Several days ago, in attacking a post that I did, you stated that I had posted some PDF files of Mr.Kerry's service record. I had not posted the files, another poster did. And, your claims to the contrary, the file ARE official documents. I will post several here as part of this thread.
I did not have time to deal properly with you several days ago due to my being involved in several business transactions that made it impossible for me to spend time here typing long posts. But I have some time on my hands now and a desire to let you know how I feel about your post and your continuing attempts to discredit historical information that no one can control now.
You have questioned Mr.Kerry's medals, as if you were there when the action that led to his awards took place. Information has slowly come out that shows that the staunchest Swift Boat critics of Mr.Kerry are more than likely lying. One poster just started a thread today that has statements by apparently the only other Swiftboat officer to witnessed the actions that led to Mr.Kerry's Silver Star. This man has kept quiet for 35 years about what happened but apparently feel a need to expose himself to attacks that he can set the record straight and stop a lie in it's tracks. I will post the PDF files of the records for Mr.Kerry's Bronze Star and Silver Star. I will also post one another record of a commendation to Mr.Kerry. You can say whatever you want, I simply ask that people reading this check out the contents of the files.
http://news.findlaw.com/hdocs/docs/jkerry/jkbronzestar.pdf
http://news.findlaw.com/hdocs/docs/jkerry/jksilverstar.pdf
http://news.findlaw.com/hdocs/docs/jkerry/natldefservmdl.pdf
I have also posted a link to a news article done by a newspaper that has reviewed all records related to Mr.Kerry's awards carefully.
When backed into a corner about the Swiftboat Vet claims that you and as few others here have been parading forward for the last few weeks, you make the bullshit claim that all officers in Vietnam were guilty of feathering their bed with medals and citations. How completely untrue. You apparently saw something that me and two older brothers never saw. My guess is that you made such an outlandish claim as you saw the ground beginning to melt away under the group of Swiftboat Vets that attempted to question Mr.Kerry's medals - you had to come away from your journey of the last few week with something. Oh, BTW, don't run you ass off to pull information from some extreme site to "refute" my statements or the documents that I have posted. I will only pull information from reliable sources and I insist that you do the same.
Now for my major bone of contention. I have sat reading posts by you attacking people's patriotism. You have used your military service as a shield to validate you during such attacks. Some posters here have fell for that and failed to hold you to account. Look, you have nothing on me, I will not allow you, for one minute, to question my patriotism, I was born with it AND have earned it.
One thing in your post from several days ago caught me by surprise. That was your statement about acquiring your military records as well as those of your dad. Once I did some thinking about it, I could see how you would want the military records of your dad, especially if he did not talk to you much about his past. What I could not figure was why you would want copies of your own. Don't you remember what you did or did not do during your two tours? The question that I posed was why I was surprised by you action, you seem to need some type of validation that others who were in Vietnam do not need. I came of draft age during the last few years of the Vietnam conflict. Three older brothers had proceeded me to the Draft Board. All of us were poor, so we did not have powerful family friends who could get us into some other form of service. Only one of the four brothers ended up getting a draft status that had him stay home. None of us were afraid of what we had to do, my family was and still is very patriotic. When I read your post on getting your military records, I wondered why. But, I was concerned that I had become too biased from dealing with you here so I asked one of my surviving veteran brothers who had done tours in Vietnam whether he wanted to access his military records. There was silence over the phone, but he finally answered with a question. His question was essentially "Why would I need records to remind me of what I have done?". The question turned out to confirm what I suspected he would say, so I left things at that point. My oldest brother was not a camp jockey or cameraboy, he was a paratrooper before going there and a SF operative while there. He also spent time in the Dominican Republic helping to put down an uprising there before going to Vietnam. So I think that his memory is rich and vivid, as should be yours. A second brother who served tours in Vietnam as on a Marine gunnery crew passed away several years ago. But he never talked about his service and I would be surprised if he ever tried to gain access to his military records. I have younger brothers, all turned 18 during peace years and two of three of them chose to become ministers, so their views on war are tempered by their exposure to it.
-- Modified on 8/21/2004 8:01:59 PM
You have proved absolutely nothing.
True, they are actual medal citations. But they are also official documents. Mr.Kerry DID NOT sign those documents or recommended himself for the awards.
I proved everything that I set out to prove, it is you who have proven nothing, but from reading your past posts, the fact that you have proven nothing does not surprise me.
No one, no one is disputing that he received the medals. Let me repeat for you Stilltryin, no one is disputing that he received the medals. The citation is the paperwork/documentation for the medal. Showing the citation proves he got a medal. PERIOD.
I believe the only medals he deserves are the U.S firewatch ribbon, the Vietnam firewatch ribbon and the combat action ribbon. PERIOD.
ALL HIS OTHER MEDALS ARE BOGUS.
You Democrats do all kinds of dirty tricks and then accuse the Republicans. George Soros has been spreading vile lies about Bush for over a year w/his moveon people.
The swiftys are sick of that scumball Kerry. He's unfit and a liar. They acted on their own. 200K from a republican in TX. So what. Soros gave 15 million to moveon. ExMoveon people work for Kerry. I'm not so sure they're ExMoveon. You DNC people are breaking the 527 rules.
The first two pdf files are as Geezer states nothing more than the official notification of medals awarded. The third everyone who served offshore received.
I am quite sure that with your own military knowledge you would agree that the Secretary of the Navy and Admiral Elmo Zumwalt were most likely not present during the actions described.
What would satisfy me, and a shit load of other vets is to see the "Actual After-Action Report" and to see who signed it! Those are the records that Hanoi John will not release, and only he can!
Furthermore, with the number of those supporting Hanoi John from his Swiftboat days staying under FIVE, and those who oppose him and consider him "Unfit for Command" in excess of 250, pardon me if I give the sheer numbers of those who loathe Hanoi John more credibility! As are the majority of Americans. And again I want to remind you that the Kerry/Edwards ticket invited this when Edwards said: "If you want to know what kind of a man John Kerry is, ask those who served with him!" Kind of a stupid fucking mistake for what so many consider a "seasoned lawyer"! Isn't the first lesson in law school that you never ask a question that you don't know how they are going to answer?
As far as receiving copies of my own military records, there were two reasons. First, I was a member of a sniper team, 1st Marine Recon. We were all over the place and although I wasn't told, I believed we had entered Cambodia and Laos several times. I was interested to see if these records would provide info on that or if it would still be classified. At my last check, some timeframes were not included, although records revealed our entry into Cambodia. And second, I have been given the job of keeper of my families genealogy. My aunt who handed it over had military records for 6 of her brothers, but not my Dad. She also had records from 5 of my cousins who served, but not mine.
If I have ever associated anyone's patriotism as directly linked to their military service I apologize - but I really don't believe that I ever have! I do however have no problem calling Hanoi John Kerry a traitorous, opportunistic piece of human filth!
BTW, my hats off to your family for their service. I was wondering though, if you had asked yourselfe or your brothers if anybody cut off heads, killed babies, attached wires to the genitals of prisoners and turned on the power or raised villages in the style of Genghis Khan?
If you did, I'm going to go out on a limb here and say no, and nobody saw it either.
"I am quite sure that with your own military knowledge you would agree that the Secretary of the Navy and Admiral Elmo Zumwalt were most likely not present during the actions described."
No. But people who were and do not have an axe to grind were and the story that they tell, including the only living officer to witness the action that gained Mr.Kerry his Silver Star, tell a different story than the Anti-Kerry Swiftboat are telling.
BTW, the only other officer to witness Mr.Kerry's Silver Star actions was a good friend of Mr.Kerry's up until his death in an ambush. Don't you think that this person would have not been good friends with such an untrustworthy person. Also, you should read Mr.ONeil's account of hgow he got material for his anti-Kerry book in the Sunday edition of the Boston Globe, it is enlightening for anyone who has an open mind - ok, I take that back, maybe you should not read it.
"As far as receiving copies of my own military records, there were two reasons. First, I was a member of a sniper team, 1st Marine Recon. We were all over the place and although I wasn't told, I believed we had entered Cambodia and Laos several times. I was interested to see if these records would provide info on that or if it would still be classified. At my last check, some timeframes were not included, although records revealed our entry into Cambodia."
My oldest brother also "traveled all over the place" while serving in Southeast Asia. Again, he has no desire to gain access to his records, probaly because he knows what he accomplished and had enough sense to know where he was (really helps you get back alive). Same with me sonnybop, my traveloge is burned into my mind.
"And second, I have been given the job of keeper of my families genealogy. My aunt who handed it over had military records for 6 of her brothers, but not my Dad. She also had records from 5 of my cousins who served, but not mine."
Can't you take a hint?
"If I have ever associated anyone's patriotism as directly linked to their military service I apologize - but I really don't believe that I ever have! I do however have no problem calling Hanoi John Kerry a traitorous, opportunistic piece of human filth!"
I will not debate this with you. Time and information will either defeat you in that debate or confirm your gut. Based upon continuing recent disclosures of information, I think that the former will happen, but I am willing to wait and see.
"BTW, my hats off to your family for their service. I was wondering though, if you had asked yourselfe or your brothers if anybody cut off heads, killed babies, attached wires to the genitals of prisoners and turned on the power or raised villages in the style of Genghis Khan?"
I have no experience with such actions. I cannot ask my Marine brother, but the Army paratrooper/SF, when he is willing to talk about his service, does not mention anything like that and probaly would have tried to stop it if he had witnessed it. Please show me a verifiable quote, that I can independently check out, that Mr.Kerry said the exact words that you used.
1. Of those few who support Kerry, most are on the DNC payroll. Of the over 250 who oppose him, over half are democrats! The sheer numbers seem to be lost on you.
2. I'm not your brother. Where we went was not disclosed to us, we were choppered in and out, I followed orders, wasn't privy to why or where. On over 20 missions we were led by officers we didn't know, most likely CIA.
I knew my mission, unfortunately I must have missed those "You are now leaving Vietnam, Welcome to Cambodia" signs you seem to have seen! In addition it would seem obvious that I seem to be quite a bit more inquisitive than you or your brother in areas other than the reality of John Kerry's service.
3. You're "my traveloge is burned into my mind" sounds much like Hanoi John's "Seared - Seared, in my memory" line, but of course that was a lie! I would contend that if you were actually a ground pounder, you most likely didn't know where the fuck you were much of the time either!
I find it hard to believe that you have never heard the countless replays of live tape from Hanoi John's testimony before the Senate in 1971. But here is a direct quote for you...
"They told the stories at times they had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages in fashion reminiscent of Genghis Khan, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the countryside of South Vietnam in addition to the normal ravage of war, and the normal and very particular ravaging which is done by the applied bombing power of this country."
Hanoi John's testimony before the SENATE FOREIGN RELATIONS COMMITTEE, APRIL 22, 1971. Link below.
You have no experience with such action because they were and are a figment of Hanoi John's fucking politically motivated imagination! Most of the assholes who testified at his "Winter Soldier" meeting were found to have never served in Vietnam or were not even veterans! Hanoi John's testimony before the Senate was used to by the NVA to torture POW's and used to turn the American people against those who served with valor there!
If you are a vet, I find in incredulous that you are unaware of this and at the very least angered by it!
Hold on there pardner-
The Viet Nam war was a BAD IDEA! THAT IS A HISTORICAL FACT!
Not that all who served there were bad. Not that that service was not meaningful. Not that we knew what we were doing. But it was a failure of political thinking nonetheless. The fact that the US Military did not lose an engagement and still is seen as the loser is proof enough. POLITICALLY, it was a mistake, and a waste of resources.
We were masters of the tactical- losers of the strategic. For them it was a war ridding themselves of European colonialism, a good thing. We got hoodwinked into propping up a unworthy regime a bad thing. The actual political nature's of the regimes was largely immaterial.
Don't confuse your own honest efforts to kill anybody who threatened your friends and co-combatants with the fact that others did not share your scruples. A lot of US personnel (and Koreans, ROCs ARVNS, and others) DID commit atrocities. The VC/NVA sure did it a lot! Civil wars are usually heinously violent and this one was no different.
And those who pointed out this massive carnage and got the US to bail WERE DOING THE RIGHT THING! It would have been better for all concerned if the war had ended at Dien Bien Phu!
The ONLY good thing to come out of the war was the fact that Russia was impressed by our willingness to behave stupidly and risk so much for a minor card in the game. Perhaps that saved other regimes, more likely not as by the 60s they WERE ALREADY AWARE OF HOW FAR BEHIND THEY WERE...
"I knew my mission, unfortunately I must have missed those "You are now leaving Vietnam, Welcome to Cambodia" signs you seem to have seen! In addition it would seem obvious that I seem to be quite a bit more inquisitive than you or your brother in areas other than the reality of John Kerry's service."
Any elite soldier always can find his way around. The fact that you could not, in my opinion, illustrates how much of a bottom feeder you were. Drop the shit about signs, there were none written on signposts but plenty in the heavens.
The words from the link:
"I would like to talk, representing all those veterans, and say that several months ago in Detroit, we had an investigation at which over 150 honorably discharged and many very highly decorated veterans testified to war crimes committed in Southeast Asia, not isolated incidents but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command....
They told the stories at times they had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages in fashion reminiscent of Genghis Khan, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the countryside of South Vietnam in addition to the normal ravage of war, and the normal and very particular ravaging which is done by the applied bombing power of this country."
The words from your post:
"BTW, my hats off to your family for their service. I was wondering though, if you had asked yourselfe or your brothers if anybody cut off heads, killed babies, attached wires to the genitals of prisoners and turned on the power or raised villages in the style of Genghis Khan?"
I will let people make up their minds as to whether the words from your post were a true representation of what was said.
-- Modified on 8/24/2004 6:51:48 PM
Something you said caught my eye.
"2. I'm not your brother. Where we went was not disclosed to us, we were choppered in and out, I followed orders, wasn't privy to why or where. On over 20 missions we were led by officers we didn't know, most likely CIA."
Tell me, how were your sniper teams configured in terms of numbers per mission? How did your group position shooters (what was the information that determined where a shooter would position himself) relative to the target(s)? The theory behind effective sniping has progressed, so none of your answers on techniques from 30+ years ago will give away information that can be damaging now, but they will allow me to determine whether you are blowing a smokescreen.
-- Modified on 8/25/2004 5:52:33 PM
Your "written on the heavens" line is hysterical! As if you could identify exactly where you were without instrumentation and maps. Any soldier could find himself back with a compass and enough time. But to claim the ability to look at the stars or sun and decipher your exact position in your mind is pure bullshit! And to do it under the canopy of a rain forest makes your comments just so full of shit. Where were you serving, on a air base or office somewhere?
Not only that, but your comment really makes Hanoi John's statement of being in Cambodia even more moronic! He had a sextant and charts and a navigator! But we both know that they weren't moronic, they were just a bold faced, politically motivated lie to make himself appear to have a modicum of authenticity!
Our team was usually 9 and one officer, sometimes two officers, two sharpshooters. We split into two sub teams taking different positions 400 to 800 meters (sometimes farther from the mark. Most of the time only one shot and we withdrew with the other team covering the shooters teams exit if necessary. Our positioning was determined by our exit strategy and geography. I was not a shooter, I humped ammo and radio equipment.
Had a class in college with a former AI officer- asked him a bout the Phoenix program. was it as harsh as portrayed? He said yes- was a little miffed that I knew about it and said he had seen some really amazing things- worse than the rumours. He would not say more.
While most of the really foul actions I have heard about or read were seemingly done by ARVN personnel, there is NO DOUBT that some US personnel were involved. No-one was really suggesting it was US policy to commit war-crimes as it was for Soviets or Nazis in the WWII period, but IT DID OCCURR and was policy for a few commands. Don't let your innate chauvinism, an arguably good thing, cloud your sense of reality. War Crimes did happen, they are usually part and parcel of any civil war, and some US personnel were involved or complicit. It was possible for an officer who traversed as much territory as Kerry did (physically- I don't think he fought the war single handedly) to see more than one episode of US malfeasance.
While it was certainly possibly for your war to have been spent in the simple and honourable pursuit of VC and NVA medula shots, it does not mean that more than a few other guys were raping the occasional peasant or torching houses with their zippos. The black market was huge and multi-levelled, and there were a lot of fiefdoms in that war to be protected at various costs.
There is NO DOUBT that these things happened, as they happen IN ALL WARS. That some US soldiers participated is documented. That Kerry might have felt remorse for a few things he had seen or done is certainly beliveable and that he felt exposing them might be a good thing is clear. He never said that all US soldiers were involved. He did feel that some were, and that that participation would be repugnant to the home front. We all saw it a sign of the moral decay that almost always accompanys war, and of the reflection of the particular problem of this war.
No matter how bad the Communists were, they had succeeded in being seen as the home team fighting our misguided semi-colonial actions. While we really thought we were helping the south fight invasion, the people themselves, the vast majority, felt that we were the interlopers propping up a corrupt regime of Quislings, imposed by the French colonial regime.
We all know that no allied force other than the ARVNs were ever defeated in that war. But politically, it was a total disaster and in retrospect an almost complete waste of resources. That you and the vast majority of your fellow vets served with honour is largely undisputed. That you can not bring yourself to see the larger truth that makes your honest actions a sadly misused effort is a big part of the problems the war caused.
I have read many memoirs of Wermacht soldiers who fought a totally honourable WWII, only to be crushed to learn of the holocaust carried out in their name and rendering their efforts worthless. Jodl himself is said to have been rendered speechless when presented with proof right after the surrender. The nature of war is to spend it working on your own job- but to ignore its larger truths when given the benefit of hindsight? Criminal.
You are finally bringing me around to expecting more of you than emotional rants- but there is a ways to go.
With due respect
Sully
That these are official USN documents that override whatever lies anyone, or any number of people try to tell us. Even John O'neil is stammering and stuttering now. The more these liars talk, the deeper they sink themselves and their boy W.
I like Bribie's statement about the post action reports. WTF is he trying to fool? When Mr.Kerry or whomever turned one in, they no longer controlled that "record", it was and is not their's to release.
Bribite, if you want all of the post actions reports form events that lead to Mr.Kerry's medals, file a freedom of information request for them. But of course you will not do that. Maybe someone else here can, I have no interest in them, information that is coming out is adequate to point to Mr.Kerry's key Swiftboat critics as liars.