All these years, everyone condemned Saddam for his ruthless treatment of political prisoners, rightly so.  However, now, we see that US and the British are not any better!   I found the flowwing article on one of UK based news sites. By the way, you get much better news info from Eurpoean sites than you do from the US based ones.

America's shame

A single image retains the power to shock, even in this multi-media, broadband, 24-hour rolling news age. The picture of an Iraqi prisoner held by US forces in Abu Ghraib prison, forced to stand on a block with electrical wires attached to his body, clothed in a Ku Klux Klan-style hood, is more than just another embarrassment for the Bush administration. This and the other images, of naked Iraqi prisoners being abused and humiliated by their US captors, awakens every dark suspicion of US intentions in Iraq, and is the most effective recruiting sergeant for the forces of resistance inside and outside Iraq. This is not just a colossal blunder by the US - it inaugurates a whole new level of fears and dangers, both in Iraq and among many Muslims throughout the world.

The events inside Abu Ghraib prison opens a shameful episode of US ill-treatment of its prisoners, and has provoked worldwide condemnation. The handful of images - shown on US television on Thursday evening and now reproduced around the globe - also provide graphic evidence in much of the Arab and Muslim world of western sexual decadence and corruption. Since sodomy is often regarded as an extreme humiliation in societies such as Iraq, the pictures and allegations of rape will only confirm and personify the ill-effects of the US invasion and occupation.

To make matters even worse, it appears this is not an isolated incident. The US army reported last month that 17 soldiers, including a brigadier-general, had been removed from duty for mistreating prisoners. One of the soldiers being court-martialled, Ivan Frederick, a reservist who is a prison officer in civilian life, told CBS's 60 Minutes programme that preparation was poor and supervision was weak. Soldiers trained only in administrative duties were ordered to become military police. Private contractors were hired by the Pentagon to undertake interrogation, while subject to no applicable military or civil laws.

Even before the Abu Ghraib photographs were published, a reputable survey this week had found that 71% of Iraqis now regard coalition troops as a force of occupation, and 60% want the US and its allies to withdraw from Iraq immediately. That goodwill deficit will not improve, however comprehensive the actions taken by US commanders to punish the guards of Abu Ghraib.

The US army has put a lethal weapon into the hands of its enemies. It is clutching at the weakest of straws to discount these revolting abuses by comparing them with those of Saddam Hussain's regime. The US and Britain are rightly held up to a higher standard of behaviour, since that is their justification for invading Iraq. The events of Abu Ghraib invoke John Stuart Mill's insight that civilised societies succumb to their previously vanquished opponents only after losing their moral strength. "If this be so, the sooner such a civilisation receives notice to quit the better," Mill warned.

soldiers butt-fucked Iraqi prisoners?

60 Min II first broke the news in the U.S.  Transcripts I think are on line.  There is at least one reference to rape of an under-aged Iraqi prisoner.

Rape and sexual abuse in some cultures are right up there with murder, and demand capital punishment. Consequences here are unpleasant to say the least.

The effect of this on our country will be profound.  Heaven knows that next time American Business Executives and Workers, or soldiers for that matter, when kidnapped, what they will be experiencing.  Geneva Convention? What Geneva Convention?

This will curtail the ability of American businesses to operate overseas in a significant way, directly affecting our GDP. Remembering, our pumped economy right now, is fueled by massive deficit, not real growth.

The only way out is the culprits of this incident [this was not an isolated case apparently] to be vigorously and quickly prosecuted, under wartime military rules.  There is plenty there to nail these people.

Furthermore, it should be incumbent among all of us, Christian, Jewish, Muslim, and other faiths, black, white, right wing, left wing, or centrist, to condemn these acts publicly and privately, show we are indeed a civilized culture.  It is about time.


-- Modified on 5/2/2004 10:47:24 AM

...  however we should be careful about rushing to judgement.  There are indications that some of the photos of Brits doing this are faked.  Photographs are easy to fake -- lets make sure we know what is going on.

Those responsible for the torture should be breaking rocks in Levinworth for the next 20 years...

I agree with Harry and Quiet.  Their actions were despicable, and only slightly more so than those who would paint the entire American military as identical to these miscreants.  Men and women will probably die because of their crimes; sadly, it probably won't be them.

"IF" this actually happened (re. Harry's and British contentions of faked pictures), I would agree some heads should role, but only to the extent of the crime, which is not much (the political fallout notwithstanding).  However, from what I have heard we have 4 to 6 renegade MP types from a National Guard unit who are involved out of the approximately 350,000 soldiers who have served in Iraq since hostilities commenced (.0000171%).  AND they are in the brig being investigated.  I might add that during my frat hazing days in college I suffered (and administered) far worse torture than what I have seen, albeit, voluntarily.

I would also suggest that we not forget the torture at least one of our women soldiers suffered under the hands of the Iraqi Republican Guard where she had her foot shot and shattered by a hand gun after capture (not surprisingly unreported in Al Jazeera).  Or the couple of dozen Innocent Iraqi children killed by a bomber on a school bus last week (not surprisingly underreported in Al Jazeera).  Or the American contractors who were shot, beaten, burned, and hanged publicly a couple of weeks ago (not surprisingly widely reported in Al Jazeera).

Ultimately we are somewhat handcuffed by our own adherence to the Geneva Convention when our enemy pays no heed to such civilities.  I would suggest (and only partly tongue in cheek) that we turn our prisoners over to some of the former "Eastern Block" (for example Bulgarians) coalition members to do our interrogations for us, I'm pretty sure they would get some straight answers, which could most probably save countless lives on both sides!  Do they have 60 Minutes II in Bulgaria?

Quiet American:  I understand you fears for American businessmen abroad, however, the safety of American abroad as a whole has been tenuous at best for several years and has been steadily disintegrating!

An excellent word of caution -- we've all seen Photoshopped photos of providers, right.  In any event, we must be careful to ensure that both our prisoners as well as our soldiers are guaranteed their rights.  If our soldiers have violated any prisoner rights, then there should be he-- to pay, even if war is also he--.

I'm sure that the Saudis, and the Egyptians, and Jordanians, and all of our other supporters in the Arab world will be able to go to their citizenry and say, have no worrys about the Americans, because they reprimanded those abusive guards.  Not only that, they were all sent to bed without desert.  Things should now be all hunky dory between us and the Arab world.  Certainly no more of them will hate us enough to want to blow themselves up in our midst, anymore, now that our mean soldiers have been REPRIMANDED!

In an interview with NBC News, a former Iraqi prisoner at a separate detention center said he was held down by six U.S. soldiers, who he said beat the bottoms of his feet with steel rods. The former prisoner, who spoke only on condition that he not be identified, said that he cheered the ouster of former Iraqi President Saddam Hussein but that after his treatment at the hands of his U.S. captors, he considered the Americans to be as bad as "10 Saddams".


Look, my father was an MP in the Korean War, and I was looking into attending Annapolis, so I actually do very much respect our Military and what they risk protecting our Country. And while I will not blame GW Bush for the actions taken by these bad seeds, it is his fault we are there in the first place. It’s pathetic that Bush's ego is too big to see how wrong things have turned, and the chaos he has unleashed. I know RLTW and a few others are happy that we went there guns a blazing and all, but without knowing what they were getting into the hornets nest I talked about is now been very disturbed and it’s PISSED. I pray for the men and women still there, and that we can somehow come out of this mess with minimal casualties and somehow not be looked at as a laughing stock by the rest of the world, but I fear that is already much too late . . .

You will not find one statement from me indicating that I am "happy" that we went into Iraq. That's absurd. I have said all along that deposing Saddam was an ugly, but necessary task that should have been completed in 1991. I will also restate my belief that Clinton should have followed through on his rhetoric in 1998 and finished the job then. No matter how much you hate George Bush, or how many times you repeat the lie that "Bush lied", the fact is Saddam was a festering boil on the world that would have only become worse over time.

The one glaring irony I find in all of the hand wringing over this issue is the fact that the U.N. oil for food scandal lays open for all to see the reasons that the "Noble Club for Dictators and Despots" refused to do anything about Iraq. When pressed to act on enforcing their own resolutions they chose instead to continue skimming off blood money from the corrupt "aid" program, while the Iraqi people continued to suffer under an oppressive regime. None of the all-caring-nuanced-liberals seem to have any comments on that. Why? Because the truth about France, Germany and Russia's opposition to the war in Iraq might not be helpful for Democrats in the 2004 elections. Those who worship at the altar of "U.N. solutions" for world problems (including terror) might be forced to admit that the object of their continuing affection is a cesspool of anti-American, bribe-taking liars.

RLTW

Or was it that you voluntarily sodomized others?  Or both?
After all, these prisoners WERE raped and sodomized, according to the Army investigative report.

To quote Bribite:  "I might add that during my frat hazing days in college I suffered (and administered) far worse torture than what I have seen, albeit, voluntarily"


-- Modified on 5/5/2004 9:54:46 AM

Comparing what has been reported to Nazi prison camps is so f_____g absurd that it truly demeans those who suffered at the hands of the Nazis!

Furthermore, why would you only hope that the British photos were fake?  It seems to reveal your blame America first underpinning.

It never ceases to amaze me how quickly some people are to condemn OUR soldiers for even the slightest misdeed but have such short memories for atrocities committed against our solders in war time.  

It's a war, stuff happens, people get hurt, maimed and killed.  But what most people don't understand is that the war will not end until the enemy believes that they are defeated.  Just because a prisoner is taken doesn't mean he will spill his guts and give you the information you need to save the lives of our own men/women!  Sometimes you have to coerce it out of them.  

Having been in these situations, excuse me if I think that 100 of them isn't worth the life of one of ours!  Especially in some frat boy prank style "pseudo-torture" that a very few of our guys are now accused of (emphasis on accused)!   If you want a real idea of what real torture is get any copy of the plethora of books written by guys who suffered at the Hanoi Hilton went through, sadly so many of them didn't live through their torture to write their books!

Doesn't anyone else find the underreporting of "war crimes" committed by the terrorists somewhat suspect?

... Can you make a case for torture?  I would like to hear it.

The stuff I have read indicates that it doesn't produce good information.  The actuality of the current situation suggests the US is having a public relations disaster.  I think ti puts our troops in more danger if they are captured.  I can't ever imagine a practical situation where the US doesn't come out behind if things like this are revealed.

You are right in one respect.  some of the "torture" is pretty tame to our eyes.  Our view of things won't matter however in the Middle East.

ZHarry.