This is the most fucked up news story I've read in quite some time. It's fucked up this happened, and trying to prosecute this just piles on the fucked up.

Are you really trying to tell me that a 10 year old kid knew what he was doing? Did you know what the hell you were doing when you were in the 5th grade?

You know what I remember from 5th grade? Playing dodgeball. I remember one time I caught the ball, and was about to throw the ball back against the other team. Right before I threw it, some girl grabbed the ball away from me. I said, "hey! give it back!" and reached for the ball, and she put the ball behind her back at the last second. My hand didn't change course, and I ended up with a hand full of tit. 5 other boys all turned around, pointed at me, and said, "ew!"

Try to remember what being in 5th grade was like for you, and tell me again that this kid should be prosecuted. He's already going to be traumatized for life. Does the DA really need to pile on?

It's incredibly sad all this happened. But every once in a while, shitty parents get what they deserve. It's too bad this kid will never have a loving mom who wasn't idiotic enough to let this sort of thing happen.

-- Modified on 1/4/2011 11:36:59 PM

I know quite a lot about ASPD, as I've mentioned often in my previous posts.

You're quite right that psychopathy often goes unnoticed early on, but it's quite a leap to assume this kid will develop ASPD. If this kid was torturing animals, then he probably will (do we know that he was?), but having some problems growing up is rather normal.

"So yes, I'm serious. This child doesn't belong on the streets until and unless he can learn that murdering someone isn't the way to go about things."

It is an INCREDIBLE leap to assume that this kid knew what he was doing, and demonstrates a complete lack of understanding of how a young mind operates.

Lastly, let me just say that psychologists don't have a very good understanding yet of what causes most mental disorders. Some, like schizophrenia is highly suspected to be genetic. Obsessive Compulsive Disorder is thought that it's cause could be genetic or environmental.

However, one disorder they have a firm grasp on it's causes is Anti-social Personality Disorder. That is entirely caused by environmental circumstances. When a parent fails to give the child affection (parent/child bonding), the synapses and receptors in the empathy center of the child's brain do not become connected, and the child will have no ability to feel empathy, sympathy, compassion, etc, for the rest of that child's life.

So regardless of whether this child will become a psychopath or not, this woman's death was her own damn fault.

-- Modified on 1/5/2011 1:57:45 AM

         Depending on that age limit, a minor can still be prosecuted by juvy court for criminal offenses. I think some states say a child under 6 is presumed incapable of criminal intent, but a child of 10 in most states would be subject to criminal punishment of the juvy court. So this is not particularly remarkable.

     I vaguely remember that the defense of infancy for federal crimes is under 10, so if this is correct, this kid could have been prosecuted had he committed a federal crime.

     The death penalty for kids? well, that is a different story, subject to constitutional restrictions.

Just because he's ten, doesn't mean he shouldn't be made responsible for his actions. At ten, a child is old enough to know at least part of what he's doing. If he watched the news at all, or any kind of cop show (or played most video games that are out there), he KNEW going into his mother's room that a bullet to her brain would kill her.

Hell, a child at TWO knows what he's doing when he says NO to his parents.

Granted, the hope is that he'll get help while incarcerated. However, if he's going to kill someone he supposedly loves - just because he didn't want to do some minor chore - then he needs to be taken off the streets. And taken off NOW, when he CAN benefit from help, is better than later when he might kill his teacher or his girlfriend or whoever.

The f'd up part is that he deliberately killed someone. Not that he was prosecuted.

...you believe when children do wrong it's the child's fault. I believe when children do wrong it's the parent's fault.

Obviously "something" has to be done, or do you suggest we just forget the whole thing?

And I explained why in my previous post. But, to go further, this kind of thing doesn't just "begin" in the teen years. It often goes unnoticed much sooner than that (although his grandmother mentioned that the boy had been having problems). Some of the more famous "tells" are when a child - a CHILD - tortures small animals, or constantly pulls little meannesses on his siblings, and so on.

Just because you and I grew up in a more innocent era and under normal circumstances, it does NOT mean that there aren't children who AREN'T normal no matter how they're raised. It's an inherent part of their psyche. Even normal children are quite capable of lying and cheating to get their way. Some, unfortunately, take it further and - yes - murder to get their way, or to get out of doing something.

They're called psychopaths for a reason (although the more current name for them is Antisocial Personality Disorder). These children exhibit the same "abnormal lack of empathy combined with strongly amoral conduct but masked by an ability to appear outwardly normal" as do adult psychopaths. Because they're children, they tend to be patted on the head and told, "It'll all work out." A psychopath is one from the time they learn how to get their way in the world.

So yes, I'm serious. This child doesn't belong on the streets until and unless he can learn that murdering someone isn't the way to go about things. HE'S traumatized? Try the rest of the family; he killed the mother of his sister and brother!

...but prosecuting this kid is going to fuck him up worse.

He ought to get a hell of a lot of therapy. Until someone knows what's going on in this kid's head, then you can determine a reasonable course of action. If this kid has signs of ASPD, then there's nothing that can be done for him, except put him on anti-psychotics like Lithium and hope for the best. Usually the best will involve criminal behavior as an adult. If he doesn't have signs of ASPD, then he has a chance, but not without a hell of a lot of support. But if he has signs of ASPD, then this kid's father should at the very least be charged with neglect, if not the murder of this woman.

One thing I can guarantee though, is that it would not harm this kid to give him a loving and nurturing family to take care of him. Judging by what happened, I'm guessing he hasn't had very much of that in his life. If he's put in juvie, then his life is essentially ruined. And it strikes me is horribly immoral to destroy someone's entire life for decision they made at 10 years of age, when they likely were not aware of the consequences.

-- Modified on 1/5/2011 9:31:45 AM

often outweigh the harm done to a child that isn't "savable"?

Some kids come out of the most horrible childhoods as giving, caring members of society. Some kids come from loving, caring environments, with two parents that love them, and still come out "all fucked up". There are no absolutes on the subject.

My point is, murder is a crime that simply cant' be ignored. "Childred" can be quited dangerous, as anyone who has ever found themselves in "gang territory" can attest. It's not the forty year old you have to worry about, it's the fourteen year old that will kill you for no apparent reason.

because we end up in discussions like this where neither of us are giving an inch.

Even at 10 I knew that killing someone was wrong. I'm willing to bet that so did you.

You believe children can do no wrong. I believe they can and do.

Let's leave it at that.

-- Modified on 1/5/2011 2:39:14 AM

What I'm saying is that by prosecuting this 10 year old kid, it's going to fuck him up worse, and that will increase the risk to society.

When he was arrested, the pigs put this kid in handcuffs for Christ's sake. A 10 year old in handcuffs. Are these pigs such chickenshits that they think they can't handle a 10 year old? The trauma that kid is going to suffer just from being handcuffed is going to scar him for life.

I'm not saying that this murder should be ignored. It should be a giant wake up call for everyone involved. But if you're so stupid as to give a 10 year old a rifle for Christmas, and he then blows your brains out, then I gotta think you had it coming.

The rifle wasn't the problem, he could have just as easily bashed her over the head with a brick. The article did say he killed her in her sleep.

I am not going to get my panties in a wad because a murderer of any age was led away in cuffs. I think your dislike of LE is getting the better of you here. I think the "trauma" of being handcuffed pales in comparison of having just killed ones mother.

Just where does it say how the mother was a "bad parent" and somehow brought this on herself? or are you just trolling for reactions?

"The rifle wasn't the problem, he could have just as easily bashed her over the head with a brick. The article did say he killed her in her sleep."

I didn't see that he killed her in her sleep. That's not good. I doubt though that he could have killed her without a firearm. The rifle isn't the issue. Giving a kid who wasn't capable of handling it responsibly is.  

"I think the "trauma" of being handcuffed pales in comparison of having just killed ones mother."

You're quite right, but why pile on?

"Just where does it say how the mother was a "bad parent" and somehow brought this on herself?"

10 year olds aren't murderers unless the parent fucked up. Yes, I'm going to be an absolutist on this. If it was an accident, the parent fucked up. If the kid didn't know what he was doing, then the parent fucked up. If the kid has a screw loose, then the parent fucked up.

There is such a thing as a "bad seed", I have no idea if this is the case in this instance, but some kids/people are just FUBAR, no one's fault, they are just born that way. Society needs to be protected from the Bundys, Dahmer, et al of the world.

Who is to say that this ten year old won't grow up to be another mass murderer? We simply can't make blanket statements that all childred need the benefit of the doubt, some kids are so fucked up, even at a young age that they are simply too dangerous to be inflicted on the rest of society. Again, I am not speaking of this case in specific, but it does not appear that you are either.

Some people are just born with a screw loose, blame the parents if you choose, but it doesn't alter the facts that some people can not and should not be permitted loose in society. Some people just arent' "fixable". Environment or genetics, I'll leave that for others to argue about, it still doesn't change anything.

As I said previously, ASPD is one of the few mental disorders that they have a clear understanding of how it's caused, and I've already covered how it's caused. By the by, Bundy and Dahmer both had ASPD. But most psychopaths just have a lot of issues with drug use and petty crimes. They're more likely to steal your car stereo than kill you.

Clinicly speaking, this kid is too young to have ASPD. But there are signs here that he will develop it. And the ONLY way he could have developed it is from his parents not showing him any affection from the time he was born until he was about 4 years old. This is why I say the father should be questioned in regards to neglect.

The sad thing is that ASPD can't be fixed. Once those synapses have been closed off, the likelihood that they'll ever get connected are slim to none.

"Are you really trying to tell me that a 10 year old kid knew what he was doing? Did you know what the hell you were doing when you were in the 5th grade?"

If I didn't I would be reminded or made aware of it in no uncertain terms. There were several times that I knew what I was doing and hoped I would get away with it. I didn't! And, soon learned that I wouldn't.

Myself and all my friends had our own guns by the age of this young fella, and we never shot anyone. One of my friends, had a father that was very abusive physically and emotionally, yet my friend never shot him. Go figure!

Now, I'm only addressing your question. I'd have to have much more info. in order to determine what would be suitable punishment.

Because you had the skills to use a firearm responsibly at the age of 10, then all children have that ability?

Matt is actually stating it quite well. The gun is not to blame, and I have no idea if the parent is either. We simply don't have enough of the facts to discern culpability. You are the only one that seems to be jumping to conclusions and making broad sweeping statements.

and Matt, please go fuck yourself. I hate having to take your side, but you are absolutely correct. lol Ten year olds either having firearms or at least having access to firearm has/had been a fact of life for generations. Face it, you have no idea what actually happened, and neither do the rest of us, but you are the only one leaping to conclusions based on shit you are simply "pulling out of your ass"

homogeneity, in mankind, to allow for a statistically significant percent of the population to abide by the legal statutes against killing another person. And, that goes for those under the age of 12.