I'm genuinely interested in what you people think about this. Thoughtful replies only, please. That automatically excludes GOP Geezer, Quad, BreakerMorant, etc.....

Should we allow the market to work and punish the greedy imbeciles who created this mess and risk another 1930s style crash?

Or, should we bail out the greedy imbeciles to protect the millions of people who would suffer because of the greed those who work so hard to rig the game?

How about we just take bump up the $1 Trillion bailout to $3 Trillion and simply pay off everyone's mortgage. It's thoughtful but not so reasonable.

Treasury Secretary Hank Paulson came to the rescue early last Thursday morning. There would have been some serious serious stuff going down.  

Fixing this mortgage mess is going to cost about 8% of our annual GDP.  So fixing it is possible.

As for keeping it fixed, that's really simple.  Do away with fannie mae, freddie mac and HUD.  Those entities did more harm than good. Just like all other anti poverty programs.  They are a complete waste of money and many times do the exact opposite of what they are intended to do.  Oh sorry,for Wormwood and for you folks in Rio Linda, that means makes it worse.

-- Modified on 9/21/2008 8:52:04 PM

but neither of you addressed my question.

Thanks, too, for the explanation, Gambler. I was having a lot of trouble deciphering your post. lol

And, RWU, sure I can learn a bunch from those with whom I disagree but not much from knee-jerk loons who haven't had an original thought in years.

The middle class will pay for this chaos by having it's assets devalued or by getting way less from the state for each tax dollar paid. Or both.

Universal healthcare, College allowances; Oh Hell no! That's SOCIALISM!!!!

 Bail out the avarice addled elitist fucks who padded the pockets of every venal legislator or prosecutor who empowered or looked the other way as they practiced their machinations, legerdemain, and surreptitious dealings knowing that their Ponzi scheme would end as any Ponzi scheme will? ABSOLUTELY; they should be rewarded for their treachery and treason at the incredible expense of the American public.

These sanctimonious elitist fucks constantly proselytize personal responsibility, then the minute their yachts and country club memberships are in peril they want Joe Sixpack to subsidize and post the bail.

If a totally FREE MARKET is what they want they should also be FREE to loose EVERYFUCKINGTHING, and then seek employment mowing MY fuck'n lawn.


-- Modified on 9/22/2008 7:37:57 AM

. . . but with strict conditions. One condition being if these houses are too big to fail, break 'm up.

-- Modified on 9/22/2008 6:40:42 AM

provide housing for those who are undercapitalized.  There has to be a middle ground... like JAIL for all those who participated in creating this mess, appointing "shock" CEO's to come in a clean up the mess.... and salvaging the value in the paper.  sorry, but that would mean that lot's of folk in politics, AND the lending industry would just go to jail.

I general I am against govenment bailouts. It's goes against my free market beliefs. Inre to Freddie and Fannie, there really was no choice. Allowing either of them to fail was really not an option.

Henry Paulson made a very poor case on the weekend talk shows this weekend for the proposed bailout. I think there needs to be much more transparancy and much, much more accountability. There are definitely people that need to go to jail.

In theory the bailout will not be as costly as advertised, most of the properties will eventually rebound in price and the resulting resales will theoretically lessen the cost to taxpayers. In practice I doubt that will happen, I don't have the faith in government that you libbies have. I think it will end up being ever more expensive than advertised and in the end the cure may be worse than the disease.

In short, I wouldn't mind a little bloodletting, but my opinion doesn't matter. It's going to be what it's going to be, allowing massive failures this close to a national election isn't going to happen. Noone, especially no politician has that much balls.

fell - and started the chain reaction - are Private industry - THEY ARE NOT.  Fannie mae was thrown together back in the 30's to help finance home buying during the recovery from the depression... Freddie Mac is a tad younger - having been founded in 1970....

both are established by the govenment - both have an 18-member BOD - 5 members of which are appointed by the POTUS.... to say that they are not heavily linked to the government is a lie.  To say that the govenment does not have a culpable position in all of this is a lie.  To say that Obama, Biden, McCain, Bush41 and Bush43, Clinton and everyone else who has been in Washington DC over the past 20 years is innocent is a lie- or at least demonstrates an ignorance of the facts.

Fannie mae - "Fannie Mae has a federal charter and operates in America's secondary mortgage market to ensure that mortgage bankers and other lenders have enough funds to lend to home buyers at low rates."

Freddie Mac - "We connect Main Street – the residential mortgage market – to Wall Street – dealers and investors – through our mortgage purchase, credit guarantee and portfolio investment activities.

Our customers are predominately lenders in the primary mortgage market. Our activity in the secondary mortgage market supports a continuous flow of funds to the primary market, which leads to consumer benefits in the form of a steady flow of low-cost mortgage funding. This flow of funds helps moderate cyclical swings in the housing market, redistributes the flow of mortgage funds regionally throughout the U.S. and provides for the availability of mortgage funds at all times. In addition, the supply of cash made available to lenders through this process lowers mortgage rates, making homeownership affordable for more families and individuals"

In short, these entities (for they are not really private - in fact -Fannie Mae's charter ( http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode12/usc_sup_01_12_10_13_20_III.html) and Freddie Mac's charter are acts of congress... go figure...


AND THESE ARE THE SAME FOLKS WHO WANT TO BRING YOU GOVERNMENT REGULATED MANAGED AND PROVIDED HEALTHCARE.    Yeesh...

Get real - the whole lot of them needs to be locked up.... jailed.

"but that would mean that lot's of folk in politics, AND the lending industry would just go to jail."

Adam Smith was very clear that concentration of power is the enemy of the free market. Unfortunately, the nature of the free market is to consolidate more and more power into fewer and fewer hands. Ergo, the need for regulation.

I don't see a thing wrong with several politicians and at least the same number in the mortage industry going to jail. Not to mention the conuntless borrowers that commited outright fraud in order to secure mortgages that they were completely unqualified for.

maybe even more so. Business is more efficient than government and just as corrupt. We don't necessarily need more regulations, just more enforcement of the regs we already have.

We don't want government replacing business, in the sense of nationalizing industry or socialized health care, but we definitely need government oversight. We have antitrust laws for a reason, business is not to be trusted any more than government. Business needs to do what business does, and government needs to do what goveernment does, and part of what government does is to watch what business does.

And this is where I part ways with the republican party over the past 28 years. They have worked tirelessly to enable greater and greater accumulation of power by business interests.

As for big government, if it's necessary for government to be the watchdog over business interests, then as business grows more powerful so much government grow more powerful to provide meaningful oversight. It's great to say that we need to enforce the regulations which are already there but that means more inspectors, auditors, IRS folks, etc. doesn't it?

Before you say that we can do a better job just by increasing the efficiency of government, be aware that there is a great deal of research showing that government agencies such as Medicare are already more efficient than their private counterparts.