Why should we bother trying to prove your statements false. If you are going to make these claims then the burden of proof is on you to back them up, not on us to disprove them.
This is one of the oldest tricks in the book and a really lame one at that. The reson you attempt to put the burden on others is because you can not back up your own arguments.
BTW, your statements are wrong.
A Great Man has passed...
Its been raining all day here in DC. Now I know why. Truly a sad day.
Saturday at 1pm, Former President Ronald Reagan passed away. 40th president of the United States, died today at his home in California. He was 93 years old and had been suffering from Alzheimer's disease.
One of the greatest Presidents this country has ever and will ever see. May your soul rest in peace President Regan, the entire nation mourns your loss.... and you will always be remembered as the president who brought us through one of the toughest times. Goodbye and God Bless
Click the link below for the News Story of President Reagan
he raised my taxes from 26% to 28% and I lost the ability to write off consumer insterest. Since 1996 75% of all big corporations haven't paid any taxes.
So I don't consider him a great man. He was just representing (like Bush) big corporations.
of the end of what America used to stand for".
Kicking people(vets included) out of mental hospitals who needed continued care and having them live on the street. When I was growing up, the only(probably 95+%) homeless were people that wanted to drop out of society and were most likely alkies. They usually hung out downtown near the rescue missions. Today, we have
more homeless than ever before (including whole families) because of cuts in programs that use to help the less fortunate. Most of today's homeless are in this position not out of choice, but because we have lost compassion for the unfortunate. And this administration is continueing this disrespect towards others on a much larger scale.
Making a deal with Iran to release our hostages AFTER the election in exchane for illegal arms sales. He tried and succeeded in fixing the 1980 election by making Carter look like he was incapable of freeing the hostages. Pretty tough on Carter when the hostage crisis turns out to be a fixed game.
And as far as ending the Cold War, Russia folded because we bankrupted them by making them build too many nuclear weapons to compete with our buildup.
I have stated my opinions and what I consider to be the facts of history. You posters who disagree with me should have no trouble proving my statements are false and why they are not true.
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Why should we bother trying to prove your statements false. If you are going to make these claims then the burden of proof is on you to back them up, not on us to disprove them.
This is one of the oldest tricks in the book and a really lame one at that. The reson you attempt to put the burden on others is because you can not back up your own arguments.
BTW, your statements are wrong.
A Great Man has passed...
statements. BTW: Your second paragraph is the equivalent of " the kettle calling the pot black". Has Bush really backed up many of his outlandish claims in the 75% of his ads that are negative. I am still waiting to read where Kerry proposed a 50 cent gas tax in Congress. Talking to a reporter and the insinuation of proposed legislation are 2 totally different things. Could you please show me the legislation he proposed to increase the gas taxes by 50 cents.
Thanks in advance for finding the Kerry legislation and letting me know which fallacies I have propogated. I look forward to your response.
You have stated not facts, but your interpretation of facts.
It's called "spin".
It is not incumbent upon anyone to clear up any misconceptions you may have.
BK
in their posts. Here are my facts, in the order I stated them.
1. Kicking the mentally ill and veterans out of care facilities
before they were cured.
http://www.sociology.org/content/vol003.004/thomas.html
Here are 3 relavent paragraphs from the article:
Combined with a sharp rise in homelessness during the 1980s, Ronald Reagan pursued a policy toward the treatment of mental illness that satisfied special interest groups and the demands of the business community, but failed to address the issue: the treatment of mental illness
The new emphasis was on "supply side" economics, which essentially "blamed the nation's ills on 'big government' and called for lower taxes, reduced federal spending (military exempted), fewer government regulations, and more private sector initiatives " (Abramovitz, 1992, 101). Thus, to effect a change in the political economy, Reagan was able to win major concessions regarding social policy that continue today. By taking away the safety net, the working class was effectively neutralized: workers no lo nger had the freedom to strike against their employers or depend upon the social welfare system as a means of living until finding employment. Business was thus free to lower wages, benefits, and the length of contracts. The overall result was that the av erage income for the average American dropped even as the average number of hours at work increased (Barlett and Steele, 1996; Schor, 1992).
Reagan's social policy is best seen as an abdication. Reagan's economic policy was to adjust government regulation so that it favored business once again, and social policy was merely an outgrowth of this larger issue. While family groups and professi onal groups and patient groups did clamor for respect, the real struggle was between the state and the business community. Reagan worked to lessen the tax load for the rich, and the social policies were meant to match this goal. Business needed a more fav orable corporate climate, and Reagan worked to that end. The coalitions that were necessary for election were either gratified (the elderly) or abandoned (the poor). As for the mentally ill, certain changes that their families and practitioners wanted wer e gained, and the administration pointed this out. Even though these changes came about primarily through state governments and the courts, the Administration would take credit. All in all, business interests were served. Families and doctors were appease d. Patients were forgotten
The emphasis is on "involuntary commitment", but as the article states, it applies to all mentally ill patients.
Iran-Contra in next post.
Here is the title and table of contents.
http://www.fas.org/irp/offdocs/walsh/
InPart II: History of Investigation here is the concluding paragraph:
Independent Counsel's decision to pursue the investigation beyond the Poindexter trial resulted in these major findings:
-- that there was extensive knowledge of North's contra-support activities by high-ranking officials in the CIA, State and Defense departments;
-- that false testimony was given to and highly relevant documents were withheld from the congressional and criminal Iran/contra investigations, despite representations of cooperation by the Reagan and Bush Administrations; (may I add that this seems to being perpetrated by the current Republic Administration. Just an opinion)
-- that, contrary to their testimony, Bush, Shultz and Weinberger were kept informed of the details of the Iran arms sales; and
-- that senior Administration officials in November 1986 were being invited to conceal President Reagan's involvement in the November 1985 HAWK missile shipment to Iran by Attorney General Meese who believed that it was possibly illegal.
At the bottom of the page is Part XI: Concluding observations
So their are no excuses about the conclusions not being found, here is the link to Part XI
http://www.fas.org/irp/offdocs/walsh/part_xi.htm
Here is the first paragraph; the rest of the chapter is just as interesting in getting to the truth:
The underlying facts of Iran/contra are that, regardless of criminality, President Reagan, the secretary of state, the secretary of defense, and the director of central intelligence and their necessary assistants committed themselves, however reluctantly, to two programs contrary to congressional policy and contrary to national policy. They skirted the law, some of them broke the law, and almost all of them tried to cover up the President's willful activities.
About Reagan negotiating with Iran for the release of hostages
AFTER the election.
http://www.consortiumnews.com/archive/xfile.html
The following is a brief explanation of why it's called "The October Surprise.
Encyclopedia: October Surprise
Sponsored links:
October Surprise is the allegation that representatives of the 1980 Ronald Reagan presidential campaign arranged the Iran-Contra deal well in advance of the 1980 election where Ronald Reagan defeated Jimmy Carter. October Surprise is also the title of a book on the subject by Gary Sick. This usage of the term describes a situation where a Presidential incumbent uses his office to do something very popular at the last minute before election day, to increase his chances of getting reelected. Thus the alleged conspiracy was precisely to prevent an "October Surprise" that would have aided Carter, the incumbent, effected by postponing the release of the hostages held by Iran until after the election.
The allegations are not vague. They allege that representatives of the Reagan presidential campaign made a deal at two sets of meetings in July and August at the Ritz Hotel in Madrid with Iranians to delay the release of Americans held hostage in Iran until after the November 1980 presidential elections, so that Reagan's opponent, then President Jimmy Carter, whose team had been negotiating, wouldn't gain a popularity boost (an 'October Surprise') before election day. The allegations included a date-specific allegation that William Casey met with an Iranian cleric in Madrid, Spain, and much of the tardy investigations centered on whether, at the weekend in question he was actually at Bohemian Grove retreat in California. Though William Casey was provably in London following the alleged meetings, critical pages of his daybook diary were unaccountably missing when the investigators came to look for them over a decade later.
Carter was at the time dealing with the Iran hostage crisis and the hostile regime of the Ayatollah Khomeini. Those who aver that a deal was made allege that certain Republicans with CIA connections, including George H. W. Bush, arranged to have the hostages held through October, until Reagan could defeat Carter in early November, and then be released. The hostages were in fact released on the very day of Reagan's inauguration, twenty minutes after his inaugral address. If the timing was a double-cross that was meant to tip off the American public to the game, it failed to elicit much commentary.
Two months earlier, in a campaigning interview Ronald Reagan had said that he had a "secret plan" involving the hostages. "My ideas require quiet diplomacy," he had responded when pressed, "where you don't have to say what it is you're thinking of doing." A 1981 Congressional probe into the Reagan campaign's theft of White House briefing books on the eve of a presidential debate disclosed that Reagan campaign manager William Casey (later CIA chief), was receiving highly classified reports on closely held Carter administration intelligence on the Carter campaign and the Democratic president's efforts to liberate the hostages.
A Public Broadcasting System's 'Frontline' documentary in 1990 brought the story unavoidably to the surface in considerable detail. In 1991, while playing golf with George Bush in Palm Springs, Ronald Reagan gave reporters a sound bite. In 1980, he had "tried some things the other way," that is, to free the hostages, he told them. When pressed he said that the details remained "classified." Separate House and Senate investigations were further delayed until 1992 however, by which time the trail was safely cold. William Casey, the alleged go-between, was dead by then, and it seemed impossible to account for all his moves during the summer of 1980, when he is said to have conferred with agents representing the Ayatollah Khomeini's government.
If this is how events happened, some believe that dealing with a hostile foreign government to achieve the defeat of a domestic administration would have been an act of treason.
According to Sick's analysis, Oliver North was more or less a fall guy, taking the responsibility in order to conceal the treason of Reagan and Bush.
The adress for this link is:
http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/October-Surprise
Thats 2 out of 3. I will discuss my statements on the fall of the Soviet Union tomorrow.
Again, BK and JB, will you PLEASE direct me to the Kerry legislation proposing a 50 cent gas tax increase!
I can also debunk the Bush claim that Kerry flip-flopped on supporting our troops in Iraq(seriously) once you get me the Kerry legislation.
""October Surprise is the allegation that representatives of the 1980 Ronald Reagan presidential campaign arranged the Iran-Contra deal well in advance of the 1980 election where Ronald Reagan defeated Jimmy Carter.""
Your source calls these "allegations".
and if you had read the whole article I linked to, you would see that there are a few too many "coincidences" to refute it entirely. I think the article has more "facts" that the "facts" about the reasons we went to war. Where are all those WMD's that were going to destroy us and made Iraq an imminent threat to the United States?
You stated as FACT that Reagan committed an act that is tantamount to treason. You provided a link that refered to those charges as "allegations". Irregardless of the number of peripherial "facts" you use to build your case. Those "facts" do not make your underlying accusation a "Fact".
This is my whole point..
subverted congressional and national policy? Thats a start.
Reagan spent so much on defense that deficits went up....He fired all the striking air traffic controllers in the early 80's....And on social issues, appointed Scalia to high court & tried to appoint Bork....Spent considerable tax dollars to have Ed Meese lead a commission to report on the porn industry in the mid 80's, for what reason?......
What the U.S. endured under Reagan's "leadership":
1) Sky-high interest rates
2) Double-digit unemployment
3) Exploding budget deficits & national debt, which we are still paying for today. (The budget deficits created by RR & Bush 1 were eliminated by Clinton, but seeing that was too much of a good thing, were brought back to record levels by Dubya.)
4) Recession (a recurring theme with Republican presidents)
5) Iran-contra (the word "treason" comes to mind)
6) To counteract the Democrats' so-called "tax & spend" philosophy, Reagan implemented a "no tax & still spend" policy.
7) "Trickle down" economics (the only thing trickling down was the pee down his leg). Nothing "trickled down" to my family because of "Reaganomics".
8) A conservative morality which still grips this country today.
In addition:
1) Reagan was first & foremost an ACTOR!!! He was successful in fooling the majority of American people in his ability to lead the country. Popularity isn't correlated with leadership ability. Feel free to give him an Academy Award for his performance of a lifetime, but I won't do so. He didn't fool me one bit.
2) Although not "officially" diagnosed until he left office, Reagan was already senile & suffering from Alzheimer's while in office, and there's no way anyone could convince me otherwise. (Remember Iran-contra? he didn't.)
3) There are morons in Congress who are actually trying to get Reagan put on the dime. You can't even begin to compare the "legacy" of Reagan to FDR, a man who actually did something for this country, namely creating programs & policies to bring the U.S. out of the Great Depression, the worst economic period in our history. (Sidebar: when did the Great Depression start? 1929. Who was in office at the time: Herbert Hoover, a REPUBLICAN; what a coincidence. What did Hoover do to try to end it? Nothing. Why? He had no clue; he was a REPUBLICAN.)
Let's not forget we might be speaking German or Japanese today if it weren't for FDR. I hardly think we would be speaking Russian today if it weren't for Reagan. (Real world Russian, not TER "Russian".) Reagan did not bring down the Communist Bloc; the Communist Bloc brought down the Communist Bloc.
"Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall" doesn't even remotely compare to "A day which will live in infamy" or "We have nothing to fear but fear itself".
(BTW, do you think Reagan ever spoke TER "Russian"? I think not.)
I will agree it is sad to see a former president pass away. I'll admit I was a bit sad when Nixon died, and he was probably the most crooked president this country has ever seen. Just because a man was president doesn't necessarily make him a great man. Nixon was not a great man, and neither was Reagan. It's time the people of the U.S. look at the facts and not the facade surrounding Reagan, because the "legacy" of Reagan now is just that: a facade.
Yes, a president has passed, but not a "great man".
KCSHYGUY
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