I ask this totally without knowing the answer because I just can't think of it.
Is there any other event or holiday in the world that has such a great variety of really good music? (Grinches - See last sentence)
The jazz station is solid CHristmas music, and even if you don't like Christmas, you have to have a callous heart not to like Frank, Ella, Louis, and the rest of the crew and the music they made.
Likewise, it you divorce the lyrics from thinks like Messiah, is it possible not to like the music. The genres that have Christmas music are pretty unique in their variety.
As I have said many times, although I do not believe, myself, I like religion. But apart from religion, one thin I like about this time of year is the music.
(OKAY, HERE IS FOR THE STUPID ARGUMENT AGAINST. Yes, there are corny songs, but in any genre that has thousands and thousands and thousands of examples, there are bound to be some stupid ones. There are some movies that are totally rotten, but that doesn't denigrate the genre as a whole)
Christmas songs tend to be a bit sappy, and I don't care for most of it,
Now before YOU make the stupid leap that I dislike all Christmas music, let me clarify that I said "Most" and that's my honest opinion.
I don't dislike Christmas music because of my dislike of religion, truth be told there are many songs that border on Gospel that I quite enjoy, I don't have any problems disconnecting the lyrics from the music, "if" I like the music.
I will admit to enjoying some Christmas music in small doses, some of it is rather soothing, but I tire quickly of it, and I much prefer other music.
Christmas originated from people in the Northern Hemisphere celebrating the Winter Solstice. It is a celebration of the "undying sun", which will soon make it's triumphant return.
In other words, the days are really short, it's cold outside, things are depressing, so LET'S PARTY!
Simple answer, but it's true. So people do what they like to do. They drink, be merry, give each other gifts, and dance. To dance you gotta have music, so there you go.
Misery makes fertile ground for a lot of music. While religion certainly is a musical influence, I'd suspect that we'd have a ton of music this time of year regardless.
I find most Christmas tunes annoying. Jingles that get stuck in your head generally are. But nothing beats the Nut Cracker Suit from Tchaikovsky.
When Tchaikovsky was writing the Nutcracker a new instrument had been invented. It was a piano type instrument that used metal plates struck by hammers instead of strings. The inventor thought the instrument sounded heavenly, and so he named it the Celesta. Tchaikovsky begged the inventor to keep his invention a secret until he could premere the Nutcracker Suite, and the rest is history. The Celesta takes center stage on The Dance of the Sugar Plum Fairy.
-- Modified on 12/24/2010 10:27:39 AM
-- Modified on 12/25/2010 10:33:16 PM
First, Christmas music is enjoyed south of the equator in December when it isn't cold and miserable. Hey, I live in L.A., where White Christmas was composed. If it just the Winter Solstice, you got a lot a splaining to do about why it is also popular in warmer climes, Lucy.
They have cold months in Argentina in June and July, but there is not the huge body of music. If you theory is that the cold spurs the musical creations, it doesn't hold up. (Also, in cold, miserable parts of Korea - north and south - or a dozen other countries with similar conditions, there is not a huge body of fun music that has conquored the world. If is just warming up in the cold, something's missing.
Second you have to ignore a huge body of music to say imply (I said imply, which is a fair paraphrase) it is jingles. You like classical. How many compositions are there associated with this time. And I think it is demeaning to the artists I mentioned to dismiss it as "jingles."
Some songs may be fun. Some songs may be "novelty" numberfs. But Louis singing "Is that you, Santa Clause" or Pearl singing "A Five Pound Box of Money," are not "jingles." (A lot of fun, even silly, songs can still be great music.)
In other words, the days are really short, it's cold outside, things are depressing, so LET'S PARTY!
Simple answer, but it's true. So people do what they like to do. They drink, be merry, give each other gifts, and dance. To dance you gotta have music, so there you go.
Misery makes fertile ground for a lot of music. While religion certainly is a musical influence, I'd suspect that we'd have a ton of music this time of year regardless.
I find most Christmas tunes annoying. Jingles that get stuck in your head generally are. But nothing beats the Nut Cracker Suit from Tchaikovsky.
When Tchaikovsky was writing the Nutcracker a new instrument had been invented. It was a piano type instrument that used metal plates struck by hammers instead of strings. The inventor thought the instrument sounded heavenly, and so he named it the Celesta. Tchaikovsky begged the inventor to keep his invention a secret until he could premere the Nutcracker Suite, and the rest is history. The Celesta takes center stage on The Dance of the Sugar Plum Fairy.
"They have cold months in Argentina in June and July, but there is not the huge body of music. If you theory is that the cold spurs the musical creations, it doesn't hold up."
Yes, Christmas is celebrated south of the equator. Or at least I assume it does. Of course, the custom of celebrating Christmas originated in the Northern Hemisphere for reasons I've already explained. However, when people from the Northern Hemisphere took that celebration with them when they colonized lands south of the equator.
In summary, your theory is that the cold brings out the Christmas in people. (That is a 12 word paraphrase, must a summary, not intended to be a full quote.)
It doesn't matter if this holiday originated in the Northern Climes. If it is that chill factor, then the popularity would not be as contageous in areas where it is warm in December. There would not be the need that spurred the holiday. Many of those areas are very secular, even in nominal Catholic.
Also customs of every type change. But for some magic reason, people move from England to New Zealand, and retain the need to do in December what they ancestors did 6 generations ago, and yet they never develop the alternate holiday when it is actually cold there.
Also, if your theory is that the cold prompts this type of event, then in "non-Christian" areas where there is cold, there would be similar things with non-Christmas themes. But that didn't happen. Again, Korea is very cold. Parts of China are very cold. If cold prompts this type of thing, there should have been SOMETHING similar.
Finally, my OP was talking about the variety. Even in colder climates at other cold times, they don't have this out burst of creativity.
You explain phenomenon by the presence of certain conditions, but don't explain why it persists when those conditions disappear. You explain it by the presence of certain conditinos, but don't explain why it NEVER occurred under identical conditions.
In short, you have a theory that is a nice opinon, but when tested does not hold up. Bad science.
Yes, Christmas is celebrated south of the equator. Or at least I assume it does. Of course, the custom of celebrating Christmas originated in the Northern Hemisphere for reasons I've already explained. However, when people from the Northern Hemisphere took that celebration with them when they colonized lands south of the equator.
In Vermont there is a 20 acre amphitheatre built by Native Americans before Columbus sailed the high seas. In the center is a stone structure with a stone bowl in the center. The bowl has notches in it, which marks the placement of the sun at the winter solstice. Below a picture is attached of the entrance of the stone structure.
"In short, you have a theory that is a nice opinon, but when tested does not hold up. Bad science."
You're funny Phil.
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I am sorry if you didn't like my summary. I am not going to cut and paste, but I think it is fairly accurate for a summary. You were attributing Christmas to certain conditons.
I am not saying Christmas is as popular in India as the U.S. Since I didn't say that I won't defend it. This is the put words in my mouth. I did say it is popular in Mexico, Argentina, and a dozen other nations that are warm when they are celebrating it. If is the chill factor that brings out the energy, then the big festival in Argentina or New Zealand would be in July.
Customs change, and you aren't surprised tha N. Zealand maintained it because it is Christian. But the colonies abandoned other traits from the northern colonists. The staunch New Englanders in Hawaii begat a generation that can't tie a neck tie. New Zealand dropped and/or modified alot of customs.
If it is the cold that prompts it, it is funny how they didn't modify that custom after 100 years of warmth.
If it is the cold, then cold-induced symptoms would wane in warm Decembers and shift to cold Julys. Is that really too hard to understand? They could be Christian and focus all that pent up cold-induced energy in developing Easter as the big Holiday. Christams wasn't always the big deal it is now. In fact in the COLD New England, the pilgrims downplayed it very much. Chirstmas was not the holiday it is today. Somehow the cold Christians didn't feel your need to jump and shout.
You bring up Saturnalia as a response to my question of why doesn't the cold prompt it in other areas.
If you go back to my original question, it was why does Christmas prompt such an out burst of songs that cover every genre and are so wide spread.
I hate of offend people who celebrate[d] Saturnalia,but I don't think it really gave birth to the type of thing I was describing. Likewise, Amaterasu or the Dongzhì Festival haven't done that. I have heard Christmas songs in Japan and Korea, but outside of Japanese or Chinese areas of cities,I don't think those are the same phenomona.
If I am wrong, please point me to the Great Song Book of Amaterasu music. And of course, the variety of Dongzhi musical genres is noted world wide. (NOT) You really had to look to find these three that compare to Christmas in variety of music. The same goes for Lenaea. Do you really think the ritual you describe has the variety of creativity the was discussed in the OP.
If you think ripping someone apart is as creative as 1,000 songs and God knows how many classical pieces, well we just hit the point where I can't dispute your opinion. I just don't think it is what I was talking about.
None of the other things you mentioned have a similar thing. I did not say that winter doesn't prompt some ceremonies. You had to to a major distortion. But again, do you really think the Hopi ceremony you refer to has the variety and universal appeal?
I will pharse it this way: Of the universe of winter holidays, is there any that has the variety in types of musical genres, the number of pieces, and the wide spread appeal as Christmas. (TO clarify: "Wide spread" means appeal outside the culture of origin. You can hear "Silent Night" in Okinama. Can you hear "It came upon an Amaterasu Clear" in Detroit?
You're my man.
You keep fighting no matter how badly you are losing, I'll give you credit for that.
I have no intention of entering this "debate" but as an interested observer, I have to tell you. Willy is kicking your ass on this one. Your arguements are getting weaker and weaker, but I'll give you credit, it hasn't slowed you down. lmao
You like Chirstmas music. Fine, why don't you leave it at that? Many of us don't share your opinion, get over it.
I certainly hope that you aren't going to claim that December 25 was actually the birth date of the "Baby Jesus", and that's why we celebrate that day.
Take my advice and cut your losses, any idiot knows that Christmas is celebrated in the Southern Hemisphere because it was exported there by European colonists. Or are you really that bored and you're honing your debating skills by taking the losing side of the arguement just to see if you can win, despite the evidence?
It isn't whether I like Christmas music. Regardless of anyone's opinion of it, I really don't think it is deniable that it has generated a tremendous volume of music (and ard) that is rather unusual, if not unique. My original question was is there anything similar.
He strayed into winter prompts celebrations, which does not really address the issue I raised of why THIS PARTICULAR celebration created this variety. He jumps into Hopi winter festivals that are so minor the Zunis don't bother with them.
People in the southern hemisphere have anandoned lots of cultural artifacts of their frozen norther ancestors, so to just say, "Well, Gramp's grandfather did it." is a little shallow.
And even that avoids the question. It wasn't why is Christmas celebrated there. It was why is there that variety.
Everything else is a side issue. If he wants to answer the question there are two possible answers: 1) "No. No other institution has created a similar range of music for one event." or 2) "Yes, the Octoranian natives in Quelquilquan have a holiday that has spurred a series of musical genres and it covers classical, jazz, country, Klezmer, folk, rock, and hip hop."
Anything else is dancing around the question, and I greatly admire people's ability to dance that way.
...is that Christmas is just another Winter Solstice celebration. Christians just co-opted some Pagan traditions.
When you get down to it, it really is a mutant of a holiday. I mean, what does a Turkish patron saint of Children have to do with the birth of the baby Jesus? What does evergreen trees have to do with Bethlehem if they're not even native to that part of the world?
Different cultures adopted the Winter Solstice celebration to their own customs. That's what makes it so appealing.
As to your question on it's celebration in the Southern Hemisphere, if religion is good at anything, it's good at carrying on tradition.
I will concede it is just another solstice celebration, at least for the sake of argument. I know the co-opted pagan traditions. It is not a secret that Dickens was not around in 30 A.D. However, that still avoids the question origianally presented.
Let me try it this way: Of all the Winter Solstice celebrations - and I am not sure when that became capitalized - are there any other WinSols, if I may coin a phrase. in the world that produced the variety of musical genres celebrating the glory of Saturn or Sol or the Blue Druid or the Mud Kachina or anything else? A billion people in China, millions who migrated to the U.S. Is there anything comparable. (NOT TO A HOLIDAY. THAT WAS NOT MY QUESTION.)
(How about this: a song about a Mud Kachina that melts away when the rains come to the South West and fertilize the arid soil. "Muddy, Kachina Boy, was as dirty as he could be. With a feather cap and a snake skin belt, he's as Hopi as he can be." Okay, I am not a great composer,)
Again, to phrase it using your criteria: Of the current WinSol festivals that are still celebrated, have any produced music is so many genres that have such a universal appeal?
You can distract with Turkish saints and evergreen trees, but that just adds to my point of the variety of genres and styles.
(Hey. I live in Southern Cal. For years I have been saying we should decortate the palm trees. I had a lit up Christmas Cactus a few years ago)
That was my question. All else is not an answer.
When you get down to it, it really is a mutant of a holiday. I mean, what does a Turkish patron saint of Children have to do with the birth of the baby Jesus? What does evergreen trees have to do with Bethlehem if they're not even native to that part of the world?
Different cultures adopted the Winter Solstice celebration to their own customs. That's what makes it so appealing.
As to your question on it's celebration in the Southern Hemisphere, if religion is good at anything, it's good at carrying on tradition.
"why did our culture, and other related Western cultures, produce so much holiday-related music?"
Is that fair?
Western peoples have long been the wealthiest on the planet. More wealth, more leisure. More leisure, more time can be used at creative or artistic endeavors.
The other answer, which I think may be just as viable, is that as we are emersed in Western culture, we're unaware of the music of other cultures.
The question was the variety and and the spread. As I said, you can hear Christmas carols in Tokyo and Mumbai.
Likewise, the "wealthiest" being able to engage in more leisure more art, doesn't answer the specific question. Why our WinSol and not The Return of the Holy Rabbit?
And it still avoids the question of why WinSol, as opposed to Bunny Time? IT is not unique to our culture. As I started out, it is unique to our WinSol.
Finally, we are not as immersedonly in our own culture as you describe. I live in Little Armenia, on the edge of Thai Town. I pass through Little Tokyo a couple times a week, skrit China Town, and lord knows how much Hispanic I see from I don't know how many countries and states of Mexico. I was just at a Christmas party iwth a girl from Finland, a guy from York, and a couple from Rome.
My fav sign is a mortuary on Sunset with the names of the partners, a Hispanic, a Jewish, and a Chinese name. Only in L.A. or N.Y.
One of the main reasons I put up with the hassles of urban living is that mix of here, there, and everywhere.
(I would say that someone who lives in an urban area in the U.S. has to be more exposed to other cultures than any place on earth except the halls of the U.S.)
Is that fair?
Western peoples have long been the wealthiest on the planet. More wealth, more leisure. More leisure, more time can be used at creative or artistic endeavors.
The other answer, which I think may be just as viable, is that as we are emersed in Western culture, we're unaware of the music of other cultures.
And it still avoids the question of why WinSol, as opposed to Bunny Time? IT is not unique to our culture. As I started out, it is unique to our WinSol.
Finally, we are not as immersedonly in our own culture as you describe. I live in Little Armenia, on the edge of Thai Town. I pass through Little Tokyo a couple times a week, skrit China Town, and lord knows how much Hispanic I see from I don't know how many countries and states of Mexico. I was just at a Christmas party iwth a girl from Finland, a guy from York, and a couple from Rome.
Holy Rabbit is the big festival of the Christian Church in the spring, around the time of Passover. The Holy Rabbit comes from the figure that brought chololate to the manger. I do not know how you could have missed the Rabbit appearing all over the place at that time. I think it also involves someone coming back. Now, am I versed in religion?
PS. I want to clarify one other thing. I don't have a particular dog in the fight over Christmas since, 1) I am not Christian; 2) I am not religious, and 3) as for holidays themselves my fav is Thanksgiving, even though I am always on a diet and haven't had pie in 20 years.
In fact, my "religion" forbid me from entering placed of worship except artistic, archetectural, or historical interest, or when friends are being married or buried, and, sadly, as I age, it is more often the second.
And it still avoids the question of why WinSol, as opposed to Bunny Time? IT is not unique to our culture. As I started out, it is unique to our WinSol.
Finally, we are not as immersedonly in our own culture as you describe. I live in Little Armenia, on the edge of Thai Town. I pass through Little Tokyo a couple times a week, skrit China Town, and lord knows how much Hispanic I see from I don't know how many countries and states of Mexico. I was just at a Christmas party iwth a girl from Finland, a guy from York, and a couple from Rome.
My original post was asking, "Is there any other event or holiday in the world that has such a great variety of really good music?"
I may be ignorant, as you suggest, but I will just say that I don't think the holidays you mentioned - Amaterasu to Dongzhì Festival to Lenaea or to the Hopis - really compare in scope and variety. If it is just cold bringing out the holiday, then why aren't these holidays comparable. There are a billion Chinese in China alone. What happened to the Great Chinese Music of Dongzhi.
To be clear, since words are often put in my mouth, I am not saying Christmas is superior. Indeed, that would be a funny position for me to take, since I am not Christian.
I was asking is there another holiday that spurs that huge variety of music with such wide spead appeal as music. And, no, even in L.A. with a large Chinese population, Dongzhi carols are seldom heard, unlike Christmas carols, which you can hear in Chinatown or Little Tokyo.
Lets face it Chinese music is not very popular outside of China, frankly I can't stand most music from Asia. Nor is music from Africa very popular, again "of any type".
It's just a fact that music from Europe, North America, and recently South America are the only ones that see to be successfuly exported from their countries of origin.
When was the last time you saw someoe of other than Asian or African origins humming an Asian or African song? I doubt one in ten Americans can even think of an African of Asia song. I don't think I can, and I am of asian descent.
BTW having dated many Korean, Chinese, Vietnamese etal women over the years. I have had plenty of exposure to Asian music, mainly in karaoke bars, and I have to confess, I don't think there is going to be an "Asian invasion" of music. lol
I have heard Gershwin on the Nile, rock in Moscow and Damascus, country in Buenos Aires.
But that doesn't answer my initial question. Yes, western music has become "universal." But there isn't the variety of Easter songs or 4th of July songs.
...and plus we have a very strong and varied culture. American music, of all genres are popular around the world for the same reason that American movies are popular around the world. Nothing else beats it.
sometimes you surprise me Willy.
Just not a nationalist. Keeping the two separate isn't always easy, ya know?
me and the Mrs. can agree on because of our age differences.
She and I can really cum together over Tchaikovsky. Also Vivaldi
...humor (Bob Hope & 'Fred Mertz') and beauty (Marilyn Maxwell).
Is what you post! There is no god. Just let me listen to the sound of silence because the music of christmas is the sound of capitalist hypocrisy no matter how good it might sound.
I didn't mention god, so I don't know why you have to switch subjects.
My post was about the variety of Christmas music. You may not like it. You may think it is capitists making money of idiots. You may think it is silly. That is fine. Your opinion is as valid or as dumb as anyones.
But the fact remainst that there is this huge body of music that appears to be unique in size and scope. From classical to country to pop to rock to jazz and so on.
You may not like the lights people put up, but they still exist.
You may not like Christmas music, but it exists in unique variety.
Because it is unique, it is worth noting.
Why it is drivel is not explained. It's like ass facts. You say use the label, but never justify it.
Bark, Bark, Bark. And Merry Christmas. (From a non-believer)