Glad to wear the mantle since it is proclaimed by you.
look at the source of news you cite.

Boeing's move to SC was potentially illegal, as evidenced from link below.

Willy, feel free to chime your 2 cents in.

nothing more than union payback to the dems for getting Obama elected, and pure political posturing and bullshit by the NLRB, your IQ could come into question as well.

For your enlightment and entertainment, consider a cargo airline you've probably never heard of. You may have heard of a top fuel funny car/dragster owner named Connie Kalitta. His son also raced a top fueler. Connie used his NHRA winnigs to start a cargo freight company, Kalitta Airlines. He had a fleet of DC-8, and B-727 freighters. He was very much on the down low, and always in trouble with the FAA, but managed to stay in business. His pilot group was worked hard and paid little. They wanted to organize. Connie told them that if they did, he would sell the company operating certificate, it's assets, and terminate their employment. They did, and he did. Sold everything to Kittyhawk Airlines, (probably another you've never heard of), which went bankrupt 3 years later.

Kalitta is back in business with a new air carrier certificate, flying 16 B-747's, primarily for military contracts. He bought a closed air force base in Michigan, lock, stock, and barrel, as his operating base. The new pilots are threatening to organize, and he is threatening to, once again, sell everything.

So, I'm sure that Boeing can do pretty much what they want to, and get away with it, union or not. BTW, how much money has Boeing given to the DNC? That may well be the end argument.

DOCUMENTED evidence that Boeing was building NC plant in retaliation against the Unions in Washington state. AGAINST THE LAW ! Sounds like a case of "union busting" to me. Ohhh, wait----it comes from the New York Times------a non credible source & one of "THEIR" papers! Lemme guess, you also a fan of Governor Walker ?!---------LOL ! What  next do your "GOP mentors" propose, Jersey ?! Abolishing minimum wage & child labor laws ?.

Perhaps next time Boeing won't be so dumb & will cover its "illegal tracks" better.

Lastly, my father was an aerospace engineer at Boeing, so I know a bit about the subject.

-- Modified on 4/23/2011 1:45:39 PM

Boeing is a private company. As a company, they enjoy certain rights. In order to get these rights they must get PERMISSION from the state to EXIST. The state has the right to tell them any damn thing they please. What's more, they have the right to revoke their corporate charter at any time for any reason. If you wnat the right of limited liability, then you've got to play by the rules of the game.  

It's nice to see the National Labor Relations Board act like they have a purpose.

...then we should bar the importation of their products, including at airports. See who will fold then.

Boeing is not a private company but is a public corporation listed on the stock exchange.

      Boeing is incorporated in the State of Delaware. Neither the NLRB nor the federal government plays any role in Boeing’s right to incorporate – that is totally a function of the state of incorporation. Boeing does not need federal permission to exist – all they have to do is file a certificate of incorporation and otherwise comply with Delaware requirements to incorporate. If they do, incorporation cannot be refused.

     Yes, the state can tell them any damn thing they please but Boeing is free to ignore what they say.

     No, the state cannot revoke their charter at any time for any reason; the Secretary of State can do so for non-payment of franchise taxes. While Delaware courts retain jurisdiction to forfeit the charter for abuse or nonuse of corporate powers, this almost never happens.  

yes, Boeing...company which makes the 'dreamliner' wants to build them in South Carolina...BUT BHO apologists say NO CAN DO, Mr Boeing. You gotta make them in Seattle. Since when does the govt tell a private corp what to do...BHO and his crowd think that is their 'right'.  makes you wonder y all these lefties love hitching their wagon to this do nothing but talk prez.

If BHO wants to contest it, shut it down and build them outside the contry. There is NOTHING he can do about that and when he sees jobs leaving the country, he will fold up like a cheap suit just like he has on so many other things.

Like I said before, UNIONS are one of the biggest problems this country has.

sorry, but you've misunderstood the article you cited.  What matters is this division is a subsidiary of  the Boeing parent, which is a public company.  Therefore, it is part of a public company and that's all that counts.
PS:  Of course, this does not mean that nugay isn't a total douche, which, of course, he is.

-- Modified on 4/24/2011 12:16:33 AM

And what happens when our aircraft start failing and we can no longer get parts from Boeing. Suddenly aircraft travel is not possible in the US.

Then we have to go to relying on high speed rail....

Wait a minute, I read a book like that, what was it's name ???

OH YEAH!!  ATLAS SHRUGGED!!!

-- Modified on 4/23/2011 5:08:43 PM

a publicly owned corporation and not against Boeing Commercial Airplanes which is an incorporated division of Boeing.

     So while you are correct, I read the post - which refers only to Boeing - as addressing the publicly owned parent company that made the decision to transfer to SC and is the subject of the NLRB complaint.

     Not sure where the subsidiary is incorporated but the other points in my post remain the same - viz. the state cannot revoke the charter at any time for any reason - they have to have narrow statutory grounds most commonly non payment of taxes.

Your father was an engineer at Boeing? One of about 15,000 I would think, and that makes you an authority? Give me a fucking break. Boeing has facilities in several states already, California, Kansas, Illinois, Washington, Michigan, and your saying they can't build in South Carolina because that is union busting? Give me another break. Is Boeing attempting to have the Seattle union decertified...fuck no. Would Boeing like to see the union go away....hell yes. Has the union caused Boeing to lose business....hell yes. The NLRB has filed a 'complaint' against Boeing. Let's see how far that goes after Boeing donates another million or so dollars to the DNC. And you don't think the Boeing lobbyists in DC are not hard at work trying to get this matter quashed? In DC especially, money talks, and bullshit walks.

Boeing planes are already falling apart? I want you to do a little homework. What model 737 was it? When was it manufactured? Who operates the plane? How many cycles, i.e. takeoff's and landings has the plane experienced in its life? How many takeoffs and landings are there in the U.S per year? How many deaths per takeoffs and landings last year, the year before, the year before that?  What happens during an "A" check, "B" check, "C" check and "D" check?

Shit occasionally happens, but rarely in the airline industry, even with an outmoded FAA.

Most of the time you are logical and rationale. But sometimes you just say some of the most partisan ridiculous things.

because it's dramatic. I look at this statistically. There are over 10M takeoffs and landings in the U.S. per year, and our safety record is pretty damn good. But any time you have this kind of volume, you probably will have a few incidents and close calls. It is what it is!

Yes it was Boeing 737-300. The oldest of the Boeing 737 line still in operation in the U.S. I believe the older 737-100 and 200 are probably flying in some 3rd world country today. And Southwest will always have more cycles than other airlines due to their short haul operation, but they still have a damn good track record.

I have no idea if there was a potential manufacturing flaw. You would think there would have been a number of other significant incidents. I have no idea if the FAA will be hit with budget cuts. Let's wait until Boeing comes out with its findings before jumping to conclusions.

Re jumping to conclusions - remember in 1978 an American Airlines DC-10 crashed after takeoff from O'Hare. One of the wing engines fell off. Talk about front page headlines for days, and rightfully so due to the loss of life. But the initial reaction by the govt was to ground all DC-10s. Their initial conclusion was that there is something seriously wrong with ALL DC-10s. A year later, the conclusion was American Airlines maintenance was at fault for that particular aircraft. I think I read it on the 35 page of the LA Times, but not after McDonnell Douglas, and other airlines flying the DC-10 were trashed by the media.

So let's wait for the findings.

Boeing's planes are already falling apart.  Viz, the 737 whose roof peeled off a week or so ago out West.  Now here's a question.  The Republicans are demanding we cut virtually every government agency.  Will there be enough FAA inspectors to make sure planes don't start falling out of the sky?  And what about the air traffic controllers?  They're already falling asleep and under-staffed.  How safe will you feel when there are even less of them?  And if some overworked controller steers two jets into each other who will you blame?  Why, the government, of course!  It will all be Obama's fault.

The Boeing parent company has been headquartered for the past several years in Chicago.

or he deliberately mistated the facts to further his argument.

I vote for Willy be a liar (again), I can't believe that evenn Willy is so fucking clueless that he believes that the government, any government, state, local or federal, can simply revoke a charter without cause.

As Mari accurately points out, corporations are created by the states, and about the only way a corporation can be dissolved is for nonpayment of franchise taxes. There are a slew of other rules and regulations such as domesticating corporations in every state a company does business etc, which is just another example of people trying to tell us how business "should" be run in their opinion without knowing even the basics about how business actually works.

AAR, I vote that Willy is more a liar than an idiot, but that he also lacks the basic foundation of knowledge to debate topics such as this intelligently

boeing would lose, considering they have $200billion worth or work for the government currently scheduled.  and in regards to no more planes, the stop of flights over the US... hmmm i wonder if a rival competitor wouldn't mind picking up some contracts of boeing.  Airbus planes are pretty damn good, granted there newest plane has had some considerable delays.

that clouds his judgment whenever he posts about them. (And no, it is not like my plan to have the Second Amendment repealed, all guns confiscated, and to hold hearings on NRA membership - how dare you suggest that).

    Whether he is clueless, intentionally misrepresenting, or just does not want to bother learning the true facts, I don't know.  I usually let em go but this one was so off I had to pipe up.

I agree that the vote is out as to whether Willy is a liar or simply clueless, I am inclined to believe it is a bit of both, coupled with an unwillingness to actually learn the facts as they might disagree with his preconceptions about business.

The fact remains that it's almost impossible to engage him in conversation on certain subjects, his biases towards government and against the private sector combined with his propensity to tell bald faced lies when it suits just make it impossible to hold a conversation with the guy.

Ok, where do I forward my five bucks? lol

that are just "too stupid to talk with" but why do you only name the ones from the right side of the aisle, you have plenty on your side as well. Anthony, AF, and TrannyBoy are few names that immediately come to mind.

I don't view Snow or Cartman with that disdain, but I can't see myself having a conversation with Fair_Use or Nuguy anytime soon.

and yes Mein gets a pass for the very reasons you cite.

OK, since you, too, are usually a reasonable guy, I went and did some homework that probably proves you're right about the Southwest plane.  See the story below, but the jist is it was built in 1996 and had 39,000 takeoffs and landings.  It also says the defect may have been in the manufacturing  process.
But I think my main point still holds: there was a flaw that should have been discovered.  And if we have fewer FAA inspectors because of budget cuts, things like this are less likely to be found in time.  ATC is the same issue.  There have been five recent incidents that indicate lax management there.  Is that likely to get better with budget cuts?  I doubt it.

On this board not so much. lol

Just like Anthony and Willy, he doesn't seem to have a grasp of even the basics where it comes to business, so it skews his conclusions so badly that at times he makes no sense whatsoever.

I truly enjoy talking with the likes of StCroix and Marikod where it comes to business, and maybe it's because I do it for a living that I have so little patience for people that clearly have no experience in business, but want to tell everyone else how to run their business.

I will largely agree with the left/right "cretins list" that you & inicky have compiled.

My old man was an aerospace engineer for 50 years & the firms he worked for furiously tried to prevent formations of unions, so that's a subject I know of where I speak. I will admit that I have no fucking clue about "coporation charters" & their intricacies , so I'll keep my mouth shut about that.

OTOH, I don't have to be a skunk to know they they smell, which applies to my intense hatred for that right-wing hack cunt Ayn Rand, despite ( & I know it pisses Marikod ) that I've never read a word of her literary "ouerve".

inicky, having been on the receiving end many times, I can tell you without hesitation that FAA inspectors DO NOT inspect airplanes. They inspect the paperwork involved in maintaining them. I don't have enough fingers and toes to count the number of times I've been 'ramp checked' by the feds. They want to see pilot's certificate, medical certificate, aircraft log book, inspection documents, etc. The individual airline or manufacturer does the work and documents it. The feds only want to see the paperwork. So when an airplane tries to become a convertible, it is the fault of the airline maintenance department, or a manufacturing defect. Remember the Aloha B-737 incident? Caused by corrosion not caught by the maintenance inspectors. Shitty movie was made about it, but Connie Sellica was hot as the co-pilot.

Got ramped one time in SAN, Lindberg Field, by a female who had been a secretary, (civil servant), in her previous position. She was hired as an operations inspector, and had been in that position for 14 months when I met her. She didn't know an altimeter from an aileron. Affirmative action at it's finest.

St. Croix, you are spot on in your post. I've been flying for nearly 50 years, 25 for the airline before retiring, and the most hazardous times I've experienced are the hotel shuttle van rides to and from the airport. Never put a scratch on an airplane, but I've been in three ground accidents. In one at ORD, the van driver was killed, and I got a broken arm.

I remember well the American Airlines DC-10 of which you speak. The final ruling was improper maintenance procedures. The maintenance crew used a forklift instead of a crane hoist to raise the #1, (left wing), engine in position to connect it. In doing so, they damaged one of the engine mounting fixtures. When it eventually broke, the engine actually went over the top of the wing, and departed the jet, damaging the wing, flaps, and hydraulic systems. They didn't stand much of a chance after that.

Armchair quarterbacks really piss me off when they get on TV within hours after an incident, and appear to have all the answers. Experts my ass. Jim Nance, and Arthur Allen Wolk are two of the biggest assholes in that respect. It often takes years to get to the final determination on the cause. Unfortunately, that gives the plaintiffs sufficient time to get their legal team in place.

willy, as usual, the train has left the station and you're left standing on the access ramp. Boeing has already outsourced the  structure of their B-787 Dreamliner. Sub-sections are made in Italy, Israel, Taiwan, Canada, France, Germany, even the wings are made by the Chinese. All the sub-sections are brought to Boeing, and they assembly them into a B-787.

I watched the stress test on the wing main spar failure. The wing spar broke at 154% of designed load limit. FAA requirements are that the wing withstand 150% of the load limit. Guess the Chinese did good, huh.

because, as we know, Willy is a government drone.  As such he has never operated in the "real world" and, as a result, thinks government is innately good and business is innately bad and rapacious.  I've actually talked to a few such creatures.  They mean well but they live in an alternate reality and simply don't get it.

why you think Willy is alone in being so set in his opinions it's "impossible to hold conversation" with him.  Let's also include in that crowd loonies like snow, cartman, captain oblivious, nugay and, of course dumba than a bag of hammers.  Meinarche, OTOH, gets a pass because he's more amusing, less nasty and more obviously just nuts-o.

to list some of the lefties and didn't want to deny you the pleasure.  It's lonely in the middle.  Say, that reminds me, whatever happend to F_U?  My theory is he got so far up snow's ass he simply got lost.  As for AF, I find he's making a lot of sense these days, which will probably cause you to conclude I've become an anarchist.  

inicky, you bring up some very good points. Undoubtedly, there needs to be an increase in the number of air traffic controllers, and their work schedules are in drastic need of revision. Fatigue is a common thread in most, but not all, of the controller incidents. In any vocation, there are a few bad apples, but in the ATC business, they are soon weeded out.

There are some government agencies that should not see budget cuts. Those primarily responsible for the safety of the traveling public, for example, the FAA. I have many friends that work for the FAA in various positions, and they all agree that their budget is insufficient for them to properly do their job. e.g., the FSDO, (Flight Standards District Office), responsible for north Jersey, northeastern PA, Newark aitport, etc., had 21 operations inspectors 6 years ago. Now, there are 8. Retirements, transfers, long term sick leaves, terminations, have left the remaining inspectors cut to the bone. No chance for replacements under the current funding either. Yet, the feds recently hired 1,800 new IRS employees. Go figure.

Airline maintenance? It is often sub-contracted out to third parties that have minimal FAA supervision. Think about this. The next time you fly, the jet you are boarding was more than likely maintained by the lowest bidder on the contract. Many of them are not even in the USA.


Perfect example for you. The last company I flew for, gave a $300 million contract to Israeli Aircraft Industries to modify the DC-8-61's to accept newer, more fuel efficient engines. This involved modifying the engine mounting system, the pylon mount, and wing leading edges. When the first aircraft was returned, N841AX, our inspectors found that 15% of the fasteners holding the wing leading edge in place, had no nutplates. The screws were fucking glued in place. Wings develop zero lift when the leading edge falls off.

and would love to hear any other ideas you have on how he can improve.

In the very text of the "article", and I use the term article very loosely here, the author even admits that his numbers are off by more than a factor of two, but does this stop Willy from posting this link again, even after it was debunked? of course not, Willy doesn't give two shits about the truth.

But do you think things will be better if there are fewer inspectors and the airlines know they can skirt the rules?  What about having fewer ATC people?  Would that be a good thing, too?  I'm not trying to be snide.  It's a serious question.  I think the ATC issue could be the more serioius one, and there's been a cascade of incidents recently including the one involving the plane carrying the First Lady, the controller who was watching a movie, a couple of sleeping controllers and the guy in NJ who was talking on his cell phone and let a small plane crash into a helicopter over the Hudson last year or the year before.
On top of that, according to a former FAA inspector, the budget cuts are delaying installation of a new ATC system that would automate much of this.

There are some things you don't have to sample to know they suck.  It's possible to read reviews, talk to people who've read something and get a pretty good idea.  It does not mean you then have no basis to comment on them.  For example, I don't need to read "Mein Kampf" to know it's poison.  I don't need to read the Bible to know it's mystical gibberish.  And so on.