~Sorry I just can't resist~ ....  I am not the type to bring a wet blanket to the party (*I prefer to be the one to leave the wet blanket, or the blanket really wet...LOL*) BUT I just had to throw this out there.

Having missed the Republicans Convention and only witnessing it from abroad... I am not sure how it went over in Hotlanta. By now most of you know my opinions on arming America with spit balls... but for what it is worth, I'd love to hear the feedback on recent developments:

In regards to the article, I am really proud to know we have a Nation that I do not have to fear the safety and security of the future of our youth. I can not imagine having a school age child (*although I have 11 godchildren ... who are all Navy Brats LOL*) that I would have to doubt myself in sending to school without the confidence our Nation enjoys.

When 9/11 hit we were thrown into the reality that terrorist can hit at any time and anywhere. Yesterday,  the world was reminded of the harsh reality that many countries face daily,  in the fear of the safety of their own lives as well as that of their children.

Maybe I am a simpleton ... but I am so thrilled to know our Nation is dedicated to maintaining a tomorrow that is free from the fear that many are forced to dwell in daily.
...and maybe it is in light of my witness to the violence around the globe in the past few weeks, BUT DAMN.. I am glad to be back home. Just my personal thank you to everyone who appreciates a peaceful lifestyle and an even bigger thank you to all of the Americans who ensure that peace everyday. From my heart...  Candace    

-- Modified on 9/4/2004 10:52:23 AM

-- Modified on 9/4/2004 10:53:36 AM

Try this link.

Sorry, this link doesn't work either. Your guess is as good as mine. Must be a corrupt file since it originated in DC. LOL
Any how folks, go to CNN website, that might work better!

One man's rebel is another man's freedom fighter. History applies the correct label to whoever wins in the end. I'm sure the British saw the American colonist in a whole different light back in 1776 than we do today. To be a little closer to home, to many Southern Confederates, they saw themselves as protecting their home from Northern aggression and the Union Army saw them as traitors to the union and United States.

I'm not trying to stir it up and Lord knows I think this is the best place in the world to live and being ex-military I have put my beliefs into action for over 16 years. There are and will always be regional and global problems. We as HUMAN BEINGS have got to find a better way of solving them that does not include violence for that is almost a never ending cycle of hate. You can kill a man sure as dead with a bullet but his ideals and beliefs are a lot harder to kill with force.

Over in Chechnya, you have a group of people who feel they are under represented, oppressed and exploited by the majority (sound familiar). To the extremist in the Chechen cause, violence may seem like the quickest and only way to get the liberty and freedom they say they want. BY NO MEANS do I believe the ends justify the means, but this world is getting much too small for us to be at each other's throats over may seem like petty differences. The Chechnya rebels have been linked to Al Qaeda which is nothing new, but they are not the Islamic fundamentalist those nuts are. These nuts are nationalist zealots which may make them even more dangerous to the Russians because they are part of that country. But to them they look at Russia as an occupying force that doesn't belong. If you were a Chechen what would you do? How would you feel.

It’s not as cut and dry anymore as saying they are evil and we are good because we are the strongest. I'm sure that is how Russia sees it and may make a big mistake in more innocent lives. We in this country wrap ourselves up in the flag when it suits us. But nobody really looks at why is it that this country is viewed so negatively by many of the other countries of the world. Sure there is a jealousy thing there but that is such a small part of it. We have done a lot to bring about the resentment we have today. Do I feel safer in a global sense since we went back into Iraq. Nope.

I wish the government would have let my generation do and finish the job when we were there instead of these poor boys getting stuck in urban warfare which our military is not designed to handle. Our military is a command and seize operation. It is not set up to police and pacify a country. At least when I was there we had popular support of the world, (even though we attacked one monarch to put another back in power). Hell many units were a half day ride into Baghdad with no resistance and they called us off because it looked like a slaughter. Well excuse me but Marines don't get into fair fights, we fight to win and protect the lives of our fellow Marines, period. Now a new generation has to die for what we were willing to finish. If we would have done it then would there have been a 9/11? Yes.

Bottom line, our boarders, not our politics is our best defense from terrorism. We have a population that despite our differences, get along. Our neighbors, Canada and Mexico, do not conflict with our domestic goals so we are cool with them for the most part. To me, I really don't feel safer with a Republican or Democrat in the White House in relation to terrorism. Neither have the heart and courage to look at the big picture as to why are we so hated. It can't just be our freedom and wealth these other countries hate. We have always had and always will have a foreign policy that tries to look at things through American eyes only without understanding how that impacts people who have to suffer the consequences. Our global arrogance is what contributed to the state of the world we live in today.

Again, we need to be more creative in solving the world’s problems than putting guns in boy’s hands to protect the interest of an older generation. To be honest I'm surprised this little adventure abroad hasn't caused more of a backlash since no WMD were found to date. If it was me I would plant some and then say "look here it is!"

Now before everyone gets all puffy and such. This is just my opinion since the lady decided to turn sex into politics. Not a good combination at all! Instant woody drain. So please all who reply, don't blow a gasket one way or another. Breathe before you vent back. I know I rambled but I bet it sparks though and conversation and that is the intent.

Fire away

It's nice to hear a reasoned response to a complicated problem. In what passes for discourse in our over charged atmosphere today, two people screaming at each other that black is white or up is down there seems to be no place for reason. As for Senator Miller a person that cared to could dispel his misleading rants in 5 minutes. He is not intererested in the common good mearly mendacity. If you don't post on the political board you should, reason is badly needed there. Bob

And thank you chuck for your thoughts...  ~C

Sorry. I didn't even know there was a politics board.

-- Modified on 9/4/2004 8:31:26 PM

I didn't either!!! The lady, Candace, was merely expressing shock at the cruel deaths of innocent children, who should never have been held hostage to those who had a gripe with the government. There is never any reason to involve children, some of them who are merely babies, in a war between those of differing politics. Women, innocent children and babies are sacrosanct, except for those women who strap explosives to their bodies, and are willing to maim and kill others, no matter how innocent. Enough said! As far as I'm concerned, there is no religious or political ideology to justify such actions!
Just my $.02

There's a bunch of bad guys that are about to be reminded in a HUGE way that Russia is NOT the west.

Those Ruskies are RUTHLESS bastards when they wanna be. In the former USSR, there is no "nice nice".  There is no "Guantanamo".  There is no ACLU, Democratic Party or Miranda rights.  Instead, think of Cosa Nostra but on steroids, and 5-times as ruthless.

Putin is now on a witch-hunt for corrupt people in positions of authority. And as he "cleans up" these adverse elements that are aiding and abetting the terrorists, unless they're prominent people, they will individually "disappear", be tortured, and then shot mafia style. No trial, no ACLU, no nothing.  Russia is NOT the U.S..  

Case in point, it's no secret that a favorite Soviet technique to discourage terrorist factions back in the day was to kidnap relatives of key faction leaders, and then send them back home to their families over the course of several days or weeks -- one body part at a time.  Quite simply, Radical Islam won't f&ck with people who are crazier than they are. Human rights are "optional" to the Ruskies -- not required like the West.  Bin Laden & co are pussies next to these guys.

Some KEY Ruskies are really PISSED. And it's a GRASS-ROOTS kind of PISSED.  Now imagine scores of vigilanties coming out of nowhere like roaches in a sugar factory -- terrorists can't hide from these.  It's NOT a good day to be a terrorist in the former USSR.  Ruthless, ruthless, ruthless -- the bad guys are about to get a clue.

-- Modified on 9/5/2004 12:54:35 AM

1. Vote this year, everybody!
Candace and others should consider discounts for those who will be voting.  It is absurd that this country has one of the lowest voting rates of any democracy in the world.

2. For my part-It wasn't  as much what was heard at either the DNC or RNC, but what was seen.  Eyes don't lie.  When someone as notoriously apolitical as Tommy Franks shows up, notice should be taken.  He was there because he knows.  His insight into our collective vulnerablity to those who seek to harm us is undoubted.  That his concern is so profound to cause him to make an apperance should be heeded.

Thinking that one side is always right and the other side always bad is the crux of the problem.

Put it in any context you want.

Violence against violence has never solved any problem ever otherthan getting innocent people getting hurt and those started it walking away untouched.

Following anyone and anything without questioning the ratinale has lead to many atrocities  to the extent it hurt the blind fools that followed.

History is the great teacher. Then agian, who is got the time to read when one can yell half baked, distorted truth suing many media.

By the way nothing against anyones opinion (especially Candace), just don't care for one sided stories, too much of it going around. We need to start thinking for ourselves based on our own facts.

Peace

Sorry Mod but I had to respond real quick:

Before you say Puttin is going to rip them a new one because you THINK Russia is so strong, remember, this little rebellion has been going on for ten years. You would have thought they would have came down really hard after the opera house incident last year.

What they proved is that they are not trained in counter terrorism and as a result many innocent people were killed in the gas attack when the military stormed the theater. Many civilians were killed. Would American's have sat by is such an operation went so bad and civilians were killed? There would still be Senate investigations for the next 10 years.

Would ten years of this have taken place under the Soviet Union, yes. The Soviets never really had control of the Siberian and most areas in the Eastern parts of the country. And if they were so ruthless Afghanistan would not have turned into their version of Vietnam.

Never under estimate the will of a man would is willing to die for something. You may not agree with his view, but usually those who are the most commited are the ones who are willing to see it through to the end. Don't think it will be as easy for Russia as you think Again read the latest CNN article. This has been going on for 10 years and I think they granted autonomy to the Katistan (sp), area when they rose up in force about 5 years ago. Would the US grant autonomy to Lets say Michigan if they didn't want to be part of the Union? That is called a civil war.

-- Modified on 9/5/2004 5:13:46 AM

not paying attention to history.  The last 5 years is the current chapter of an old and long book.  This is post USSR payback.  The Chechenen people suffered years of blood-baths and carnage from the cassacks before the formation of the Soviet Union.  In their minds they are revenging past deaths and fighting for their home.  As evidenced by the brutality of Chechenen terrioritst/fighters they are at least bad-assed as the Russian solders sent to pursue them.

There are lots of problems, but the biggest one, IMHO, is that rational thought goes right out the window. We are dealing all over the world with terrorists who place no value on human life, including their own. In fact, they believe that they are acting in a way that will elevate themselves-their "martyrdom" will take them to a higher plane. Thus, there is no way to reaSon with them, or even compromise. How else do you explain men, women, and children strapping bombs to themselves and climbing on to a bus full of innocent people? None of this is new. 9/11 proved that no one is completely safe. We can no longer count on the oceans to insulate ourselves from these fanatics. That is one reason why we need to be nice to each other everyday. We need to live our lives respecting each other (such as not flaming on this damn board!). And most of all, we need to thank those that are put in harm's way everyday so that we have the freedom to even have this damn thread! Just my .02.

If you felt oppressed and felt you had no real options to fight back at your oppressors, what would you do? To bring it closer to home, if you were poor, had a family, no money and your children were hungry, all of your resources for relief were closed to you, would you steal to get what your family needed. Desperation will make people consider extreme options.

By not looking at the reason why someone would consider suicide as a sacrifice toward their goals is like what was mentioned above, being very short sighted and narrow minded. We all hate the act but has anyone really truly tried to understand the why? It is not as simple as they hate democracy or they are religious ideologist and this their free ticket to paradise. To look at them that way make them seem less human and easier to hate. They to have families, dreams and desires. To be willing to die for something you believe in is a very powerful statement. They do value human life. Have you ever considered that in their mind, their sacrifice might bring about change for their people as a whole or do you truly believe they are willing to kill themselves only for the 20 virgins and place in paradise crap? That is too simplistic of a view for a complex problem. "If you don't see your opponent as your equal, or in many cases, human, then you've given up an option in defeating them which is dialogue" (San Su)

We all applaud the men and women who protect our freedom, but how many of us would truly want to put ourselves or our children in harms way. Let’s be real clear that many enlisted men and women in our armed services are there not primarily because they want to protect democracy. Trust me I know. Many are there to learn a skill, put some money in their pocket because college is not an option, and travel (yeah right LOL). Notice I said enlisted men and not officers. There is a more lucrative career path for them and officers already have achieved their educational goals. I by no means am saying that our men and women in uniform are not brave or can not get the job done but their reason for fighting is to protect their buddies butt right now. They are not thinking about the political reason they are there.

So you have to ask, who is more committed to the fight? Hard to tell but the longer we stay in Iraq the more people will rally toward those who would love to see their country go back to what it was because in the average guys mind, we are now invaders instead of liberators. How would you feel if you were the average Iraqi citizen and just had your country blasted back to the stone age regardless of the reason why we came? Frustrated people need a focal point to vent at and the longer we have a military presence there that anger and many in the region will turn toward the US and I think that is what we are not seeing. We can not use post WWII tactics of occupation in a modern world.

The role of the military is to protect our way of life and is used as a tool of diplomacy. The role of civilians in this is to make sure if we put our people in harms way that it is for the right reason and we have the moral courage to set a clear goal and see it through to the end. The world has changed and people have to change as well as far as finding better ways to deal with complex problems.

The US has thrown punches at third world countries dating back to the days of gun boat diplomacy. We should not have been surprised that one day they would punch back. It just shocks me that our intelligence community was not better prepared and all tried to point fingers at the others for not doing the job they are paid to do. There is a lot of blame to go around from Bill Clinton for not getting Osahma when he had SEVERAL opportunities to do so to the current administration for under estimating the will of an enemy to strike at us when all the evidence was at hand. But the same pre-warnings were there prior to Pearl Harbor and as in that case the information was not analyzed correctly or believed. Hell some even say Roosevelt let the attack happen so to finally force Congress to get the US into the fight for WWII.

Never once did I say I don't support our troops because I have been there with them. Never once did I say terrorism is a not major problem for it will be the defining moment of this and future generations to solve on an international scale. Never once did I say there is no rational way for 9/11 to be justified but the thing is, our enemies declared war on us years ago and we never took them seriously. What I am saying is that we do need to start getting serious and start looking truthfully as to how we got to where we are and if the policies we have in place make the world safer or more violent and divided in the long run.

Okay I'm done with this thread and PROMISE not to respond anymore in the Atlanta room but I couldn't resist. I guess I'm too passionate about problems when people don't look at the big pictures and go for simple answers to complex situations. Please Bosstone don't take that as a jab at you.

I do think that Hitler and the Nazi party, the ultimate terrorists of the past century, were pretty much destroyed, not by diplomacy, as Chamberlain would have had it, but with force and violence, as Winston Churchill and Roosevelt, along with Stalin, decided.  I'm sure that if we had all sat down at a table with Hitler, as Chamberlain did, he would have said "Oh, you are right, I'm a terrible person and will quit murdering innocent people.

I don't disagree with you. It is a complex problem-one that we have difficulty understanding because we have been lucky enough to have not had to walk a mile in the shoes of those we are talking about. But I DO have a problem with the "why's" of much of this. Are we there as the great liberators, as this administration wants us to believe? Are we there as oppressors, solely to serve the needs ( i.e. money) of Cheney, Bush the elder, and others from Halliburton. I stand by my statement that terrorists do not value human life. That is not a simplistic statement. It is purely the end result of all the things that you brought up in your post. Once again, aren't we privileged to even be able to have this discussion?

Many thanks to all who commented....

As many of you may have gathered my emotional state was a wreck after returning from my last trip. ~My intention was not to turn this lighter side of the discussion board into a hot bed~

Heaven knows this isn't my idea of a "hot bed" *LOL* ....

BUT, on the same note, such passionate responses ... especially from you logical ones of our species, was unbelievably instrumental in my emotional recovery. Just a quick THANK YOU to everyone who challenged my thinking and comments. kisses Candace

And the situation has only gotten worse from Russia perspective.  Before he came to power, there were no acts of terror on Russian soil, now about 90% of the acts are on Russian soil or in Russian airspace.  If this is controlling terrorists then Putin has failed and will continue to fail as long as he adheres to the same tactics.
    One of the most brutal aspects of how terrorists operate is that they only see their cause as important.  Many do not care about their lives in the sense that most civilizations would expect them to.  They also hold the lives of their women and children secondary to their cause.  Terrorism is a difficult behavior to deal with because in order to deal with it effectively, a government has to throw off all the shackles and behave as brutally as the terrorists (this would mean for example, that if a big terrorist operative was hinding among women and children, a certain number of those women and children, even if innocent, would have to die so that the operative is killed).  Fighting terrorists at their level is a difficult decision to make, we have not chosen that route and I think that it would be difficult for the Russia that exists today to choose such a route.  
    The stark reality is that Putin faces complex choices and the tools that he has available to deal with them have some limitations.

-- Modified on 9/5/2004 7:07:29 PM

Had a standing army, that fought like an army.  The exception is probaly the SS, which any person should be able to conclude was a terrorist organization that murdered millions of innocent people.
    People like Bin Laden and the Chechen terrorists leaders do not have standing armies.  They recruit the ignorant or angry to carry out their acts of murder.  Investigators believe that the three women that killed in Russia (two planes blown up in flight and about 10 people killed at a subway stop) before the school seizure were widows or the kin of men that had been killed fighting the Russians in Chechnya.  How do you identify people like that to prevent them from acting.  Do you kill all widows of men who died fighting against the Russians?  Not all of the widows will kill in response to being made a widow, some may value the future of their kids more than taking revenge.
    Putin and anyone else that deals with modern terrorism faces complex choices.  Those choices are not as simple as finding the will to take on an invading, standing army.  Do I have any answers?  No.  My belief is that we will have to somehow find rational people who will go on missions to find and eliminate terrorists leaders, but those people almost certainly will not return and they have to accept that as a condition for them going on the missions - this is a tough choice for all concerned, but that is essentially how terrorists operate.  One thing that is true about the type of terrorists that we face today is that they are calculating, reasonably intelligent and determined and will start the day of their terrorist acts knowing that they will die, they accept that as something that has to happen for them to carry out their acts of murder - except for disfunctional nutcases, we do not have people with that state of mind in our society.

-- Modified on 9/5/2004 6:51:02 PM

But to answer your point.  Apolitical military people showed up at both conventions.  What does that mean?  It probaly means that by showing up, they are no longer apolitical.  So the "revelation" that one gets from watching a certain person show up at a particular convention probaly depends upon the watcher's on political point of view.
    Fortunately, military leadership by and large is apolitical, of if not that, at least they keep their mouths shut while serving.  We are very fortunate for that behavior.

-- Modified on 9/6/2004 12:05:35 PM

Adolf Hitler in His Own Words:

Cruelty is impressive. Cruelty and brutal strength. The masses want it. They demand it. They need the thrill of terror to make them shudderingly submissive. -Adolf Hitler


The joy of killing brings men together. -Adolf Hitler


When I came to power, I did not want the concentration camps to become old age pensioners homes, but instruments of terror. -Adolf Hitler


Hate, hate, and more hate. There is nothing that sustains you like hate! -Adolf Hitler


My morality is that of the magnificent blond beast, roaming wantonly in seach of prey and victory. -Adolf Hitler


Yes, we are barbarians. We want to be barbarians. It is an honorable title. -Adolf Hitler


We shall not capitulate... no never. We may be destroyed, but if we are, we shall drag a world with us... a world in flames. -Adolf Hitler


If the war is to be lost, the nation also will perish. There is no need to consider the basis even of the most primitive existence. On the contrary, it is better to destroy it, and to destroy it ourselves. -Adolf Hitler


In the end, the German people were unworthy of living....they are not worthy of me.... which is why I decided they must all perish. -Adolf Hitler


Remind anyone of other philosophies?  Yes, In the end Nazi Germany had a standing army. But in the beginning it was the words and actions of an "evil doer".  If it had been recognized at that point as what it was, the standing army would not have been such, and millions of people would not have perished.  Do we want to wait for this to happen again?  Stand on the sidelines and watch people spout hatred for other, different, groups of people while they build their power base based on fear, ignorance, and hatred.  Or, do we want to address it now, rather than later?

"Remind anyone of other philosophies?  Yes, In the end Nazi Germany had a standing army. But in the beginning it was the words and actions of an "evil doer".  If it had been recognized at that point as what it was, the standing army would not have been such, and millions of people would not have perished.  Do we want to wait for this to happen again?  Stand on the sidelines and watch people spout hatred for other, different, groups of people while they build their power base based on fear, ignorance, and hatred.  Or, do we want to address it now, rather than later?"

    You put up a good paragraph, but you apparently missed one key point.
    Not a single person that posted replies to the thread implied that we should look the other way while evil people grow stronger, exactly the contrary was the case.  The basic issue appears to be what is the most effective way to fight terrorism and the point that was made very clearly was that fighting it with our military, as configured now, will not work to the extent that we need to eliminate terrorism as a problem.