Come and Take It Rallies- Really, really bad idea or just really bad?
So in the last few months I have persuaded the Board that the Armed Citizens Project, laws permitting the blind to get concealed carry permits, and arming school teachers are all absolutely insane. And the inevitable consequence of Mein’s plan to arm school teachers is that you would have to arm blind teachers as well as sighted ones. (That’s right-look up the Americans with Disabilities Act-he hadn't thought of that). But anyone who wasn’t dropped on the head at birth would recognize the folly of any of the foregoing. Now we come to a more difficult problem that I would like to nip in the bud but I don’t think I can – the Come and Take It Rally. In early July, about 200 men, women, and children marched down a street in Temple, Texas with loaded rifles and shotguns strapped to their bodies or cradled in their arms. I thought they had escaped from the local sanitarium but it turns out that they were marching to support their Second Amendment rights. Texas allows open carry of long arms so my first plan –arrest them all- didn’t work. And, of course, the First Amendment safeguards this kind of peaceable expression. Notwithstanding the in- your- face name of the rally, the marchers were polite, orderly, and reasonable, except for the guy in the yellow shirt on the video who said he would die before he would let anyone take his guns. There were no accidents, or other incidents. So why is this a bad idea? Because they could have made the same point without having their guns loaded. While there are no hard numbers on this, internet sources claim 100,000 gun accidents per year in the United States. It stands to reason that if you group 200 armed but barely trained people in a parade you simply amplify the likelihood of an accidental shooting. If you watch the video, you can see one guy messing with his gun while it is pointed at another guy’s feet. And if we start having Come and Take it Rallies in other towns, the risk just increases. So I say let’s go back to my first plan – arrest them all for disorderly conduct, or something. We arrest street walkers for prancing around in hot pants and high heels but we let these guys go? Come on. Who’s with me on thisThen people participating in parades, while carrying guns loaded with live fire ammo.
BigVern want's to ban parades in your town.
Only police and other "qualified" and properly trained and licensed personnel should be allowed anywhere near a parade float.
I think you are much more likely to get killed by a rogue military drone than by a peaceful demonstrator at a pro 2nd ammendment rally. I think I will take my chances and continue to support both the 1st and 2nd ammendments.
Now off to the shower I go! I know, I know- I like to live dangerously! Lol.
but
1. how many of your 'bathroom injuries" occurred in a public place? Since you seem to be numerically challenged, I will answer that one for you. ZERO.
2. how many of your bathroom injuries were inflicted by another person? Since you seem to be numerically challenged, I will answer that one for you. ZERO.
3. how does the social utility of hundreds of people carrying loaded guns down main street - when the same point could be made with unloaded guns - compare with using your bathroom? NOT VERY WELL- we certainly need clean hookers. We don't need yahoos marching thru the streets with loaded guns to express their viewers.
Got to raise your game if you want to play on my threads
1. there are whole law firms that solicit people who were injured in public restrooms. So I would estimate zero isn't correct.
http://www.waukeshapersonalinjurylawyer.com/articles/accidents-in-public-restrooms/
2. There are some instances where the party is injured by others in public restrooms. Rapes, assaults and being filmed without your consent come to mind. Public restrooms are 5th for location of stranger rapes actually if I remember correctly.
CHARLESTON – A woman has filed a suit against Charleston Area Medical Center after she was raped in a public restroom at Women and Children’s Hospital.
http://wvrecord.com/news/196932-woman-blames-camc-for-rape-in-public-restroom
Same law office- Possible Issues Regarding Public Restrooms Poorly cared for public restrooms can cause injuries in a number of ways, including: Slip-and-fall accidents due to wet floors without any warning signs Defective handicap equipment, such as loose railing Injury or infection due to unsanitary conditions Invasion of privacy (different circumstances in which this could be a factor) - See more at: http://www.waukeshapersonalinjurylawyer.com/articles/accidents-in-public-restrooms/#sthash.Ojq0zbtI.dpuf
3. Were the guns chambered or just loaded theres a big difference. It might not be the best idea but if the laws allow it what is your issue. You have stated repeatedly that big banks didn't technically break the law so they cant be held responsible; whats the difference? This open carry isn't even in a gray area like the big banks were operating.
for a change on that one. The number isn't not ZERO but still thepother objections to her analogy stand; there is almost no chance of injuring someone else in the bathroom and the risk of harm posed is much greater - a gun shot may be fatal is almost always serious.
Damn law firms soliciting for public bathroom injuries- no wonder everyone hates lawyers. LOL
The Top 5 Causes of Accidental Home Injury Deaths—and How to Prevent Them
http://money.usnews.com/money/blogs/the-home-front/2009/08/31/the-top-5-causes-of-accidental-home-injury-deathsand-how-to-prevent-them
Please note that guns/firearms don't appear on that list but water/drowning sure does.
Now do you want me to go look up the number of people who have accidentially killed their children or elderly relatives by leaving them unsupervised in the bathroom? Or can we leave that one alone? Hmm??
No? Then feel free to read about child hot water scalding related injuries HERE-
http://antiscald.com/prevention/general_info/facts.php
Or unintentional drownings HERE-
http://www.cdc.gov/homeandrecreationalsafety/water-safety/waterinjuries-factsheet.html
Think Grams is safe? THINK AGAIN!
http://informationaboutbathsafety.blogspot.com/2008/06/prevent-household-injuries.html?m=1
http://www.best-bath.com/blog/index.php/2011/02/bathroom-falls-and-injuries-data-studies-and-statistics
Hookerwhoneedstoreviewagrammarbookbeforehernext post.
Nonetheless, I will concede that your bathroom sounds more dangerous than marching in a rally with 200 yahoos who are carrying loaded guns.
Point taken.
I also think my lawyer(who wouldn't actually be a lawyer) could argue the same points with out a law degree.
an unloaded fire arm has as much clout as a lawyer who never passed the bar.
"Firearms stand next in importance to the constitution itself. They are the American people's liberty teeth and keystone under independence … from the hour the Pilgrims landed to the present day, events, occurences and tendencies prove that to ensure peace security and happiness, the rifle and pistol are equally indispensable … the very atmosphere of firearms anywhere restrains evil interference — they deserve a place of honor with all that's good."
- George Washington
"Are we at last brought to such humiliating and debasing degradation, that we cannot be trusted with arms for our defense? Where is the difference between having our arms in possession and under our direction and having them under the management of Congress? If our defense be the real object of having those arms, in whose hands can they be trusted with more propriety, or equal safety to us, as in our own hands?"
- Patrick Henry
Dear lord, man, how many times a day do you shit your pants over the idea that someone somewhere has a gun?
North Dakota has legalized teachers carrying guns. Here's the thing. It doesn't force every teacher to carry a gun. It ALLOWS them to carry, IF they want and IF they can pass and VERY thorough firearms training course. It is recommended that any teacher who wants to carry should already have a concealed carry license.
Surprise, surprise there wasn't a single incident at that rally. Where do you think most of the gun accidents happen? At 2nd amendment rallies? Gun shows? Or in the hood where some wanna-be thug points a gun at anyone who looks at him funny because he thinks it's a status symbol?
If I recall correctly, you live in the DC metro area. You doing anything the weekend of Sept. 27th? Come on out to the gun show at the Dulles Expo Center.
http://thenationsgunshow.com/
Last time I was there, the place was packed. As packed as say a Redskins game if they could ever make the playoffs. You can rest assured that close to 100% of the people there are packing. Guess what? Not a single incident. What a miracle, huh?
Look, Mari, I carry almost everywhere I can legally do so. Never had a problem. Guns don't discharge automatically. They don't discharge accidentally either. What do you think they have trigger guards for?
Almost every state in the union allows people to carry openly. A few require a license to do so. The majority allow people to openly carry without a license, including Washington, Oregon, Nevada, Montana, Idaho, Wyoming, Arizona, New Mexico, Colorado, South Dakota, Nebraska, Kansas, Louisiana, Missouri, Wisconsin, Michigan, Alabama, Kentucky, Ohio, North Carolina, Virginia, Pennsylvania, Delaware, Vermont, New Hampshire, and Maine. Oh, no! There's open carry almost everywhere you go! The sky is falling!
The problem here is that gun control advocates have some difficulty not shitting their pants whenever anyone says the word "gun". It is firearm-phobia. Therapists say the best way to conquer phobias is to gradually face your fears. So here's my advice, Mari. Buy a gun. Learn how to use it. And carry it on you everywhere you can legally do so.
Gun shows are safe? But before we get to that, let's look at some other stats.
We start with the number of gun accidents in the United States each year. The numbers are all over the place ranging from the 100,000 I cited in the Op to the 15,000 to 19000 reported by this guy in Huffpo:
"In 2007, the United States suffered some 15,000-19,000 accidental shootings. More than 600 of these shootings proved fatal. Is that "very rare"?
Of course there have not been any incidents in Come and Take Em rallies yet- there have only been a few of these rallies so far. Guns used by school employees? Same thing except we already two accidental discharges according to the NY Times:
" But a couple of recent episodes could leave some people unsettled about firearms in schools.
A maintenance worker at an East Texas school that plans to allow its staff to carry guns accidentally shot himself during firearms safety training last month. And a police officer assigned to patrol a high school in a town north of New York City after the Newtown shooting was suspended this week because he accidentally fired his gun in the hallway during school hours."
And gun shows are the worst of all Willy. You must have been snoozing when the media reported THREE GUN DISCHARGES at three gun shows in one day:
"Accidental shootings at gun shows in North Carolina, Indiana and Ohio left five people injured Saturday, the same day that thousands of gun advocates gathered peacefully at state capitals around the U.S. to rally against stricter firearm limits.
At the Dixie Gun and Knife Show in Raleigh, a 12-gauge shotgun discharged as its owner unzipped its case for a law enforcement officer to check at a security entrance, injuring three people, state Agriculture Department spokesman Brian Long said.
Two bystanders were hit by shotgun pellets and taken to a hospital. A retired deputy sheriff suffered a slight hand injury.
The shotgun's owner, 36-year-old Gary Lynn Wilson, brought the weapon to the show to find a private buyer, Long said. Sheriff Donnie Harrison said that it was too early to know whether Wilson might be charged but that it appeared to be an accident.
The North Carolina show, which is held at the state fairgrounds, is a quarterly event that usually draws thousands of people. The two-day show shut down early Saturday but will reopen Sunday.
In Indianapolis, police said a 54-year-old man was injured when he inadvertently shot himself while leaving a gun show.
Emory L. Cozee was loading his .45-caliber semi-automatic when he shot himself in the hand as he was leaving the Indy 1500 Gun and Knife show at the state fairgrounds, state police said. Loaded personal weapons aren't allowed inside the show.
Cozee, of Indianapolis, was hospitalized for treatment. Police say the shooting was accidental and no charges will be filed.
And in Ohio, a gun dealer in Medina was checking out a semi-automatic handgun he had bought Saturday when he accidentally pulled the trigger, injuring his friend, police said. The gun's magazine had been removed from the firearm, but one round remained in the chamber, police said."
So thanks for the invitation to DC gun show Willy but I'm planning to go camping in Russia that weekend near the Chernoble Nuclear Power Plant. Feel mush safer there
Consider that there are 300 million firearms in America today. The fact that there were 600 deaths from accidental shootings I'd classify that as very rare. There are 254.3 million registered cars and trucks in America and roughly 32,500 people die in accidents every year. SO how common are accidental shootings?
Take atv's or boats that aren't needed for transportation. 327 people died on atvs in 2011 there were roughly 30 million atvs registered that year. Ten times the death rate of firearms per atv.
Boats are almost as bad. 578 deaths for in 2012 for 12.5 million registered boats. Where is the outrage these products are by far worse than firearms...
http://www.nmma.org/news.aspx?id=18028
http://www.uscgboating.org/assets/1/workflow_staging/Page/705.PDF
that lead to my complaint:
1. You are grouping 200 armed people in a closed space; so the risk of harm is far greater than an isolated hunter in the woods who accidentally shoots himself; I think the gun show states are the best example much to poor Willy's dismay. There you likewise have a lot of armed people in a closed space. If you compare the accidental discharges with the number of people present, you will get a much higher percentage number.
2. There is no reason for these yahoos to have their guns loaded on the march. They can make the same point by marching with unloaded guns.
This is why I had to spank the lady who in good faith but without thinking used the bathroom injury example as a comparison. We always balance the magnitude of the risk with the likelihood of occurrence and the social utility of the conduct to determine policy. Here that balancing test shows these rallies are a really really bad idea.
Agree
I never said it was 100% practical or a great idea. One thing; the media portrays firearms in the worst possible light. If every person had bullets chambered (if you pulled the trigger with the safety off it'd shoot) its dangerous to some extent, but I don't believe every one of them had live firearms. Even having the safety on makes them very safe. One thing that's easily overlooked is most firearms owners know they own that bullet if it comes out of their gun. It's one reason I don't carry a concealed firearm every day. But it was legal and if nothing else made a point. National news coverage is always good right?
Lets be honest about our backgrounds. I grew up on a farm, my grandpa kept a loaded 12 ga shotgun near the house door for as long as I remember. I knew when I started to walk not to touch a gun. I had firearms safety and got my first gun at 8 yrs old. I've had firearms in my life for almost 40 yrs and never had an accident, never once had a gun fire on accident. If people respect the power of firearms, treat ever gun as if were loaded, always know your target and what's beyond it they can actually be very safe. Maybe we need to make firearms safety a requirement to purchase a firearm. With my background it shouldn't be a surprise that I feel the way I do. Most gun owners are responsible to be honest. The problem is the few that aren't can cause irreparable harm. But there are other things that can be similar, distracted driving is one of them and kills almost as many people in the US each yr.
There are many things that are bad ideas but because they are legal people can and will keep doing them. No matter how much we as a society try to eliminate natural selection it'll still happen.
1. You are grouping 200 armed people in a closed space; so the risk of harm is far greater than an isolated hunter in the woods who accidentally shoots himself; I think the gun show states are the best example much to poor Willy's dismay. There you likewise have a lot of armed people in a closed space. If you compare the accidental discharges with the number of people present, you will get a much higher percentage number.
2. There is no reason for these yahoos to have their guns loaded on the march. They can make the same point by marching with unloaded guns.
This is why I had to spank the lady who in good faith but without thinking used the bathroom injury example as a comparison. We always balance the magnitude of the risk with the likelihood of occurrence and the social utility of the conduct to determine policy. Here that balancing test shows these rallies are a really really bad idea.
Agree?
Is that the same as a community organizer being elected POTUS ?
Trash him for his choice of service.
If you got shot down in a massive sea battle would you tell your kid to join the Navy or Guard to fly Jets
I wasn't criticizing his choice of service, but that he couldn't cut it!
from Move on . Org is noway to go through life. His service records are there for the public to see unlike the SPs college transcripts .
As I've said before, I've never known an aviator to voluntarily give up his wings. S/he has them taken away! In his case he knew he couldn't pass the flight physical; we can only guess why. And, if you'll note, according to the article, a portion of his service records were destroyed.
-- Modified on 8/15/2013 7:21:55 AM
I don't have a problem with competent people carrying guns. Children carrying guns is chid endangerment
Ughh sum people r just plain stupid
Its legal for children as young as 8 to hunt with firearms in many states.
Not saying doing it in public at a march is smart but child endangerment?