Or so goes the conservative mindset on the subject.

Of course, all this political theory can be tested and we can examine the results.

After WW2, Truman was trying to establish the full vision of the New Deal, but the GOP blocked him from doing so.

To prove that the GOP was wrong Truman set up Western Europe to embody those Keynesian ideals. West Germany, France, and the UK all got the same treatment. Norway, Sweden, Denmark, the Netherlands, Switzerland, and Italy all very much followed suit.

They established universal health care, made unions powerful, and in Germany they even made it a requirement that union members sit on the executive board of companies.

This resulted in Europe becoming the the strongest economic powers in the free world, only overshadowed by the United States.

This has stuck in the crawl of conservatives ever since, especially the free marketeers. And so they set out to establish their own case studies to prove that free markets could establish a better society than the Keynesian big government model.

Case study #1: Chile. Under the new military dictatorship of Pinochet, a free market was estabilshed. The result was that inflation reached nearly 400%, the highest in the world, and 70% of incomes were needed just to buy bread. Verdict: FAIL.

Case study #2: Argentina. A similar model was applied in Argentina in '76, and within a year wages lost 40% of their value, poverty skyrocketed, and the military juanta disappeared any dissidents. This led directly to Argentina's entire economy collapsing. Verdict: FAIL.

Case study #3: the UK. Thatcher privatized much of the UK's state industry, but was unable to fully establish a total free market model. The result again was that poverty skyrocketed, CEOs fortune's soared, and the UK was plunged into debt. Verdict: FAIL.

Case study #5: Russia. With Gorbachev forced out of power, Yeltzin sought to establish a free market vision for Russia. The result was that Russian GDP fell by 50%, vast sectors of the economy was wiped out, unemployment skyrocketed, hyperinflation wiped out personal savings, and millions were plunged into poverty. Verdict: FAIL.

Case study #6: Iraq. When the US invaded in 2003, the Baathish government was overthrown, and Paul Bremer sought to establish a free market vision for Iraq, and Rumsfeld even boasted that Iraq had some of the "most enlightened and inviting tax and investment laws in the free world". Bremer fired 500,000 state workers, who without an income joined the resistance movement. Billions were spent for private business to reestablish electricity and water supplies, both of which were not built. Verdict: FAIL.

This led Steven Colbert to opine at the White House Correspondents Dinner that, "the government that governs least, governs best, and in that respect we're doing a wonderful job in Iraq."

Indeed. Unfortunately, the lessons of history has yet to catch on for the free marketeer capitalist fundamentalists in the United States.

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." - George Santayana

Buffet,Turner and the Gates on This Week with Christine Amanpour.

With government being reduced to two parties spending all their time trashing the other and trying to convince everyone that the other party is unelectable, rather than governing, it may take some of the rich to jump in in key situations. The interview had an interesting example with Turner did.

"People like Gates...can afford to dish out 20 or 30 million and they won't miss it. Some of them have two or three mansions in one city, plus multiple summer homes. When you make $30,000,000 for 3 months work...you can afford a few million."

I couldn't have said it better myself Phil. :::grins:::  



-- Modified on 11/30/2010 2:50:36 PM

but nice try. lol

Considering there are thousands of times the number of government employess as there are billionaires, maybe we should just cut the pay of all federal employees by ten or twenty percent?

You don't seem to have any problems stealing my money, a little turn about seems like fair play to me. lmao

Probably the easiest bet to establish is an over/under on when the tax issue is resolved. How about Dec 31, 2010 for the over/under. I'll go with the under, but only if Pelosi is bound, gagged, and refused botox from now until the end of the year.

The next bet is what will actually happen. Choices are:

1. Make permanent the Bush tax cuts for all.
2. Make permanent the tax cuts for those making under $200K/$250K, but raise taxes above that level.
3. Make permanent the tax cuts for those making under $200K/$250K, but extend the taxes above that amount for 2 years.
4. Make permanent the Bush tax cuts for those making $1M or less.

I'll go out on a limb and take #4. Long shot, but what the hell.

This saga is like if skinny people fight to get airline seats smaller



-- Modified on 11/30/2010 12:21:28 PM

I thought we were only talking about extending those tax cuts.

Question: We're 13 trillion in the hole. Why should anyone get a tax cut?

First, that group consists of extremely wealthy.  People like Gates and Hollywood people like DiCaprio (not sure if they are in the group, just using them as examples of rich lefties) can afford to dish out 20 or 30 million and they won't miss it.   Some of them have two or three mansions in one city, plus multiple summer homes.  When you make $30,000,000 for 3 months work on a movie, and get another 10 million in royalties, and when you can afford to sell your still picture to an advertisment for a million, then you don't even know what your taxes were and you can afford a few million.  

The impact on someone like that means that he may not be able to afford his 5th house of 2nd jet.  I don't want them lecturing me on how much to pay.

For people like me, its a huge difference in my life.

Second, Bush's idea to go shopping was good. We just took a huge hit.  No one knew what the financial impact would be. Hotels in Chicago and New York and every other city were taking a huge drop in guests.  Restaurants had a similar, if a little less impact.

In Israel, when a bomb goes off in a shopping district, they clean up the surrounding stores, and the next day people are engaging in commerce.

It sounds simpistic, but getting people buying and selling was a great idea.  The worst thing that could have happened would be for people to have been paralyzed by fear and afraid to engage in commerce.  

It is so easy to laugh at, but when you think of the alternative, it isn't such a bad idea.

I said they can afford it. I didn't say it's a good idea.

Can you ever respond to something that I write without distorting it?

Willie says it's good to cut off rich people's heads.  TWo can play

-- Modified on 12/1/2010 8:41:08 AM

If the 500 or so billionaires and multi-billionaires and 35,000 people who are TRUE* millionaires in this country want to contribute more money to our government; nobody is holding a gun to their head preventing it.

It is THEIR money, and they can write a check to anyone they wish anytime they wish. There is NO NEED for a law to make this happen. None. If they are so damned "patriotic" all they need to do is write a check. Simple.

In this case, I think liberals are just being "useful idiots." Otherwise smart people aren't using their brains. Let's do some math.

1. Income taxes tax income, NOT existing wealth. All the income tax in the world will not diminish someone's wealth.
2. People are JEALOUS of people with more wealth. Superficial advocacies like this are simple envy-avoidance strategies. This is especially the case as they make no impact on people who are already wealthy.
3. Income taxes are an EXCELLENT way to keep people from ever ACCUMULATING wealth.
4. Thus, high progressive income taxes serve to PROTECT those who are already wealthy from competition by the newly wealthy.
5. Therefore, this is a self-serving advocacy intended to preserve the POWER OF A FEW and prevent it from being diluted.

Liberals of all people should be smart enough to see through this shit.


* I define a true millionaire as someone with a net worth exceeding 20M. What 20M? Because that is how much net worth someone has to have in order to have the same buting power that someone with $1M had when the Federal Reserve was first created. Yes, do the math. Since the creation of the fed, the dollar has lost 95% of its value. And that's just by OFFICIAL numbers. Either way, someone with a net worth of $1M today is by no means wealthy. Better off than most, certainly -- but not wealthy. That's the equivalent of $50k back in 1916. Kinda sobering ... huh?

...it seems strange that you should accuse me of distorting what you say. I mean, isn't that in your job description, Phil? Distort what other people say?

"Willie says it's good to cut off rich people's heads. TWo can play"

--Phil. You say that, like it's a BAD thing.

First, as usual, you did not address anything I said. Just a  personal attack. When someone has a weak argument, that is one of the main lines of attack. You do it a lot

As to the merits, I do not have to distort facts. I am in a very unusual area of the law. I deal in appeals. By that time the facts are decided, and there is little to argue about in terms of facts.  It is a discussion of law, so I don't have do distort facts.

THere are other areas of law where it is not necessary to distort facts. Estate planning, adoption, etc. WIth some thought, I could come up with 20 more areas.

If fact, if lawyers distort facts, it is probably only in a limited area of trial and litigation.  So your ignorance is on display.

In fact, this is a perfect example of you distoring reality to fit your view.
It is also a nice profiling and sterotyping of assuming all lawyers act in a certain way. How un PC

In any event, when other lawyers do that, there are ethical limits. You just twist in a dishonest way.

Posted By: willywonka4u

...it seems strange that you should accuse me of distorting what you say. I mean, isn't that in your job description, Phil? Distort what other people say?

"Willie says it's good to cut off rich people's heads. TWo can play"

--Phil. You say that, like it's a BAD thing.