A few questions and comments:
1) The homos are very devious.
2) What the hell has Africa ever done for anybody?  Including the blacks!
3)Why do we hear so much about the slaves in America?  There were also slaves in Africa and Europe.  The American slaves just have better PR people.

Gosh.  Those sound pretty ugly when you remove "Israel" amd "Jew" and substitute other groups.  Not so bad when it's just the Jews though.  In fact, worth defending for most of you.  Good luck guys and keep rooting for those suicide bombers.

Truly disgusting.  All of it!

Im going to go out an a limb here and guess that we hear more about the history of slavery in America than Europe or Africa maybe because we live in America.

Mr Neutron, you have convinced me that there is no sincerity [and little thought] in your ramblings about anti-Semitism.

It's just schtick and a backdoor way of arguing the cause of Israel.  

And hey, since Israel is NEVER WRONG [this is sarcasm] WHY NOT argue on the merits?  You CAN"T LOSE because ISRAEL IS NEVER WRONG [sarrcasm continues apace].

BTW, there are people who have said those very things.  You've just accidentally made the case that the Jews aren't singled out.

PS-- Africa is a continent, Israel is a country.  It's absolutely stupid to compare one statement to the other because Africa is not going to cease to exist through human means.  A continent can't "fall" can't be abolished, it's borders cannot change.  

Yet, there are some racists who say it anyway.

I don't call for Israel's destruction.  I fact I would find that extremely unfortunate.  However, I think it should stand alone and succeed or fail.  This means in its relations to the US: trade but no aid.  Also, it shouldn't have the lobby influence it has.  We wouldn't tolerate that from China or Russia.

Almost every country in the free world couldn't "stand alone" during the cold war. South Korea can't "stand alone". Kuwait couldn't "stand alone".

I could go on & on with those kind of examples.  Why should Israel be singled out?

Actually... I'll tell you what... let Israel stand alone to succeed or fail on their own.
But let the rest of the world stay out of it as well. Don't impede Israel as has happened so often in the past. The Arab "victims" bleat, the world cries at their feet like sycophants.
If unleashed to its full potential, yes, I think Israel could permanently change the map of the middle east. and xiaoming will wind up in a rubber room screaming AIPAC BACKPACK 6-PACK RAH!

But I really would rather there was peace.

1) Because, as you said, that was the Cold War, and states were supported as part of a (mostly coherent) strategic world objective.

2) Because those states weren't imposed on subject people as the *last act* of a dying colonial power.

3) Because supporting Israel also entails supporting and aiding unstable Egyptian, Saudi Arabian, Kuwaiti et al governments that are more "moderate" to Israel, who keep oil flowing despite their subjects' anger about it.    

4) That we got involved in Iraq, at least partially, to "change the face of the middle east," meaning: to make it more hospitable to Israel.  

5) Because Kuwait and such also have oil.

6) You sure are right about South Korea. If only we'd stop sitting there and bring North Korea down, or just pull out.

Once again, I could NOT have said this better myself !!!!

And I am relieved to see that i'm not the only person in North America who understands  how points 3 & 4 tie in with US support of Israel.

Keep up the good work, and I can continue -- for a while at least -- in my more mellow ways.

Well, the electroshock treatments were interesting.  Not exactly sure how effective, though.

I see you have, in the last week or so,  negatively referrenced my less than worshipful view of Israel and my even less charitable beliefs re your favorite special interest group, AIPAC, several times.  And with absolutely no provocation on my part. Hey, did I mention I'm under consideration for a new position -- Mel Gibson's driver?  Hence my delay in responding.

I did promise you a few bits of sophmoric rhyme a week or so ago, and I don't want you to think I'm a primate not good to his word, so, allow me :


"AIPAC'S THE ONE !!!"

AIPAC, AIPAC, they're bad guys,
Because they tell so many lies!!!

AIPAC, AIPAC, it's the worst,
Because it puts Israel first!!!

AIPAC, AIPAC, the simple fact,
Is that they support EVERY Israeli attack!!!

AIPAC, AIPAC, spreading libels and slanders,
As it spews Israeli proaganda!!!

AIPAC, AIPAC, so full of hate,
With the Klan, skinheads and Farrakhan they certaintly rate!!

AIPAC, AIPAC, it's the worst,
To inspire this type of  goofball verse!!!

AIPAC, AIPAC, full of lies,
And a HQ for Israeli spies???

AIPAC, AIPAC, in emergency session,
Hammering out the spin for today's Israeli aggression!!!

AIPAC, AIPAC, day and night,
Putting the US national interest to headlong flight!!!

AIPAC, AIPAC, vile political whores,
Dragging the US into Israel's endless wars!!!

AIPAC, AIPAC, it never  dallys,
In it's mission to help Israel oppress the Pallys!!!

AIPAC, AIPAC, it's work is never done,
Selling us Israel from sun to sun!!!

AIPAC, AIPAC, it's message is always the same,
No matter what the problem, the Arabs are to blame!!!

AIPAC, AIPAC, screwing the US,
In all the world,  at that job they're the best!!!

AIPAC, AIPAC, from sun to sun,
Helps Israel to deprive the Pallys of all life's fun!!!

AIPAC, AIPAC, full of gloom,
For without the US, Israel faces certain doom!!!


Doc, I'm working on one as well about the Xtian Fundies, with special refeerence to their political suppport of Israeli Zionism.  Please be patient, as it's not good form to rush the creative process. And it's also more difficult to compose in terms of meter. But let me give you a little taste :

Fundies tell us God wants us to support Zion,
But I think  that they're straight out lyin'!!!

With Abe Foxman Xtian Fundies will not fight,
Lest one of them be called an anti-Semite!!!

While waiting impatiently for the End Time,
Xtian Fundies justify every possible Israeli war crime!!!

Fundies dream of converting Israeli Jews,
But no effing way that's ever gonna happen, sorry for the bad news!!!

More to come, eventually, but I find it in conflict with my new-found slightly more mellow ways, so, please be patient.  And as other posters have emerged to share my skepticism of Israel and all it's deeds and words, I feel I deserve to relax a little.  Some of my work has been done.

Ciao From Xiao !!!

And I still forgive you unkind words  -- anticipatorially, just like Israel's concept of self-defense !!!  No way YOU can disagree with that !!! ???

because "permanently changing the map of the middle east" means dealing with the populations of Baghdad, Cairo, etc etc; and I rather doubt that anybody is willing to carry out significant permanent changes there.  I think that most Jews would agree with me, that those sort of changes are a little too reminiscent of the reasons they are there in the 1st place.

"Impeding" Israel isn't a terribly convincing argument.  Fighting a guerrilla war with an enemy entrenched on home soil is entirely different from manuever war with conventional formations.

It's a little late for Americans to be saying, "knock yourselves out" given that our entire fucking Army is tied up a few miles away.

But what we need to figure out is what we want, and whether we have the will and ability to do it.   Military power cannot easily be translated into political power.   Military power can destroy, but it can't always build; and our 1st problem is the vacuum of power and disorder in Iraq; we are sitting there bleeding every day, with no fucking plan or ability to deal with it.   At this point, cutting our losses and getting the fuck out would at least resolve the situation.  If the Iranians came in, we could go back and kick their ass with fewer casualties than we've suffered since Dubya announced "mission accomplished".

Thank you, George Bush, neo-cons, and Republicans.   Who else could fuck up a wet dream so convincingly?

Yeah, but the converse isn't true.

Except in Israel itself, nowhere on earth will you hear more about Te Holocaust than in the US. And it didn't even happen here.

I know, I know, must be all the excess historians we have in our country.

Let me comment on your 6 response items.

#1- I agree. But part of the "strategic world balance" was Israel,Turkey, Jordan as a bulwark against southward soviet expansion.

#2- The dying colonial powers were france and Britain. So, do you mean that Britain imposed Israel on the subjects living there? Any cursory familiarity with 20th century history would lead to the opposite conclusion that Britain opposed the creation of Israel and in fact intended to return to Palestine thru the backdoor of Jordan after the jews were driven to the sea by the Arab Legion commanded by Sir Glubb Pasha.

#3- I'd slightly modify it to read: Because supporting unstable Saudi Arabian, Kuwaiti,Egyptian et al governments also entails supporting Israel.(Egypt's moderation was acquired thru battlefield experiece;Saudis, Kuwaitis see a greater danger from radical arab states than from Israel!).

#4- We got involved in Iraq primarily to safeguard oil supplies from the "moderate" arab states."To change the face of the middle east" is an argument brought up AFTER the outcries when WMD's proved to be a fiction.Sure, it would've helped Israel but it's just a supposition that Dubya went to war to help Israel!

#5- I agree.You're confirming my #4 above.

now go back to the bombed out portions of Lebanon and continue your scavenging and looting.

BTW, which couplet did you likr best?

I'm still not sure why, if you hate me so much, you continue to read my posts?

-- Modified on 9/4/2006 9:56:48 AM

Check out the insane rambling of your NeoConMen allies.

Check out the AIPAC website during this period?  They were absolutely drooling, along with probably emitting other bodily secretions, over the prospect of an overthrown Saddam and how that would play out positively for your Most Reliable Allies In The Middle East.

Remember quotes like "the road to peace in the Middle East runs through Baghdad?"  No, of course not  - wouldn't do your miserably lame and false line of argument any good if you did.

Why are we at war in Itaq?  Look in the mirror, AIPAC man, IDF veteran.

War in Iraq to benefit israel just a "supposition" after the search for WMDs came a-cropper?  God, come on, spare at last. I suppose you are just reality-deficient and truth-adverse.

AIPAC -- when treason is just too far to go?

-- Modified on 9/5/2006 5:23:34 PM

Q. What's the difference between AIPAC and The German-American Bund?

A. Appx. 66 years !!!   HAR! HAR!! HAR!!!

Glad to see you've become "brave" enough to respond directly.  Those scences of Israeli-caused carnage in Lebanon must have really bucked-up your morale!!??  Is that political viagra for you?

1) The Cold War is over.  You did forget Iran as that bullwark that failed-- but it didn't go pro-Soviet.  

2) We're reading different history books, then.  The history written by the Israelis and accepted by the US is that Israel fought for that land.  It's true, the Zionist did have their militant terrorist wing.  (Menachim Begin for one: Israel won't negotiate with terrorists, but they'll elect them.)  Actually, as Jews poured into Palestine, there were several factions vying for control of that territory.  The British decided to turn it over to the Jews.  The reasoning behind it was judging that Britain could then win favor from the Jews internationally.  That isn't Nazi propaganda, that's actually the way British reasoned it: despite the acts of terrorism aimed against it by Begin and the rest.  So, they supported the Jews in setting up the Israeli government,  to the anger of the other factions wanting control of that land, who were all Arab.  When the Arabs      then opposed that government, that's when the first fighting between them started; that's when the Arabs began to be expelled from the land.  That was what the Israelis report as their war to gain its independence.  That's what the movie "Exodus" was really about.  

Britain was the chief ally and protector of Israel, until 1954, when Nassar closed the Suez Canal.  Then there was a change in power, and the US became the main protector of Israel.

3) Egypt's moderation was bought by US aid.  Currently, it's being bought by US military aid, which is the only way that unpopular government stays firmly in power. It's true that military defeats might have convinced them of the futility of continuing the fight.  

4) The Neocons who I believe actually run our government's foreign policy wanted to change the face of the middle-east.  Everything else said was to try to sell the program.  It's now becoming apparent that that the administration had  invading Iraq as its policy before 9/11.  The Neocons we're going to have Bush sell it to the people by any means necessary.  Look up: Project for the New American Century on Google.

you'd have more credibility if you weren't so (1) conclusory, and (2) personal.

That one fellow in partic I cannot abide, for reasons previously beaten to death.

I think you'll agree that usually i'm the soul of moderation, normally.

"Israel won't negotate with terrorists, but they'll elect them."  One of the best sentences I've seen on this Board in the year or so since I started loitering here.

Also elected Yitzhak Shamir, who was possibly more egregious than Begin.

And of course who could forget Ari? [But I'd understand why partisans of Israel might want to]. [But it might be more correct to describe him as a war criminal rather than a terrorist.  You know, Slobo Milosevic with waaayy better PR].

Also, Riem tries to build a case of the US, Israel, Turkey and Jordan being allied to counter Soviet expanson into the Middle East.  I musta missed that.  Wonder if Turkey and Jordan would ever publicly admit being in an alliance with Israel?  The idea makes my eyes roll in disbelief.  [He's gotten confused I think with the old idea of the "Northern Tier" -- Iran, Iraq, Turkey and possiblty Pakisan, which was the basis for CENTO, also called the Baghdad Pact.  I've pointed this out to him before, to no avail].

and some new and improved spin.

In a few simple paragraphs Zinaval shows how badly you need all the help you can get.

Happy web-surfing Riem !!!

But you'll always have memories of the USS Liberty !!!

Aw!  A prophet without honor.

Some of my claims may be strident, and i've sometimes been known to beat a dead horse, and post on the edge of irony  [borrowed from Mister Spock] but i'm thinking, in terms of how I deal with fellow posters, I'm quite the pussycat, usually.

I'm far, far less angry and insulting than my main nemesis, DoctorGonzo, whose venon and vitriol I have withstood, methinks, with comendable forebeaerance and Job-like patience.  In the last month alone he has told me to rot in hell and that he hopes i suffer a slow and painful death [and that's just what i remember off the top of my head].  I forgive him, since I suspect strongly that a lot of it is just for gratuitous effect.  [But I might be wrong].  It's in that limited sense that i think of myself as the soul of moderation.