I know I do.

I was watching CNBC waiting for market to open and doing my premarket research for the day as I was a fulltime trader at the time. I saw the first plane hit and thought OMFG, had no idea that it was a terrorist attack and then a few minutes later saw the second jet impact into the WTC, I couldn't believe my eyes.

I spent the next several hours glued to the TV until I couldn't watch another replay of the planes impact and without feeling ill.

I also remember trying unsuccessfully to reach friends and business associates in NYC to see if any of them were in the towers that day. Fortunately for me the only people I knew that worked, or had family members that worked in the towers were not there that day. One family I knew were particularly lucky that day. Both sons worked in the WTC, one was sick that day and the other was across the street when it happened, both escaped that day with their lives, unfortunately over three thousand other New Yorkers and fellow Americans were not so lucky.

After the skies were finally cleared to fly again, I did the only thing a civilian could really do in response to such a heinous act. I wrote a sizeable check to the Red Cross, and boarded the first airplane I could find flying out of Hartsfield. I thought then as I do now that hiding under my bed cowering at the thought of being blown out of the sky would be playing right into the terrorists hands. I didn't really care where I went, I just wanted to prove that the terrorists couldn't cripple this country with fear.

Anyone else remember how they spent 9-11?

but I won't bore anyone with all the mundane details.  Let's just suffice to say that I was driving through a small town and heard the reports from the young rock-jock who was describing what he was seeing on television as it was happening. The kid was stunned and was almost crying himself on the air as he watched the second plane hit the second tower and then watched the collapse of the first tower to fall.

I'll never forget that day.  I don't know how any American could ever forget it.

It was totally surreal to see the videotape of the first plane crashing into the tower, it was truly horrifying to see the second one actually crash. Then the was the Pentagon attack and the 4th plane. I was wondering where they would attack next, and how long the attack would continue.

-- Modified on 9/11/2010 2:21:54 PM

A good friend of mine ( who has subsequently died ) called me up & told me of the horrible events that were transpiring. Turned on cable & was truly stunned at what was occurring. Unreal, unbelievable, adjectives just failed me at the time, as I watched slack jawed at the God awful tragedies that were occurring at the WTC & the Pentagon. Whole thing played like a bad "B" disaster flick of the 70's. One of the blackest days in U.S. history.

Funny thing------3 darkest days in recent history happened over 70 year period : 12/7/41 ( sneak attack on Pearl Harbor ); 11/22/63 ( JFK assassination ) & 9/11/01 .

One of the few times that year that I had the luxury of staying local. I was in the midst of a rather large project. No tv's around. A colleague called me to mention what was taking place on the news. Listened to the radio the rest of the day with almost absolute silence from everyone. No work got done. Did I give a shit? NOPE!! I didn't see the reality of what was happening till I went home that evening. I didn't have quite the concerns that you did. Where I live is very insignificant strategy wise. Found out later that week that a very distant relative had perished in NY. I called all of my friends associated with Pentagon activities to make sure they were ALL safe. YEP on that one.

Became very attached to a soon after released country song: Alan Jackson's "Where were you when the world stopped turning". Still one of my all-time favorite tunes

but to tell the truth, that fact never entered my consciousness until someone reminded me of it.

I ended up the day pounding golf balls just to get away from any TV's broadcasting those images constantly throughout the day.

On a lighter note, I had severe gambling withdrawls for the next several  days. Not only were all financial markets closed, but there were no baseball, no football, absoulutely nothing to gamble on for about four days.

I also remember how quiet Hartsfield airport was for several months afterwards, the terrorists did succeed in scary countless Americans from traveling. Actually the reduction in air travelers was probably a good thing in light of all the new security measures enacted as a result of 9-11. I doubt that even half the previous traffic would have be able to get cleared in the first few weeks after 9-11.

From that point forward it was quite a task to refrain from driving to NY the next day. I eventually found another way to become of service.

On triboro bridge and was on fdr drive. I had opie and anthony on, I saw so many fire engines driving so fast like a nuclear bomb hit ny.i arrived at my place in business and had internet on and was worried if I would get bombed, I work close to the un. There was fear if un would be bombed, it was scary, I have family who works in wall street, thank god they didnt work at towers, they were ok, it was scary day no one knew where president was on news,speech he gave was by a leader, I felt safe as bush as our president, and was proud to be an american, muslims have
To remember true they didnt attack,us,but that attack on sept 11 will always scar their religion,even if it was al
Queda, americans will always view al queda will muslims

I was on the patio having coffee prior to going to work. I was watching CNBC market watch thru the kitchen window. I saw both planes. My office is about 1/2 mile away and when I arrived everyone was crying. At about 9:30 or so upper managemet. We decided anyone who wanted to go home could. It's was about 450 employees. I was required to stay because I still had 3 people elected to stay at work. I went out and bought two bottles of Jack Daniels and we stole the TV out of the board room and watched the news and drank. At the end of the day I expensed everyone's cab ride home. The CEO personally ok'd my expence report that month.

A friend called me and woke me up. I thought she was exaggerating, so I didn't pay that much attention.

I got up and drove to the cafe I go to every morning and the radio announcer was saying one of the towers collapsed.  I used to live across the street and my first thought was how irresponsible he was to exaggerate it as the building collapsing.  

I had coffee, sitting alone. On the way home the same ass hole announcer was saying the other tower collapsed, and I thought what a jerk.

I turned on the TV, and they played the tape.  The announcer had been right.

I immediately knew it had to be a hijacking, because it was impossible that two pilots could accidently be that far off target and hit the same location.  I also knew that the pilots had to be dead before because if they had been alive and in control, with certain death, they would have avoided the tower.  (If they were going to die anyway, there was no way they could be forced to fly into the towers.)

I also knew immediately there was only one group in the world that did that type of thing on that scale.

That had a greater impact on my thinking and life than any other event that I can think of off-hand.

scattered all over the world who couldn't get home for days. One guy who worked for me was in Ft. Lauderdale and rented a Uhaul truck, big one. It's all he could get.  It took him 3 days to drive home to Phoenix. We had all kinds of meetings on what could be put on expense reports and what wasn't allowed. Finally I just ok'd everything for my department.

Then in Oct. someone on the Board found out what I did. They had meetings and I was called upstairs. They had a lot of the expence reports and was asking direct questions. "Two bottles of Jack Daniels and 4 orders of Hot Wings?" I was pretty mad by that time and said hell yes, we were all to drunk to go out to lunch.  Was prepared to accept the fact that I would always be a Senior Director if I still had a job.

Six months late I was made a V.P.

I remember practically every minute of that day. I was at our monthly all staff meeting, and we'd taken a break. Our facitility coordinator came out to the smoking area and told us a plane had flown into the WTC. My mind immediately conjured a small plane and probably some unfortunate malfunction. Maybe the plane experienced a mechanical failure. Maybe the pilot had a heart attack. Either way, tragic, but not very important.

We went back into our meeting, and an hour or so later took another break. This time Cynthia came out and told us that it had been two planes hitting the WTC, and that the pentagon had been hit, and all flights were grounded.

I remember feeling as someone had just grabbed the patch of earth I was standing on, turned it upsdide down with me standing on it, and gave it a mighty shake.

I went back to work, and was just useless all day. I was glued to the TV instead. I remember feeling frantic, wanting to be there, wanting to help somehow. It ocurred to me to call the Red Cross so I called them and made a donation. That didn't feel like enough though, so on my lunch break I drove to the blood bank and donated blood. That was the most surreal drive of my life. Every gas station I came within a block of had cars lined out into the street. I remember driving around and looking around me as if I had suddenly entered some alien world. Nothing looked right.

I've donated blood many times. The first time right after I turned 18. It usually takes no more than 30 minutes start to finish. Apparently I was not the only one who thought of donating blood as a way of just doing SOMETHING to help. There were people sitting on the sidewalk outside the blood bank because there were no seats available inside. What normally takes 30 minutes took me two hours that day. I was sitting on the floor in the tiny reception area of the blood bank, and they had a tiny TV there. That was the first time I saw footage of the towers collapsing. I'd heard the news that the towers had collapsed on the radio headed to the blood bank. But I was utterly horror struck when I saw it. I sat there slack jawed and shell shocked, and all I could do was cry.

When I got off work, I didn't want to go home alone so I drove over to my Mom's house. She opened the door before I could even knock as if she'd been expecting me, even though I hadn't called her. We just hugged each other, cried, hugged, cried, and sat watching the news coverage into the wee hours.

And that was 9/11 for me. Tonight I watched some of the shows commemorating 9/11. I still cannot see the footage without weeping. I don't think I will ever be able to.

I was at home, recovering from radiation treatment for cancer. My SO at the time, called from her office,and said to turn on the TV. I asked what channel? She said, any channel, just turn it on, and hung up. I could tell she had been crying from the sound of her voice. I spent every minute the rest of the day, glued to the TV. Called a few acquaintenances to ask if they had heard from our friends, Steve, or Nancy. None had. They died in the south tower that day. Another close friend, Leroy Homer, was the first officer on United flight 93, in which the passengers fought with the terrorists. I had flown often with Leroy when we were in the USAF. He was an excellent pilot, good husband and father. I miss them, very much. There are four words that bring instant tears to my eyes, as there are now...."United Ninety Three, Cleveland". RIP Capt Homer, Sir.

I was only 23 years old at the time, and living in an apartment with my then GF and my brother, about 25 minutes down I-95 from the Pentagon. I drove a cab at the time, and my brother delivered newspapers to grocery stores.

I partied on 9-10 with a few friends, and the night ended with us talking politics. I remember saying that considering the shit this country has pulled, that it was amazing that Oklahoma City had only happened once. I went to bed around 3 in the morning.

My brother was busy doing his paper route, heard the news, and came home and woke me up, saying that we were under attack. What? I thought some teenagers were throwing rocks at our apartment. He repeated himself, and said the that we're under attack. I told him that he wasn't making sense and he should leave me alone to get my beauty sleep. He then pulled the covers off the bed, and yelled, the country is under attack. We need to go pick up your GF before she's killed. My GF worked in D.C. and she commuted there, taking the metro train at the Pentagon every day.

My brother told me he had talked to her on the phone and made plans to pick her up at the Springfield metro station. I threw on some clothes and we headed there to go pick her up. My brother had the radio on and I kept listening to the news pour in. I very vividly remember the Don and Mike show talk about the attack, but also mentioned that numerous car bombs had exploded around the city, including one in front of the State Dept. I kept trying to mentally calculate how many people had just been killed, and wondering if I would ever see my GF again, and thinking that I'm not that lucky, that she's probably dead. I looked up to see a jaw dropping sight, the interstate was closed down after the Springfield exit.

I got to the metro station and started talking to a middle aged woman who was waiting for her husband to arrive. She seemed particularly shaken up. We were informed at the metro that the next train was the last train to the station. My GF got out of the train. That middle aged woman's husband didn't. She burst into tears as we all left to go home.

I got home, and had to visit everyone I knew to let them know I was okay. Calling them was out of the question. Telephones didn't work all day. Everything just seemed surreal, like a dream.

A month or so later I picked up a cab fare. A nice lady who worked in the Pentagon. She called in sick that day. It saved her life. But every friend she had in the world worked there too, and all of them died that day.

the shutting down of the airports was really tough on the cabbies. I went from clearing 4 grand a month (good damn money for a 23 year old) to not even clearing minimum wage over night. It wasn't long before I had to find another line of work.

-- Modified on 9/11/2010 10:28:01 PM

... and then spent much of the rest of the day glued to the television in shock, anger, and overwhelming grief.  

A couple friends came over so they wouldn't have to be alone... We could not help ourselves, we just kept watching the collapse of the towers over and over and over again, I wish I wish I WISH the videotape I made that day hadn't been destroyed by the capriciousness of time and a leaky storage cabinet.

I found out only a few days later that my cousin, a close relative, had lost a daughter and his son in law that day. Didn't know the husband, only met him once, at their wedding.

My nephews wife watched the whole thing from inside her car on the brooklyn bridge. To this day, she is unable to talk about it without tearing up.

& I'm sure many on the left,if exposed to that nonsense, would feel the same way.

You're engaging in a stereotyping "demonization" of progressives so beloved by the far right. That would be the equivalent of me saying that
all conservatives are bigots that are either rich
or stupid white trash. Now we know that isn't true,don't we ?

I guess only 90% of the left blamed the US for 9/11----my, how even handed of you--------LMAO !

Gee, I can engage in that kind of Sophistry myself : " Not all conservatives are bigots, but all bigots are conservative"

Between people announcing they're gonna burn Korans on youtube & the sweeping generalizations
found here, I can honestly say that this board
never fails to to surprise me. Which is not necessarily a good thing.

-- Modified on 9/12/2010 7:12:20 AM

just like many on the far right have no problems with the murder of abortion doctors, they see no irony in promoting  murder to supposedly "save lives". A lot of stereotypes are rooted in fact, this is just one of them.

That said, is it any wonder that I shun Willy and rarely if ever engage that pile of shit in direct conversation. You are the guys that are responsible for him still being a part of this board. If it were up to me, no one would respond to his bile and he would simply be a bad memory. Even Charlie the Commie, a man three degrees left of Castro has the decency to respect those that died, regardless of his political beliefs. Willy is a vile piece of waste, and should be shunned here, but if you guys want to continue to "feed the troll", he will be here for a long time to come.

"You may not blame the US for 9-11.  But if you look at the universe of people who made comments that hint at blaming the victim, you will find 90% are on the left."

Okay, let's look at that.

     Can you give us one link that even remotely supports your claim
that 90% of the people who blame the US for 9/11 are on the left?

     I'll accept Rush Limbaugh, Glen Beck, Ann Coulter, or even something an inmate recently released from prison told you.

But, I will say this-----I found WW's remarks to be stupidly offensive.

Now ,unlike my criminal defense lawyer friend, I can be quite evenhanded. There are equal amounts of trolls in here from both sides of political spectrum : on the left : Willy, Trannyboy, Marikod & Xiao. On the right : Southern Jezebel,
Liorr, Quadseasonal & surprisingly, ed2000, who has morphed into a theocratic, priggish teapartier. Now some will say I have some personal animus towrd these folks----maybe true,
but I think some will agree with me that they make outrageous statements on this board from time to time. Of course, same criticism can be levelled against me, which is fine------I know I can be an obnoxious asshole on occasion-----LOL !

Some will disagree with my selections,but I don't think anyone will disagree with me that trolls from the left & the right should be shunned.

-- Modified on 9/12/2010 7:39:09 AM

Seems to be a common theme around here, misquoting a statement and then disagreeing with the ammended statement instead of what the writer actually said.

While I disagree with some of your choices, I will certainly agree that not only are there trolls on both side of the aisle, but that they should be shunned as well. One caveat I would like to add to my statement is that only true trolls deserve to be shunned, just because I disagree with someone, even if I disagree constantly and have little respect for that person, someone like AnonymousFun for example. I don't believe that they should all be shunned.

The disagreements are what makes this board worth posting on. It would be a very boring place if we all thought the same.

because "many" could be interpreted as "the majority".

I will say this------unlike my crimal defense lawyer friend, I would never say many conservatives are 9/11 "truthers" ( US govt was behind the attack ). I make it a habit of not making sweeping generalizations.

& I agree that it's great to have all points of view in here. It's what makes this board so entertaining, informative & damned exasperating
at the same time.

but that doesn't mean that many on the far right feel that way. There have been several espousing that position on this very board.

I will agree that there are many more lefties that feel the US "deserved 9-11" than there are righties that feel murdering abortion doctors is justified, but it's only a matter of degree, both sentiments exist, and in far greater numbers than is acceptable IMO.

Sorry Phil, I may be considered a "rightie" around here, but I have serious disagreements with the religious right, and I don't delude myself about the people I necessarily align myself with for financial and National security reasons.  I find some if not most people on the far right extremely distasteful, and have to literally hold my nose when siding with or voting for them.

misrepresent his experience. His report: "I partied on 9-10 with a few friends, and the night ended with us talking politics. I remember saying that considering the shit this country has pulled, that it was amazing that Oklahoma City had only happened once. I went to bed around 3 in the morning," was what he said the night before, and the reference was specifically to domestic terrorism. I read that his first emotions, after the attack, were disbelief, and then desperation to make certain his girlfriend was safe.

As for those who had the feelings that you attribute to WW, I very much doubt that was their first feeling after the attack. And, under extreme loss and threat, it is common for people to place blame, and often it goes to those who are not fully to blame. Even those who are victimized may take on inappropriate blame, and often there is the blaming of the victim. That's not a left or right issue, that is an issue of how humans deal with grief and loss.

In the aftermath of such an event, it is helpful to distinguish between blame, vs. who is responsible for what, in order to help prevent such an occurrence from happening again.

I find it predictable and telling that Willy would choose his very first paragraph on the subject, (excuse me, second paragraph) to voice his opinion that he thought that we were overdue for an attack because of "shit our country has pulled"

WW has had almost a decade to process his feelings, I choose to believe his words over your apologist explanation of those words. Willy has countless posts here that show what he's made of, ok not countless, but almost three thousand posts here, I think it's quite clear how this worthless piece of shit actually thinks.

Matt, you are a nice person. Too nice IMO opinion, hence many of us referring to you as StMatt, but Willy doesn't deserve your apologies, or your explanations. We all know what he is made of. If he were to cross the street in front of me, I doubt that I would even tap my brakes. I am not saying I would stomp on the accelerator, but ............roflmfao

because I find I have little if anything in come with how or what he thinks. However, I do think Phil, in his post is misrepresenting what WW said in his post. I don't disagree that there's plenty in WW's posting history that could lead Phil to make some assumptions about WW's feelings about 9/11, however, I am focusing on just the two posts and how Phil then generalized WW's post to a whole group of people who have a certain worldview that is opposed to his own.

You said, ". . .trolls...on the right... & surprisingly, ed2000, who has morphed into a theocratic, priggish teapartier."

1) Morphed? I haven't changed at all. I've been here longer than anyone including GaGambler and have 10% more posts than his 5000.

2) You can't find anything to back up your theocratic charge.

3) Priggish? You only think that because you can never find a logical retort to my points.

4) Teapartier. Well, actually no. I've never participated in any of their events, either directly or indirectly. At least you've grown up past the use of "teabagger".

5) Troll? LOL

And then you have the audacity to ask the rest of us to become introspective about the lack a civility, ROFLMAO.

Have you ever considered how your own participation here is a large contributor to the lack of civility? Only in a "joking" way, I'm sure.  





-- Modified on 9/12/2010 11:28:02 AM

I was so young when Kennedy was killed, I didn't realize exactly what death represented.
I do remember where I was in school on that day ,because I got in big trouble for joking around, about something else.
The two most vivid memories of things outside my daily life that I remember exactly where I was, were the Challenger disaster and September 11 2001.

I haven't seen any noticeable changes in Ed's postitions or demeanor in the several years we have both been here. and he has been here longer and has even more posts than even a blabbermouth like me has. lol

I also think that there is nothing wrong with many of the Tea Parties positions. While Ed and I might disagree about religion, and it's relative merits, or lack thereof. lol I still don't see how the Tea Parties stated goals of smaller government, lower taxes, more accountabilty, etc are anything to ridicule.

Priapus, you claim to be even handed with only a slight left wing bias, ridiculing a movement with these core values doesn't seem very open minded to me. Now ridiculing individual whack job, religious eextremists that belong to the Tea Party is one thing, but referring to the entire party as a bunch of nuts doesn't seem very open minded to me.

Damn Ed, do you realize that we post a lot? I mean A LOT!!! ROFL

Oh BTW, I consider ed one of the more reasonable posters here, even when we do disagree.

It still accounts for the feelings of hundreds of thousands, if not millions of people. That is no small number, and certainly qualifies as "many" IMO, no matter how large or small a statistical percentage they represent, it still qualifies as "many"

You may disagree with my opinion, but I believe that very religious people, of which there are millions, are by and large a very bloodthirsty bunch with very little regard for those that they view to be "sinners" We can agree to disagree if you like, but that is my position and after fifty years of suffering under their rule, you aren't likely to ever change my mind on the subject.

Your experiences may be quite different, but try living in the "heartland" of this country, or the deep south for a few years, and you may have a change of heart.

WW explains where he was, and then recounts his first emotion - amazement we hadn't been attacked  before because of what we have done.

No group is without sin.  If Mecca were nuked, would WW's first reaction be, "considering the stuff done in the name of Islam, it is amazing it didn't happen before."

If China were hit with a horrific attack, would his first reaction be "considering what they did to Tibet, it's amazing to took so long."

You can always find fault with the victims.  Considering the disproportionate success Jews had in Germany, they deserved a little commupance.  Considering the cruel things the Chinese emperors did, Nanking was understandable. Considering Pearl Harbor....

But you never hear anything like the last few paragraphs when people do bad things to others.  

Unless it's the US and the left. Then Willie's first reaction isconsidering what we did, it's amazing it didn't happen before.

but downright dangerous to say out loud that you found their religion downright silly.

The mob mentality that Christians can work themselves into is a downright scary experience. I spent decades being advised to keep my religious opinions to myself, to "respect their beliefs" while all the while being told that if I didn't believe their particular version of the fairy tale I would spend eternity burning in hell. Not to mention in many parts of the country I have lived in, it could be downright hazardous to your health to speak out against the church, much less ridicule religion like many finally feel free to do today.

I still wouldn't recommend going into many of those little redneck towns and spouting off that "there is no god", even today that kind of speech in the wrong neck of the woods will get you an ass whipping or even worse.

I am glad your experiences have been different than mine, but I have lived in about 30 of the 50 states and I seen this type of behavior on many an ocassion. If you try to mess with a rednecks religion, you are in for a fight, and I don't mean a virtual or verbal fight.

I am willing to bet you also haven't been in a town where black people are scared to go into certain bars either. I have been in plenty where even today, "them niggers have their own bars, they aint allowed in here" I know how to "speak redneck" which is the only reason a little asian fucker like me is  allowed in some of these places.

I know racist and religious are not synonymous terms, but the two do go hand in hand. I have yet to be in any racist, redneck town, that wasn't highly religious to boot.

and someone said that there was a plane crash in New York . A few moments later they said that there were 2 crashes and that the crashes were on TV. I thought that they were bullshiting me till I turned on
a TV and watched in horror and disbelief as the planes hit the WTC. The building that I was in was evacuated for safety reasons and I headed home. Latter that afternoon I found out that it was a terrorist attack. A few days later I was flying to the southeast and all of the airports were like armed camps. There was extra tight security everywhere that I went. It is a hard thing to see people die.

Generalizations are supposed to be comments about "in general."  They are never intended to be universal, and there are always those that don't fit, by definition.

In general, the French tend to use more garlic than do the Scotts. In general, Japanese eat more fish than people in the Sahara.  In general, the left favors abortion rights.

Of course there are French that don't eat garlic, Scots that do, Japanese who don't like fish, conservative (fiscal) who are pro-choice, and liberals who are pro life.

You may not blame the US for 9-11.  But if you look at the universe of people who made comments that hint at blaming the victim, you will find 90% are on the left.

The first example is Obama. ADMITTEDLY it was a variation, but it was still a version of we have been arrogant, we have tried to impose our will, we have X, Y, and Z'd.

And by the way, the left engages in the same thing. Howard Dean said that unlike the GOP, the Dems care of kids are hungry.  No lefty complained about generalizations.

Obama JUST quoted Kennedy, ask why the GOP doesn't like working people. I could say, he is a jerk, I like working people.

If I were to say to you, "The right favors capital punishment" would you deny that in general that is the case.

Choose to believe whatever you like, but I've seen what I've seen.

I am glad you have chosen to live in polite society, where things like this don't happen. I have lived a different life, with different experiences. Let's just agree to disagree on the subject. If nothing else, I am done with the topic. for today at least. lol

Once he gets two or three servings under his belt, he'll be back to his usual self.










Wait a minute - his usual self is worse....

which is why this conversation is no longer a productive one. You clearly don't believe me, and before the conversation degenerates into anyone calling the other a liar, I choose to simply end the discussion.

but at 5' 10" and only about 170, I don't think I have too much to worry about.

So I guess you have established that Pripus wouldn't make much of a point guard, but he might make a pretty decent "offensive" lineman. lol

Sorry Pri, but I am an equal opportunity asshole.

I weigh 176, so "Mary's" comments have little effect on me.

Btw, Mary doesn't often refer to the 12 "ethereal
baklava" he had with his "good friends" in the
Ahmendijad governement some months ago-----

I am done with this conversation.

You are calling me a liar quite nicely, but you are still calling me a liar. While we still like each other, I suggest you let it go. My next remarks to you won't be so polite.

If you make up something I say, like 90% of the left blamed the U.S., you will laugh your ass off.

And of course I was talking generally.  Does that have to be explained?  If I said, "Dem's voted for Obama," would you say you know one who didn't?  

The bottom line is that certain world views do gravitate to certain parties.  If you generally believe that people can make it own their own, you will tend to vote a certain way.  This doesn't mean that you think everyone can make it on their own, that no one needs help, that calamities never occur to people who work.  But if that is your general view, you do not see as much of a need for government aid than you would if you believed otherwise.  Therefore, you will vote a certain way.

If you believe that economics is more - I SAID MORE BEFORE YOU MISCONSTURE - of a determining factor in society, you will tend to one side of the aisle.  

Getting back to this specific instance: Everyone who publicly said anything similar WAS on one side of the aisle. Ward Churchill being exhibit A, although Jimmy Carter had a similar comment.  Find anyone who expressed a "chickens coming home" mentality, and I will give you 2 to 1 where they stand.

Many on the right do not think it is okay to murder abortion doctors.  It is limited to a tiny fringe.

I defy you to find one major person who does.  Go to any serious forum like Townhall or HotAir.  You can find all the major columnists by the score and get their archives for years.  You won't find one person expressing that view, outside of a handful f comments.

Even in the religous right, with hundreds of churches promoting "life,"you are hard pressed to find one sermon justifying this.

Find one article in the archives of TownHall or NRO and I will say I am sorry.

I am sorry, but several people on a board does not mean that it represents any significant section of the conservative movement or body.  The bottom line is that 10% of the people think Elvis is alive.  There are always fringes.  Fringes are going to be more vocal on this type of board.

You say they can't afford to voice that type of opinion. But you overlook the fact that there are many conservatives who have NO ambition for broader powers or status.  There are many who are very outspoken and are not afraid of offending people.  Michael Savage is hardly the type to hold his counsel for diplomacy.  Ann Coulter is equally "bold," and doesn't seem shy about expressing her views.

Indeed, if there were any significant number, that would be a built in market that would be worth tapping.  The country is pretty evenly split. Even on abortion, it is not a slam dunk in either direction.  In fact, that is why the left is not willing to put it to a vote, but relies on the judiciary.

This means that of the roughly 50% with some type of pro-life view, if only 5% favored killing abortion doctors, you would have a "market" of millions.

People wear offensive T-shrits all the time. This morning at the gym, one guy was wearing on that said, "What the F'in part of F don't you F'in understand, you stupid F."  (censorship mine obviously.)  I see all sorts of nasty bumper stickers.  

The L.A. Times, Chronicle, and a dozen other papers love to print letters that make the other side look silly.  Zero, zilch, nada.

When you have a 100% absence in any serious forum, that has to indicate something. With close to 50% pro-life to some degree, you would think there would be at least an inkling in any forum by at least one major person.  Even Ron Paul has come out in favor of repealing parts of the Civil Rights legislation (I say some because I am not familiar with his exact position.)

I'm sorry, but I have to believe the almost invisible nature of that view is too telling to attribute it to any serious number except the extreme fringe.

I agree, I was born in 69 so kennedy I wasnt even born

They say experience is the worst teacher because it teaches something different to everybody.

I know many deeply religious people, and don't know one who I could describe as anything close to "bloodthirsty."  I lived in the "heartland" for three extended periods, and would be amazed if anyone I ever met came close to that view.

As a non-religous Jew who lived in the Fly Over Zone where they cling to guns and religion, I don't think I ever met anyone who had "no regard" for me as a person, even though I am a known sinner.  

You say you "suffer" nder their rule.  How exactly do you suffer?  Do they throw rocks through your window? Smash your car?  

I must say I find this sad.  The decency of most people has always astounded me. To know that they really were bloodthirsty tyrants who subject you to all sorts of suffering is really an eye opener.

You say it wasn't too long ago that it was acceptable for Christians to force feed religion to others. Yes, just three years ago they repealed the law in Texas that allowed Christians to drag Jews to church.  Likewise, it was only in 1998 that it became legal to have a temple in  Georgia.

Ma pappy was hog tied and baptized by them red necks.  They done forced pork chops down his pants and made him drink wine that wasn't Manashevitz. (Lucky him.) What world is this?  (Funny, the syangogues in Natchez and Port Gibson Mississippi have never been attacked.  Count the hick towns in Mississippi with synagogues.  Go try and find 5 instances in the last 30 years.)

Where do you make up these facts?  When was the last time in U.S. history that Christians worked themselves into a "mob mentality" and attacked someone?  Come on. You make it sound common.  Was there one incident in the last 50 years?  NO

With your millions of hate infested Christians, surely you can come up with six examples in the last 30 years that are documented where a Christian mob attacked people.

They have athiesst and even JEWS - oh, shit - througout the south, and the last lynching was Leon Frank almost 100 years ago, and that wasn't even that much of a religion issue but a rape issue.

You portray this frenzied bodies of zealots, but where the hell are the results.  Surely, if those redneck bastards in Alabama attacked an athiest in the last 20 years the N.Y Times would love the story.  Nope. Nothing in the NY Times. SF Chronicle. Boston Globe. Gosh, maybe them rednecks control AP.

As with abortion foes favoring murder you create a world that is totally undocumented even in the most liberal press.  

There has been provocation aplenty.  Mapplethorp's "Piss Christ," the Virgin Mary in Dung, another Virgin Mary with blood from you know where.  People peacefully protested, but not one riot. Not one crazed mob.  

At the very worst, FIFTY years ago, the Beatles said they were more popular than Jesus and in the deep south they burnt records.  RECORDS, not people, RECORDS.  And that was one or two bonfires.  Does "Danish Cartoon" ring a bell?"

GABAMBLER sees it every day with people afraid to walk into bars and Jesus Freaks bustin' athiest heads.  And it goes unreported, unreported, unreported.  Do you ever ask yourself why these stories of mass riots don't get much press?  In L.A. a gang banger shoots a rival. In the press.  But raging Christians. Silence.

And I should believe you.

We can agree to disagree, but  I sure wish you could show me your world in some documented form.

I remember I was watching the Challenger launch and knew imedately it was a disaster, but don't remember where. Both JFK and 9/11 are a lot more vivid. Bobby Kennedy and the Regean attemp wasn't nearly as big.

I would drive 100 mph full speed, ww please come to nyc

It is the fact that they are so out of sync with the reported world.  

You describe mobs of Christian fanatics, running rampant and attacking people.  But none of that has ever been seen or reported.

A gay guy gets beaten up in Wyoming and it is national news for years, drawing comments from every major paper and politician. But somehow, the fanatic Christians oppressing people in mass hysteria escapes the New York Times.

I just asked for one example of Christian mobs. and Christian oppression.

I am not calling you a liar. I am sure you believe it. I would just say you should ask yourself why it it such a totally unreported event and understand my questioning attitude.

It goes without saying that the 9/11 attack was directed at the ruling and capitalist classes of the USA. It is the price that we all pay for capitalist imperialism. There are no victims  in war there are only casualties.
The Propaganda is that the attack was an attack on the American way of life. The purpose of this view is to get the middle class to support US imperialism. The propaganda seems to have worked well. Phil you can pull some "facts" out of your ass to dispute my view but I ain't listening so don't waste your time!

taken at face value (which I'm more than happy to do) though they are based more on your narrow experience than a broadbased set of facts.

Yet when religious people do the same thing you call them idiots. You call the Bible "fairy tales"

Perhaps, like yourself, people who "believe" do so due to personal experiences that don't follow the script of well accepted factual representation.

Just something to consider.