I feel most providers are not accepting of references from provider with only a phone number and if you are using an agency gal for a reference do not hold your breath on her or her agency responding.
I no longer accept references mainly because of the amount of time I wasted chasing down the original provider. If the provider *does* accept references, here is the basics you need to do for it to go smoothly:
Contact the original provider. Give her a heads up as to who will be contacting her. Confirm she is OK being a reference. When you are contacting the provider that you wish to see give as much info as you have. Date, time, location, duration, etc. so your information can easily be located. If the provider you wish to see wants two references, give two COMPLETE references. Sending a provider a laundry list of 20 providers you have ever seen is silly and unproductive. I am not aware of any providers that will accept references over a year old, so if you don't have any or they are old just tell her. "I saw a gal down in Milwaukee like 5 or 6 years ago and I think she went by Kayla" s not a valid reference.
Providers and clients, please add anything I missed. Thanks!!
References are time consuming. The majority of the time it’s lots of back and forth it’s a headache. I don’t require references. The best way to get a referral is send a token of appreciation. I don’t care if you’re a client, or provider who relies on references it’s nice to realize this is not a free service. I would never recommend relying on references, especially from people you don’t know personally. Send a giftcard with all the information needed to verify if you want a referral ASAP.
Savvy businesswoman.
worked for me in one form or another for many years. I usually give additional cash as I'm leaving for the reference, but some have said they also accept gift cards. Unlike the cheap guys here (some of whom have already raised their hands), I know how much work it is for the back and forth and know it's well worth the show of appreciation to have a provider give the ref promptly and correctly. No one is entitled to OTC time after the session unless it is offered voluntarily by the provider.
....via gift card. I want to make sure it's worth their while to do the work.
eliminates the trouble the cheap-asses have when trying to get a ref for free. Because she is not being compensated for the ref, there is no priority given to it, and things go South when you have a cheap monger like the outraged chap below texting or emailing her about getting busy on the ref he asked for when she has paying customers who are compensating her for her time. All of that is avoided by making the ref request an ancillary transaction to the session you had with her. It's common sense, whereas the cheap-ass way is the opposite . . . . uncommon nonsense. Lol
I feel most providers are not accepting of references from provider with only a phone number and if you are using an agency gal for a reference do not hold your breath on her or her agency responding.
I usually am hesitant to accept references from agency providers for this exact reason. In my experience, independent providers usually respond, but it may take awhile due to reasons Paige and Scarlett have stated. So this can cause a gentleman to not be accepted for a date in time. To prevent this, I only accept references with an additional screening option.
I tend to question the legitimacy of providers who only have a phone number, so I also only accept references from providers I can verify in at least two ways (website, ad(s) from verified platforms, longstanding active social media, reviews on verified platforms).
I’ve been meeting new gals and using references quite a bit lately. I always contact the gals who I ask to be references and don’t share their contact info until I get a positive reply. I try not to go back more than six months. Some gals who’ve been repeated references but I haven’t seen lately I send a thoughtful gift card for appreciation. I always share their email, website, and twitter link. If they have P411 profile I share that too tho I don’t know if it’s truly helpful. If you treat it like you’re trying to confirm a business or executive meeting you’re gonna get much better results.
DING!! DING!!! We have a winner here!!! You are doing everything correctly!!!
My boundaries are simple: you can use me as a reference twice within 6–8 months of a booking, but you must tell me in advance (helps if I’m traveling so I’m on the lookout) and I need to know exactly who will receive the info. I’ve had girlfriends and wives pose as providers. So no, I’m not sending your details into the void because you “think” it’s safe.
Here’s the thing: I want us all to win. I want us all to eat. I want us all to live our best lives. I don’t see other providers as competition because we’re all different. I’m not scared of “losing” a client. If I can help him have an incredible time with someone else, I’ll do it. Because when a man has a fantastic date, it raises the standard for everyone.
That’s why my references aren’t just “he’s fine.” I break them down:
• Physical: What you’ll see at the door, hygiene, and any prep you’ll thank me for later.
• Personality: How he communicates, whether he’s a talker or a “get right to it” type, intimacy vs. just physical.
• Performance: His preferences, stamina, pace. What made the time memorable (or… what you might need to manage).
And a bit more personal on my end: an urgent request for a reference on your end does not make it an emergency on mine. If I am on tour or in an extended booking, I am not stepping out to answer your “time-sensitive” request. I didn't do that to you, so why would I do that to someone else. Use alternate screening or plan ahead. We all benefit when we respect each other’s time.
If you’re a gentleman who values efficiency, clarity, and making the best first impression, I created a complimentary Gentleman’s Guide to Booking that's been very popular. Short, discreet, and designed to save you and your next provider time.
Because at the end of the day… it’s a date, not a house fire. If we want to raise the bar in this industry, we treat screening like the foundation of our business... not the afterthought we get around to once the panties hit the floor.
The more thoroughly ladies screen, the safer we keep ourselves and therefore, our play partners.
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I share similar information regarding the gent with an inquiring provider - once I've screened her - because yes, without a verifiable and reputable presence in the industry, I'm not about to share private musings or info that could be misconstrued as incriminating (because everything we do here is legal 'fantasy' anyway😂). Toward that end, I always include links to my P411 and TER when asking for a reference.
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I'm thankful to the gents who understand the value of a solid screening process and don't phuff about it🙏🏼
Dear Paige,
Wow, what an awesome writer you are!! On the Tryst ad, on your own website, your posts here, I could read everything just to savor the prose!
Absolutely loved this line: “Oxford Dictionary in the streets, Urban Dictionary in the sheets.”
You really know how to appeal to us Word-People! And your pix, well, they exceed the "thousand words" every time.
Just wanted you to know your communication style is terribly sexy all by itself!
-Ricki
Some women do NOT want to be tipped off when you give their name as a reference. Most girls do, some do not. For the ones that don't, they tell me it just cuts down on their emails so I get it. My advice to guys is to follow that particulars girls wishes when using her as a reference.
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I also do not send date, time, location, duration etc i.e. none of that, but I also tend to use references that are very fresh (i.e. I just recently saw them) so those details aren't needed by the girl I want to see. I have never had an issue.
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What I also tend to do is send 3 refs, even if she is asking for just two, in case one of my refs in on vacay, slow to respond etc etc etc. That saves the girl I want to see from having to hit me up and ask for another reference as she already has it from me. That cuts down on time to verify me as well.
Yes, you should always follow the requests of the provider, but I honestly have never heard of a provider that does not want to know you are going to be using them as a reference. I follow the same logic as Paige does above. We do not know if it is an actual provider that is contacting us for info on a gent or if it is a disgruntled wife/gf trying to get dirt. If I get a reference request out of the blue from a random "provider" asking for info on a gent I have seen the first thing I am going to do is reach out to him to confirm this information before telling the "provider" anything. It could even be LE for all we know trying to get info. It is really for everyone's safety. I also do not keep anyone's names. The only info I do keep on a gent is email address, date, time, and amount he paid me. So if I get a message that says "Bob Smith said he saw you and wants to use you as a reference." OK, who the F is Bob Smith? If I saw him once 8 months ago when I was on tour in Chicago I am not going to know who he is with this information given. Obviously if it is a regular I see every two weeks I am going to remember him, but beyond that I am going to need more info.
Some individuals simply say, "There’s no need to contact me every time you mention my name, Rob. We are good to go, and I will inform you if any issues arise." These are typically women I know well, however. That said, I did recently meet up with a provider for the first time, who stated that I never needed to give her advance notice re: referrals.
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In reality, there is a wide spectrum of approaches and unwritten protocols that women in this profession adhere to, each shaped by their unique needs, lived experiences, risk assessment and differing personalities. Remember, there are MANY newer women to this lifestyle that don't always follow the past norms you may speak of. As far as I can discern, there really is no universal standard governing any of these issues anymore.
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Lastly, your example involves an eight-month timeframe, whereas my references typically date back only weeks, or a few months, at most. In addition, I also often play with the providers’ p4p friends, which tends to expedite the process and overcome any concerns.
This is a great practice. I can’t tell you how many last-minute appointment requests I get from gentleman who are not already screened. Just getting two references out of them is often a struggle. My website states upfront that I require references or a P411 ID. When someone sends me incomplete information, it already shows me that they are not willing to pay attention to detail and/or follow instructions, which is very important for the day of the appointment. The way I see it, failure to submit all of the screening information automatically makes that potential client a liability.
All I had to do was send an e-mail to the provider with the name, number, e-mail and URL of a website/ad and I'd be quickly confirmed. It usually took less than two hours, rarely more than a day. Then it just broke down. Providers didn't want to give references, providers didn't want to take references, providers wanted to be asked first before being used as a reference, providers wanted to be paid to be a reference, the references couldn't be more than 3 months or 6 months old..... Its easier to meet women off of dating apps at this point! Pretty soon we're going to have to film ourselves jumping through hoops that have been lit on fire to get a booking. What's a guy to do? You're either paying too much for honey or beating your dick like it owes you money!
It still is easy. I just don’t see the women with pain in the ass heavy screening.
Well, I think the breakdown occurred when guys were NOT sending all of that information. Or my favorite (that happened to me too many times!!) was guys giving "references" of providers they had never seen. I seem to recall someone even on this board telling another client that "most providers don't even check so just say you saw whomever." Yes, reputable providers DO check. You are pointing the finger at providers for this mess, but I think you may want to look at your fellow clients. You may have been doing everything correctly when it comes to references, but if many other guys are not it is for sure going to sour providers, including myself, when it comes to accepting references.
Now I can't possibly fault providers wanting to be safe or safer. That's completely understandable and I fully support it.
With that said, the more inconvenience and hurdles to jump for a client, at some point client might say fuck it and turn to some alternatives that don't have the same degree of inconvenience and allow for ease of access.
I can see more and more people turning to agencies where they have to go through the verification process once and then get access to everyone in the agency, versus doing it separately for each new provider who might have their own reference procedures. Just in terms of time and efficiency, it's not even comparable.
References are not a client entitlement. They are a professional courtesy exchanged between providers for the safety of our colleagues, not for your convenience. You pay us for the date; the hours we spend verifying you, answering emails, and serving as your reference are unpaid labor.
References are also subjective. A client who is a saint with one provider may be a menace to the other. If I vouch for someone who later causes harm, it damages my reputation and my colleagues’ trust. That’s why many providers want to be asked before being used, or charge for their time. And for the record... I understand why some providers charge. It's an administrative task that no one is entitled to. Depending on how often you are asking to use that person and how long it's been since you've seen them, it makes sense to be polite.
And yes, one bad apple spoils the bunch. I’ve had a man use me as a reference 6 times over two years. I later learned he was a delight with me but a disaster elsewhere. My glowing reference was being used to get him in rooms where he didn’t belong. That’s exactly why your most recent references, people who can speak to who you are now, are the most valuable.
Bottom line: screening exists to protect us and each other. If it feels like “jumping through flaming hoops,” it’s because too many clients have proven why those hoops are necessary.
With all due respect Paige, and you know I respect you immensely, to me, charging for a reference comes across as a blatant money grab, severely unprofessional and so far outside the norm that it would be highly insulting. It undermines the sense of mutual respect and trust that many of us hope to maintain in these interactions. After all, providing that reference typically takes no more than a minute or two of someone’s time. A valued client isn’t worth that???
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Demanding what is essentially a nuisance fee be paid for a common courtesy is not only highly unorthodox, it also strikes me as deeply unprofessional. It would immediately discourage me from ever reaching out to that provider again, and furthermore, she would make my DNS list with close friends.
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For someone who has already paid for your (plural) time, may see you again in the future, might refer other clients to you, who may tip generously, or leave a glowing review to enhance your reputation/financial position, hearing something like that would be an enormous turnoff of epic proportions.
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Now, if that policy were clearly communicated upfront, then sure, I’d accept full responsibility for not paying attention. My bad. But I think you know how often I’m told I’m too “pro-provider” in these threads on this board. So much so that I have been referred to as Queen Bia’s alias on numerous occasions. Lol. But even someone like myself has a threshold that I refuse to cross.
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Of course, any woman is free to run her business however she sees fit, as that is always stipulated, but I believe the long-term consequences of such a policy would far outweigh any short-term gain. I simply can't understand how any true, client caring professional would see that as a justifiable or sustainable practice.
you're cheap. If you are paying for her time for the session, why would you think that entitles you to OTC time to provide a reference to another girl you want to see? If I intend to use a provider as a reference, I will ask her if a hundred dollars would be enough to cover her time for the reference. This is on top of the tip for service. In order to not have the problems many others have here, I only use provider refs for indie bookings, and never give any personal information. I think it's classless to expect a provider to provide references on their own time for free. Fortunately, we can all show who we are in circumstances like this. I find it perfectly reasonable to pay for the time I want, regardless of what she will be doing during that time. You, on the other hand, are shocked at the idea of compensating a provider for the time she spends trying to help you see SOMEONE ELSE! How arrogant is THAT?
Robert sees providers that charge $1000+/hour while you see K-girls for $400/hour. Its a little bit rich that you call him cheap lol. Either way, Robert sees luxury companions at the top of the game while you see less expensive ones. I'm not surprised Robert is used to experiencing a higher level of service than you. He pays for white glove treatment and gets it while you get the a la cart service model. Also, you seem to mostly deal with agencies and bookers so I doubt this is a very frequent experience for you.
It's just used as a psychological tool to get people to spend more money than they otherwise would. You never see this used against real wealthy people only those who have insecurities about their wealth.
I roll my eyes every time a seller uses "cheap" to describe a customer. Isn't every customers goal is to find best value, ie ratio of output to input? Yeah, it is. Why would you pay more for same thing just to prove to someone (lol) that you have money?
I think calling someone cheap fits your bill. But I use calling an expense - not a person - cheap to describe its low relative cost. I have ticked some off when I have said kgirls are cheap because they think I’m insulting them. But that’s not at all what I am suggesting. I’m just saying their rates relative to other escorts is cheap. For example, I love McDonald’s and consider it a cheap meal. I’m not insulting McDonald’s. It’s just relatively less expensive.
Agreed. I was referring to calling a client/customer cheap. Not the adjective itself 
in my posts and reviews going back 10 years that I only see a Kgirl for one hour the first time, but all repeats are at least two hours. Many of my fellow Kgirl fans book multiple hours with Kgirls rather than one hour with an indie. It's not about cheap, it's about value. Cheap is when he's trying to get extra time for nothing.
Robert has a record here of taking the side of providers on MOST issues that come up, but in this case, it costs him money to pay for a ref, so he's against it. That's called duplicity. Suggesting that $1000 an hour includes OTC time for anything else is cheap. He wants to argue it's a matter of principle, but looking at it form a provider's perspective, it's arrogant. I know a guy who drives around LA is a Ferrari, but still pulls into the gas station with the lowest posted price for gas. This is Robert. Spending a lot on one thing while being cheap on others doesn't make his argument any less disingenuous.
You can speculate all you want about what you DON'T know about how I handle indies if it makes you feel superior. Do a search and you will find the month and year I surpassed one million dollars in hobby spending, including Kgirls AND indies.
a White-Knight trying to rehabilitate for you. You are failing miserably to fend for yourself. Unfortunately, Smoke doesn't know very much about me but loves to speculate. People who have been here ten years can only laugh at his naivete and lack of information. The search button can be his friend, but he prefers to guess.
White-Knight? Actually in this scenario you're the white-knight, standing up for the poor providers. Get your terms straight.
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Here's the thing, you can say whatever you want. I take a lot of what you say with a grain of salt because I don't really believe you. You are the self proclaimed "biggest bullshitter on the board."
You are fairly new here, so let me help you with that search button he mentioned. That way, you can get to know him, but most importantly, in his own words, so no one takes him out of context. lol.
personal attacks while completely failing to come up with ANY defense of your bullshit argument that charging for a ref is "unprofessional." You're just not having a very good day, are you? You still can't escape your revealing moment of painting yourself as cheap. Lol
You didn’t read it correctly because his grammar was atrocious.
CDL was saying the “biggest bullshitter” was the guy he was replying to.
The sentence should have read:
“I can understand your resentment in me being here and keeping you…honest…as (you are) one of the biggest bullshitters and purveyor of false information here.“
Having said that, CDL DEFINITELY IS “the biggest bullshitter and purveyor of false information here .
But CDL doesn’t call it bullshit; he calls it “poetic license.”
So you’re saying CDL couples being the board’s most shameless liar with the writing skills of a hopelessly clueless adolescent. Thankfully, that glorified daycare of his reopens in a few weeks...after summer break. lol.
his own posts, he pivots to personal attacks, the last gasp of someone who has run out of substantive argument. The more you double down on weak personal attacks, the more transparent it becomes that you are just not very bright on the topic at hand.
Gee, you're describing yourself to a tee...
If that weren't bad enough, he AGREES with BigP's post that mocked and ridiculed HIM!!! What a tool! It just doesn't get any better than this!!!! lol.
projecting through your personal attacks. You have completely abandoned any attempt to justify your position that you are ENTITLED to references after you have seen a provider. You have made this all about me and not my opposing view that dressed you down for your stupidity about providers and the way they run their businesses. You have no debating skills, only passive aggression, as always. You seem totally obsessed with me because I kicked your ass on this topic. You are so self-absorbed with your "entitlements" you probably don't even realize I'm living in your head rent-free. Did you run out of money? I noticed your last provider was $260 for the hour. Did she charge you a flat fee or by the pound? Do you see the irony in your white-knights bragging that you only see girls at $1000/hour, and here you are with a girl that is cheaper than a slender Kgirl but 50 pounds heavier. Have you fallen on hard times, Bobby? Lol
you are a helluva lot more intelligent than Robert and his white-knight-brigade by explaining the post that they can't seem to understand.
Huh? Intelligence? Thanks for displaying your level of intelligence. Apparently you did not understand that my previous post was referring to you.
is easy to tell do. Tell me again why you, an alias with no reviews, have any relevance on this board? Do you ever put up a post which is not trolling me? Looks like I live in your head as well. I don't mind. I'm not used to having so much empty space around me.
THIS post is? Do you see the irony in saying you are NOT White-Knighting during a post where you ARE white-knighting? I criticized him directly for his failed arguments, but you responded before he did. Classic white-knighting.
The losers here all take things out of context because they've got nothing else on me. If you read the whole thread, it's clear I was talking about Helixer, the guy who claimed he had been a TER member for 25 years at a time when TER had only been in existence for 21 years.
With all due respect, I think it’s fair to say you may not have read my post as closely as you believe, or you’re reacting a bit emotionally more so to the idea than what I actually said.
Nowhere in my post did I say I charge for references. What I said was that I understand why some providers choose to and that there are situations where it’s justifiable. That’s not the same as implementing the policy myself.
I respect that you personally view charging for a reference as a “blatant money grab” or “deeply unprofessional.” However, I don’t believe it undermines mutual respect or trust when done transparently, especially because providing a meaningful reference is not a “minute or two” of work. If you’re like me, someone who actually writes a thorough reference and verifies details, it’s more than a quick yes/no reply.
As an analogy, if a client called his accountant two years after a single tax filing to ask for a signed letter vouching for him, most professionals would either decline or bill for their time. Escorting is no different — it’s a business. The appointment fee covers the date. Screening, reference replies, and all the administrative work in between are unpaid labor.
Here are a few examples of why a provider might charge for a reference:
• Overuse: A client uses the same provider 5–6 times over a period of years for references, without seeing her again, and she’s essentially acting as his free, perpetual pass.
• Stale history: A client requests a reference two years after a single booking. That provider cannot confidently speak to his current behavior, yet still has to spend time responding.
• High-volume screening: A provider receives multiple reference requests per week for men she’s seen once — and loses hours of billable time giving away her credibility.
• Risk to reputation: A man who was respectful with her turns out to be a problem for others. Her reference, given in good faith, is now tied to that harm, damaging her professional trust among peers.
When a provider charges, it’s typically a nominal admin fee (I've seen colleagues charge $25 - $100... and yes, sometimes more) not an attempt to “cash grab,” but a way to ensure her time and credibility are not exploited. Most who charge also disclose it upfront to the client or the requesting provider.
You’re absolutely free to decide that this would be a turn-off for you. But I also believe it’s important to separate personal preference from objective business reality. What seems “highly unorthodox” in your eyes is not some moral failing, it’s just a boundary you don’t personally like. And that’s fine.
You should get extra karma points for your gracious reply to
but I would have to say that any provider who did ask for a fee for a reference, unless there were some mitigating circumstances, would be diminishing herself in my view.
And for the record, no one was "blacklisting" anyone. I would certainly point out to friends though that the girl in question has a paid referral protocol, if I knew about it.
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That is not a "black list." That is just informing close friends of policies I know that would make them most likely skip over that provider in question, is all. I guess some people don't have friends here? I can see why. 
Literal Blacklisting means putting a monger's information on a national blacklist site so other providers who are members can check the info about someone they are considering seeing. But most of the time Blacklisting more accurately refers to being put on a girl's Do Not See list. That means you won't be able to book her but has no further implications.
Agreed. Using the more informal definition you provided above,
Some people just don't get it and never will.
I'm not sure where the misunderstanding arose, but at no point did I intend to single you out or imply that you personally charge a fee in relation to this topic. That assumption never crossed my mind. If you review my original post, you’ll see I specifically used the plural form of “you” to clarify that I wasn’t addressing you individually. My concern was not with your actions, but rather with your defense of others who engage in this dubious practice.
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As for your analogy, I find it rather misplaced. I don’t know anyone who would reasonably expect a provider to vouch for someone they haven’t seen in two years, so I’m not sure that comparison holds up.
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Your examples raise further concerns. In the case of what you called “overuse” or “stale history,” are you really suggesting it’s understandable for a provider to vouch for someone simply because she’s being paid to do so, even if she hasn’t seen him in a long time? Wouldn’t that possibly place the inquiring provider at advanced physical risk? A more appropriate and ethical response would be that you (plural) can not vouch for him, and note that the client hasn’t been seen recently and was, in fact, violating your (again, plural) terms by giving out your name in the first place.
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The amount of the fee is completely irrelevant to me Paige. It’s the message that it sends. There is a clear reason why virtually no reputable professional, in this realm or out of it, imposes an “administrative fee” for simply providing a referral to a stipulated courteous and conscientious client. That reason is that it is broadly recognized as being petty, unnecessary and ethically questionable.
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This explains why the practice is so amazingly rare, because engaging in it risks eroding trust, alienating both the client and her potential future clients, and ultimately undermining the fundamental integrity of the professional relationship.
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I just don’t understand why anyone, on either side of this realm, would want to antagonize the other, especially just after intimacy, trust and mutual respect was shared. Charging for referrals is just antagonistic, imo.
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Thank you so much for your response and engaging with me in healthy debate. it is greatly appreciated.
I appreciate you clarifying your intent but I’ll be equally clear: my post was not about defending all providers who charge for references. It was about explaining why some do, based on situations that occur more often than you might believe.
When you say you “don’t know anyone” who would expect a reference after a long gap, that’s precisely the disconnect. Just because you can’t imagine the possibility, doesn’t mean it isn’t common. Many of us have inboxes with a handful of clients who haven’t booked in a year or more, sometimes after a single meeting, asking for references, sometimes multiple times, often pushing back when told no. It’s not hypothetical. It’s lived experience.
Charging for a reference does NOT mean vouching for someone you can’t safely vouch for. It means being compensated for the time spent responding, verifying, and corresponding, even if the answer is “ I have not seen this. Client since (insert date) but here’s the information I have about him. Take it with a grain of salt.” That time is labor. In most industries, admin labor is billable.
The “overuse” example you flagged is another reality: one client can use the same reference repeatedly over years, never booking again. Providers who charge for this aren’t “selling a pass”, they’re discouraging repeat free labor from someone no longer part of their active client base.
I understand you view this as “petty” or “unprofessional,” but that’s a subjective value judgment, not an objective truth. In business terms, it’s a boundary. And boundaries are not antagonistic… they’re structure. A transparent policy stated upfront allows clients to make informed choices, which is the opposite of eroding trust.
You’re welcome to dislike the practice. But to suggest it’s inherently unethical or that it doesn’t happen is to discount the professional realities many providers navigate every week.
And, in that light, let me clarify with one more response to you.
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I never assumed you were defending “all” providers regarding this policy. That said, I also haven’t heard you critique any of them either. It sounds like you may disagree with some applications of this policy, and if so, I certainly don’t expect you to voice that here, nor should you have to. That’s entirely your choice and right.
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Regarding your comment about “I don’t know anyone,” I want to clarify that I’m fully aware some clients will attempt to exploit the referral process. I’ve heard this from many providers over many years so there's absolutely no disagreement there. But just because someone reaches out doesn’t necessarily mean they expect compliance. More often than not, I believe they’re hoping for a favorable response perhaps out of desperation, laziness or convenience. That was the point I was trying to make, though I may not have communicated it as clearly as I intended.
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One point I remain genuinely confused by is the statement: “Charging for a reference does NOT mean vouching for someone.” I’m not sure how someone could justify charging for a referral if they were not providing one. That part, frankly, lost me.
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I also want to respectfully, but firmly, push back on the notion that “administrative labor is billable.” In virtually every professional field I am aware, be it law, medicine, academia, consulting, finance, etc etc etc there are routine tasks that are widely recognized as professional courtesies rather than billable work. Offering a referral, especially when it requires minimal time or effort, falls into that category. It’s not viewed as “administrative” overhead, but rather as a gesture rooted in professional ethics, goodwill, and mutual respect.
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Of course, I fully acknowledge that my views are subjective. But that’s the nature of discussions like this as we exchange perspectives, and by definition, they’re going to vary. I’m not suggesting a provider can’t have whatever policy they choose; they absolutely can. But just as they’re entitled to set their own policies, I’m entitled to voice a dissenting opinion as I come from a business culture that welcomed constructive client feedback, where such input was seen as essential to refining policies and staying aligned with evolving norms in order to better serve clients.
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To that point, charging for referrals is, in my experience, far outside the established norms of this industry as well as the others I listed. In my 15+ years of involvement in this realm, I’ve never encountered it directly or seen a documented case, as to date they have only been anecdotal, but I accept they exist.
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Please feel free to have the last word here. I think we’ve covered the topic thoroughly, but if you have additional thoughts, I welcome them. Thank you again for engaging in this conversation with total respect, as you always do, and I’ve thoroughly appreciated the exchange.
Is that the more you are on the failing end of an argument, the longer your posts get trying to re-justify your bullshit. You act gracious in "giving" Paige the "last word," but it's really because you have exhausted your feeble arguments and are still behind after several exchanges with her. You never recovered after telling Paige, a past Ms. TER, that you found her position to be "unprofessional" by charging for the EXTRA TIME involved in giving a reference so you can see someone other than her. This, my friend, is an imposition on a provider's time no matter how much you spent to see her, and still makes you look cheap. You paid her for sex, you did NOT buy her permanent friendship. No matter how much you fantasize about them being into you during your sessions, it's still a business. Go to ten other businesses AFTER you have concluded your transaction(s) and ask them to do something else for free, and see how you do. Only the starving and desperate will agree to add value for you on spec.
Re: bullshitting, of course. Oh we are in luck tonight!
for the record. I posted several times with the reasons why you are on the wrong side of this argument, and you responded to me only twice, both times with a cheesy personal attack. The reason is that you have no substantive argument in rebuttal to what I have laid out. When you have failed to acquit yourself on a spurious position, you should just take the "L" and slink away. When all you can muster in opposition is a personal attack, it makes you look even less intelligent than your failed argument does.
With that said, I also note that further down the thread you manage to walk back much of the assertions you made to Paige that were so offensive. Good on you for backing off on your failed positions. You were able to admit you were wrong in a sideways manner that still preserves your precious ego. When you get Smoke White-Knighting for you multiple times on one thread, you should accept that that you are in trouble with your position on an issue.
Here's the thing man, I don't believe the stories that you tell. You have a tendency to contradict yourself. Whenever someone points out your inconsistencies, you always have some convenient story that "everybody" on the board here should know that "proves" you are right. That's great man. Listen, I think its a nice story you told about plunking down $100 for references. I mean cool story big spender. We get it, you're a deep pocketed whale who has no problem paying for a reference and anyone who doesn't is cheap. However, when you choose escorts you aren't being cheap, just value conscious. Sure, whatever floats your boat. I guess Robert is the guy that drives a Ferrari but looks for cheaper gas. What does that make you? You're driving around in a 20 year old Hyundai Elantra but you act like its a sports car because you fill it with premium and put a spoiler on the back.
Yes, his ad hominem attacks are so virulent because he has no leg to stand on when it pertains to the issues. Watch, he's going to attack me because "I am not credible" since I have no reviews. Reviews??? Reviews are the measure of a man he says. This comes from the man who says he spends a fortune on Indies. Really??? Then where are YOUR reviews? We accept your utter surrender!!! lol Of course, you won't surrender. Once again, you won't address the fact that you haven't written any reviews in 2 1/2 years. Perhaps it is your ED that is too embarrassing to talk about. Sure, that last sentence is speculation but so are most of your arguments. So then please tell us, why haven't you written any reviews of the Indies you speak of? Please, show us the receipts!
in saying I have no argument on the issues when I argued the issue on my first and second posts and neither you nor Robert responded to the substance of those posts. You joined the conversation strictly as a troll to levy personal attacks. If I missed where you discussed the issue, please remind me where that was on this thread.
Further, do you see the irony in asking ME for reviews of indies when you have NO reviews at all? I have four hundred reviews under my CDL username and there are a few indies mixed in with the Kgirls. Others here know this. How do you expect to have ANY cred on this point when you have zero reviews? The board posters here know you only as a troll and are apparently fine with it. I'm fine with it, and if you're fine with it, too, it's all good. Now go try to get some attention somewhere else. Trolls only draw ridicule. People don't usually engage with trolls unless they need a minion to support their own bullshit, then they will use you and discard you like yesterday's potato salad.
I must be today's potato salad because you continue to engage me. Don't YOU see the IRONY in continuing to engage me and using false narrative's that only calls out your own BS? You are the only one on this Board that in ad nauseum, requires reviews for "credibility." Okay then, I'll call your bluff. I will reveal my couple hundred reviews if you out your Alias that has all those indie reviews over the last 2 1/2 years...... We're waiting.....
Oh that's right, you don't have any. Your ED issues prevent you from seeing the ladies, hence your lack of reviews. Okay, no one cares what your yesterday potato salad is like, let's see your FRESH stuff! We're still waiting....
The posters here worldwide know that you are the laughingstock of the Board. And you are fine with it. I just wish you'd come up with something new rather than copy and pasting your same old tired comments.
"Elantra with a spoiler." 🤣
Unfortunately for everyone on this board, CDL is a painfully broken person who only feels alive when pissing on someone else's leg. He has to spread darkness to make himself feel the light. It's sad, but it's also why I put him on ignore over a year ago. Who needs the bitterness and bile.
claimed that he was a TER member for 25 years at a time when TER was only in existence for 21 years. I kept a copy of it to remind me of what a hopeless wannabe you are.
I merely pushed back on what I deem to be a highly unprofessional practice of charging for them.
doubling down on CHEAP and ARROGANT? You are clueless. If you asked a professional detailer to spruce your car up and you agree on a price for the detailing, you have a right at the end to say, "See this, you missed a spot. Can you take care of that?" But before you drive away, would you say, "I'm not paying you extra, but would you rotate my tires before I go?
Giving a reference is NOT part of the session unless you have her call the girl you want the reference for DURING the time you booked. It's a separate service she may offer after she has delivered all of the normal activities during the session. References are OTC time, and some ladies may offer it at no charge to their FREQUENT customers, but to expect it from everyone at no charge presumes too much. If you can't afford to treat people fairly in this biz, then pick another hobby and stop whining about an extra gratuity for a reference. I have always found it to be more than worth the little extra I give when I want a ref.
I’m not understanding why you think our time is free for providing references to people we don’t know personally. It takes time to verify everyone who is inquiring. 🤨 I don’t share information with anyone who is a question mark. ❓
References should never be a free service. Your attitude towards this subject is very disrespectful in my personal opinion. 20 years + no references needed & p411 is not. Verification site. Stop trusting others to have your best interests & safety first it’s your responsibility to do your own vetting.
When I owned my own escort agency in college I would meet up in public to screen potential new clients. They would give me $100 for my time because they knew once they were in I would refer them to all my sexy girlfriends. A person vouch from a reputable provider is a privilege not a right.
If a provider refers me to a friend of hers and he books me I send her a gift it’s old-school professional courtesy. My better half has not worked in years, but she knows lots of people in this industry, so I still pay her for her for her expertise. Knowledge is power. It’s nice to be nice. Abusing someone’s generosity by stating references should be free RR needs his entitlement stripped.
So, to suggest that these services should never be offered for free runs completely counter to how the vast majority of professionals in this field actually operate. Personally, I’ve never been charged for one, never even been asked to pay, never seen an actual case of someone doing so, so why would I engage in something so out of the norm?
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You don’t accept referrals yourself, right? Well, among those who do, particularly the reputable, professional providers, it’s standard operating practice not to charge a fee.
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Ask yourself why that is. It’s because they value their clients, and they understand that introducing fees would feel more like an insult than a service. I respect that approach deeply. Referrals aren’t just about helping an individual client as they strengthen the entire community, especially so the women who use them and need them so this is not a client benefit only.
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Sorry, but the disrespect is coming from any provider that would insult a client by forging that heinous business practice upon them. In my life, I have been used as a referral on many occasions, in several different walks of like. There are two types of people in that regard.
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People who I would vouch for and people I would not. But I would never seek any form of payment from the ones that benefit from my vouch. If offered, I would reject it. Not everything is about money Queen. Nor should it be.
Again, there is a reason that virtually EVERY provider does NOT charge for them. Some of those reasons is that they respect their clients and don't want to insult them in addition to not wanting come off as unprofessional and petty.
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Those are the women that will get my business in the future as I will NEVER pay for one. You do you, I do me kinda thing, so please take your anger and hostility some place else. I'll handle my affairs as I deem best for me, thank you very much!
Do use your own internal polling data for this or do you outsource? Just curious, you must have some robust information to come to such conclusions as 99% don’t charge fees for referrals as well as another statement claiming virtually all providers offer this service for free.
I mean that’s some great work, if so! How much can I trust your product Robert? I suspect your numbers are as full of shit as you are, lol.
Here’s another provider’s take on the issue:
Odd you would quote someone, not tell us who it is and then not bother to give proper context but it’s not surprising at all coming from you. Care to try again since you were so scared on this occasion?
you always do. You don't like the message, so you bash the messenger.
I quoted a provider and he called me a coward for respecting her privacy. Go figure.
You made her look foolish as you provided ZERO context. Her words in a vacuum look silly as literally no one was making the argument she was pushing back on. And so do you for posting them and running away.
thread that justified you calling him a racist? That's way out of line, Bobby, even for your Mr. Passive-Aggressive persona here. That's what most people would call projection. A personal attack out of the blue that is unrelated to the topic at hand. You're just not a very nice man, are you? First you tell Ms. TER Paige that she is unprofessional in her business practices because she won't do something for you for free, and now you call someone a Racist who has not once mentioned race on this thread. I realize now the sarcasm you built into your "RespectfulRobert" moniker to try to fool providers into seeing you. Get your shit together and stay on topic or else take the day off and get some much-needed rest.
Her quote was in direct response to yours. Now go back to fantasizing about kids in Gaza burning up in tents.
I can understand this subthread getting moved to P&R from the General Forum, but curious as to why Scarlet’s entire thread was moved over here.
I had a different view on this reference nonsense and was going to chime in but now...Not so sure but seeing that I'm here with the dumb ass righties,by the way...you righties still fucked in the brain?? But I have to bail ,,,But I have to ask, seeing that I'm here and its been awhile so I have to ask... Are you, CKS, still that lying spineless, weasel, kiss ass?
Have you grown a spin yet? Do you still polish shoes??
Just curious
Happy, who ran away from this forum after predicting Biden would wipe the floor with Trump at the debate, returns only to call somebody “spineless”??? That’s both amusing and ironic.
Why are providers trying to gaslight us here? We're not entitled, we just have expectations based on our experience. Most providers do not charge for references and usually have had no problem being a reference. I've had providers offer to be a reference unprompted. This was the industry standard for YEARS. It was part of the package.
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The providers you see obviously have no problem being a good reference. In addition to being a good client, you're a whale. You book multi-hour dates and duo dates that cost a few G's and you tend to repeat. These providers clearly value the long term relationship. They're not going to try to nickel and dime you over a $50-$100 reference fee because they want to keep booking multi-hour dates. They want to refer you to their friends so they can get paid too, and maybe even get a duo date booked. The phrase "penny-wise, pound foolish" comes to mind when I hear providers charging for references.
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I'm also glad you pointed this out but yes, we have been references too. Not just in the p4p world either. Many clients here are professionals. We've been asked to provide references to potential employers and clients. We have acted as a reference for former colleagues and vendors. I've been on half hour phone calls with some HR dweeb just to tell them my work buddy isn't a fuck up. So I don't really buy it when a provider tells me that being a reference is an onerous, time consuming task that they need to be compensated for.
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I'm just getting tired of hearing providers complain these days. They're charging the highest rates ever and it seems like its one of the best times to be in the biz. But they never seem happy. What gives? I mean if its that hard they can always get a different job.
You are 100% correct. This has absolutely nothing to do with entitlement. I’ve made that point repeatedly, both in this thread and in countless others regarding topics such as deposits, RW info, etc. What we're discussing here concerns expectations, which is an entirely different issue.
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Expectations are shaped by experience, specifically, experience with both current and past providers. Over time, those experiences, through consistent actions and many communications, have formed a certain baseline of what to expect. It’s not unlike watching the sun set in the west every single evening. When something becomes that consistent, it’s only natural to expect it to continue bc we are human.
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That said, expectations are not the same as rights. This should be self-evident. These amazing women have every right to conduct their affairs however they so choose. They are individuals, not beholden to anyone’s personal expectations. However, as public figures operating in a highly public profession, they are naturally subject to the same scrutiny that any business or public persona would receive.
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I appreciate you highlighting this distinction, because you're getting to the heart of it. I spent decades as a business professional, and I bring those experiences with me into a discussion like this. I’ve been on the other end of those job seeking verification calls, as I said, with sometimes just confirming if someone worked at our company, which can take under a minute. Others are more detailed and take five minutes, and as you rightly point out...sometimes much longer.
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In none of those cases did it ever cross my mind to ask for compensation. Why? Perhaps that person had helped me. Perhaps they made my life easier, supported my goals, or helped my team hit year-end bonuses. In short, they added value, to me, to my business...and, to my life. The idea of demanding compensation for simply acknowledging or supporting that value is, frankly, incredibly distasteful to me. It's a core, deeply held, fundamental belief. I am not going to retract from it bc a few people here may push back against it.
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Let me also say that I have deep respect for women who work in P4P. It REALLY is work at times. Even MANY times. Anyone familiar with my posting history knows of this adoration I possess for these wonderful women. Many have thanked me, both publicly and privately, for being an ally. I’ve always stood up for them against bullying, misogyny, stalking, etc and I will ALWAYS continue to do so....the consequences be damned.
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I’m SO grateful to the many P4P women who’ve welcomed me into their lives, cultivated mind blowing fantasies for me, who’ve shown me affection, kindness, and, yes, in a few rare cases, even genuine friendship in the RW. Those women know my values. They know me. They know I am a principled person, at least I try to be. And they understand that my stance on this issue comes from a place of sincerity and not hostility, not entitlement...just a different perspective is all, based on all of my lived experiences.
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Thank you for your time and for having my back in this discussion. We haven’t always agreed, as our past debates, here on this very board, and one other, have been shall we say, intense at times? lol. But I’ve always respected you. You strike me as someone who builds arguments on principles, facts, ethics, your lived experiences, and common sense...and NOT on identity politics, hidden agendas, whims or knee-jerk reactions. And for that, I’m truly appreciative.
I recruit for our office. I work in accounting.
We interviewed a girl who worked at a Big 4 accounting firm and used her old boss as a reference. When our secretary called to get the reference, this place, a Big 4 accounting firm worth billions, said they charge $70 bucks for a reference and sent her to a separate subsidiary that handle it. Needless to say, she was not hire because we have a hard policy - three references or no hire.
Absolute nickel and dime low class behavior. I would rather the place say we don't give references (they sucked or they were great) and just confirm that they worked there during the periods of time mentioned, which I know many companies do at the behest of legal because they don't want to be sued over a perceived or actual bad reference.
For me, it’s about being upfront. If you have in your ad or your website that you charge a fee for references, I can decide if that impacts my decision to see you. At one point, most ladies required references. For a monger like me who doesn’t see ladies too often and likes variety, knowing this upfront allowed me to make an informed decision. These days there are enough other options that I don’t really care. But someone else might.
I see it like any other rates. It’s up to you and no one else to decide how you want to handle it. There is nothing wrong, IMO, for a lady doing them for free nor for you charging. I’m only bothered when it’s not upfront. Then it feels like an upsell. If I know the details upfront, I can then decide with full knowledge.
If a provider wants to have, what I consider to be an anti-client protocol, then so be it. Her body...her business...her rules. ALWAYS. All any fair minded person would want is for her to state that policy in a conspicuous place and I will not complain about it. It would be on me at that point and only me to do my due diligence. But I will avoid those women like the plague, as is my right as a client. All good.
When a gal does this it's really a "scratch my back and I'll scratch yours situation." She is also helping out the other provider in this equation in two ways: she is helping her get business and also helping her stay safe. In addition she is helping her own business when the shoe is on the other foot.
All good reasons not to charge for this very simple service.
The only “men” here disputing our perspectives are those harboring grievances against us from a different forum. As expected, they undermine their own credibility through transparent pettiness.
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While not surprised, it is still stunning to observe their inability to transcend their hyper political partisanship.
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Now…watch them deny it.
I recall this being common thinking among most providers when references was the sole option most of them wanted. When almost all of them preferred/required references and didn't offer much in other options, they did it for others because they needed it for themseleves. These days, it's rather rare for references to be the only option. LinkedIn, work website directories, p411, and many other options exist. Some providers actually do not even want references to be an option. They have come to see them as more a pain in the ass. The idea of not only not wanting references for themselves, but also not wanting to give them, is what seems to have led some to charging for them. But from what I have seen, charging is still not the norm. But it wouldn't surprise me as more and more don't want to deal with references this may become more of a thing.
Like many things in life, the bad rap on references is because of those who have abused there intent. On the clients side, you have issues like not communicating before using a provider as a reference, overusing a provider as a reference, asking for a reference from a provider that has not been seen for quite some time, etc... And when pinched, providers might say no. But a pain in the ass client might bust their balls over it. And, on the providers side, you have issues like not responding (or taking a long time), not providing helpful information which leads to more back and forth questions, not being okay with helping a client of theirs see someone else, etc... If not for these issues, both more clients and providers may still prefer references.
Whoa whoa whoa lets back up here. Since when is administrative work "unpaid labor?" You get paid for all that when you book a client. Any time a client starts grousing about rates, a provider will sweep in to say "we aren't just getting paid for the date but also getting paid for our marketing, time spent responding to e-mails and booking clients, time getting ready etc." That's the whole point of being an independent provider. You take on the marketing and administrative work and in return you can charge higher rates and avoid paying an agency cut. You are getting paid very handsomely for the administrative "unpaid labor."
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Also, when did I ever say that clients are entitled to a reference? I never said that anywhere. All I said is this process used to be a lot easier for the client. Look I get it, getting a guys PI and LinkedIn is probably faster and more reliable than references. Its less convenient for me but better for you. I understand references need to be timely but some of these windows are very tight.
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However, charging for references just feels gross. It seems to create obvious ethical issues. It feels weird when a provider tries to profit off of a system designed by providers to keep other providers safe. It also creates a perverse incentive. If a provider can charge money for references, what is stopping them from charging bad clients for glowing references? Why would you trust a provider getting paid to give a reference? Do you trust the celebrities on TV who tell you to drink Coke over Pepsi? Not to mention, it does feel like price gouging. Providers are charging higher rates than ever before. I've probably already laid out a few Gs at this point and now you want another $50-$100? Is it really that hard to respond to an e-mail and answer a few quick questions? Tacking on another fee for what used to be a common courtesy just feels like gouging at this point. This last point might not matter to you but it it does matter to some clients. In my opinion, it give the client an insight into the personality and attitude of the provider. Specifically, it makes it seem like the provider has a negative personality and a bad attitude. Providers with negative personalities and bad attitudes tend to be less fun.
-- Modified on 8/13/2025 7:06:33 PM
Let’s start here: our rates cover the work required to secure an appointment: screening, correspondence, preparation and of course, the appointment itself. That’s where the transaction ends. What happens after the date, including serving as a reference, is not automatically prepaid by your original booking. It’s a separate request that comes later, sometimes months or years later, and sometimes multiple times, without a subsequent booking. That’s the distinction.
I never said you personally claimed clients are entitled to references. What I said is that references are a professional courtesy, not an obligation, and that some providers, faced with certain patterns, choose to charge for them. That choice exists whether anyone likes it or not.
And if I can be candid, one thing I’d like to see more of in this thread, and in general, is clients slowing down before responding. I’m not saying you can’t disagree. I’m saying there’s a difference between engaging with the point and reacting to it as if it was aimed directly at you. What I’ve posted here (and to the other gentleman) is not a personal accusation. It’s an argument, not an argument with you. I’m laying out why some providers make this choice, not claiming that you, personally, have done any of the things I’m describing.
Your ethical concerns hinge on the idea that charging means “selling” a glowing reference to anyone willing to pay. That’s a false assumption. A provider can charge for the time spent responding and still stipulate if the client’s behavior or recency makes that unsafe. For example, a reference I recently gave, I stipulated: "PLEASE take my reference with a grain of salt. I have only seen this client once back in 2023. While I can attest to his character then, I cannot speak to his character or behavior as of late and I think it pertinent to request further screening or a more recent reference." Charging for labor is not the same thing as falsifying a recommendation; unless you believe every paid professional is inherently corrupt. By that logic, you shouldn’t trust a lawyer or accountant either. Which I trust my accountant implicitly and he billed me when I requested documents to purchase my condo. But, I digress.
As for the “it’s only a few quick questions” point; in reality, a reference request can involve pulling up records, checking notes, verifying the provider, and sometimes going back and forth with the provider who has their own safety protocols. Even “quick” tasks add up when you receive them regularly, especially from men you haven’t seen in years.
You’re right about one thing: the system was easier for clients before. It was also far riskier for providers before. The hoops you see now were built from patterns of actual harm, not from boredom or greed.
If charging for a reference strikes you as a “bad attitude,” that’s fine; you’re free to only see providers who choose not to do it. But don’t mistake a boundary for a personality flaw. One protects their time and safety. The other makes sure we can keep showing up to do the job you value in the first place.
Paige
A provider who doesn't charge for references but can *understand* and *empathize* with why some do.
Even though you blame customers for these hoops being there in the first place, do you think there will be a certain point where it will be oversaturation of hoops? Ie, someone taking a look and all they can see all the way to the horizon linr is just hoops to jump through. And then they may decide it's just too many for them to jump through?
Do you see these hoops *ever* scaling back? With advent of AI tech it's a easier than ever to get false profiles, documents and so forth. Yes, the bad actors make it worse for everyone, but at some point do you think providers will ease the requirements just cuz agencies will have much easier overhead? Or will it just get steeper and steeper to the point of scheduling with a provider will be tougher than a security clearance at a nuclear facility? I'm exaggerating of course but kinda interested to know whether the line exists and how will the trend continue.
As far as my opinion about charging for references - not that anyone gives a shit about it - I think it's not a sound business decision, but I respect the rights of providers to do this. With that said, I certainly wouldn't advise anyone spending money to get a ref as long as other providers do it for free.
I do agree with 420 about providers put in a position where clients will get upset if providers take money AND give a bad ref, but it's kinda like a paid review where the review isn't glowing.
I actually think this is the most important point.
The references client use are to get to another provider.
If the receiving provider looks at the references and realizes that the said provider charges for references, will she be fully convinced that the guy didnt just pay the provider off?
Because if there is some doubt, it does kinda invalidate the point of references. And it is kinda like the reviews if I know a provider gave a client a discount for a review, my take will be it's probably not an entirely truthful review that will lean towards omitting things that weren't good or ideal. Ie less trust.
Just my two cents.
That’s actually something I hadn’t considered before in that paid referrals can, in fact, undermine confidence in their legitimacy. You're absolutely right that another provider might see someone charging for a referral and question whether the motivation was to earn paid compensation, rather than to genuinely endorse someone.
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Paige presents an argument that providers should have the freedom to charge for referrals if they choose. Of course she is correct. She also notes that sometimes, giving a referral involves more behind-the-scenes effort than people realize. That is a fair point as well, and I take her at her word. But even with those valid arguments, she still chooses NOT to charge for referrals. That is telling.
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We can only speculate on her reasons, but I’d guess they align closely with the concerns several of us have expressed. Regardless, your insight is spot on here and there’s a potential perception of a “pay-to-play” dynamic that I hadn’t fully thought through.
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Just to be clear, I’m not saying that a provider charging a fee for a courtesy is being bribed, but as you noted, it could easily be interpreted that way by the woman on the receiving end of the referral.
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Excellent post!
References have been my Achilles heel through all this.
First I hate to ask.To have her on standby waiting for the call, which may or may not come just to vouch for me.
And sometimes I'll get the awkward jab when I have asked, "You gonna see HER!??"..Nah I don't want to deal with that.
Also, I have a question..
Has anyone ever lost their "Grandfather" privileges because the girl you used as your reference had you at her old rate and now she sees you up'd the ante on a new girl ?
Think about this...Your reference is probably thinking, "Fuck this guy, doing 800 girls now and I've been cool with 400, fuck this shit"..lol
There is a pretty easy way to fix this. Only use references that charge similar rates as the girl you are about to see. If I'm seeing a high end escort that charges $800-$1000 an hour I use references that charge $800-$1000 an hour. If a lady charges $400-$600 an hour I use references that charge in that range.
References pocket watching customers is nasty work.
Why not just give a reference as is and not worry whom your client sees and what rate they charge? Reference is a vouch for client being safe and not dangerous, not a nosy excursion to check rates of girls the client is seeing.
And now this means clients gotta be selective about references too. Smh. It's a fucking game with so many moving parts.
I don't deal with references. If it's all a provider will accept, I move on. There are other fish in the sea. First, I want no part of contacting each provider for a reference and giving them all those these details to help them help me. It's a lot. And, they often do not respond to me either. They are not interested in helping me see another lady. If I am not giving them the business, I am now a time waster.
Also, I don't see providers weekly, and sometimes even skip a month. For me to come up with 2 references, I may need to dig back three months. Maybe longer because I am not about to ask for a reference from someone who didn't do a good job and got a bad review from me. They don't always remember me wither, at least not to the point where they want to give a reference. And, on top of all this, it is a little awkward to ask a provider who I can easily see again for a reference to see someone else.
Sounds miserable. I'm so happy korgs are a lot better with refs. All while being an anonymous monger.
I don't have any issue contacting a provider to ask for a reference. The way I look at it, is that I lined her purse with a large amount of money, and it's just common courtesy for her to provide a reference in return. I don't ever take that courtesy for granted, of course, as I am always quite grateful for it. It's also a "win/win/win" type scenario.
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A win for me to be able to see the next girl, a win for the girl getting the reference as that goes to her safety and financial benefit, and yes, even a win for the girl giving the reference as it would make me more likely to see her again AND she is helping out a fellow SW. It's just good Karma all around.
Also, what do you think an average monger's experience is closer to - your experience or his experience?
It just means both exist.
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And I'll let you be the arbiter for the experiences of "average mongers." I think you would be far better at it than I. lol.
Well, yes. Good answer to the first part. Both exist and so why is it so amazing that yours is so different from his?
I would venture to say an average monger's experience is likely closer to his than yours. Thats my point. *shrug*
It's remarkable to me that even after all these years, this lifestyle continues to captivate me. I never tire of hearing how others’ experiences that differ from my own. It’s that diversity of perspective and lived experiences that keeps things engaging here.
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After all, if everyone had identical outcomes in every situation, this place would quickly lose its appeal. Lol
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If what you're saying about hehit's experience being more typical is accurate, then yes, that would be very disheartening.
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One of the defining features of this lifestyle is its incredible range; moments of joyous euphoria followed by the possibility of utter frustration.
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But much like a baseball closer shaking off a tough outing, you regroup and dive back in, knowing the next high could be just around the corner.
I've never had a problem with using references. I always reach out first and ask if it's okay. I don't know what hehits is referring to about providing a lot of information. I simply ask if it's okay to use them as a reference and that's it.
I have seen a number of women who after meeting them the first time said things like "if you ever need a reference use me - I'd be happy to provide one". I don't think I've ever used a lady as a reference after just one meeting.
However I have not needed references very often - I have a lot of success with using my P411 account with numerous okays.
I'm glad that you had this experience. Do you consider yourself an average monger?
The lot of information is what I thought the OP said in the first post that created this thread. She listed off a list of helpful things to make sure are done. TBH, I misread and thought it was all for the provider giving a reference. I see now most is for who you’re booking. I was responding to that, but you can ignore that part now.
However, right off the bat you noted a stark difference between you and I. You said you never asked a lady for a reference after a first visit. I rarely repeat, so that would leave me next to no one. By only asking women you have repeated with, the very nature of what you’re doing and your experience is different than mine.
If I was one to repeat and do multiple hour dates more often, I too would probably feel very different about the process. But as someone who more often than not seeks variety and rarely books more than an hour, I’m not developing the same comfort with providers and I imagine that feeling is mutual.
-- Modified on 8/12/2025 8:47:29 PM
Pretty sure the joke was completely missed.
But it was intended to be light-hearted in nature. lol.
Something about an average monger or something else?
It was the "average monger" thing. I was just messing with you. lol.
I didn't even consider it a joke. I guess that highlights how differently I approach the hobby and life in general.
Like, I'd WANT to be an average monger. Not a vip monger. Same goes for any business in my life. I don't find any joy nor satisfaction in being a "vip" client or be given any preferential treatment over others just because of who I know, who I am or how much money I put in. Id want to be treated like someone average over preferential treatment.
The whole idea of someone being treated differently as a client depending on the amount of money put in, is extremely offputting to me to the point of mild disgust. And it's not that because I can't afford something. It's the concept of it. When everything revolves around money, many peoples identities are defined by it, and that's a shame.
Ideally, people who spend very little are treated exactly the same as whales. In all businesses. Because it's about treating people well, not using them to extract money. A lot of people sell their souls.
Anyway, mini rant over.
-- Modified on 8/13/2025 4:08:14 PM
You really should let go of that shovel, but I have to admit you're making this much funnier than it should have been.
He still doesn’t understand that he was the butt of that joke…
I understand, it's just to me its not really a joke. So not only do I not take offense to it, I embrace it.
I embrace being an average monger or being an arbiter of average monger experiences.
Shovel? I just tell how I feel. If it's funny to you, we'll I'm glad you got pleasure out of my post.
It's funny because I took Robert's defaulting to you on what the average monger might have to say was about you always taking others (Robert included) to task for "speaking of other people" yet here you are saying you're the average monger so you experience is more accurate/representative than Roberts.
That's not what I said at all tho?
I asked if Robert thought whether his or hehits experience is closer to the average monger experience. You know, statistically. And I said that I think hehits experience is closer.
I don't see how that is speaking for others. And I certainly didn't bring up my experiences until you started repeatedly pointing out that I missed the joke.
I think our approach to the hobby is different from the jump, so it’s not that surprising, to me at least, that this is something we experience differently. From what I have read from you it seems you see more ladies than I do, you’re more likely to have some on repeat, you’re more likely to book multiple hours, and you’re more likely to book higher end (more expensive) providers.
This means you’re also more likely to feel more comfortable and close to some of the ladies you see. And, they are more likely to want to provide you with a reference. Heck, they’re more likely to remember who you are. Heck, it’s just like any other business. Customers more likely to be remembered spend more money and time at the places they peruse.
I have a handful of regulars I have been seeing for 5-10 years. They provide most of my refs. I have from time to time seen lower cost providers just to update their desire to provide references. So far so good!
I just had an irritating experience with a provider...I posted elsewhere that she had trouble verifying my existence from the Internet (which was awesome, btw!). I asked her what now as that was all I felt comfortable giving out. I even told her that if you want to pass, then I'm good with that - I will simply move on. But she insisted and asked if I could give two providers as references.
I gave her the names of the last two I saw and I got lucky that they responded. But it could have been a pain if they had refused to give a reference.
Another provider I was considering had it clearly posted on her website that she charges $100 for a reference, which is not the worst business practice. Even better would be to say "I do not give references and I do not accept them in place of my screening method!"
But to each their own. I think I am going to pass on any providers that require a reference because I truly do not want to get anyone else involved.
Interesting how that works.......I have a perfect example......few years back.....I asked a gal in Tampa to give me a reference for a gal in "Carolina". that I was going to see in Atlanta......my Tampa gal was pissed because I was spending money on the other and not making a trip to Tampa.......point being.......references -----the Tampa gal also had initially wanted references....but when asked to provide one....dug in her ..................on the deal......so........asking someone in the same business to offer a reference makes no sense at all....just sayin'......
It seems she doesn't really understand the hobby. Or basic customer service.
Hi all,
A few themes keep coming up, so let’s address them plainly.
First, the debate itself:
This thread is full of straw man arguments, false equivalences, ad hominems, shifting burdens of proof, and other logical detours. There are so many that I don’t have the time to list them all. But the pattern is clear: responding to what you think I’m saying instead of what I’ve actually said.
On “pay-to-play” perception:
Charging for a reference does not, by definition, mean providing a positive reference. A provider can charge for the labor of responding while still saying, “Here's the information I have based on our most recent meeting in (insert month/year). While they were good to me, it has been (extended length of time). I cannot attest to their character as of now or recently but there were good to me. I strongly suggest doing more screening.”
The payment covers the work, not the verdict. That’s not unique to this industry; most professions separate billable time from the outcome delivered.
On perception and trust:
If the concern is that other providers might assume payment = bias, that’s a perception problem, not a reality problem. Perception is shaped by transparency. A provider who charges can (and should) be upfront about what the fee covers. The receiving provider can still weigh the reference against other screening data. This is exactly how other professions handle potential conflicts: through disclosure, not abstinence.
On Robert’s “telling” comment:
Robert implied that my choice not to charge for references is “telling” of agreement with his position. My actual reasoning is simple: I value the life and safety of my fellow workers above all else, and in my personal calculus, that means I give references without charging. Secondary to that, I want everyone to be safe and have a good time. Third, I'm not worried about "losing" a client. They always circle back. Regardless, my decision not to charge is my business choice. It does not mean providers who charge are doing anything unsafe or unethical, and it’s not a coded admission that I secretly agree with him.
On “we’ve always done it this way”:
Yes, references used to be given freely, quickly, and often. The industry also used to have less screening overall, fewer hoops, and more providers burned because they trusted too easily. Norms change in response to patterns; not because someone woke up one day and thought, “I’d like to make this harder.” If we could make it easier and know people would b behave... we would.
On the corporate reference comparison:
Equating escort references to corporate job references is a false equivalence. The stakes are not the same. In our work, a reference carries personal safety risk, legal exposure, and factors that do not exist in corporate HR calls. A glowing “he’s a great guy” in our world can put another provider in physical danger. That’s why the process is more guarded.
On “nickel and diming” and business sense:
A policy is only “penny-wise, pound-foolish” if it loses more value than it creates. For some providers, charging for repeat or stale references discourages overuse, preserves bandwidth for active clients, and reinforces boundaries. For others, it’s not worth the friction. Both approaches are valid business decisions.
On expectations vs. rights:
You’re right... expectations aren’t rights. They are habits formed from repeated patterns. And just like in any other industry, when the market shifts, expectations sometimes have to adjust. That’s not hostility; it’s evolution.
So yes, some providers charge for references. Some don’t. Both can coexist. Clients are free to avoid the ones who do, and providers are free to adopt the policy if it suits their business.
And if all else fails, you’re absolutely right: we’re just silly, overcomplicated bimbos who should defer to the business instincts of the gentlemen in this thread. Clearly, you all have our industry strategy handled.
Paige, xx
-- Modified on 8/14/2025 2:19:54 PM
Excellent summary of the discussion here so far. But I doubt that it’s the end of it.
lol
"On perception and trust:
If the concern is that other providers might assume payment = bias, that’s a perception problem, not a reality problem. Perception is shaped by transparency"
Well shit that's news to me. How come providers don't share the same view about perception vs reality when it comes to reviews? Somehow the providers care a LOT how they are perceived via reviews.
I mean they eschew TERs whole rating system because being perceived as average with a score of five is a lot worse for perception than a score of eight.
So if a provider gets upset by a low scoring review that is well in line with TER rules, then wouldn't you agree it's purely a perception problem?
I do agree with you that its a perception problem. However in this industry, there is a lot of deception and lies. So then people go more off perception than they do reality. If this wasn't the case, most providers wouldn't get panties in a bunch over mediocre or bad reviews or tough graders. After all, it's just perception not reality. And yet they do.
Just like when we think a reviewer is suspect, it's just a perception but since we will never 100% know the reality we go off perception.
Your title makes me think of the pimps and hos stereotype relationship. Us men running it just seems like a bad idea.
That said, a couple of thoughts. First, I don't really care if a provider charges for references. My bias in this is because I don't use them anyway. Also, I think it's an escorts right to charge for whatever she wants. And, equally it's the clients right to choose whether to see her and ask for whatever is on her menu, including references. My main expectation is that whatever an escort chooses is included in her posted rates. Even if it's not specific and says something like, "a fee to be discussed upon request" or something like it.
I would like to think that even if an escort posts a fee, depending on the client and their relationship, she may not charge him anyway. In fact, it's not the worst idea for a casual one time client. But if she has a regular guy who spends a lot of money and time on her, maybe tips her and/or gives her gifts, and is always nice to her, and he asks for a reference once, and she still wants a fee, it would be very disappointing.
Another point, the taking money and still giving an honest reference is a bit of a grey area. There may be a little projection here. You strike me as person with strong ethics, one who would never take money in exchange for providing a false reference. (I know, technically you don't take the money at all.) And, while there are others like you, I think we both know that there are also others who will provide a false reference, one that is in favor of the client, for the money.
IMO, I would much rather an escort decline being a reference and pass on the money than to take it if she cannot provide an honest good reference. I do not like the idea of a provider taking the money and then telling the next lady, I don't really remember the guy. Nor do I like the idea of her taking the money and gloating about him, when she actually doesn't remember the guy. She should tell the guy asking that she doesn't really remember him. Now, if he's a doofus and still insists, she by all means should take his money and F him lol.
When I first started seeing escorts it was once or twice a year. This was during a time when references were king. I would remember the lady and time we spent together for a long time. These infrequent encounters meant a lot to me, especially if she was great. But as much as they meant to me, I wasn't much of a lasting memory for the escorts who were rotating through clients daily/weekly. I was naive at the time, so I did ask for references from ladies who might not have seen me for 6 months to a year. This was in a era where no one was charging for references. When I asked, I did sometimes get told, sorry it's been so long and I don't remember you. I appreciated the honesty and moved on. I would hate to think that in an era where some ladies are taking a fee that they would just take my money and not give me the same honest upfront answer as they did when money wasn't involved.
So lets start with your first paragraph:
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“This thread is full of straw man arguments, false equivalences, ad hominems, shifting burdens of proof, and other logical detours. There are so many that I don’t have the time to list them all.”
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Paige, let me fill you in on some things you may not be aware of. This board, and more specifically the guys who have posted in this specific thread, come from all different walks of life. Some are East Coast, some West, some see escorts often, some rarely, some are older, some younger, some see Indys that charge $1000 and up, some see girls at lower price points, some see FBSM women, some see K-girls, and on and on and on. Many are known to bicker with each other, even sternly at times. What I am getting at is that we are no monolith, and of course, neither are providers.
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And yet, what did you do but indiscriminately group all of us who disagreed with you together, dismissing our differing perspectives with a single sweeping judgment. Was there truly not a single point raised by anyone here that you could agree with? Not one? Not a single idea, or even one constructively critical comment, that you found remotely reasonable or worthy of acknowledgment? If so…you never said a word.
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It seems far easier for you to discard the collective input of many into the wastebasket of "stupid ideas" when you assume the role of sole arbiter, of what is right, what is just, what is sound, and what is fact. The arrogance of that is remarkable. To claim that every person who challenged your views was relying on “straw man arguments”, “false equivalencies”, or "ad hominem" attacks is a form of intellectual hubris I have very rarely seen by anyone.
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But lets move on, as the inconsistency in your arguments extend further. You took issue with corporate-world comparisons, but is it ok that I mention the fact that YOU were the first to introduce them in this thread? Let me quote you directly:
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“As an analogy, if a client called his accountant two years after a single tax filing to ask for a signed letter vouching for him, most professionals would either decline or bill for their time. Escorting is no different — it’s a business.” Ok, fair enough. It’s a business. Let’s go with that. Yet you seem to be perfectly comfortable using corporate analogies when they serve your purpose, but apparently take issue when the guys here, in this thread, do the same. That kind of selective framing is not only intellectually inconsistent, it undermines your own argument.
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But perhaps the most disappointing moment in your latest post was your decision to invoke misogyny as the supposed reason, at least in part, behind the criticism you received, if it's unfounded, as I believe it is since you pointed to zero examples of it. That’s not just unprofessional, it’s a deeply unserious way to engage with disagreement. And, if those comments weren't directed at me, or select others, you certainly didn't take one second of your time to specify to the contrary.
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As one who routinely pushes back on misogynistic comments here, to the point of being berated by a small, but very vocal contingent of women hating posters, I find this last post of yours incredibly insulting. I am sorry Paige, but raising valid objections to a highly unusual business practice is not “misogynistic” it’s called...“discourse.”
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Look, I’ve had the extraordinary privilege of learning from providers over many years. When I first entered this industry, I knew virtually nothing. Yet a remarkable woman, who remains a close friend to this day, welcomed me with both her genuine good nature and then, a bit later, mentorship. She quite literally and figuratively put her arm around me, guiding me through unfamiliar terrain and helping me find my footing here. I will always be deeply grateful to her for the generosity of her time, wisdom, and support. Without her, I doubt I would have been able to fully embrace the utter joy this lifestyle can bring. Later, when I had more experience, I was able to continue learning from other incredible p4p women who invested some time in me.
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I say all of that to say this…although these women are typically many years my junior, the insight and education I gained from them have been invaluable in helping me navigate the often unpredictable, and at times shark-infested, waters of this lifestyle as there really are people out to get us. That’s why it’s genuinely disheartening to see how dismissive you seem of the idea that providers might actually have something to learn from clients/businessmen in this thread.
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In my own RW management experience, I actively sought out client feedback, not because every suggestion was actionable, but because it was valuable to hear how the business was perceived from the outside. That’s how we learn Paige…by listening, by having an open mind and even considering ideas we may find odd to us. This whole concept seems foreign to you for reasons I still can’t figure out. You seem totally inept at accepting any critique, no matter who made it nor the respectful tone taken of the person making it.
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Imo, the dynamic between providers and clients should not be adversarial. It should be cooperative as our relationship is symbiotic. Unfortunately, your post reflects the very “us vs. them” mentality I’ve spent years pushing back against in this very space, and on many others, on many occasions with many...men.
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It seems to me you still have a great deal to learn and I def DON’T mean that as a criticism. I’m constantly learning myself. If a day passes without gaining a new perspective or discovering something I didn’t know before, I consider it a wasted 24 hours. All I would ask is that you take a moment to genuinely consider the input of those with significantly more business experience and acumen than you could possibly possess at your young age. Is that really too big of an ask?
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Remember, there are some things that do overlap between the corporate world and escorting. In fact, a very wise person once said something to that effect. I just found the quote:
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“Escorting is no different — it’s a business.”
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Peace
Robert,
Critiquing the logic of certain arguments is not the same as dismissing the people making them. I addressed patterns I saw in the reasoning, not the worth or character of the individuals here. There’s a difference between saying “this is a straw man” and “you are a straw man,” and I’m careful about that distinction.
On analogies: yes, I used one about an accountant billing for time. That was to illustrate a principle about labor having value regardless of outcome. The corporate job reference analogy offered by others was about equating escort references with employment references in terms of safety stakes and trust dynamics. Those are two very different categories. One is a fair comparison of a business principle; the other is a false equivalence on risk and context.
If there was any perception that I implied misogyny as the root of all criticism here, that’s not what I intended. My *SATIRICAL* closer was aimed at the broader tendency, not unique to this thread; to treat provider business boundaries as naïve or misguided until a client endorses them.
As for your point on learning from clients: I do, and I have... in all three of my business, two of which are celebrating 10 years and this one celebrating a milestone next year as well. But I digress. Listening doesn’t require agreement, and disagreement doesn’t mean the input wasn’t heard. In business, just like here, both sides can bring experience to the table without one being subordinate to the other.
We may not see this issue the same way, but I think we’ve both made our positions clear. And I’m fine with letting readers decide for themselves whether that’s because I’m “young” or simply unconvinced.
Paige
-- Modified on 8/14/2025 9:30:51 PM
So I'm not going to comment on the merit of everyone's arguments. I simply want to say that while I don't agree with everything she has said, Paige expresses herself beautifully. I hope she sticks around because she adds a lot to the board.
Paige is clearly an intellectual and wicked smart, as she often offers views that many men need to hear, including myself, even if we differ. Strike that...especially when we differ. Yes we need her to stay. I hope she does.
(I've been spending too much time on a different Discussion Board to know what I've missed here, but ...)
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I also enjoy and appreciate Paige's posts. I hope she stays and keeps posting.
Paige is clearly an intellectual and wicked smart, as she often offers views that many men need to hear, including myself, even if we differ. Strike that...especially when we differ. Yes we need her to stay. I hope she does.
I thought your points were well-considered and thoughtfully articulated, as usual. It’s encouraging to hear that you’ve learned from your clients over time. I imagine (and hope) many of those perspectives have served you well. I'm also sure you’ve encountered plenty of situations where clearly invalid ideas were offered up and swiftly dismissed by you, as they should be. Lol.
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In any case, I appreciate the thought and energy you put into this exchange. I also want to acknowledge how challenging it must be to hold your ground on this topic as the only woman in this thread who regularly engages with references. I say that knowing full well that this is an overwhelmingly male dominated forum, and on a subject that clearly stirred strong opinions. That’s no small feat, so major kudos to you.
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Yes, I think we’ve reached a natural conclusion here, and I’m perfectly fine with where we’ve landed. Agreeing to disagree is not a failure, in fact, it’s often the most honest and productive outcome.
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Lastly, let me thank you for the fact that you chose SW. It is your devotion to this lifestyle that allows us men to engage in fantasy and have much needed human contact and interaction. I really believe sex workers lower the temperature in the room, so to speak, and that is a great thing for society. I might forget this on occasion, but I promise, it comes to my mind virtually every day.
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Thanks again! Be well.
...Fun fact, Paige isn't going anywhere. It is funny as fuck though to watch the cucks lining up to plead for her to stay on the boards. This isn't to be meant in any detrimental way towards Paige but Jesus you guys. Devotion to the lifestyle??? Paige does business very well, but trust me, it's a business to her, not a lifestyle.
After a dozen or so reviews, most guys get over the fantasies about lifestyle and every provider being their BFF, but Robert has found a place where he belongs as "Simp-In-Chief" of this board. His sucking up to providers makes me want to heave, but it's also hilarious to see how he justifies playing the pansy for providers. He started on this thread being kind of "butch", but Paige has stripped him down and made him her bitch. If he wants his balls back, he's going to have to ask her nicely. Lol
Some of you take yourselves (and your posts on a hooker board) way too fucking seriously.
to see when or if this will finally become a "To the Right Margin" thread? I mean, some are making a half-hearted effort but I think they might have it in them for more. And, it's been a while since we're enjoyed a good one.