal.com/evoting/042804Landes/04280 04landes.html http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diebold
     2.There is no federal agency with regulatory authority or oversight of the U.S. voting machine industry. http://www.commondreams.org/views02/0916-04.htm
     http://www.onlinejournal.com/evoting/042804Landes/04280 04landes.html
     3.The vice-president of Diebold and the president of ES&S are brothers. http://www.americanfreepress.net/html/private_company.h...
     http://www.onlinejournal.com/evoting/042804Landes/04280 04landes.html
     4.The chairman and CEO of Diebold is a major Bush campaign organizer and donor who wrote in 2003 that he was "committed to helping Ohio deliver its electoral votes to the president next year."
     http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/07/28/sunday/main63 32436.shtml
     http://www.wishtv.com/Global/story.asp?S=1647886
     5.Republican Senator Chuck Hagel used to be chairman of ES&S. He became Senator based on votes counted by ES&S machines.
     http://www.motherjones.com/commentary/columns/2004/03/0 03_200.html
     http://www.onlinejournal.com/evoting/031004Fitrakis/031 1004fitrakis.html
     6.Republican Senator Chuck Hagel, long-connected with the Bush family, was recently caught lying about his ownership of ES&S by the Senate Ethics Committee.
     http://www.blackboxvoting.com/modules.php?name=News& p;file=article&sid=26
     http://www.blackboxvoting.com/modules.php?name=News& p;file=article&s i d=26 http://www.hillnews.com/news/012903/hagel.aspx http://www.onlisareinsradar.com/archives/000896.php
     7.Senator Chuck Hagel was on a short list of George W. Bush's vice-presidential candidates. http://www.businessweek.com/2000/00_28/b3689130.htm http://theindependent.com/stories/052700/new_hagel27.ht...
     8.ES&S is the largest voting machine manufacturer in the U.S. and counts almost 60% of all U.S. votes. http://www.essvote.com/HTML/about/about.html
     http://www.onlinejournal.com/evoting/042804Landes/04280 04landes.html
     9.Diebold's new touch screen voting machines have no paper trail of any votes. In other words, there is no way to verify that the data coming out of the machine is the same as what was legitimately put in by voters. http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0225-05.htm
     http://www.itworld.com/Tech/2987/041020evotestates/pfin ndex.html
     10.Diebold also makes ATMs, checkout scanners, and ticket machines, all of which log each transaction and can generate a paper trail.
     http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0225-05.htm
     http://www.diebold.com/solutions/default.htm
     11.Diebold is based in Ohio. http://www.diebold.com/aboutus/ataglance/default.htm
     12.Diebold employed 5 convicted felons as senior managers and developers to help write the central compiler computer code that counted
     50% of the votes in 30 states.
     http://www.wired.com/news/evote/0,2645,61640,00.html
     http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2004/10/301469.shtml
     13.Jeff Dean, Diebold's Senior Vice-President and senior programmer on Diebold's central compiler code, was convicted of 23 counts of felony theft in the first degree.
     http://www.chuckherrin.com/HackthevoteFAQ.htm#how
     http://www.blackboxvoting.org/bbv_chapter-8.pdf
     14.Diebold Senior Vice-President Jeff Dean was convicted of planting back doors in his software and using a "high degree of sophistication" to evade detection over a period of 2 years. http://www.chuckherrin.com/HackthevoteFAQ.htm#how
     http://www.blackboxvoting.org/bbv_chapter-8.pdf
     15.None of the international election observers were allowed in the polls in Ohio. http://www.globalexchange.org/update/press/2638.html
     http://www.enquirer.com/editions/2004/10/26/loc_elexoh....
     16.California banned the use of Diebold machines because the security was so bad. Despite Diebold's claims that the audit logs could not be hacked, a chimpanzee was able to do it. (See the movie here blackboxvoting.org/baxter/baxterVPR.mov .) http://wired.com/news/evote/0,2645,63298,00.html http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4874190
     17.30% of all U.S. votes are carried out on unverifiable touch screen voting machines with no paper trail.
     http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/07/28/sunday/main63 32436.shtml
     18.All - not some - but all the voting machine errors detected and reported in Florida went in favor of Bush or Republican candidates. http://www.wired.com/news/evote/0,2645,65757,00.html
     http://www.rise4news.net/extravotes.html
     http://www.ilcaonline.org/modules.php?op=modload&na ame=News&file=article&sid=950
     http://www.ilcaonline.org/modules.php?op=modload&na ame=News&file=article&sid=950 http://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/HL0411/S00227.htm
     19.The governor of the state of Florida, Jeb Bush, is the President's brother.
     http://www.tallahassee.com/mld/tallahassee/news/local/7 7628725.htm
     http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A10544-20 004Oct29.html
     20.Serious voting anomalies in Florida - again always favoring Bush - have been mathematically demonstrated and experts are recommending further investigation.
     http://www.computerworld.com/governmenttopics/governmen nt/policy/story/0,10801,97614,00.html
     http://www.uscountvotes.org /



paper not vapor

I have been on the record as saying I don't care who it is, voting fraud by ANY Party is worse for this country than any liberal the Left can conjure up (save maybe Maxine Waters) but,

your headline is not supported the evidence you supply.

dude.....

""""Bush stole the election.  In the wrongest way, he is the US's first Latin American president. For this the deserves a new title: Generalissimo.""""""

????the US's first Latin American president.??????

I find it REAL hard to believe you actually wrote that. Are you trying out for a diplomat position with the UN????

-- Modified on 5/28/2005 10:16:21 PM


I thought about that sentence a long time.  You took a fragment of it to make your case, and yes, that was the frag meant to shock.  But what I wrote was: "In the wrongest way, he is the US first Latin American president." (A bit ungrammatical, I'll admit, but I only had three hours of sleep the night before.)  

I hope we could agree on history, Billkile: that at least till very recently, Latin America wasn't the best governed place in the world?  It has cleaned up its act a lot from the terrible corruption, inefficency, and tyranny of its governments.  The people of the US, blessed for the longest time with good government, have always looked down on Latin America because of this.  Wholesale stealing of elections was always something we'd read about happening in Guatemala or Bolivia.

Second reason: Jeb Bush's Cuban connection.  He wouldn't be in office if it weren't for them, significantly including their Mafia. And Generalissimo wouldn't be in office if not for Jeb. No, not the Latin Americans taking over our government, things just happened to line up that way retroactively.

Third reason: I alway used to hear remarks from Republicans which said "Bill Clinton is our first African-American president."  I always thought it wasn't only racist, but wrong on several other levels.  I'm just happy to throw it back, minus the racism.  

We may be governed like Argentina in the 1950s, but at least we'll have prayer in schools.  

2sense5571 reads

Beyond the voting 'irregularities' and lack of transparency in vote-counting (can you spell D I E B O L D?) that would make any latinoamerican dictator proud, there are other arguments that support Zinaval's thesis that George W. is our first "Latin-American" president. George W.'s tax and spend policies are driving down the American dollar as surely as that seen with the Argentinian peso a few years ago. The George W. attempted privatization of pensions is very reminscent of an earlier,  disasterous Chilean program.



-- Modified on 5/29/2005 2:15:53 PM

Everything, everything I have heard and can find shows it to be a success. Eight other Latin American countries have emulated it to one degree or another, according to a detailed report I just read, printed in 2001.

-- Modified on 5/29/2005 12:20:42 PM

2sense2358 reads

Buying Into Failure  
By PAUL KRUGMAN (NYT) 773 words
Published: December 17, 2004

As the Bush administration tries to persuade America to convert Social Security into a giant 401(k), we can learn a lot from other countries that have already gone down that road.
Information about other countries' experience with privatization isn't hard to find. For example, the Century Foundation, at www.tcf.org, provides a wide range of links.


Yet, aside from giving the Cato Institute and other organizations promoting Social Security privatization the space to present upbeat tales from Chile, the U.S. news media have provided their readers and viewers with little information about international experience. In particular, the public hasn't been let in on two open secrets:

Privatization dissipates a large fraction of workers' contributions on fees to investment companies.

It leaves many retirees in poverty.

Decades of conservative marketing have convinced Americans that government programs always create bloated bureaucracies, while the private sector is always lean and efficient. But when it comes to retirement security, the opposite is true. More than 99 percent of Social Security's revenues go toward benefits, and less than 1 percent for overhead. In Chile's system, management fees are around 20 times as high. And that's a typical number for privatized systems.

These fees cut sharply into the returns individuals can expect on their accounts. In Britain, which has had a privatized system since the days of Margaret Thatcher, alarm over the large fees charged by some investment companies eventually led government regulators to impose a ''charge cap.'' Even so, fees continue to take a large bite out of British retirement savings.

A reasonable prediction for the real rate of return on personal accounts in the U.S. is 4 percent or less. If we introduce a system with British-level management fees, net returns to workers will be reduced by more than a quarter. Add in deep cuts in guaranteed benefits and a big increase in risk, and we're looking at a ''reform'' that hurts everyone except the investment industry.

2sense2860 reads

Advocates insist that a privatized U.S. system can keep expenses much lower. It's true that costs will be low if investments are restricted to low-overhead index funds -- that is, if government officials, not individuals, make the investment decisions. But if that's how the system works, the suggestions that workers will have control over their own money -- two years ago, Cato renamed its Project on Social Security Privatization by replacing ''privatization'' with ''choice'' -- are false advertising.

And if there are rules restricting workers to low-expense investments, investment industry lobbyists will try to get those rules overturned.

For the record, I don't think giving financial corporations a huge windfall is the main motive for privatization; it's mostly an ideological thing. But that windfall is a major reason Wall Street wants privatization, and everyone else should be very suspicious.

Then there's the issue of poverty among the elderly.

Privatizers who laud the Chilean system never mention that it has yet to deliver on its promise to reduce government spending. More than 20 years after the system was created, the government is still pouring in money. Why? Because, as a Federal Reserve study puts it, the Chilean government must ''provide subsidies for workers failing to accumulate enough capital to provide a minimum pension.'' In other words, privatization would have condemned many retirees to dire poverty, and the government stepped back in to save them.

The same thing is happening in Britain. Its Pensions Commission warns that those who think Mrs. Thatcher's privatization solved the pension problem are living in a ''fool's paradise.'' A lot of additional government spending will be required to avoid the return of widespread poverty among the elderly -- a problem that Britain, like the U.S., thought it had solved.

Britain's experience is directly relevant to the Bush administration's plans. If current hints are an indication, the final plan will probably claim to save money in the future by reducing guaranteed Social Security benefits. These savings will be an illusion: 20 years from now, an American version of Britain's commission will warn that big additional government spending is needed to avert a looming surge in poverty among retirees.

So the Bush administration wants to scrap a retirement system that works, and can be made financially sound for generations to come with modest reforms. Instead, it wants to buy into failure, emulating systems that, when tried elsewhere, have neither saved money nor protected the elderly from poverty.

2sense2190 reads

The above two posts are from Krugman op/ed in the NYTimes, which provides a good case (with links) that the Chilean pension program has real problems.

Here's my "2sense". Traditionally, retirement is thought of consisting of 3 'legs': social security, guaranteed pension and savings. Right now, there is a full-scale assault by corporate America on the traditional pension program, with UAL the latest to declare bankruptcy and hand over its pension program to the government. Savings programs like 401K or 403B are all very well and good, but you (as an investor) are assuming all of the risk, both on the upside and the downside. If when you retire, the stock market should go down steeply, you may never be able to recover.

Social security is the most secure of the three 'legs', most closely akin to the bond portion of your investment portfolio. Not much in the way of upside potential, but the most that should happen is that you'll lose some to inflation. Not most of it, as can happen in stocks (see NASDAQ collapse in 2000). Since the U.S. is already encouraging people to invest in 401K's, why do we need to have them to also pull out money from the 'secure' part of their portfolio to do the same? Makes no sense, unless you're simply handing a gift (in commission fees) to Wall Street.

I don't think I was clear.

My problem was not so much in your using Latin American pols to dis Bush. That's a matter of opinion and I'll leave it to the Latins to be offended if they choose.

My problem is with the flat declaration that you have 100% facts behind your assertion when you have nothing of the sort.

PS, the "first black president" bullshit about clinton was  bullshit his adoring fans foisted upon him so as to secure black votes. Or maybe his girlfriends liked the size of his sausage and that's why Pubs hated him. Dunno, don't care.

Your take on it, in my opinion, is all f****d up.

Snowman392918 reads

that means no Hillary in 2008!!!! Hope we can bring this same method to bear on some senate seats next!!!!

It's great controlling the government ;-)

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